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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Maikimaik.1974 said:So apparently I'm not a veteran because I'm not an AP hunter, although I've been playing nearly every single day since release. Ok.

I’m not an AP hunter either. Just playing the game brings AP over time.

But not 15 THOUSAND AP. 15.000. Do you realize how much that is?

Title states "Veteran Reward System".

I don't chase achievement. I play the game, and after 6 years I have like 24k just for participating. It's doable, just takes time.

Then you most likely play the game differently than most other players. I've been playing for 6 years as well, and I just recently reached the 9.000 AP mark.You have a pretty weird understanding of "veteran player".

I play the game and that's it... hardly consider that weird...

I created achievement "milestones" for the purpose of this suggestion. I needed a clear way to differentiate between new players, ultra casual players and veteran players.

Elitism at its finest up here ^^I'm a veteran and I disagree with you.For me everyone is equal and I don't need to be extra rewarded for being what more "loyal"?!

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What percentage of accounts have 15K AP? Of those, how many were created around launch?

What percentage of accounts have 24K AP? Of those, how many were created around launch?

Certainly this is information that the OP can get a hold of if they’re shrugging these off as nothing for veteran players.

It’s also coming across that a player who has played consistently since launch with 10K AP who doesn’t chase AP is less of a veteran player than someone with 15K AP who has played inconsistently over the last three years who chases AP.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:What percentage of accounts have 15K AP? Of those, how many were created around launch?

What percentage of accounts have 24K AP? Of those, how many were created around launch?

Certainly this is information that the OP can get a hold of if they’re shrugging these off as nothing for veteran players.

It’s also coming across that a player who has played consistently since launch with 10K AP who doesn’t chase AP is less of a veteran player than someone with 15K AP who has played inconsistently over the last three years who chases AP.

And exactly why this proposed system by the OP is terribad.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Biff.5312" said:

Do you have a better idea in mind to increase retention for veteran players?

Retaining committed players is not and has not been a problem for Anet. They would focus far more on getting new players and keeping new players interested for more than a few hours. MMOs in general tend to attract a new player who tries it out for a few levels, then quits. I guarantee they are losing FAR more new players than 'veterans'. So why should they even worry about this?

“We’re honored to share this journey with over 11 million players”

... There were over 11,000,000 accounts created since launch. There are not 11,000,000 players currently playing. I don’t know the monthly concurrency numbers, but I know for a fact that a mmo business looks for ideas to increase concurrency numbers, and somewhere in that 11,000,000 are gw2 vets...

Yes, a business looks to add new customers, but they also work to keep current customers too... that’s how businesses operate, pay the employees and stay in business. Keep that in mind.

10,000,000 of those accounts probably belong to me and my wife. Accounts created don't equal players. lol

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Veteran player retention is important folks. I can guarantee there is a decent sized drop off of older players, and incentives to keep those players logging in are important from many different angles.

Yes player retention is important. If they made completing a raid wing a requirement for being a veteran player, after the first raid didn't even appear for 3.5 years after launch, I'd feel completely disenfranchised. That's the kind of thing that drives people away from games.

The small percentage of people that enjoy or are okay with raiding would possibly be okay with it. I strongly suspect you'd kitten off more people than help retain player.

I've done almost everything on that list except complete a raid wing. So no, that wouldn't retain me. It would do more to drive me away.

I have great news for you my friend! Read and be absolutely amazed AND astonished!

"Alternative milestones based off of feedback...

Base requirements that need to be met to unlock the veteran reward system AND a core item vendor...15k APCore Map CompletionCore Personal Story CompletionParticipated in all Core Map Meta Events

To unlock SPvP items from vendorRank 80

To unlock WvW Items from vendorRank 500 in WvW

To unlock Dungeon items from vendorDungeon Master Achievement (Complete 8 explorable dungeons.)

To unlock Raid Items from vendorComplete each Raid Wing

To unlock Fractal items from vendorFractal Initiate (Complete each fractal scale from 1 to 25.)Fractal Adept (Complete each fractal scale from 26 to 50.)Fractal Expert (Complete each fractal scale from 51 to 75.)Fractal Master (Complete each fractal scale from 76 to 100.)

To unlock HoT items from vendorFull Map CompletionHoT personal story completionComplete all Meta Events

To unlock PoF items from vendorFull Map CompletionPoF personal story completion
)"

And there ya have it!

This would be better for sure. Every time a reward is locked behind raids, it still annoys me, because I don't enjoy raiding. I could raid. I'm perfectly capable. I just don't enjoy coordinating with 9 people. That is my casual guild mostly isn't interested in it, and I'm not a huge fan of pugging anything.

One other thing. There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway. You can get really cool ascended armor sets from PvP for example, by PvPing. You can get specific ascended jewelry from completing dungeon weapons and armor collections. You can get specific armor skins unlocked by getting achievement points.

Seems to me what you're asking for is already in the game, all over the place.

So how is what you're asking for different from what's already there?

I agree about the raid stuff.

The suggestion tackles a number of different things...
  • It adds more reward hook incentives to play the game for the veteran class, that has already been there and done that many times over.
  • This can be another tool in the dev toolbox to increase retention, content replayability and provide more value to veterans for participating.
  • It provides dedicated veterans an alternative path to earn "stuff" that is "locked behind" X, and an optional path to earning supplemental currency if the veteran chooses.
  • Chasing, and grinding out, specific currencies can be fatiguing at times and not really fun (the devs were aware of this and made improvements to HoT rewards as a result. A video statement following the increased rewards was something like this... "improved the rewards to value player time"... So it wouldn't be out of that line of thinking to toss a bone to veterans by letting them play more of what they like while lessening similar thoughts and feelings to this... "Every time a reward is locked behind" (----------) ", it still annoys me"
  • The reward design provides veterans a cleaner, and sensible, way to exchange one currency for another. Similar to these really neat QoL items the devs created for us...
    . This was also a really awesome and fun reward feature from black lion chests...
  • "There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway"... That is correct, but let's think about it from a different angle... I’m sure there are a lot of veterans who say this at various times… "Every time a" (currency or item) "is locked behind" (----------), it still annoys me". Especially when those veterans may be logging in the game daily and dread the thought of having to repeat the same content they may not like over and over and over… while they are sitting on tons of X currency but not enough of Y currency to get Z item. Again, these were really super QoL items
    and
    , and the idea just expands on those by providing a means for veterans to earn a universal currency that can be exchanged or traded in for something…

… I've merely been looking at ways to enhance the experience of veterans who have remained dedicated to the game. Veterans are very important, not only as new player helpers, but as community leaders and customers who contribute to the overall health of the game. The reward designs are constantly encouraging players to repeat content so it's easy for veteran players to suffer from a shattered morale... I know Anet is always looking for different methods to keep the game exciting for us long term dedicated players too, and I don't see anything wrong with a reward boost aimed at players who have stuck with the game... Ill-conceived scheme this was not. Nor a plan to get "free stuff" as I was accused of earlier. It's about looking at ways to improve the experience for a class of players and to keep them happily logging in and happily participating.

Look I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm saying that this sort of thing is already in the game from my point of view. That is, I have plenty to work on. In a sense, achievement points are already sort of what you're saying. That is, you get them and you get rewards for them by doing other content. You want to add another layer to that and I have nothing wrong with that.

Will that cause more players to stay longer term? Maybe some. But I'm not sure it'll have the affects you think it will have. I'm not against it. I can always enjoy more stuff. However, what you're talking about is exactly how I'm playing the game already.

I'm not against the idea. But I'm not sure this is the reason why most people who leave, leave.

I think more important than this is that the game finds better ways of teaching itself. Right now, it depends heavily on the community for that.

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@"Ayrilana.1396" said:What percentage of accounts have 15K AP? Of those, how many were created around launch?

What percentage of accounts have 24K AP? Of those, how many were created around launch?

Certainly this is information that the OP can get a hold of if they’re shrugging these off as nothing for veteran players.

It’s also coming across that a player who has played consistently since launch with 10K AP who doesn’t chase AP is less of a veteran player than someone with 15K AP who has played inconsistently over the last three years who chases AP.

Just wondering here... Do some of you peeps not know how to present an idea? If your goal was to present a new reward system for wvw or spvp for senior players then you would use ranks and requirements to present some idea of what you are thinking... Seriously, enough with the "oh so i'm not a veteran in your eyes" QQ you "elitist" swagger person...

See what the devs did here? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistforged_Triumphant_Hero%27s_armor

"In order to be able to purchase each ascended piece, the equivalent Triumphant Hero's armor piece must have already been unlocked. Additionally, players require the following WvW rank depending on the piece"...

I didn't QQ about having spent a ton of time in wvw and not having the ranks to get gear, I just kept playing... And I certainly didn't accuse the devs of being "elitists" for requiring X rank to be eligible to get X gear...

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Veteran player retention is important folks. I can guarantee there is a decent sized drop off of older players, and incentives to keep those players logging in are important from many different angles.

Yes player retention is important. If they made completing a raid wing a requirement for being a veteran player, after the first raid didn't even appear for 3.5 years after launch, I'd feel completely disenfranchised. That's the kind of thing that drives people away from games.

The small percentage of people that enjoy or are okay with raiding would possibly be okay with it. I strongly suspect you'd kitten off more people than help retain player.

I've done almost everything on that list except complete a raid wing. So no, that wouldn't retain me. It would do more to drive me away.

I have great news for you my friend! Read and be absolutely amazed AND astonished!

"Alternative milestones based off of feedback...

Base requirements that need to be met to unlock the veteran reward system AND a core item vendor...15k APCore Map CompletionCore Personal Story CompletionParticipated in all Core Map Meta Events

To unlock SPvP items from vendorRank 80

To unlock WvW Items from vendorRank 500 in WvW

To unlock Dungeon items from vendorDungeon Master Achievement (Complete 8 explorable dungeons.)

To unlock Raid Items from vendorComplete each Raid Wing

To unlock Fractal items from vendorFractal Initiate (Complete each fractal scale from 1 to 25.)Fractal Adept (Complete each fractal scale from 26 to 50.)Fractal Expert (Complete each fractal scale from 51 to 75.)Fractal Master (Complete each fractal scale from 76 to 100.)

To unlock HoT items from vendorFull Map CompletionHoT personal story completionComplete all Meta Events

To unlock PoF items from vendorFull Map CompletionPoF personal story completion
)"

And there ya have it!

This would be better for sure. Every time a reward is locked behind raids, it still annoys me, because I don't enjoy raiding. I could raid. I'm perfectly capable. I just don't enjoy coordinating with 9 people. That is my casual guild mostly isn't interested in it, and I'm not a huge fan of pugging anything.

One other thing. There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway. You can get really cool ascended armor sets from PvP for example, by PvPing. You can get specific ascended jewelry from completing dungeon weapons and armor collections. You can get specific armor skins unlocked by getting achievement points.

Seems to me what you're asking for is already in the game, all over the place.

So how is what you're asking for different from what's already there?

I agree about the raid stuff.

The suggestion tackles a number of different things...
  • It adds more reward hook incentives to play the game for the veteran class, that has already been there and done that many times over.
  • This can be another tool in the dev toolbox to increase retention, content replayability and provide more value to veterans for participating.
  • It provides dedicated veterans an alternative path to earn "stuff" that is "locked behind" X, and an optional path to earning supplemental currency if the veteran chooses.
  • Chasing, and grinding out, specific currencies can be fatiguing at times and not really fun (the devs were aware of this and made improvements to HoT rewards as a result. A video statement following the increased rewards was something like this... "improved the rewards to value player time"... So it wouldn't be out of that line of thinking to toss a bone to veterans by letting them play more of what they like while lessening similar thoughts and feelings to this... "Every time a reward is locked behind" (----------) ", it still annoys me"
  • The reward design provides veterans a cleaner, and sensible, way to exchange one currency for another. Similar to these really neat QoL items the devs created for us...
    . This was also a really awesome and fun reward feature from black lion chests...
  • "There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway"... That is correct, but let's think about it from a different angle... I’m sure there are a lot of veterans who say this at various times… "Every time a" (currency or item) "is locked behind" (----------), it still annoys me". Especially when those veterans may be logging in the game daily and dread the thought of having to repeat the same content they may not like over and over and over… while they are sitting on tons of X currency but not enough of Y currency to get Z item. Again, these were really super QoL items
    and
    , and the idea just expands on those by providing a means for veterans to earn a universal currency that can be exchanged or traded in for something…

… I've merely been looking at ways to enhance the experience of veterans who have remained dedicated to the game. Veterans are very important, not only as new player helpers, but as community leaders and customers who contribute to the overall health of the game. The reward designs are constantly encouraging players to repeat content so it's easy for veteran players to suffer from a shattered morale... I know Anet is always looking for different methods to keep the game exciting for us long term dedicated players too, and I don't see anything wrong with a reward boost aimed at players who have stuck with the game... Ill-conceived scheme this was not. Nor a plan to get "free stuff" as I was accused of earlier. It's about looking at ways to improve the experience for a class of players and to keep them happily logging in and happily participating.

Look I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm saying that this sort of thing is already in the game from my point of view. That is, I have plenty to work on. In a sense, achievement points are already sort of what you're saying. That is, you get them and you get rewards for them by doing other content. You want to add another layer to that and I have nothing wrong with that.

Will that cause more players to stay longer term? Maybe some. But I'm not sure it'll have the affects you think it will have. I'm not against it. I can always enjoy more stuff. However, what you're talking about is exactly how I'm playing the game already.

I'm not against the idea. But I'm not sure this is the reason why most people who leave, leave.

I think more important than this is that the game finds better ways of teaching itself. Right now, it depends heavily on the community for that.

I'm feeling like you, and others, would truly fall in love with the idea if it were ever implemented!

I agree there could be more teaching tools, but we would always still need our new player helpers regardless...

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Veteran player retention is important folks. I can guarantee there is a decent sized drop off of older players, and incentives to keep those players logging in are important from many different angles.

Yes player retention is important. If they made completing a raid wing a requirement for being a veteran player, after the first raid didn't even appear for 3.5 years after launch, I'd feel completely disenfranchised. That's the kind of thing that drives people away from games.

The small percentage of people that enjoy or are okay with raiding would possibly be okay with it. I strongly suspect you'd kitten off more people than help retain player.

I've done almost everything on that list except complete a raid wing. So no, that wouldn't retain me. It would do more to drive me away.

I have great news for you my friend! Read and be absolutely amazed AND astonished!

"Alternative milestones based off of feedback...

Base requirements that need to be met to unlock the veteran reward system AND a core item vendor...15k APCore Map CompletionCore Personal Story CompletionParticipated in all Core Map Meta Events

To unlock SPvP items from vendorRank 80

To unlock WvW Items from vendorRank 500 in WvW

To unlock Dungeon items from vendorDungeon Master Achievement (Complete 8 explorable dungeons.)

To unlock Raid Items from vendorComplete each Raid Wing

To unlock Fractal items from vendorFractal Initiate (Complete each fractal scale from 1 to 25.)Fractal Adept (Complete each fractal scale from 26 to 50.)Fractal Expert (Complete each fractal scale from 51 to 75.)Fractal Master (Complete each fractal scale from 76 to 100.)

To unlock HoT items from vendorFull Map CompletionHoT personal story completionComplete all Meta Events

To unlock PoF items from vendorFull Map CompletionPoF personal story completion
)"

And there ya have it!

This would be better for sure. Every time a reward is locked behind raids, it still annoys me, because I don't enjoy raiding. I could raid. I'm perfectly capable. I just don't enjoy coordinating with 9 people. That is my casual guild mostly isn't interested in it, and I'm not a huge fan of pugging anything.

One other thing. There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway. You can get really cool ascended armor sets from PvP for example, by PvPing. You can get specific ascended jewelry from completing dungeon weapons and armor collections. You can get specific armor skins unlocked by getting achievement points.

Seems to me what you're asking for is already in the game, all over the place.

So how is what you're asking for different from what's already there?

I agree about the raid stuff.

The suggestion tackles a number of different things...
  • It adds more reward hook incentives to play the game for the veteran class, that has already been there and done that many times over.
  • This can be another tool in the dev toolbox to increase retention, content replayability and provide more value to veterans for participating.
  • It provides dedicated veterans an alternative path to earn "stuff" that is "locked behind" X, and an optional path to earning supplemental currency if the veteran chooses.
  • Chasing, and grinding out, specific currencies can be fatiguing at times and not really fun (the devs were aware of this and made improvements to HoT rewards as a result. A video statement following the increased rewards was something like this... "improved the rewards to value player time"... So it wouldn't be out of that line of thinking to toss a bone to veterans by letting them play more of what they like while lessening similar thoughts and feelings to this... "Every time a reward is locked behind" (----------) ", it still annoys me"
  • The reward design provides veterans a cleaner, and sensible, way to exchange one currency for another. Similar to these really neat QoL items the devs created for us...
    . This was also a really awesome and fun reward feature from black lion chests...
  • "There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway"... That is correct, but let's think about it from a different angle... I’m sure there are a lot of veterans who say this at various times… "Every time a" (currency or item) "is locked behind" (----------), it still annoys me". Especially when those veterans may be logging in the game daily and dread the thought of having to repeat the same content they may not like over and over and over… while they are sitting on tons of X currency but not enough of Y currency to get Z item. Again, these were really super QoL items
    and
    , and the idea just expands on those by providing a means for veterans to earn a universal currency that can be exchanged or traded in for something…

… I've merely been looking at ways to enhance the experience of veterans who have remained dedicated to the game. Veterans are very important, not only as new player helpers, but as community leaders and customers who contribute to the overall health of the game. The reward designs are constantly encouraging players to repeat content so it's easy for veteran players to suffer from a shattered morale... I know Anet is always looking for different methods to keep the game exciting for us long term dedicated players too, and I don't see anything wrong with a reward boost aimed at players who have stuck with the game... Ill-conceived scheme this was not. Nor a plan to get "free stuff" as I was accused of earlier. It's about looking at ways to improve the experience for a class of players and to keep them happily logging in and happily participating.

Look I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm saying that this sort of thing is already in the game from my point of view. That is, I have plenty to work on. In a sense, achievement points are already sort of what you're saying. That is, you get them and you get rewards for them by doing other content. You want to add another layer to that and I have nothing wrong with that.

Will that cause more players to stay longer term? Maybe some. But I'm not sure it'll have the affects you think it will have. I'm not against it. I can always enjoy more stuff. However, what you're talking about is exactly how I'm playing the game already.

I'm not against the idea. But I'm not sure this is the reason why most people who leave, leave.

I think more important than this is that the game finds better ways of teaching itself. Right now, it depends heavily on the community for that.

I'm feeling like you, and others, would truly fall in love with the idea if it were ever implemented!

I agree there could be more teaching tools, but we would always still need our new player helpers regardless...

I would not fall in love with it, guaranteed. I don't fall in love with rewards. It's not what I generally play for. Obviously, everyone wants more rewards. Very few people will say no to more rewards. But rewards aren't what motivates all of us.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Veteran player retention is important folks. I can guarantee there is a decent sized drop off of older players, and incentives to keep those players logging in are important from many different angles.

Yes player retention is important. If they made completing a raid wing a requirement for being a veteran player, after the first raid didn't even appear for 3.5 years after launch, I'd feel completely disenfranchised. That's the kind of thing that drives people away from games.

The small percentage of people that enjoy or are okay with raiding would possibly be okay with it. I strongly suspect you'd kitten off more people than help retain player.

I've done almost everything on that list except complete a raid wing. So no, that wouldn't retain me. It would do more to drive me away.

I have great news for you my friend! Read and be absolutely amazed AND astonished!

"Alternative milestones based off of feedback...

Base requirements that need to be met to unlock the veteran reward system AND a core item vendor...15k APCore Map CompletionCore Personal Story CompletionParticipated in all Core Map Meta Events

To unlock SPvP items from vendorRank 80

To unlock WvW Items from vendorRank 500 in WvW

To unlock Dungeon items from vendorDungeon Master Achievement (Complete 8 explorable dungeons.)

To unlock Raid Items from vendorComplete each Raid Wing

To unlock Fractal items from vendorFractal Initiate (Complete each fractal scale from 1 to 25.)Fractal Adept (Complete each fractal scale from 26 to 50.)Fractal Expert (Complete each fractal scale from 51 to 75.)Fractal Master (Complete each fractal scale from 76 to 100.)

To unlock HoT items from vendorFull Map CompletionHoT personal story completionComplete all Meta Events

To unlock PoF items from vendorFull Map CompletionPoF personal story completion
)"

And there ya have it!

This would be better for sure. Every time a reward is locked behind raids, it still annoys me, because I don't enjoy raiding. I could raid. I'm perfectly capable. I just don't enjoy coordinating with 9 people. That is my casual guild mostly isn't interested in it, and I'm not a huge fan of pugging anything.

One other thing. There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway. You can get really cool ascended armor sets from PvP for example, by PvPing. You can get specific ascended jewelry from completing dungeon weapons and armor collections. You can get specific armor skins unlocked by getting achievement points.

Seems to me what you're asking for is already in the game, all over the place.

So how is what you're asking for different from what's already there?

I agree about the raid stuff.

The suggestion tackles a number of different things...
  • It adds more reward hook incentives to play the game for the veteran class, that has already been there and done that many times over.
  • This can be another tool in the dev toolbox to increase retention, content replayability and provide more value to veterans for participating.
  • It provides dedicated veterans an alternative path to earn "stuff" that is "locked behind" X, and an optional path to earning supplemental currency if the veteran chooses.
  • Chasing, and grinding out, specific currencies can be fatiguing at times and not really fun (the devs were aware of this and made improvements to HoT rewards as a result. A video statement following the increased rewards was something like this... "improved the rewards to value player time"... So it wouldn't be out of that line of thinking to toss a bone to veterans by letting them play more of what they like while lessening similar thoughts and feelings to this... "Every time a reward is locked behind" (----------) ", it still annoys me"
  • The reward design provides veterans a cleaner, and sensible, way to exchange one currency for another. Similar to these really neat QoL items the devs created for us...
    . This was also a really awesome and fun reward feature from black lion chests...
  • "There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway"... That is correct, but let's think about it from a different angle... I’m sure there are a lot of veterans who say this at various times… "Every time a" (currency or item) "is locked behind" (----------), it still annoys me". Especially when those veterans may be logging in the game daily and dread the thought of having to repeat the same content they may not like over and over and over… while they are sitting on tons of X currency but not enough of Y currency to get Z item. Again, these were really super QoL items
    and
    , and the idea just expands on those by providing a means for veterans to earn a universal currency that can be exchanged or traded in for something…

… I've merely been looking at ways to enhance the experience of veterans who have remained dedicated to the game. Veterans are very important, not only as new player helpers, but as community leaders and customers who contribute to the overall health of the game. The reward designs are constantly encouraging players to repeat content so it's easy for veteran players to suffer from a shattered morale... I know Anet is always looking for different methods to keep the game exciting for us long term dedicated players too, and I don't see anything wrong with a reward boost aimed at players who have stuck with the game... Ill-conceived scheme this was not. Nor a plan to get "free stuff" as I was accused of earlier. It's about looking at ways to improve the experience for a class of players and to keep them happily logging in and happily participating.

Look I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm saying that this sort of thing is already in the game from my point of view. That is, I have plenty to work on. In a sense, achievement points are already sort of what you're saying. That is, you get them and you get rewards for them by doing other content. You want to add another layer to that and I have nothing wrong with that.

Will that cause more players to stay longer term? Maybe some. But I'm not sure it'll have the affects you think it will have. I'm not against it. I can always enjoy more stuff. However, what you're talking about is exactly how I'm playing the game already.

I'm not against the idea. But I'm not sure this is the reason why most people who leave, leave.

I think more important than this is that the game finds better ways of teaching itself. Right now, it depends heavily on the community for that.

I'm feeling like you, and others, would truly fall in love with the idea if it were ever implemented!

I agree there could be more teaching tools, but we would always still need our new player helpers regardless...

I would not fall in love with it, guaranteed. I don't fall in love with rewards. It's not what I generally play for. Obviously, everyone wants more rewards. Very few people will say no to more rewards. But rewards aren't what motivates all of us.

Ok, but you might fall in love with being able to exchange "prestige coins" for other currency you may need at some point... never know!

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You can already get extra rewards if you have been playing for a while. You get birthday gifts depending on how many years you've had characters for. Long time players have more magic find, karma gain, coin gain and exp gain than new players. Players who have been playing lots of LW3 and 4 had the opportunity to boost their rewards with karmic retribution and exp empowerments. Fractals have their own empowerment system for the hardcore fractal runners, so they can boost their reward gain. WvW gives extra pips to players of higher rank. There are probably more examples that I can't think off the top of my head right now. I believe that there are enough incentives to keep playing already.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:But this system would not be the answer.

and how do you know that?

For the reasons I already mentioned in an earlier post.

Do you have a better idea in mind to increase retention for veteran players?

How about content blocks which are entertaining in their own right, and are not only driven by one-off rewards that require so much repetition that you'll have become sick of doing something before even approaching completion of the achievements? (drops mic)

Given player psychology, trying to drive an activity by a reward more then enjoyment of said activity will place players in a mind set of "its a job task". And result of which drives them to find the most efficient path possible, so they'll have to interface with it the least amount possible.

Looking at WvW as an Example, "hardcore" WvW players still spend most of their time there because they actually enjoy what little the game mode offers. This was even more true prior to Skirmish rewards, given it actually COSTED you coin and materials to WvW in any competitive capacity. sPvP players, for all their toxicity, are there because they like what the game mode does, rather then the rewards it gives (which don't even do anything functional for them).

Its only in Open World, Raids, Fractals, etc, that rewards are the focal point, because their experience is not only static, but can be mastered to the point of becoming trivial. Hence the need for repetition to pad itself, as the activities on the maps become ever more simplified and streamlined. Before HOT people wanted more large scale meta events where tons of players could be involved to solve a problem. In a Post-POF game, people openly and loudly complain about tasks which can't be completed casually by oneself, regardless of how much easier that task is with as little as 2-3 people cooperating in ad-hoc, or even solo with a competent build.

Reward cycles are the bane of a good retention system...... but its relied upon because its the only thing cheap and fast enough to met ever increasing demands. It is, for all intents and purpose, a system of addiction. Driven not by desire, but compulsion. And when that compulsion hits its breaking point, both the player and the system go into existential crisis. Making matters worse, most think the solution to that problem is to double down and reestablish the addiction cycle; when its actually making the entire problem worse the next time it breaks.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Veteran player retention is important folks. I can guarantee there is a decent sized drop off of older players, and incentives to keep those players logging in are important from many different angles.

Yes player retention is important. If they made completing a raid wing a requirement for being a veteran player, after the first raid didn't even appear for 3.5 years after launch, I'd feel completely disenfranchised. That's the kind of thing that drives people away from games.

The small percentage of people that enjoy or are okay with raiding would possibly be okay with it. I strongly suspect you'd kitten off more people than help retain player.

I've done almost everything on that list except complete a raid wing. So no, that wouldn't retain me. It would do more to drive me away.

I have great news for you my friend! Read and be absolutely amazed AND astonished!

"Alternative milestones based off of feedback...

Base requirements that need to be met to unlock the veteran reward system AND a core item vendor...15k APCore Map CompletionCore Personal Story CompletionParticipated in all Core Map Meta Events

To unlock SPvP items from vendorRank 80

To unlock WvW Items from vendorRank 500 in WvW

To unlock Dungeon items from vendorDungeon Master Achievement (Complete 8 explorable dungeons.)

To unlock Raid Items from vendorComplete each Raid Wing

To unlock Fractal items from vendorFractal Initiate (Complete each fractal scale from 1 to 25.)Fractal Adept (Complete each fractal scale from 26 to 50.)Fractal Expert (Complete each fractal scale from 51 to 75.)Fractal Master (Complete each fractal scale from 76 to 100.)

To unlock HoT items from vendorFull Map CompletionHoT personal story completionComplete all Meta Events

To unlock PoF items from vendorFull Map CompletionPoF personal story completion
)"

And there ya have it!

This would be better for sure. Every time a reward is locked behind raids, it still annoys me, because I don't enjoy raiding. I could raid. I'm perfectly capable. I just don't enjoy coordinating with 9 people. That is my casual guild mostly isn't interested in it, and I'm not a huge fan of pugging anything.

One other thing. There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway. You can get really cool ascended armor sets from PvP for example, by PvPing. You can get specific ascended jewelry from completing dungeon weapons and armor collections. You can get specific armor skins unlocked by getting achievement points.

Seems to me what you're asking for is already in the game, all over the place.

So how is what you're asking for different from what's already there?

I agree about the raid stuff.

The suggestion tackles a number of different things...
  • It adds more reward hook incentives to play the game for the veteran class, that has already been there and done that many times over.
  • This can be another tool in the dev toolbox to increase retention, content replayability and provide more value to veterans for participating.
  • It provides dedicated veterans an alternative path to earn "stuff" that is "locked behind" X, and an optional path to earning supplemental currency if the veteran chooses.
  • Chasing, and grinding out, specific currencies can be fatiguing at times and not really fun (the devs were aware of this and made improvements to HoT rewards as a result. A video statement following the increased rewards was something like this... "improved the rewards to value player time"... So it wouldn't be out of that line of thinking to toss a bone to veterans by letting them play more of what they like while lessening similar thoughts and feelings to this... "Every time a reward is locked behind" (----------) ", it still annoys me"
  • The reward design provides veterans a cleaner, and sensible, way to exchange one currency for another. Similar to these really neat QoL items the devs created for us...
    . This was also a really awesome and fun reward feature from black lion chests...
  • "There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway"... That is correct, but let's think about it from a different angle... I’m sure there are a lot of veterans who say this at various times… "Every time a" (currency or item) "is locked behind" (----------), it still annoys me". Especially when those veterans may be logging in the game daily and dread the thought of having to repeat the same content they may not like over and over and over… while they are sitting on tons of X currency but not enough of Y currency to get Z item. Again, these were really super QoL items
    and
    , and the idea just expands on those by providing a means for veterans to earn a universal currency that can be exchanged or traded in for something…

… I've merely been looking at ways to enhance the experience of veterans who have remained dedicated to the game. Veterans are very important, not only as new player helpers, but as community leaders and customers who contribute to the overall health of the game. The reward designs are constantly encouraging players to repeat content so it's easy for veteran players to suffer from a shattered morale... I know Anet is always looking for different methods to keep the game exciting for us long term dedicated players too, and I don't see anything wrong with a reward boost aimed at players who have stuck with the game... Ill-conceived scheme this was not. Nor a plan to get "free stuff" as I was accused of earlier. It's about looking at ways to improve the experience for a class of players and to keep them happily logging in and happily participating.

Look I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm saying that this sort of thing is already in the game from my point of view. That is, I have plenty to work on. In a sense, achievement points are already sort of what you're saying. That is, you get them and you get rewards for them by doing other content. You want to add another layer to that and I have nothing wrong with that.

Will that cause more players to stay longer term? Maybe some. But I'm not sure it'll have the affects you think it will have. I'm not against it. I can always enjoy more stuff. However, what you're talking about is exactly how I'm playing the game already.

I'm not against the idea. But I'm not sure this is the reason why most people who leave, leave.

I think more important than this is that the game finds better ways of teaching itself. Right now, it depends heavily on the community for that.

I'm feeling like you, and others, would truly fall in love with the idea if it were ever implemented!

I agree there could be more teaching tools, but we would always still need our new player helpers regardless...

I would not fall in love with it, guaranteed. I don't fall in love with rewards. It's not what I generally play for. Obviously, everyone wants more rewards. Very few people will say no to more rewards. But rewards aren't what motivates all of us.

Same for me. It would do nothing to motivate me or factor in if or how long I play.

Ive sadly seen a lot of long term players leave the game and none of them cite rewards as a problem or a factor. There are plenty of other issues that are above rewards which determine retention

  • game performance (constant disconnects, low fps, ridiculous effects blocking visibility)
  • Difficulty ( problematic to solve)
  • Quality of content and story (my issue at the moment)
  • neglevtion of game mode (wvw and spvp)
  • Perception of balance

I would pick these 5 as more important for retention than rewards. We are well rewarded in this game in my opinion. People dont move to Teso or FF or any other game because they will be better rewarded, they move for either a new experience or to solve the above issues.

Im obv not saying rewards arent important as new rewards bolster new content, but a reward track for vets as a shortcut for older rewards is not high up in determing retention

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Veteran player retention is important folks. I can guarantee there is a decent sized drop off of older players, and incentives to keep those players logging in are important from many different angles.

Yes player retention is important. If they made completing a raid wing a requirement for being a veteran player, after the first raid didn't even appear for 3.5 years after launch, I'd feel completely disenfranchised. That's the kind of thing that drives people away from games.

The small percentage of people that enjoy or are okay with raiding would possibly be okay with it. I strongly suspect you'd kitten off more people than help retain player.

I've done almost everything on that list except complete a raid wing. So no, that wouldn't retain me. It would do more to drive me away.

I have great news for you my friend! Read and be absolutely amazed AND astonished!

"Alternative milestones based off of feedback...

Base requirements that need to be met to unlock the veteran reward system AND a core item vendor...15k APCore Map CompletionCore Personal Story CompletionParticipated in all Core Map Meta Events

To unlock SPvP items from vendorRank 80

To unlock WvW Items from vendorRank 500 in WvW

To unlock Dungeon items from vendorDungeon Master Achievement (Complete 8 explorable dungeons.)

To unlock Raid Items from vendorComplete each Raid Wing

To unlock Fractal items from vendorFractal Initiate (Complete each fractal scale from 1 to 25.)Fractal Adept (Complete each fractal scale from 26 to 50.)Fractal Expert (Complete each fractal scale from 51 to 75.)Fractal Master (Complete each fractal scale from 76 to 100.)

To unlock HoT items from vendorFull Map CompletionHoT personal story completionComplete all Meta Events

To unlock PoF items from vendorFull Map CompletionPoF personal story completion
)"

And there ya have it!

This would be better for sure. Every time a reward is locked behind raids, it still annoys me, because I don't enjoy raiding. I could raid. I'm perfectly capable. I just don't enjoy coordinating with 9 people. That is my casual guild mostly isn't interested in it, and I'm not a huge fan of pugging anything.

One other thing. There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway. You can get really cool ascended armor sets from PvP for example, by PvPing. You can get specific ascended jewelry from completing dungeon weapons and armor collections. You can get specific armor skins unlocked by getting achievement points.

Seems to me what you're asking for is already in the game, all over the place.

So how is what you're asking for different from what's already there?

I agree about the raid stuff.

The suggestion tackles a number of different things...
  • It adds more reward hook incentives to play the game for the veteran class, that has already been there and done that many times over.
  • This can be another tool in the dev toolbox to increase retention, content replayability and provide more value to veterans for participating.
  • It provides dedicated veterans an alternative path to earn "stuff" that is "locked behind" X, and an optional path to earning supplemental currency if the veteran chooses.
  • Chasing, and grinding out, specific currencies can be fatiguing at times and not really fun (the devs were aware of this and made improvements to HoT rewards as a result. A video statement following the increased rewards was something like this... "improved the rewards to value player time"... So it wouldn't be out of that line of thinking to toss a bone to veterans by letting them play more of what they like while lessening similar thoughts and feelings to this... "Every time a reward is locked behind" (----------) ", it still annoys me"
  • The reward design provides veterans a cleaner, and sensible, way to exchange one currency for another. Similar to these really neat QoL items the devs created for us...
    . This was also a really awesome and fun reward feature from black lion chests...
  • "There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway"... That is correct, but let's think about it from a different angle... I’m sure there are a lot of veterans who say this at various times… "Every time a" (currency or item) "is locked behind" (----------), it still annoys me". Especially when those veterans may be logging in the game daily and dread the thought of having to repeat the same content they may not like over and over and over… while they are sitting on tons of X currency but not enough of Y currency to get Z item. Again, these were really super QoL items
    and
    , and the idea just expands on those by providing a means for veterans to earn a universal currency that can be exchanged or traded in for something…

… I've merely been looking at ways to enhance the experience of veterans who have remained dedicated to the game. Veterans are very important, not only as new player helpers, but as community leaders and customers who contribute to the overall health of the game. The reward designs are constantly encouraging players to repeat content so it's easy for veteran players to suffer from a shattered morale... I know Anet is always looking for different methods to keep the game exciting for us long term dedicated players too, and I don't see anything wrong with a reward boost aimed at players who have stuck with the game... Ill-conceived scheme this was not. Nor a plan to get "free stuff" as I was accused of earlier. It's about looking at ways to improve the experience for a class of players and to keep them happily logging in and happily participating.

Look I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm saying that this sort of thing is already in the game from my point of view. That is, I have plenty to work on. In a sense, achievement points are already sort of what you're saying. That is, you get them and you get rewards for them by doing other content. You want to add another layer to that and I have nothing wrong with that.

Will that cause more players to stay longer term? Maybe some. But I'm not sure it'll have the affects you think it will have. I'm not against it. I can always enjoy more stuff. However, what you're talking about is exactly how I'm playing the game already.

I'm not against the idea. But I'm not sure this is the reason why most people who leave, leave.

I think more important than this is that the game finds better ways of teaching itself. Right now, it depends heavily on the community for that.

I'm feeling like you, and others, would truly fall in love with the idea if it were ever implemented!

I agree there could be more teaching tools, but we would always still need our new player helpers regardless...

I would not fall in love with it, guaranteed. I don't fall in love with rewards. It's not what I generally play for. Obviously, everyone wants more rewards. Very few people will say no to more rewards. But rewards aren't what motivates all of us.

Same for me. It would do nothing to motivate me or factor in if or how long I play.

Ive sadly seen a lot of long term players leave the game and none of them cite rewards as a problem or a factor. There are plenty of other issues that are above rewards which determine retention
  • game performance (constant disconnects, low fps, ridiculous effects blocking visibility)
  • Difficulty ( problematic to solve)
  • Quality of content and story (my issue at the moment)
  • neglevtion of game mode (wvw and spvp)
  • Perception of balance

I would pick these 5 as more important for retention than rewards. We are well rewarded in this game in my opinion. People dont move to Teso or FF or any other game because they will be better rewarded, they move for either a new experience or to solve the above issues.

Im obv not saying rewards arent important as new rewards bolster new content, but a reward track for vets as a shortcut for older rewards is not high up in determing retention

@Swagger.1459 said:Veteran player retention is important folks. I can guarantee there is a decent sized drop off of older players, and incentives to keep those players logging in are important from many different angles.

Yes player retention is important. If they made completing a raid wing a requirement for being a veteran player, after the first raid didn't even appear for 3.5 years after launch, I'd feel completely disenfranchised. That's the kind of thing that drives people away from games.

The small percentage of people that enjoy or are okay with raiding would possibly be okay with it. I strongly suspect you'd kitten off more people than help retain player.

I've done almost everything on that list except complete a raid wing. So no, that wouldn't retain me. It would do more to drive me away.

I have great news for you my friend! Read and be absolutely amazed AND astonished!

"Alternative milestones based off of feedback...

Base requirements that need to be met to unlock the veteran reward system AND a core item vendor...15k APCore Map CompletionCore Personal Story CompletionParticipated in all Core Map Meta Events

To unlock SPvP items from vendorRank 80

To unlock WvW Items from vendorRank 500 in WvW

To unlock Dungeon items from vendorDungeon Master Achievement (Complete 8 explorable dungeons.)

To unlock Raid Items from vendorComplete each Raid Wing

To unlock Fractal items from vendorFractal Initiate (Complete each fractal scale from 1 to 25.)Fractal Adept (Complete each fractal scale from 26 to 50.)Fractal Expert (Complete each fractal scale from 51 to 75.)Fractal Master (Complete each fractal scale from 76 to 100.)

To unlock HoT items from vendorFull Map CompletionHoT personal story completionComplete all Meta Events

To unlock PoF items from vendorFull Map CompletionPoF personal story completion
)"

And there ya have it!

This would be better for sure. Every time a reward is locked behind raids, it still annoys me, because I don't enjoy raiding. I could raid. I'm perfectly capable. I just don't enjoy coordinating with 9 people. That is my casual guild mostly isn't interested in it, and I'm not a huge fan of pugging anything.

One other thing. There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway. You can get really cool ascended armor sets from PvP for example, by PvPing. You can get specific ascended jewelry from completing dungeon weapons and armor collections. You can get specific armor skins unlocked by getting achievement points.

Seems to me what you're asking for is already in the game, all over the place.

So how is what you're asking for different from what's already there?

I agree about the raid stuff.

The suggestion tackles a number of different things...
  • It adds more reward hook incentives to play the game for the veteran class, that has already been there and done that many times over.
  • This can be another tool in the dev toolbox to increase retention, content replayability and provide more value to veterans for participating.
  • It provides dedicated veterans an alternative path to earn "stuff" that is "locked behind" X, and an optional path to earning supplemental currency if the veteran chooses.
  • Chasing, and grinding out, specific currencies can be fatiguing at times and not really fun (the devs were aware of this and made improvements to HoT rewards as a result. A video statement following the increased rewards was something like this... "improved the rewards to value player time"... So it wouldn't be out of that line of thinking to toss a bone to veterans by letting them play more of what they like while lessening similar thoughts and feelings to this... "Every time a reward is locked behind" (----------) ", it still annoys me"
  • The reward design provides veterans a cleaner, and sensible, way to exchange one currency for another. Similar to these really neat QoL items the devs created for us...
    . This was also a really awesome and fun reward feature from black lion chests...
  • "There are tons of rewards in this game for people who want to do specific content anyway"... That is correct, but let's think about it from a different angle... I’m sure there are a lot of veterans who say this at various times… "Every time a" (currency or item) "is locked behind" (----------), it still annoys me". Especially when those veterans may be logging in the game daily and dread the thought of having to repeat the same content they may not like over and over and over… while they are sitting on tons of X currency but not enough of Y currency to get Z item. Again, these were really super QoL items
    and
    , and the idea just expands on those by providing a means for veterans to earn a universal currency that can be exchanged or traded in for something…

… I've merely been looking at ways to enhance the experience of veterans who have remained dedicated to the game. Veterans are very important, not only as new player helpers, but as community leaders and customers who contribute to the overall health of the game. The reward designs are constantly encouraging players to repeat content so it's easy for veteran players to suffer from a shattered morale... I know Anet is always looking for different methods to keep the game exciting for us long term dedicated players too, and I don't see anything wrong with a reward boost aimed at players who have stuck with the game... Ill-conceived scheme this was not. Nor a plan to get "free stuff" as I was accused of earlier. It's about looking at ways to improve the experience for a class of players and to keep them happily logging in and happily participating.

Look I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm saying that this sort of thing is already in the game from my point of view. That is, I have plenty to work on. In a sense, achievement points are already sort of what you're saying. That is, you get them and you get rewards for them by doing other content. You want to add another layer to that and I have nothing wrong with that.

Will that cause more players to stay longer term? Maybe some. But I'm not sure it'll have the affects you think it will have. I'm not against it. I can always enjoy more stuff. However, what you're talking about is exactly how I'm playing the game already.

I'm not against the idea. But I'm not sure this is the reason why most people who leave, leave.

I think more important than this is that the game finds better ways of teaching itself. Right now, it depends heavily on the community for that.

I'm feeling like you, and others, would truly fall in love with the idea if it were ever implemented!

I agree there could be more teaching tools, but we would always still need our new player helpers regardless...

I would not fall in love with it, guaranteed. I don't fall in love with rewards. It's not what I generally play for. Obviously, everyone wants more rewards. Very few people will say no to more rewards. But rewards aren't what motivates all of us.

Same for me. It would do nothing to motivate me or factor in if or how long I play.

Ive sadly seen a lot of long term players leave the game and none of them cite rewards as a problem or a factor. There are plenty of other issues that are above rewards which determine retention
  • game performance (constant disconnects, low fps, ridiculous effects blocking visibility)
  • Difficulty ( problematic to solve)
  • Quality of content and story (my issue at the moment)
  • neglevtion of game mode (wvw and spvp)
  • Perception of balance

I would pick these 5 as more important for retention than rewards. We are well rewarded in this game in my opinion. People dont move to Teso or FF or any other game because they will be better rewarded, they move for either a new experience or to solve the above issues.

Im obv not saying rewards arent important as new rewards bolster new content, but a reward track for vets as a shortcut for older rewards is not high up in determing retention

I agree with this. I also think this is generally a game focused on open world PvE and the people who want that in a game have far less choice. As a PvPer you might be more disappointed than I am. I'm mostly happy with the game and usually that's been the case, if not always.

The thing is people are leaving ALL MMOs all the time for all the same reasons. I watch reddit and I see people leaving ESO and WOW all the time, and even FFXIV sometimes, which is supposed to be a pretty good game if you're into raiding and don't mind paying a sub. People I know have left Archeage and SWToR as well.

Player retention is relative anyway. I'm sure this game lost a lot of players due to ascended armor being introduced and then gained some back over time and then lost some over the introduction of HoT. Those have been the big exoduses from the game.

I'm not convinced that people that come here primarily for PVP are going to be happy long term, and I'm okay with that. Same with raids. It shouldn't be the focus of this game and if it's not the focus some people will be disappointed.

But there are tons of games with both raids and PvP, and very few games that focus on the open world/exploration angle.

As for the topic of the OP, again, I wouldn't mind getting more rewards. We all like rewards. But I'm not convinced that it would get people to stay that would have left in any great numbers. On that much, at least we agree.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here are some main points for players to consider...

  • Reward systems are essential. This also includes refreshing rewards for players who have been with the game for a long time and grinded out every zone, meta event, mode... over and over and over before...

  • Alternative, and optional, in-game achievable reward paths. There have been a plethora of requests for items to be earned through playing the game, not just through gem store methods or rng.

  • Boredom sets in due to repeating the same content, and doing the same activities, over the course of time. The players affected by this the most are veterans. The proposal offers a path for veteran players to earn a currency that can be exchanged for something else the player either needs or wants... This affords a veteran player the option to do MORE of what THEY like to do during THEIR game time, while still earning a current they might need or that item they might want.

  • I never assumed that rewards are he holy grail fix to bring back, or keep, droves of veterans. It’s obvious that new content, story, zones, balance patches and updates are just as important in the equation... This thread happens to be specifically targeted at making a better reward system, that offers a really nice QoL feature to it, for an essential group of players to encourage them to keep logging in and working toward things they may want or need. And yes, veteran players are important, and any improvements we make for them will be a net benefit to them and to the game... Some of you are underestimating the positive impact a reward system like this will have on seasoned players, and as a reward system for GW2.

  • This idea is also an extension of these QoL features that exist in the game... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Statuette and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Converter

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@Swagger.1459 said:This affords a veteran player the option to do MORE of what THEY like to do during THEIR game time, while still earning a current they might need or that item they might want.Nice theory, but unfortunately humans don't work that way. A sizeable number of the so-called veterans will just use it to power-farm whatever is considered the most profitable content of the time, to the detriment of not only their own enjoyment but also the health of the game population as a whole.

I said it before: the game wins nothing from even more people grinding out events in the Silverwastes and Istan instead of participating in content all over the game world.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:But this system would not be the answer.

and how do you know that?

I'd be excluded from your vet system even though I've been playing for 4 years as the only criteria I meet is the core story and the meta events is so vague I don't know if you are talking world bosses or all the significant events that happen in a zone. Want to know how to make me feel like I should leave the game? Initiating the system you have decided upon. It would definitely make me feel that even though I have given money to the game, the devs do not want me as I'm not the player they are after. They want those that will grind away at the game, not casually log on and dink around doing random things for a few hours then logging off.

Why not expand on what they already reward in the system, the yearly birthday gifts? Year 4 you get a backpack, why not add some things into that for retention like weapon/armor skins, mount skins or the like? A vendor in each city that is like Dry Tops that each year you have played gets you access to items from that tier that you can buy. Add a growing instance that can be decorated like ESO's housing system or Rift's dimensions and visited by others. It starts out small but each year you get a wing added that you can expand on and show your accomplishments. Something other than this 'you aren't a vet because you don't raid/pvp/wvw/fractal/etc.' I've played enough games to know, that those that have introduced systems like that don't last long as the community gets so toxic to new players, the new players look elsewhere.

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