Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 108
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Revolution.5409 said:The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam?

those are not low tier HP.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam?

those are not low tier HP.

This does not change my point, they are not based on vitality to survive and they already have abilities that allow them to survive and to have meta build in every game content, not all the classes in the game work the same way and it is required that all have the same HP is right to be reworked also part of the class mechanics.Mirage right now is not exactly the example of balance, SB in second place.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam?

those are not low tier HP.

This does not change my point, they are not based on vitality to survive and they already have abilities that allow them to survive and to have meta build in every game content, not all the classes in the game work the same way and it is required that all have the same HP is right to be reworked also part of the class mechanics.Mirage right now is not exactly the example of balance, SB in second place.

this kinda can be interpreted as that now in the actual context as something not really valuable and should be removed tho hahaha since vitality isn't needed anymore to survive so why keep these differences in hp pool? (which isn't my point tho... i just want it to be updated)

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@"Kuulpb.5412" said:weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

you mean the minor one that gives HP on sword? and what kind of support an aura can bring? maybe the frost aura is great for the 10% dmg reduction (for 4 sec)

Sorry to tell you ... but sword weaver is a niche build = specific to a unique role and not effective in any other situations.

but i'm not talking about elite specs here but core classification anyway... so if you could stay on the topic , i would highly appreciate it.If you mean All "Damage" is niche then yes, if you mean a specific weapon is, then no.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ganathar.4956 said:Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

you mean the minor one that gives HP on sword? and what kind of support an aura can bring? maybe the frost aura is great for the 10% dmg reduction (for 4 sec)

Sorry to tell you ... but sword weaver is a niche build = specific to a unique role and not effective in any other situations.

but i'm not talking about elite specs here but core classification anyway... so if you could stay on the topic , i would highly appreciate it.If you mean All "Damage" is niche then yes, if you mean a specific weapon is, then no.

it's not that important but the weaver build (in sPVP) works only as a sidenoder vs some specific matchup or vs lower rank player that doesn't know how to handle it...

It's pretty easy to "counter" it when you know how to do ! that's what i meant by "niche".

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

you mean the minor one that gives HP on sword? and what kind of support an aura can bring? maybe the frost aura is great for the 10% dmg reduction (for 4 sec)

Sorry to tell you ... but sword weaver is a niche build = specific to a unique role and not effective in any other situations.

but i'm not talking about elite specs here but core classification anyway... so if you could stay on the topic , i would highly appreciate it.If you mean All "Damage" is niche then yes, if you mean a specific weapon is, then no.

it's not that important but the weaver build (in sPVP) works only as a sidenoder vs some specific matchup or vs lower rank player that doesn't know how to handle it...

It's pretty easy to "counter" it when you know how to do ! that's what i meant by "niche".

in PvE it is quite useful, I would say PvE, Pvp and WvW all having separate "balances" means changing the health would change everything honestly, SO what can only be Niche in one mode can be versatile in another.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Vagrant.7206 said:I think it's a good design overall -- really emphasizes class roles. The only time it's a concern is in PvP. In that case, the problem is that a class like Ele which is already super squishy and hard to play becomes harder to play.

Ele has low HP but its kit comes with tones of sustain and damage mitigation which make it not that squishy at all (and which I think justifies the low HP). Bunker Tempest was a fine example of that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Eme.2018 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:I think it's a good design overall -- really emphasizes class roles. The only time it's a concern is in PvP. In that case, the problem is that a class like Ele which is already super squishy and hard to play becomes harder to play.

Ele has low HP but its kit comes with tones of sustain and damage mitigation which make it not that squishy at all (and which I think justifies the low HP). Bunker Tempest was a fine example of that.

bunker isn't a thing anymore :) so another argue to say it's outdated :D then why mirage is still medium tier with all its dmg mitigation? I mean i agee with the argue behind that like 6 years ago ... but right now it makes almost no (enough) sense to me. That's why i was not "complaining" back then .

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:bunker isn't a thing anymore :) so another argue to say it's outdated :DBunker was an example, the general argument still stands Ele still has more damage mitigation than any other class thus it gets low HP.

then why mirage is still medium tier with all its dmg mitigation?Mirage is a special case. Have you not seen the endless nerf Mesmer-Mirage posts?

Also :D stop :) putting :D smileys :) after :) every :) fucking :) sentence :D.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just tune the health pool for each profession and elite spec individually.

It would add some flavor and allow Anet to play around more with designing specs if elite specs had stat bonuses and negatives tied to them. It would also help the whole elite specs are sidegrades notion that they tried to push but failed at in most cases.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I never really understood the difference in health pools. It just further causes problems with profession balance. I'd rather the hp be normalized across every profession and toughness/armor be more important (heavy professions having the most cause plate armor, and light professions having the least).

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kuulpb.5412 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

You would argue that, but you are not touching on my argument at all. I said that is doesn't have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. A better case for elementalist survivability is made here.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

It's true that you can go on and stack lots of defenses as an elementalist, but the whole point is that elementalist is an unbalanceable mess because of it. You can stack lots of defenses and hit like a wet noodle, or you can try going for a damage build that is the laughing stock of damage builds as far as survivability goes. There is no good middle ground to be found because elementalist class design is very flawed. This is what I mean by low inherent survivability. Unless you go out of your way to invest almost everything into suvivability, you will be ineffective.

Other classes do not have to bother investing their entire build into survivability, because it can be really good with minimal investment compared to ele. You do mention conditions here, but they are likely the main reason why ele needs to go full bunker. The devs thought that it was a genius idea to tie all condi cleanse to water and elementalist will never see a competitive damage build until something radical is done.

I fear that instead of actually reworking the class, they will put a band-aid in the form of an elite spec, just like they did with engineer. A spec with an OP F5 form that carries a bad profession in competitive modes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Dadnir.5038 said:

I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

then why no elementalist runs that build? and i'm sorry but ele can survive easier vs condies (with water traitline being mandatory and a lot of regen application) than power dmg ...

Succeed on bursting an ele and he's dead (almost)

but out of topic

@Eme.2018 said:Also :D stop :) putting :D smileys :) after :) every :) kitten :) sentence :D.

It makes the post more friendly and ppl tends to be less agressive.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eme.2018 said:Also :D stop :) putting :D smileys :) after :) every :) kitten :) sentence :D.

It makes the post more friendly and ppl tends to be less agressive.

No. It makes you just come off as passive aggressive and condescending.

that illustrate My point basically

Because ppl are too agressive in their argue and thinks that I 'm passive aggressive and condescending while i'm just not in the mood of being mad at ppl that doesn't think like me :D always smiling is my philosophy. and I just start to make it in the virtual world too !

OFF TOPIC

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:It's well known that all classes (with the same amount of stats ) doesnt have the same amount of HP. There are actually 3 tiers since the core release back to 2012.

Tier 1 : low hp pool (11k hp)

  • Elementalist
  • Thief
  • Guardian

Tier 2 : middle pool ( 15k hp)

  • Mesmer
  • Ranger
  • Engineer
  • Revenant

Tier 3 : High pool (19k HP)

  • Warrior
  • Necromancer

WIth the release of new elite specs, it feels like some of these categorizations are a little outdated. For me tho... it feels like the tiers are too spread from 11k to 19k ... 8k hp feels huge especially in the power creep state the game is right know.

My opinion is to rather increase low pool to 13k and reduce the high to 17k. But necromancer would probably really suffer from the "nerf" . An easy fix would be to had some more HP (such as herald got with its rework) on a minor trait but will make the trait line mandatory tho ...

or maybe just review the tier classification.

What do you think?

Buff tanky thieves at the expense of already squishy necro, sounds like an amazing idea /sarcasm

Link to post
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:It's well known that all classes (with the same amount of stats ) doesnt have the same amount of HP. There are actually 3 tiers since the core release back to 2012.

Tier 1 : low hp pool (11k hp)
  • Elementalist
  • Thief
  • Guardian

Tier 2 : middle pool ( 15k hp)
  • Mesmer
  • Ranger
  • Engineer
  • Revenant

Tier 3 : High pool (19k HP)
  • Warrior
  • Necromancer

WIth the release of new elite specs, it feels like some of these categorizations are a little outdated. For me tho... it feels like the tiers are too spread from 11k to 19k ... 8k hp feels huge especially in the power creep state the game is right know.

My opinion is to rather increase low pool to 13k and reduce the high to 17k. But necromancer would probably really suffer from the "nerf" . An easy fix would be to had some more HP (such as herald got with its rework) on a minor trait but will make the trait line mandatory tho ...

or maybe just review the tier classification.

What do you think?

Buff tanky thieves at the expense of already squishy necro, sounds like an amazing idea /sarcasm

it's not like it will change the entire world for 2k HP LOL

I don't mind you disagreeing but sarcasm is kinda disresepctfull tho

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:It's well known that all classes (with the same amount of stats ) doesnt have the same amount of HP. There are actually 3 tiers since the core release back to 2012.

Tier 1 : low hp pool (11k hp)
  • Elementalist
  • Thief
  • Guardian

Tier 2 : middle pool ( 15k hp)
  • Mesmer
  • Ranger
  • Engineer
  • Revenant

Tier 3 : High pool (19k HP)
  • Warrior
  • Necromancer

WIth the release of new elite specs, it feels like some of these categorizations are a little outdated. For me tho... it feels like the tiers are too spread from 11k to 19k ... 8k hp feels huge especially in the power creep state the game is right know.

My opinion is to rather increase low pool to 13k and reduce the high to 17k. But necromancer would probably really suffer from the "nerf" . An easy fix would be to had some more HP (such as herald got with its rework) on a minor trait but will make the trait line mandatory tho ...

or maybe just review the tier classification.

What do you think?

Buff tanky thieves at the expense of already squishy necro, sounds like an amazing idea /sarcasm

it's not like it will change the entire world for 2k HP LOL

I don't mind you disagreeing but sarcasm is kinda disresepctfull tho
  1. if it's so little then why propose it?
  2. 2k Hp is not insignificant
  3. All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.
  4. Sarcasm isn't that disrespectful tbh, especially when applied to absurd statements
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...