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Why majority of WvW players stopped giving feedback.


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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"Israel.7056" said:

On the one hand you postulate that the value of any opinion is fundamentally subjective. At some level this casts doubt on the use of debate but that's another issue.

On the other hand you ask us all to look at post deletions objectively. But you already stipulated that value of any feedback is subjective. Whose perspective can be considered objective then?

I think I can answer this, if I understand the question. Objectivity is best achieved by those who don't have a pony in the race. Post deletions are not personal, are not targeted, are not determined by where you post, how much you play, what profession you choose, your spendings in the Gem Store, nor your astrological sign or shoe size. :) Post deletions are handled by team members who have professional training and experience in viewing each post with as much clarity and as little bias as humanly possible.

Post deletions happen when people go OTT in what is supposed to be a reasonable place for conversation. Name calling, rampant insults, attacks on another member, conspiracy theories, threats of legal action -- anything listed in the
as a potential violation just shouldn't be posted. There's a
reason
we ask for people to be
reasonable
-- to support our community and their ability to have meaningful conversations.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

I apologize for all the whining and difficulty you guys must have trying to figure out what to do with WvW, Gaile. I can't say that I'm 100% satisfied with it's current state but I assure you not everyone is as negative and hostile as many of those you see here. And I don't believe "passionate" is a valid excuse for people only ever posting when they're angry and not when they're happy.

I appreciate that! And I agree that "passionate" is misused when it's an excuse. "I verbally abused someone because I am 'passionate'" has very little -- probably zero -- validity. We forgive a lot of borderline comments because we do appreciate that people can get a little carried away with expressing themselves, but there
is
a limit, and that's why moderation happens.

Interesting defence Gaile... more interestingly though, it seems that if such posts that insult, flame or troll other posters who are engaged in trying to converse their opinion on how they feel let down by ANET in regards to WvW.. .. well such posts, like the one not too far up above in this thread, don't get removed or certainly anywhere as fast as those that would be directing the same insults at ANET or others I general.

I'm no defending anything. And your comments make no sense at all. Threads and posts are moderated in the order the reports are received or the observation of an issue is made by the moderators. Nothing is predicated by the recipient or target of the insult or trolling. Please do feel free to report posts that you believe need to be reviewed and they will be reviewed and the appropriate decision made/action taken as soon as possible.

It made sense.. at least enough to finally see the post in question removed.

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@felincyriac.5981 said:Can you name some of the wvw feedback you've acted upon? What's the most recent one? @"Gaile Gray.6029"

Mark debuff being applied by traps (and including a throwable was mentioned by someone I can't find anymore).

While mentioned by myself here, I wasn't the first to actually come up with that idea (and I certainly didn't have the periodic 'detection' included). By all means blame me if that change isn't your cup of tea.

D:

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Indeed, the current state of WvW is quite sad and many old and past regular WvW players have left the game (also me).

As I quite often ask in Current WvW Devs on the gw2 twitch Thursdays streaming: "Why don't you use poll to understand the general expectation from the WvW Community? " All answers, I've got and remembered is that they don't like it or they doesn't give me an answer to the question.I'have the feeling that this game mode is quite sick because we haven't real interaction between the WvW community and WvW dev.We're like a patient and earnest the doctor, but we're not communicating and so we can't heal the sickness

I know that we're only player and we don't own the game, but we're the part that keeps the game alive.

I hope, that one day WvW Davis will answer to several posts in WvW section that are not Devs post.

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Maybe, they should have just made PvP games that were 8v8 or 10v10... You know like those FA and JQ modes from GW1 that were more balanced and even fun? The fact is open-world pvp modes do not work..

The base design of WvWvW was interesting but set up to fail. It obviously can not be balanced.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:I have some insight into the studio and the team. That's why I feel I should tell you that WvW is not being abandoned, WvW players are not being ignored -- that's my honest assessment of the situation. I know it's sometimes hard to be patient, and @"Diku.2546" I totally understand the request, even like the idea of giving timeframes, but the company believes that doing that causes more problems than it helps. In an ideal world, we could say "We'll probably do this Q1 2019" and people would know that it's likely but not promised. But a certain number of people believe any form of a "about" or "probably" or "we're hoping" timeframe is an absolute, rock-solid immutable commitment or promise.

Think back, and I bet you can remember threads -- and believe me, I do ;) -- where a team member tried to provide a probable, anticipated, or hoped-for timeframe and, when for one of a dozen very good reasons -- from technical issues to the decision to do something even better than initially planned -- that timeframe slipped. Most people are understanding, but there are some who meet that sort of change in plans with comments like, "You promised this thing and it's not here" and even "You lied to us!"

We like to under-promise and over-deliver. I hope that things we do in the future help convince you of that.

Have to disagree with you there. Many publishing/developer studios from Indie to the Big 3 are able to provide information and insight into things of what's going on at times. If you're honest up-front, fans are more inclined to be understanding and accepting of when deadlines are unable to be met. Will we be heartbroken/discouraged? Of course, but as long as you're showing that you're caring for the game mode, the number of toxic, upset players will be very few.

Such insight could be a number of things (examples listed below):

  1. It could be like some indie developers explaining what's going on with porting their game to one of the Big 3's consoles and why a delay has happened.
  2. It could be a list of our feedback, ideas, and suggestions with comments from the developers on what is and isn't possible/feasible.
  3. It could be something simple as mentioning the development has been a disaster and has to be restarted. (Cough Metroid Prime 4 cough)
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@"SloRules.3560" said:

Some of the persons inside the adopt a dev video are not with arenanet anymore and long gone and some dont even work on anything pvp/wvw related now.

Here is a list with info what they do now as far as could find anything:

John Corpening - still with Arenanet - works still as Competitive Game DirectorChris Whiteside (Studio Design Director) - Left Arenanet in March 2015 - works now as a consultant somewhere elseJoshua Davis (Competitive Events Manager) - Left Arenanet in February 2015 - unknown what he does nowHugh Norfolk (PVP Game Designer) - still with Arenanet - works as PvP Game DesignerAlexander Youngblood (Commerce Designer) - still with Arenanet - works as Game Designer in the "Current Events Team"Lauree Akhtar (commerce intern) - status unknown - is not in the employees list - therefore probably left the companyPaul Ella (release management product owner) - still with Arenanet - working on raids nowJessica Boettiger (Competitive QA Lead) - left Arenanet in April 2016 - works now at Riot Games (development studio of League of Legends)

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The way you guys have bullied Anet, I don't blame them for not wanting to respond to you. Sweet baby jeebus. Even when someone like Gail comes on and tries to explain the situation, that's still NOT enough for you. I feel bad for the Devs. They are constantly being told they suck, that they aren't doing anything, and their game is trash. How much verbal abuse can you take before you say, "Screw it!"? It's like the adage, If I'm gonna be accused of something I might as well do it. Most of you are just never going to be pleased no matter what you get. They could fix every issue you've ever complained about and you'd STILL find something to complain about. Back off and let them do what they do and just be happy that they are even doing it. They could just give up on this game altogether and go do something else. The game is old enough to be in the stage of just letting it stay right where it is at and maintaining servers instead of trying to make any improvements to it at all.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Feedback is noted and, often, acted upon.

do you know how hard it for a gw2 player to consider that statement as truth? HoT on release was the best/worst example of feedback not being listened to. WvW suffered hard, purely because server balancing wasn't addressed. new WvW features that was introduced bared no fruit because no one was around to play in a broken system.

Anet polices on feedback is outdated, you cant even submit bug report in other. it purposefully limits you categories that might not even relate to the issue.

Hundreds and Thousands of threads have been removed or locked because it talks about server matchups, even when constructive criticism is offered. yet you cant even follow your own policies on feedback because of the mess that happened in the December relink. you have to allow all forms of feedback and you need a platform to allow it. even if it is toxic

segway to toxic feedback. you need to allow it if its constructive. as bad as it is. you have to let players vent. ALL COMPANIES DO THIS, all successful companies allows all forms of feedback, or else you'll never know how bad your game is if you dont allow it. your not controlling toxic comments if your just pushing it elsewhere

you know what happens to me and other players that aren't given the platform to emotionally and negatively vent about about how truly disgustingly bad WvW is? i talk about how bad Gw2 is on mapchat, teamchat, guildchat, other games, and to other people that has or hasn't played gw2. i will always talk negatively about it. because of how archaic Anet's polices on feedback. how do you think review bombing on steam became a thing. its the same principal in a different environment. if you dont let people vent, they'll will do somewhere else. sure maybe they'll do it anyways. but if they complain to you first. you have more control of the feedback

to this day, there is still bugs and exploits in wvw left untouched that anet devs dont know about. because people gave up on giving feedback. its either feedback thats never acted upon or feedback or the more likely cuplrit to why no one bothers with feedback, is when its eventually acted upon, it takes half a year or 6 years to fix.

in this very recent set of patches, you cant see what borderland your friends is on unless they follow you. that got fixed to remove the ability to stalk tags or zergs.this took 6 years to implement, people were asking for this 4 years ago.

4 years........ 4 FREAKING YEARS ARE YOU KIDDING ME. thats one hella bad way to act on feedback

so forgive me for being insanely jaded on giving feedback. i know that anet has and done patched a few things over the years. but not as frequent as they should be. if the game doesn't get better. It makes it really hard for anyone to be bothered to give feedback, if the proper mechanisms are not in place to even comprehend, address or fix issues based on feedback

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I understand and endorse the concept of "underpromise and overdeliver". Unfortunately, it self-evidently doesn't apply to WvW. That's not to say it isn't the intent but the outcome of just about every proposed change that I can think of for years has been something that either received a great deal of pushback or was largely ignored. A few major initiatives, like the re-organization into fewer tiers and the creation of Guest server links, were tentatively welcomed for a honeymoon period before the criticisms began to outweigh the compliments. Had that been a genuine "overdelivery" it would have fixed the problem it set out to address, rather than just pushing it a little further down the road.

The problem in the end isn't Feedback, it's action. While it's true that people play MMORPGs for longer than they play most video games, a year is still a long time in most people's gameplaying calendar. It's now just over twelve months since the first detailed explanation of how World Restructuring might work and we are exactly where we were. The chance that whatever action is finally taken will solve the problems that began the process are minimal if for no other reason than it has taken so long there will be an entirely new set of problems in place by the time it arrives.

Personally, I no longer believe the underlying problems are amenable to restructuring in a way that will satisfy enough players to make the effort worth taking. If Alliances ever do appear, we will be back here in months (if not weeks) having this same discussion all over again. Might be better to acknowledge that WvW is a legacy system and leave it to those who still enjoy it for what it is - just as you did with PvE Dungeons.

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@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:The way you guys have bullied Anet, I don't blame them for not wanting to respond to you. Sweet baby jeebus. Even when someone like Gail comes on and tries to explain the situation, that's still NOT enough for you. I feel bad for the Devs. They are constantly being told they suck, that they aren't doing anything, and their game is trash. How much verbal abuse can you take before you say, "Screw it!"? It's like the adage, If I'm gonna be accused of something I might as well do it. Most of you are just never going to be pleased no matter what you get. They could fix every issue you've ever complained about and you'd STILL find something to complain about. Back off and let them do what they do and just be happy that they are even doing it. They could just give up on this game altogether and go do something else. The game is old enough to be in the stage of just letting it stay right where it is at and maintaining servers instead of trying to make any improvements to it at all.

I don't agree with the bullying. I can say this though, having to repeat the same thing over and over again; how does this feel in our end? Shouldn't it be looked upon and to be taken seriously? Really, some of us been telling Anet of the same repetitive problems for years after years, patches after patches, communications after communications, how far should it go before we get fed up, pack up and leave?

My gripe with Anet is, is it really that difficult in their end to see the repetitive patterns of the same issues that are continuously being addressed over and over again and not take serious action to either lesson it or to completely eliminate if from ever happening again.

As customers; we want solutions and transparency. Not to continually having to deal with the same problems over and over again for years and to be kept in the dark as to why those issues are not being addressed,

Anet can go about fixing those issues any way they want but in the end, there must be resolvement, trust, faith and openness during the process

' You lose yourself trying to to hold on to someone who doesn't care about losing you '

(Don't bully Anet; it is wrong, it is not mature--it will not resolve nothing)-be respectful ---no matter what

' If you lose self-control, everything will fall '

-Have a good day-

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"Israel.7056" said:

On the one hand you postulate that the value of any opinion is fundamentally subjective. At some level this casts doubt on the use of debate but that's another issue.

On the other hand you ask us all to look at post deletions objectively. But you already stipulated that value of any feedback is subjective. Whose perspective can be considered objective then?

I think I can answer this, if I understand the question. Objectivity is best achieved by those who don't have a pony in the race. Post deletions are not personal, are not targeted, are not determined by where you post, how much you play, what profession you choose, your spendings in the Gem Store, nor your astrological sign or shoe size. :) Post deletions are handled by team members who have professional training and experience in viewing each post with as much clarity and as little bias as humanly possible.

Post deletions happen when people go OTT in what is supposed to be a reasonable place for conversation. Name calling, rampant insults, attacks on another member, conspiracy theories, threats of legal action -- anything listed in the
as a potential violation just shouldn't be posted. There's a
reason
we ask for people to be
reasonable
-- to support our community and their ability to have meaningful conversations.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

I apologize for all the whining and difficulty you guys must have trying to figure out what to do with WvW, Gaile. I can't say that I'm 100% satisfied with it's current state but I assure you not everyone is as negative and hostile as many of those you see here. And I don't believe "passionate" is a valid excuse for people only ever posting when they're angry and not when they're happy.

I appreciate that! And I agree that "passionate" is misused when it's an excuse. "I verbally abused someone because I am 'passionate'" has very little -- probably zero -- validity. We forgive a lot of borderline comments because we do appreciate that people can get a little carried away with expressing themselves, but there
is
a limit, and that's why moderation happens.

Interesting defence Gaile... more interestingly though, it seems that if such posts that insult, flame or troll other posters who are engaged in trying to converse their opinion on how they feel let down by ANET in regards to WvW.. .. well such posts, like the one not too far up above in this thread, don't get removed or certainly anywhere as fast as those that would be directing the same insults at ANET or others I general.

I'm no defending anything. And your comments make no sense at all. Threads and posts are moderated in the order the reports are received or the observation of an issue is made by the moderators. Nothing is predicated by the recipient or target of the insult or trolling. Please do feel free to report posts that you believe need to be reviewed and they will be reviewed and the appropriate decision made/action taken as soon as possible.

Gaile,

It seems that the primary issue at hand is the lack of communication from the "team" that is "working on WvW", as a communication specialist I assume you agree that communication is widely accepted to be the key element in quelling an unhappy populous.

The lack of communication about why it is taking the time that it is, the issues that the "team" or single part timer is facing. In my experience posting an issue to your customer base generally contains at least one decent idea on how to resolve it.... Now of course we are widely considered to trolls whose only accomplishment consists out of obtaining an intangible legendary skin, but some of those might be slightly educated.

Even KPMG, EY, PWC, sent out weekly updates just so people feel they matter (even though its just canned stuff).

Moral of the story.... People can't complain when they feel they are part of the system. Interact with them and they turn into happy little kittens.

Also... I enjoyed playing with you in the same guild in GW1 (Shiverpeak something). Remember those good old days and your relentless pursuit of your Mini collection!?

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Zero.3871 said:a dev showed up in wvw subforum? :open_mouth:is it my Birthday?

Uhhh, no. They just came in to tell us to stop crying and went back to ignoring the game mode.

No, no, that truly is not what I wanted to say. I didn't even want to hint that!

I have some insight into the studio and the team. That's why I feel I should tell you that WvW is not being abandoned, WvW players are not being ignored -- that's my honest assessment of the situation. I know it's sometimes hard to be patient, and @"Diku.2546" I totally understand the request, even like the idea of giving timeframes, but the company believes that doing that causes more problems than it helps. In an ideal world, we could say "We'll probably do this Q1 2019" and people would know that it's likely but not promised. But a certain number of people believe any form of a "about" or "probably" or "we're hoping" timeframe is an absolute, rock-solid immutable commitment or promise.

Think back, and I bet you can remember threads -- and believe me,
I
do ;) -- where a team member tried to provide a probable, anticipated, or hoped-for timeframe and, when for one of a dozen very good reasons -- from technical issues to the decision to do something even better than initially planned -- that timeframe slipped. Most people are understanding, but there are some who meet that sort of change in plans with comments like, "You promised this thing and it's not here" and even "You
lied
to us!"

We like to under-promise and over-deliver. I hope that things we do in the future help convince you of that.

Wow, reading through these comments and you are a saint lol. However, might I suggest providing time-frames in a format a la the Domino's Pizza Tracker? https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/grub/2017/11/29/29-dominos-pizza-tracker.w1200.h630.jpg

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@Capitol.3815 said:

@Zero.3871 said:a dev showed up in wvw subforum? :open_mouth:is it my Birthday?

Uhhh, no. They just came in to tell us to stop crying and went back to ignoring the game mode.

No, no, that truly is not what I wanted to say. I didn't even want to hint that!

I have some insight into the studio and the team. That's why I feel I should tell you that WvW is not being abandoned, WvW players are not being ignored -- that's my honest assessment of the situation. I know it's sometimes hard to be patient, and @"Diku.2546" I totally understand the request, even like the idea of giving timeframes, but the company believes that doing that causes more problems than it helps. In an ideal world, we could say "We'll probably do this Q1 2019" and people would know that it's likely but not promised. But a certain number of people believe any form of a "about" or "probably" or "we're hoping" timeframe is an absolute, rock-solid immutable commitment or promise.

Think back, and I bet you can remember threads -- and believe me,
I
do ;) -- where a team member tried to provide a probable, anticipated, or hoped-for timeframe and, when for one of a dozen very good reasons -- from technical issues to the decision to do something even better than initially planned -- that timeframe slipped. Most people are understanding, but there are some who meet that sort of change in plans with comments like, "You promised this thing and it's not here" and even "You
lied
to us!"

We like to under-promise and over-deliver. I hope that things we do in the future help convince you of that.

Wow, reading through these comments and you are a saint lol. However, might I suggest providing time-frames in a format a la the Domino's Pizza Tracker?

Right, these people are just being downright mean. I really feel bad for the Devs. They just get hammered with no respect or thanks what-so-ever. I sure as heck wouldn't want their job with the way these people go straight at their throats. I'm just happy to have a game I enjoy playing, I know they will fix things when they can and eventually new stuff will work it's way into the game. I just don't expect it to happen on my time frame.

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These placating posts are kind of insulting. They presume that the community is too naive to deduce they're just lip service. The fact that they're even offered is just more evidence of the disinterest in the game mode. There is no shortage of very well delivered, professional, requests for communication of legitimate recognition of issues and/or information about such issues. Yet, there's nothing. The conversations have run off the rails because there's nothing from the top keeping them on the rails.

You tell us we're being heard and responded to, but there's no evidence. All the community sees is indifference while other aspects of the game are having attention lavished on them on the regular.

Until there's actual evidence that ANet has any connection to, understanding of, or vested interest in what's happening in the game mode the community (that's collectively actually pretty smart) is going to continue to conclude what the evidence available tells them. Telling us we're out of line for that isn't helping.

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@Tinnel.4369 said:These placating posts are kind of insulting. They presume that the community is too naive to deduce they're just lip service. The fact that they're even offered is just more evidence of the disinterest in the game mode. There is no shortage of very well delivered, professional, requests for communication of legitimate recognition of issues and/or information about such issues. Yet, there's nothing. The conversations have run off the rails because there's nothing from the top keeping them on the rails.

You tell us we're being heard and responded to, but there's no evidence. All the community sees is indifference while other aspects of the game are having attention lavished on them on the regular.

Until there's actual evidence that ANet has any connection to, understanding of, or vested interest in what's happening in the game mode the community (that's collectively actually pretty smart) is going to continue to conclude what the evidence available tells them. Telling us we're out of line for that isn't helping.

+1 You summed the root of the issue pretty well Tinnel.( I hope Anet at least try to understand this)

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It's frustrating to see such an effort to provide PvE content, or the amount of focus sPvP gets. How does wvw hours played (filter out those with decaying participation) compare to sPvP hours played/in queue? Does the team staffing at anet relate to these hours or is spvp getting a lot more attention on a per hours played basis.

Both WvW and sPvP are dying game modes and drastic changes are needed in both. WvW lacks balance team attention and server transfers play a bigger role in who wins matchups more than ever. sPvP is just stale. Personally I think enabling 10v10 mode in sPvP and merge the gear systems. You can still offer the old PvP gear systems for unranked so people don't have to invest so much to try new things. Balance wise both sPvP and WvW will be one, PvP balance. This way PvE is no longer coupled with WvW and attention will finally be given to WvW balance

By offering larger sPvP teams you are incentivizing organized groups with a ladder system, and WvW can be their outlet to play their full roster when not playing ranked. Plus it will finally give those wishing for gvgs a proper format

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As a developer who has played this game since not long after release, I feel the need to state what should be obvious. ArenaNet is a business and a subsidiary of NCSoft. Getting angry with developers is counterproductive as the decision regarding where their time is spent is above their pay grade. I would be willing to bet there are devs who would love to be working on WvW, but here is the truth: resources are deployed according to the most profitable segment of the player base, which is PvE. I'm sure some of you are like me and have spent thousands of dollars on gems over the years. If everyone who has a WvW focus purchased enough gems to warrant an aggressive development schedule, we would see WvW change at a faster pace. Yes, I know, you paid for HoT and have expectations based on that purchase, but the reality is ArenaNet has to improve their financials quarterly and meet the expectations of their parent company as well as buy and sell-side equity analysts. I've had so many great times playing GW2 and I feel an affinity for the people in the trenches who work on this game and believe any anger you feel toward them is misdirected. I strongly believe that AreaNet has the best WvW/RvR of any game available at the moment. If they build on that, there is an enormous community of RvR players who would be ready to join GW2 WvW. Instead of yelling at people who have worked so hard to create this wonderful game, figure out a way of getting the attention of the people in big offices who have the real power to shift development resources to our favorite game mode.

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Hey folks,

While there has been some great feedback posted (and it is appreciated), this thread has unfortunately gone far off topic, and has become focused on complaints about moderation. As always, you may take your comments or questions about forum policies to e-mail, but the subject is not appropriate for discussion, especially in a thread that was intended to be on another topic.

As such, we are closing this thread, and may be removing references to moderation, as per the Code of Conduct.

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