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Why Exhaustion is not a good mechanic.


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I've been persisting with EM and have come to a conclusion regarding this whole exhaustion thing being attached to dodge for any reason.

First thing - most if not almost every single time I proc exhaustion from a stunbreak it is accidental. I actively do not dodge when dazed/feared/taunted/stunned etc if I know it is there first - because the consequence is of course not worth it.

The rare occasions I knowingly, consciously make the decision to use EM to break a stun it is if I have absolutely nothing else to use first - mobility, F4, whatever... This is extremely uncommon and is usually followed by gtfo.

The reason why all those other occasions are accidental is because it happens in the fraction of time when I decide to press my dodge key (spacebar) and actuating the keypress. There is a delay of reaction time in the signal being sent to the thumb and also the time it takes to press the key past the actuation point. Nevermind taking latency into account...

Instacast or random cc, especially in outnumbered fights, can hit right in that time between those actions listed above and there is physically NOTHING you can do about it - impossible to stop oneself from pressing the button after already beginning to press it. For every normal dodge the game actively holds your hand and prevents you from dodging at all (or allow you to dodge if eg daze). For the situation of EM you have to somehow have to change a decision to not press a button in a time period that is beyond human capability.

So if I'm in a 1vX (or 2vX etc) and some random cc hits me as I'm already pressing the dodge button there is literally sod all I can do to change it - even though if I had the time to make a choice I would of course use other options first.

This may also apply to Unhindered Combatant in a similar but different way (which I also believe was not handled well), but I haven't played DD enough to know whether it is as big an issue as on mirage which suffers hugely when this happens.

I'm not saying this happens all the time - of course I avoid cc most of the time anyway - but I'm saying that it is not good design for this to even happen at all, when it does happen.

Anyway hope it makes sense, and for all the haters/trolls please refrain from piling all other mirage OP complaints in this topic - I only want to focus on EM and more importantly why Exhaustion as a mechanic tied to dodge is bad.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:Sensible mesmers specced away from EM even before exhaustion was added to the trait.

Oh come on, I usually support most of the posts you make but this one isn't helpful.

This thread is just in hope to point out an issue that is more than only combat related, but rather actual physical interaction and decision making in a situation that exists, where an outcome occurs that is not intended or even fully in control of by the player's choice. Anything that can reinforce the need for Anet to do something with this trait sooner rather than later.

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Exhaustion is a stupid ass mechanic. It was a stupid "fix" to DD and it was even more stupid for mirage, at least DD had flat endurance regeneration on top of extra endurance. Just rework EM already. Mirage already has stupid amounts of evasion, and can already dodge inside of a stun to avoid damage, there's no fucking need for a trait that turns a dodge into a stunbreak, which you can then use to launch a "powerful" counterattack from mirage cloak. That trait never should have made it 3 minutes into the design phase, and all sensible players were yelling that to ANet before PoF even launched. And yet, here we are, still "debating" about how to "balance" EM. The trait needs to go. Period. It can never be balanced. It will either be broken, or beyond useless/fun to use.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:Sensible mesmers specced away from EM even before exhaustion was added to the trait.

Sensible mesmers only ran the trait for the cleanse tbh. That alone means you could survive almost any condition match up with just jaunt and not having to go insp. Remember this was before we got the changes to anti-toxin and cleansing sigil.

If EM was 1 condition cleanse on dodge (no exhaustion or stunbreak) with anti toxin runes you could cleanse 2 every dodge and 2 with jaunt, would really help power mesmer in outnumbered fights where chill, cripple and weakness fly around like crazy.

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@OriOri.8724 welcome back, yes I agree hope they do it soon.

@apharma.3741 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Sensible mesmers specced away from EM even before exhaustion was added to the trait.

Sensible mesmers only ran the trait for the cleanse tbh. That alone means you could survive almost any condition match up with just jaunt and not having to go insp. Remember this was before we got the changes to anti-toxin and cleansing sigil.

If EM was 1 condition cleanse on dodge (no exhaustion or stunbreak) with anti toxin runes you could cleanse 2 every dodge and 2 with jaunt, would really help power mesmer in outnumbered fights where chill, cripple and weakness fly around like crazy.

Absolutely. The condi cleanse EM provides is very strong in many situations. Between it, cleansing sigils and jaunt/prestige it provides a significant advantage vs any condi and especially a mirror match.

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Thieves with Unhindered Combatant have a way around it, even if you dodge by mistake it's "just" 3 sec exhaustion and you gain the endurance via endurance gaining skills.I've been saying for a long time, give deceptions skills endurance gain if you truly want to tie exhaustion with EM.

Hopefully they change it altogether, though I wouldn't refuse if for some reason they decide to add another band aid fix on top, as I like to use 3 deceptions anyway.

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@Carighan.6758 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Oh come on, I usually support most of the posts you make but this one isn't helpful.

I mean, given the state the game is in right now I doubt anything
but
a defeatist attitude is a sensible attitude to take.

Understandable, though for the me audio/visual effects are satisfying enough to outweigh the gameplay issues.

The comment was also not accurate - given before they added exhaustion, EM was so ridiculously overpowered I could count the number of times I died in wvw over a 4 month period on one hand. While playing frequently, and in 1v1/roaming/outnumbered situations.You could also do stupid things like dive headfirst into zerg without any fear due to ease of dodge and gtfo.

The combinations of nerfs to this, Jaunt and vigour have reigned that in significantly, though this Exhaustion thing remains a stupid mechanic when the trait should at this point be redesigned.

Anyway I wonder - is the patch today? Or next week/week after?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Really should just wipe 1-2 condis with no exhaust. Maybe instead just a meaty but mid range internal cooldown on the stun break but not the condi remover. (like 15-20 seconds)

Alternatively what if breaking a stun added a 5 second cooldown to distortion? Stacking on top of existing cooldowns when applicable.

I play thief quite a bit as well as mesmer, and I get how people don’t like double standards for classes, but Mesmer doesn’t have as much dodge or ways to simply restore endurance. As such I don’t think exhaust is as reasonable to have on mirage, plus fiddling with those numbers on other skills to give mirage endurance to offset a trait people may not even take I don’t think is a wise path either, and makes things complicated if you start tying it to the trait.

As to the notions of “well mirage should just not use it anymore” and the like; I don’t think it’s useful or good design to just have a dead trait. For example Imagined Burden is kinda meh, but it’s still has it’s uses and at the very least can be more fun to use.

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@"Daishi.6027" said:Really should just wipe 1-2 condis with no exhaust. Maybe instead just a meaty but mid range internal cooldown on the stun break but not the condi remover. (like 15-20 seconds)

Alternatively what if breaking a stun added a 5 second cooldown to distortion? Stacking on top of existing cooldowns when applicable.

I play thief quite a bit as well as mesmer, and I get how people don’t like double standards for classes, but Mesmer doesn’t have as much dodge or ways to simply restore endurance. As such I don’t think exhaust is as reasonable to have on mirage, plus fiddling with those numbers on other skills to give mirage endurance to offset a trait people may not even take I don’t think is a wise path either, and makes things complicated if you start tying it to the trait.

As to the notions of “well mirage should just not use it anymore” and the like; I don’t think it’s useful or good design to just have a dead trait. For example Imagined Burden is kinda meh, but it’s still has it’s uses and at the very least can be more fun to use.

At this point I'd be happy with any solution that doesn't have exhaustion. Though still in favour of the icd with visual indicator for stunbreak portion - and yeah a 20s icd on that part would be perfect.

Only issue I have with stunbreak and any associated penalty that's not a hidden icd is because of situations like insta daze from DE mark (or any other insta cc, or maybe hard to see cc in larger fights) - while you begin to press dodge - that kind of kitten is unavoidable (honestly I'd rather the game prevented me from dodging). So may not be too keen on that adding 5s to F4 each time, given often it would be accidental procs.

Yeah I think it's silly to say "just ignore it", because that's sad when it limits the variety. It's bad enough that dune cloak is redundant compared with IH. :(

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Safandula.8723 said:Stun break on dodge is stupid mechanic if we want to start properly

Frankly agreed. I think they should remove the Stun Break on EM and increase the condi cleanse on it (2 or 3) and/or increase Mirage Cloak duration to 2 seconds. Fixed, no longer OP but no longer clearly a trap.

Mesmers already have a LOT of stunbreak options as is, including the superior Blink. And EM doesn't need a stunbreak when you can still dodge while stunned as a Mirage even if it doesn't stunbreak.

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From the new notes here - https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/69910/upcoming-balance-notes

What the hell does this mean?

• Exhaustion: This boon now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

And still no change for EM in this patch? (funnily enough applies to both acronyms, elusive mind and evasive mirror...) That's a bigger slap in the face than any of the other stuff going on at Anet.

Edit - I saw UC is getting a change that differentiates the amount of exhaustion depending on cripple, chill or immob... Can this at least also be implemented on EM to differentiate between daze, fear/taunt and hard cc like stun etc? Though of course a complete change of the trait is preferable.

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@"Curunen.8729" said:From the new notes here - https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/69910/upcoming-balance-notes

What the hell does this mean?

• Exhaustion: This boon now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

And still no change for EM in this patch? (funnily enough applies to both acronyms, elusive mind and evasive mirror...) That's a bigger slap in the face than any of the other stuff going on at Anet.

Edit - I saw UC is getting a change that differentiates the amount of exhaustion depending on cripple, chill or immob... Can this at least also be implemented on EM to differentiate between daze, fear/taunt and hard cc like stun etc? Though of course a complete change of the trait is preferable.

I believe it means if you somehow dodge three times and break a cc each time you will have up to 9 or 18 seconds of exhaustion depending on game mode. Ffs

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:From the new notes here -

What the hell does this mean?

• Exhaustion: This boon now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

And still no change for EM in this patch? (funnily enough applies to both acronyms, elusive mind and evasive mirror...) That's a bigger slap in the face than any of the other stuff going on at Anet.

Edit - I saw UC is getting a change that differentiates the amount of exhaustion depending on cripple, chill or immob... Can this at least also be implemented on EM to differentiate between daze, fear/taunt and hard cc like stun etc? Though of course a complete change of the trait is preferable.

I believe it means if you somehow dodge three times and break a cc each time you will have up to 9 or 18 seconds of exhaustion depending on game mode. kitten

Yeah it's beyond stupid especially when it also occurs from short duration dazes.

Could imagine an outnumbered scenario - get hit by 1s daze (eg DE mark or some random thing), dodge to avoid burst -> 6s exhaustion, 2s later accidently dodge a fraction (ie 0.05s) after getting hit by random cc, fear/daze whatever (due to reasons outlined in the OP) -> 10s exhaustion, maybe have it happen again 3 seconds later (lol if you had any endurance to do it - lean hard on those energy sigils and adventurer rune) -> 13s exhaustion... /gg

Ok sure realistically that is a rare situation - but the fact that it can happen is just stupid - that kind of system simply shouldn't exist in the first place. Exhaustion should quite honestly be deleted from the game and both UC and EM redesigned in a different way.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:From the new notes here -

What the hell does this mean?

• Exhaustion: This boon now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

And still no change for EM in this patch? (funnily enough applies to both acronyms, elusive mind and evasive mirror...) That's a bigger slap in the face than any of the other stuff going on at Anet.

Edit - I saw UC is getting a change that differentiates the amount of exhaustion depending on cripple, chill or immob... Can this at least also be implemented on EM to differentiate between daze, fear/taunt and hard cc like stun etc? Though of course a complete change of the trait is preferable.

I believe it means if you somehow dodge three times and break a cc each time you will have up to 9 or 18 seconds of exhaustion depending on game mode. kitten

Yeah it's beyond stupid especially when it also occurs from short duration dazes.

Could imagine an outnumbered scenario - get hit by 1s daze (eg DE mark or some random thing), dodge to avoid burst -> 6s exhaustion, 2s later accidently dodge a fraction (ie 0.05s) after getting hit by random cc, fear/daze whatever (due to reasons outlined in the OP) -> 10s exhaustion, maybe have it happen again 3 seconds later (lol if you had any endurance to do it - lean hard on those energy sigils and adventurer rune) -> 13s exhaustion... /gg

Ok sure realistically that is a rare situation - but the fact that it
can
happen is just stupid - that kind of system simply shouldn't exist in the first place. Exhaustion should quite honestly be deleted from the game and both UC and EM redesigned in a different way.

I dont even understand why you argue about this dead trait ...You know better than me they do balance mirage around IH and nerf everything considering a must have trait. They can just delete two other grandmaster traits so people wouldnt be 'lied' that we have a choice xDBy taking EM you agree to be dead on the first CC you 'dodge' (funny enough daze never prevented dodge but EM gives you exhausts, should have worked only on launch,knock etc but not daze)Dune cloak is...just a meme...

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@Odik.4587 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:From the new notes here -

What the hell does this mean?

• Exhaustion: This boon now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

And still no change for EM in this patch? (funnily enough applies to both acronyms, elusive mind and evasive mirror...) That's a bigger slap in the face than any of the other stuff going on at Anet.

Edit - I saw UC is getting a change that differentiates the amount of exhaustion depending on cripple, chill or immob... Can this at least also be implemented on EM to differentiate between daze, fear/taunt and hard cc like stun etc? Though of course a complete change of the trait is preferable.

I believe it means if you somehow dodge three times and break a cc each time you will have up to 9 or 18 seconds of exhaustion depending on game mode. kitten

Yeah it's beyond stupid especially when it also occurs from short duration dazes.

Could imagine an outnumbered scenario - get hit by 1s daze (eg DE mark or some random thing), dodge to avoid burst -> 6s exhaustion, 2s later accidently dodge a fraction (ie 0.05s) after getting hit by random cc, fear/daze whatever (due to reasons outlined in the OP) -> 10s exhaustion, maybe have it happen again 3 seconds later (lol if you had any endurance to do it - lean hard on those energy sigils and adventurer rune) -> 13s exhaustion... /gg

Ok sure realistically that is a rare situation - but the fact that it
can
happen is just stupid - that kind of system simply shouldn't exist in the first place. Exhaustion should quite honestly be deleted from the game and both UC and EM redesigned in a different way.

I dont even understand why you argue about this dead trait ...You know better than me they do balance mirage around IH and nerf everything considering a must have trait. They can just delete two other grandmaster traits so people wouldnt be 'lied' that we have a choice xDBy taking EM you agree to be dead on the first CC you 'dodge' (funny enough daze never prevented dodge but EM gives you exhausts, should have worked only on launch,knock etc but not daze)Dune cloak is...just a meme...I'll keep bringing it up until Anet decide to do something about it give mirage some build variety. ;) I do want to be able to use the condi cleanse without the side effect.
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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:From the new notes here -

What the hell does this mean?

• Exhaustion: This boon now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

And still no change for EM in this patch? (funnily enough applies to both acronyms, elusive mind and evasive mirror...) That's a bigger slap in the face than any of the other stuff going on at Anet.

Edit - I saw UC is getting a change that differentiates the amount of exhaustion depending on cripple, chill or immob... Can this at least also be implemented on EM to differentiate between daze, fear/taunt and hard cc like stun etc? Though of course a complete change of the trait is preferable.

I believe it means if you somehow dodge three times and break a cc each time you will have up to 9 or 18 seconds of exhaustion depending on game mode. kitten

Yeah it's beyond stupid especially when it also occurs from short duration dazes.

Could imagine an outnumbered scenario - get hit by 1s daze (eg DE mark or some random thing), dodge to avoid burst -> 6s exhaustion, 2s later accidently dodge a fraction (ie 0.05s) after getting hit by random cc, fear/daze whatever (due to reasons outlined in the OP) -> 10s exhaustion, maybe have it happen again 3 seconds later (lol if you had any endurance to do it - lean hard on those energy sigils and adventurer rune) -> 13s exhaustion... /gg

Ok sure realistically that is a rare situation - but the fact that it
can
happen is just stupid - that kind of system simply shouldn't exist in the first place. Exhaustion should quite honestly be deleted from the game and both UC and EM redesigned in a different way.

I dont even understand why you argue about this dead trait ...You know better than me they do balance mirage around IH and nerf everything considering a must have trait. They can just delete two other grandmaster traits so people wouldnt be 'lied' that we have a choice xDBy taking EM you agree to be dead on the first CC you 'dodge' (funny enough daze never prevented dodge but EM gives you exhausts, should have worked only on launch,knock etc but not daze)Dune cloak is...just a meme...I'll keep bringing it up until Anet decide to do something about it give mirage some build variety. ;) I do want to be able to use the condi cleanse without the side effect.

Well... good luck ? -1 condi on dodge tied to your endurance sounds too weak tbh
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