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Is there another Expansion in the works?


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@Nemmar.8491 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:the problem with the last two xpacts is the simple fact that, even after all what was made, all it truly got us is a way of fast and saver transportation.HoT doesn't really have anything more than allot of grind, added currency and a really lame end battle, leaving us with just gliders which is quite a cash cow for Anet.PoF has allot of nostalgia but not much to go for, in it's base sense it's simply a start to make the exact same mistake they made in HoT but now they have a bigger cash cow, mounts.

what i am really hoping for is an xpac that has a big impact that draws allot of old and new guild wars fans but isn't yet more grinding, farming with extra new currencies and yet another cash cow.it might surprise ppl but it was handled better in guild wars, they released an expansion but kept everything within that place.they made plenty of exclusive stuff but it didn't affect the rest of the game, you can play the game without the xpac while adding allot of fun to the game if you bought it.

so to round it up, it's better when an expansion pack adds something new but doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage when you don't own it, one that makes quite an impact but doesn't make it necessary.

You can play gw2 without the expansions just fine. In gw1 you were at a disadvantage without the expansions.

That is a funny thing to say. I would like to know why you say that.

Is it because of the skills that were unlocked with a new expansion? Is it not the same as the elite specializations and their skills nowadays? Also, how are you not at a disavantage without a glider and mounts? :expressionless:

I didnt say that you were not at a disadvantage without glider or mount.

What I have said, multiple times, is that both games could be played just fine without expansions, but that buying the expansions gave advantages. This was to counter the claim that this was an issue for gw2 but not gw1.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Nemmar.8491" said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

I think you are a bit confused.The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

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I believe it is the trickle of the F2P players who occasionally buy gems that helps those times in between when things are released that the whales go after? I mean, once something new hits the TP, and all of the whales who are going to buy it have bought it, then what income is there before the next new thing? Alienating this portion of the base might be more harmful than we could ever know (because only ANet has those figures).

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@Nemmar.8491 said:

@Nemmar.8491 said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

I think you are a bit confused.The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

Two missconceptions:

A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

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@Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:> I really hope Anet is going to surprise us with LS5, but there are a lot of rumors flying around that LW is set to replace expacs altogether, and if that's the case I feel like Anet should confirm/deny.

I totally agree, rumors tend to be quite destructive. My hope is that they don't abandon the expansion packs i truly feel this would be a miss read of what the bulk of the community wants and could very well end up turning into another fiasco like that certain mobile instead of expansion (or new title) debacle which immediately and severely impacted that companies stocks.

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Honestly I think if they scrapped Expacks and just worked on LW it would really screw over Arenanet, the LW is already a massive turn off for anyone who is coming in new. Most MMO's you buy an Expack and can play through the whole story to the next one for free or with a subscription. Having to then buy content updates like Living world after you just brought an expansion is confusing for newcomers, especially after paying $19.99 for hot and week later needing to pay another $19.99 for LW3.

Expansions bring Hype, they put GW2 back into the news sections of gaming websites. How they handled POF was amazing, announcing it one month before release blew my mind. Most MMO's announce Expacks 9/10 months before release and its this boring slow content drip of news until the Expack hits where Arenanet was like, WAM BAM Expack is releasing in one month!

I've never been more hyped for a MMO expack than PoF.

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Two missconceptions:

A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

I have to agree with this, I came back to GW2 about a year and a half ago after losing my job and my PC dying i only had my PS4, eventually I got back on my feet and managed to get back to GW2 and one of the best things about it?? I wasn't behind anyone, my gear was relevant, I could still go fractals, I could continue exactly where i left off, I didn't need to level up 20 levels and get a gear score of 200+ to just be able to do some content. This is THE best thing about GW2.

I've played so many MMO's, and they two I have spent most time in was FFXIV and GW2 and I can say without any doubt I do not miss vertical progression at all. In FFXIV you miss a patch there is a new currency, new Ilv gear, new instances, new raid. But to do any of this you have to grind new gear, make sure you cap currency for the week, buy gear with that currency. This happens every patch the same vertical boring grind.

If i never play another vertical progression game again it'll be too soon.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Nemmar.8491 said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

I think you are a bit confused.The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

Two missconceptions:

A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

Well... i guess that after the recent news, my position was more realistic. Wether it's the majority or not. I guess it says everything.

Guild wars needs better retention systems and gameplay/payment options. Or i guess we can all continue to pretend everything is alright as Anet downsizes and eventually gets shut down by NCsoft. Money m'boy. You gotta follow it. GW2 isn't making enough of it. And honestly, i would rather lootboxes not be the solution as that won't work long term either.

So, disagree all you want, say it's my opinion all you want and say that i am a minority all you want. Reality stands with me. Your stubbornness is risking the future of Guild Wars. It's time to admit it has to change before it's too late.

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@Nemmar.8491 said:

@Nemmar.8491 said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

I think you are a bit confused.The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

Two missconceptions:

A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

Well... i guess that after the recent news, my position was more realistic. Wether it's the majority or not. I guess it says everything.Guild wars needs better retention systems and gameplay/payment options. Or i guess we can all continue to pretend everything is alright as Anet downsizes and eventually gets shut down by NCsoft. Money m'boy. You gotta follow it. GW2 isn't making enough of it. And honestly, i would rather lootboxes not be the solution as that won't work long term either.

So, disagree all you want, say it's my opinion all you want and say that i am a minority all you want. Reality stands with me. Your stubbornness is risking the future of Guild Wars. It's time to admit it has to change before it's too late.

What are you smoking? If at all the recent news (if you are up to date) clearly indicates that non GW2 related projects are iced....

Aka, a refocus on GW2 and making money off of that and certainly not alienate that fan base.

EDIT: since you added things:

You did read that non GW2 related projects were cancelled? What Arenanet will likely do is focus on monetizing GW2 WITHIN the scope of its strengths. If you think this means gear progression, you are out of your mind.

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I've said this months ago. GW2 is prepared to go into maintenance mode. I got burried in replyies of ppl calling me dumb and a hater. But that was just a realistic observation. The amount of content and supposed ppl working on the game never matched up in the recent years.

And now we have even a dev saying this is what's happening (Jessica Price, even though she has an axe to grind with her former employee, said that there's pretty much a skeleton crew remaining and that ppl got moved slowly away from GW2 to work on other projects for many months now. So bad that they were told that they can only have one single cut scene for LS5, which is supposed to be such a big LS release.).

And then there's a confirmation of the devs where the only thing that they can tell us is that LS5 is in the works, which everyone knew for a fact already. If they had an expansion coming this would've been the time to let us know. But obviously they have nothing in the works, so they won't tell you because they want you to still spend money on a possibly dying game in LS5.

The LS killed the game and thanks for all the ppl defending the company time and time again. You guys should've made one ****storm after another, years ago to change course of the development, shifting away from one time only throw away content that delivers 2hrs of content each 4 months with 90% of rewards in the cashshop.

There are games out there far less polished, far worse quality. Yet their content keeps ppl enganged and they hammer out one expansion after another., with new features, new story, new dungeons, raids, single player scaling content, group player scaling content, tons of skins, armors, weapons, mounts etc. Where has this happened over all these years in GW2?

Catering to ppl that play your game 2 hours each week and to the smallest fraction of players, the whales, that flood in every 2 weeks to buy the entire shop, turned out to maybe not be the best longterm idea for this game, who would've thought

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Nemmar.8491" said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those playersWhen you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?I do agree that the MMO genre needs to get out of the stale fomula's they've been trying to repeat hoping to catch that but that doesn't mean it's all bad. What MMOs generally have as a problem is that on release they forget that they do need to compete more with elder games and can't just say "well it's new so it can't have all the things" and think that players will all accept that and that they generally do not fix the core game but just "move forward" with new content. That means that MMOs never really achieve a solid foundation. They do not invest into what they made before. This has to do with business practices that favor new investments that lead to more spending but forgets the overall enjoyment and longevity of the game. In other words they serve investors more than customers.

Also GW2 which is somewhat different from other MMOs isn't as different as some people think. A lot of it is the same but has just been packaged differently. I will remind you that map hearts do have some difference with normal quests but at the same time what you do is still kill x mobs, collect x items and click x clickables type of stuff. So that's just one example of how GW2 does have a different approach but in many ways actually isn't that different from other games. Still that doesn't mean that none of this makes a difference but when you come down to the nuts and bolts I just feel that GW2 isn't THAT different from other MMOs.

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

@"Nemmar.8491" said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those playersWhen you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

The main difference here is this though:Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

Now you could make an argument along the lines of:"Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Nemmar.8491" said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those playersWhen you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

The main difference here is this though:Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

Now you could make an argument along the lines of:"Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.When GW2 came out it wasn't long before there were complaints about endgame not being there and people wanting to have some form of progression. This is why the fractals came. So that means that even though some of the players came here for not having those elements, there were still a lot of players that came here for an MMO experience and didn't have such a strong opinion on not having a trinity or gear grind.

Personally I play GW2 but I actually prefer trinity games but it's not the only thing that matters to me. That's why I play GW2 and not those other games. In simple terms though if SWTOR hadn't ruined their endgame reward system with something called Galactic Command which still plagues that game today, I would be there and not here.

My point is that it's a bit naïve to think that players can just be that easily categorized and that some of these factors may be important to some players but not all. Now I'm not saying that GW2 should change to fit that mold. Not saying that at all, but I am saying that in spite of such differences you may find that a lot of players might be very willing to move to another game if there was one that appealed to them enough. Recent years have been pretty poor in that respect but I'm sure that as soon as another MMO comes out that does actually appeal I will check it out because I only really play GW2 since there's nothing better at the moment... but I do want something better.

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

@"Nemmar.8491" said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those playersWhen you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

The main difference here is this though:Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

Now you could make an argument along the lines of:"Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.When GW2 came out it wasn't long before there were complaints about endgame not being there and people wanting to have some form of progression. This is why the fractals came. So that means that even though some of the players came here for not having those elements, there were still a lot of players that came here for an MMO experience and didn't have such a strong opinion on not having a trinity or gear grind.

No, this is why ascended was introduced. Fractals came because the dungeon content was too hard to salvage and it was easier to implement a new system.

@Gehenna.3625 said:Personally I play GW2 but I actually prefer trinity games but it's not the only thing that matters to me. That's why I play GW2 and not those other games. In simple terms though if SWTOR hadn't ruined their endgame reward system with something called Galactic Command which still plagues that game today, I would be there and not here.

So SWTOR ruined their endgame reward system. Blizzard with WoW did the same with BoA. Yet you expect Arenanet with GW2 to succeed when going against what players expect?

@Gehenna.3625 said:My point is that it's a bit naïve to think that players can just be that easily categorized and that some of these factors may be important to some players but not all. Now I'm not saying that GW2 should change to fit that mold. Not saying that at all, but I am saying that in spite of such differences you may find that a lot of players might be very willing to move to another game if there was one that appealed to them enough. Recent years have been pretty poor in that respect but I'm sure that as soon as another MMO comes out that does actually appeal I will check it out because I only really play GW2 since there's nothing better at the moment... but I do want something better.

Yes, recent years have been very poor and so far, what Arenanet has been doing has proven successful to some extent (or the game would have ended similar to other MMOs released).

It's very simple really, if you think the game will generate a lot more revenue and profit by implementing continuous gear grind, then Arenanet should go for it. It's what would be best for the company. If you do not think that introducing a continuous gear grind will generate more revenue and profit, then they obviously should not. I have given my reasons as to why I do not believe this to be in the games best interest founded in both past community reactions as well as unique design elements. All I have heard from the other side so far has been: because I want it.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Nemmar.8491" said:The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing.
There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:
  • alienate part of your core player base
  • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those playersWhen you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

The main difference here is this though:Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

Now you could make an argument along the lines of:"Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.When GW2 came out it wasn't long before there were complaints about endgame not being there and people wanting to have some form of progression. This is why the fractals came. So that means that even though some of the players came here for not having those elements, there were still a lot of players that came here for an MMO experience and didn't have such a strong opinion on not having a trinity or gear grind.

No, this is why ascended was introduced. Fractals came because the dungeon content was too hard to salvage and it was easier to implement a new system.Ascended gear was part of the fractals set up. That's why it came with infusion slots. Fractals do have a progression system within it with tiers and levels.

@Gehenna.3625 said:Personally I play GW2 but I actually prefer trinity games but it's not the only thing that matters to me. That's why I play GW2 and not those other games. In simple terms though if SWTOR hadn't ruined their endgame reward system with something called Galactic Command which still plagues that game today, I would be there and not here.

So SWTOR ruined their endgame reward system. Blizzard with WoW did the same with BoA. Yet you expect Arenanet with GW2 to succeed when going against what players expect?No, I'm saying that there's no such thing as "what players expect" because that's very different from person to person.

@Gehenna.3625 said:My point is that it's a bit naïve to think that players can just be that easily categorized and that some of these factors may be important to some players but not all. Now I'm not saying that GW2 should change to fit that mold. Not saying that at all, but I am saying that in spite of such differences you may find that a lot of players might be very willing to move to another game if there was one that appealed to them enough. Recent years have been pretty poor in that respect but I'm sure that as soon as another MMO comes out that does actually appeal I will check it out because I only really play GW2 since there's nothing better at the moment... but I do want something better.

Yes, recent years have been very poor and so far, what Arenanet has been doing has proven successful to some extent (or the game would have ended similar to other MMOs released).To some extent is the right wording and kudo's to GW2 for surviving in an otherwise difficult environment, though I do believe that this limited success is very much in part because there isn't much competition.It's very simple really, if you think the game will generate a lot more revenue and profit by implementing continuous gear grind, then Arenanet should go for it. It's what would be best for the company. If you do not think that introducing a continuous gear grind will generate more revenue and profit, then they obviously should not. I have given my reasons as to why I do not believe this to be in the games best interest founded in both past community reactions as well as unique design elements. All I have heard from the other side so far has been: because I want it.As I said, I don't say that gear grind should be introduced. I'm just saying your reasoning is flawed. It really would be to your benefit if you could separate the two. I'm not saying that GW2 should get new gear levels and level cap raises but the reasoning you have behind your statements is just very flawed especially when you compare GW2 to other MMOs.
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