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[storm.3120]

@Megametzler.5729 said:Condi mirage can also fill more different roles like for example +1 with it's condi burst and mobility. The problem is, it does not have to choose between roles, combines damage with mobility and sustain. The recent patch - while nerfing - still doesn't address the main issues, but well, that is not really unexpected (and goes for boonbeast as well, as far as I can see).Since you are talking about mobility on mirage with staff axe/x . Where is this magic mobility you are talking about . Portal is dead , no swiftness,no leaps. I'm waiting

[Mega.5791]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Condi mirage can also fill more different roles like for example +1 with it's condi burst and mobility. The problem is, it does not have to choose between roles, combines damage with mobility

and

sustain. The recent patch - while nerfing - still doesn't address the main issues, but well, that is not really unexpected (and goes for boonbeast as well, as far as I can see).Since you are talking about mobility on mirage with staff axe/x . Where is this magic mobility you are talking about . Portal is dead , no swiftness,no leaps. I'm waiting

3 free vertical teleports (Blink, 2x Jaunt), Illusionary Ambush, axe 3, staff 2? I guess you are not talking about combo finishers, but 4 of them are leaps.

Also with staff you can get quite some swiftness.

[storm.3120]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Condi mirage can also fill more different roles like for example +1 with it's condi burst and mobility. The problem is, it does not have to choose between roles, combines damage with mobility

and

sustain. The recent patch - while nerfing - still doesn't address the main issues, but well, that is not really unexpected (and goes for boonbeast as well, as far as I can see).Since you are talking about mobility on mirage with staff axe/x . Where is this magic mobility you are talking about . Portal is dead , no swiftness,no leaps. I'm waiting

3 free vertical teleports (Blink, 2x Jaunt), Illusionary Ambush, axe 3, staff 2? I guess you are not talking about combo finishers, but 4 of them are leaps.

Also with staff you can get quite some swiftness.

What bs is this? Tf you count ia tht randomly take anywhere or bugs out and do nothing (cant be used without target AND outside of its range). Exact same applied to axe3.You will use choas storm to run past it and pray for 3s of swiftnes? Or you want to afk in it and hope u get swiftness?"Combo finishers help to be more mobile Megametzler.5729"Staff 2 is only thing I'd use freely to move faster. The only breakstun and precious jaunt with its cd just to move around map ? Hell no .But yes,thats the only things that allow you to move faster WHILE having zero swiftness access.Soulbeast meant to be ultimate bs? Bird swiftness w/e he want/ swoop and 2 sword leaps on ~10s cd that can be used in combat and out of combat? While he has everything you said and do better 1vX than mirage? Okay...

[Simonoly.4352]

1) Evasive Mirror duration should be shaved OR make it an on-dodge trait so it can't occur with other evades.2) I'm going to assume you meant to write another trait here as Chaotic Interruption is so very far away from "cancer".3) Illusionary Counter duration could certainly do with being reverted to 8 seconds again.4) Confusing Images does do far too much power damage and that should be reduced. It's a super long and obvious cast though, so everything else is fine.5) Chaos traitline as a whole is very similar in efficacy to other defensive traitlines on other classes. Nothing needs to be changed overall here.6) Axes of Symmetry is going to be all fine with the nerf Anet have planned effectively reducing confusion stacks by a third.7) Imaginary Axes again, will be fine with the nerf Anet have planned. It's hardly passive damage when it's tied to both endurance use and it's an actual attack.8) It's so easy to interrupt Mantra of Pain and if the Mesmer is seriously spending time during a fight constantly charging it, then they're no threat at all.9) Deceptive Evasion is already limited by endurance use. It absolutely does not need an ICD.

Anyway, the big nerfs to the axe/shatter combo, changes to how confusion functions and the duration reduction of Mirage Cloak will make Mirage a more manageable fight for competent players.

[Mega.5791]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Condi mirage can also fill more different roles like for example +1 with it's condi burst and mobility. The problem is, it does not have to choose between roles, combines damage with mobility

and

sustain. The recent patch - while nerfing - still doesn't address the main issues, but well, that is not really unexpected (and goes for boonbeast as well, as far as I can see).Since you are talking about mobility on mirage with staff axe/x . Where is this magic mobility you are talking about . Portal is dead , no swiftness,no leaps. I'm waiting

3 free vertical teleports (Blink, 2x Jaunt), Illusionary Ambush, axe 3, staff 2? I guess you are not talking about combo finishers, but 4 of them are leaps.

Also with staff you can get quite some swiftness.

What bs is this? Tf you count ia tht randomly take anywhere or bugs out and do nothing (cant be used without target AND outside of its range). Exact same applied to axe3.You will use choas storm to run past it and pray for 3s of swiftnes? Or you want to afk in it and hope u get swiftness?"Combo finishers help to be more mobile Megametzler.5729"Staff 2 is only thing I'd use freely to move faster. The only breakstun and precious jaunt with its cd just to move around map ? Hell no .But yes,thats the only things that allow you to move faster WHILE having zero swiftness access.Soulbeast meant to be ultimate bs? Bird swiftness w/e he want/ swoop and 2 sword leaps on ~10s cd that can be used in combat and out of combat? While he has everything you said and do better 1vX than mirage? Okay...

Or, you know, remember lots of ledges on lots of maps and teleport up, though and around. Up the tower in Kyhlo, up ledges in Foefire, through walls and up ledges in Skyhammer.

Boonbeast has no way to teleport up ledges or through walls. (Smoke Assault can be used, is not part of boon beast though.) It also has less burst than condi mirage (Power soulbeast is a different matter of course). Only thief has the same offensive and defensive teleport capabilities (or more) than condi mirage.

Interesting you don't mention the 1200 range 24s CD stun breaking teleport for example. Want to have a comparison? Ele's Lightning Flash has 900 range, is a cantrip - where the others are basically useless and therefor the CD reduction isn't worth it - which gives it a usually 40s CD and doesn't break stun. Yes, it does some damage.

Or another one: Ride the Lightning is - when used for mobility - better or worse than IA? It can have a 15s CD (if it hits after a straight line), the bug potential might be the same (RtL stops at smallest ledges, does not work with smalles bumps), can be interrupted and rooted. Both have a 1200 range, IA can be cast though walls and up ledges. IA always has 20s CD, can be cast anytime, not rootable, not interruptable.

You know what? I am giving it a try later, estimating condi mirage's point-to-point mobility with ele's and maybe boonbeast's. Gonna record the times and post the results and used CDs here, on one or two maps.

As a final note: Please remember good manners. Point out what distance these mobility skills have, point out the average swiftness you can stack in fights, point out comparisons with other classes if you want to argument.

[Quadox.7834]

@"Simonoly.4352" said:1) Evasive Mirror duration should be shaved OR make it an on-dodge trait so it can't occur with other evades.2) I'm going to assume you meant to write another trait here as Chaotic Interruption is so very far away from "cancer".3) Illusionary Counter duration could certainly do with being reverted to 8 seconds again.4) Confusing Images does do far too much power damage and that should be reduced. It's a super long and obvious cast though, so everything else is fine.5) Chaos traitline as a whole is very similar in efficacy to other defensive traitlines on other classes. Nothing needs to be changed overall here.6) Axes of Symmetry is going to be all fine with the nerf Anet have planned effectively reducing confusion stacks by a third.7) Imaginary Axes again, will be fine with the nerf Anet have planned. It's hardly passive damage when it's tied to both endurance use and it's an actual attack.8) It's so easy to interrupt Mantra of Pain and if the Mesmer is seriously spending time during a fight constantly charging it, then they're no threat at all.9) Deceptive Evasion is already limited by endurance use. It absolutely does not need an ICD.

Anyway, the big nerfs to the axe/shatter combo, changes to how confusion functions and the duration reduction of Mirage Cloak will make Mirage a more manageable fight for competent players.

Scepter 3 also needs its animation from stealth fixed, plus you should get revealed earlier in the cast. Things like this would make the big damage "more fine". The fact that it does damage even on bunker/tank Chrono is a larger problem with PvP in general - the fact that builds with demolisher amulet can be considered bunkers. Ferocity is a bad stat anyway so this amulet is not far from Berserker amulet. Compared to 2015 and earlier, defense now comes much more from traits/skills rather than stats.

About Mantra of Pain I agree with Flandre, it has always been noskill, there is way too much instant damage in this game (in fact Mantra of Distraction is also stupid and comes with the added problem of having to balance every Mesmer interrupt-trait around it). But at this point I have stopped hoping for a rework of them.

[storm.3120]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Condi mirage can also fill more different roles like for example +1 with it's condi burst and mobility. The problem is, it does not have to choose between roles, combines damage with mobility

and

sustain. The recent patch - while nerfing - still doesn't address the main issues, but well, that is not really unexpected (and goes for boonbeast as well, as far as I can see).Since you are talking about mobility on mirage with staff axe/x . Where is this magic mobility you are talking about . Portal is dead , no swiftness,no leaps. I'm waiting

3 free vertical teleports (Blink, 2x Jaunt), Illusionary Ambush, axe 3, staff 2? I guess you are not talking about combo finishers, but 4 of them are leaps.

Also with staff you can get quite some swiftness.

What bs is this? Tf you count ia tht randomly take anywhere or bugs out and do nothing (cant be used without target AND outside of its range). Exact same applied to axe3.You will use choas storm to run past it and pray for 3s of swiftnes? Or you want to afk in it and hope u get swiftness?"Combo finishers help to be more mobile Megametzler.5729"Staff 2 is only thing I'd use freely to move faster. The only breakstun and precious jaunt with its cd just to move around map ? Hell no .But yes,thats the only things that allow you to move faster WHILE having zero swiftness access.Soulbeast meant to be ultimate bs? Bird swiftness w/e he want/ swoop and 2 sword leaps on ~10s cd that can be used in combat and out of combat? While he has everything you said and do better 1vX than mirage? Okay...

Or, you know, remember lots of ledges on lots of maps and teleport up, though and around. Up the tower in Kyhlo, up ledges in Foefire, through walls and up ledges in Skyhammer.

Boonbeast has no way to teleport up ledges or through walls. (Smoke Assault can be used, is not part of boon beast though.) It also has less burst than condi mirage (Power soulbeast is a different matter of course). Only thief has the same offensive and defensive teleport capabilities (or more) than condi mirage.

Interesting you don't mention the 1200 range 24s CD stun breaking teleport for example. Want to have a comparison? Ele's Lightning Flash has 900 range, is a cantrip - where the others are basically useless and therefor the CD reduction isn't worth it - which gives it a usually 40s CD and doesn't break stun. Yes, it does some damage.

Or another one: Ride the Lightning is - when used for mobility - better or worse than IA? It can have a 15s CD (if it hits after a straight line), the bug potential might be the same (RtL stops at smallest ledges, does not work with smalles bumps), can be interrupted and rooted. Both have a 1200 range, IA can be cast though walls and up ledges. IA always has 20s CD, can be cast anytime, not rootable, not interruptable.

You know what? I am giving it a try later, estimating condi mirage's point-to-point mobility with ele's and maybe boonbeast's. Gonna record the times and post the results and used CDs here, on one or two maps.

As a final note: Please remember good manners. Point out what distance these mobility skills have, point out the average swiftness you can stack in fights, point out comparisons with other classes if you want to argument.

If you want to know its range feel free to use google my friend .I'm not talking about in combat mobility simply because nothing ever will be close to thief .I did mention it 'the only stunbreak' . If you are interested about skill distance you can check the wiki, i have no time for that.Ye try sourbeast and compare it to other classeses . Im pretty sure thief n1 then soulbeast then mesmer xDNot saying eles are hyper mobile tho but w/e. Laters

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Flandre.2870 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Flandre.2870 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Agree on 2 3 6 7 the others are either who gives a kitten or are you out of your mind? (9)Regarding boons, I don't use chaos so I don't care, but it's funny when there are other professions with a thousand more boon access and uptime.

The only successful mirages ever including me in mATs run chaos.You can't run mirage without chaos and do well.Deceptive evasion makes the gameplay passive and creates broken interactions and unfun experienceMake the mirage a proper roamer like at the start of PoF, not the greatest duelist but can take duels not a full blown duelistspikeeverything like it is rn

"The only successful mirages ever including me in mATs run chaos."Not true.

"Deceptive evasion makes the gameplay passive and creates broken interactions and unfun experience."Correction: mirage does.

"Make the mirage a proper roamer."Yes; it's called power mirage.

EDIT: your scepter suggestions are stupid too (even though i hate the weapon).

Core mesmer will never be good, chrono will never use deceptive evasion since you have chronophantasma. IH is fine without the clone spam and deceptive evasion has many more stupid interactions, not just IH.Show me a mirage that did well in the current meta (last 6 months or so) without chaos.When it comes to mirage being a roamer look at earlier mats and how the class worked like with sword/staff build

@"phokus.8934" said:Flandre Mirage main? Wasn't he always playing SB...

Screenshot for people calling me a sb main :)

I have under 200 games on ranger, only reason i play it in mat beacuse its faceroll easy and counters mirage

Ummm.... EXCUSE YOU! @"Trevor Boyer.6524" assured us all that Boonbeast doesn't come close to countering mirage multiple times across multiple threads every time Mirage or Boonbeast were ever a topic of discussion. You dare slander him and the ranger forums?

The point is, as a side noder boonbeast is (was?) the ultimate thing.

But: Condi mirage should never actually die to one, can always disengage. Condi mirage can also fill more different roles like for example +1 with it's condi burst and mobility. The problem is, it does not have to choose between roles, combines damage with mobility

and

sustain. The recent patch - while nerfing - still doesn't address the main issues, but well, that is not really unexpected (and goes for boonbeast as well, as far as I can see).

The only thing I "actually" said, was that Mirage has no actual counters in the way that every other class has actual counters. I stated that long time Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage mains have been playing a class that was standardized as over-powered for so long, that they think "getting countered" is when some given class/build can actually put up a fight and drive them off a node over the course of 2 minutes. <- That is not getting countered in the way that a Thief is countered by a DH, or a Scourge is countered by a Berserker Longbow Ranger. For those Condi Mirages out there who disagree, I'd suggest that they go champ up some 1v1 practice by logging into a Herald and fighting a Condi Mirage, then come back here and tell us all about what being countered feels like, when someone can walk through you, without even needing to worry about out-playing you.

[Quadox.7834]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Flandre.2870 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Flandre.2870 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Agree on 2 3 6 7 the others are either who gives a kitten or are you out of your mind? (9)Regarding boons, I don't use chaos so I don't care, but it's funny when there are other professions with a thousand more boon access and uptime.

The only successful mirages ever including me in mATs run chaos.You can't run mirage without chaos and do well.Deceptive evasion makes the gameplay passive and creates broken interactions and unfun experienceMake the mirage a proper roamer like at the start of PoF, not the greatest duelist but can take duels not a full blown duelistspikeeverything like it is rn

"The only successful mirages ever including me in mATs run chaos."Not true.

"Deceptive evasion makes the gameplay passive and creates broken interactions and unfun experience."Correction: mirage does.

"Make the mirage a proper roamer."Yes; it's called power mirage.

EDIT: your scepter suggestions are stupid too (even though i hate the weapon).

Core mesmer will never be good, chrono will never use deceptive evasion since you have chronophantasma. IH is fine without the clone spam and deceptive evasion has many more stupid interactions, not just IH.Show me a mirage that did well in the current meta (last 6 months or so) without chaos.When it comes to mirage being a roamer look at earlier mats and how the class worked like with sword/staff build

@"phokus.8934" said:Flandre Mirage main? Wasn't he always playing SB...

Screenshot for people calling me a sb main :)

I have under 200 games on ranger, only reason i play it in mat beacuse its faceroll easy and counters mirage

Ummm.... EXCUSE YOU! @Trevor Boyer.6524 assured us all that Boonbeast doesn't come close to countering mirage multiple times across multiple threads every time Mirage or Boonbeast were ever a topic of discussion. You dare slander him and the ranger forums?

The point is, as a side noder boonbeast is (was?) the ultimate thing.

But: Condi mirage should never actually die to one, can always disengage. Condi mirage can also fill more different roles like for example +1 with it's condi burst and mobility. The problem is, it does not have to choose between roles, combines damage with mobility

and

sustain. The recent patch - while nerfing - still doesn't address the main issues, but well, that is not really unexpected (and goes for boonbeast as well, as far as I can see).

The only thing I "actually" said, was that Mirage has no actual counters in the way that every other class has actual counters. I stated that long time Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage mains have been playing a class that was standardized as over-powered for so long, that they think "getting countered" is when some given class/build can actually put up a fight and drive them off a node over the course of 2 minutes. <- That is not getting countered in the way that a Thief is countered by a DH, or a Scourge is countered by a Berserker Longbow Ranger. For those Condi Mirages out there who disagree, I'd suggest that they go champ up some 1v1 practice by logging into a Herald and fighting a Condi Mirage, then come back here and tell us all about what being countered feels like, when someone can walk through you, without even needing to worry about out-playing you.

"Thief is countered by a DH, or a Scourge is countered by a Berserker Longbow Ranger."Just wanted to jump in and say that those are completely different, because thief can disengage from the matchup.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Quadox.7834"

Before your edit, you said that "DH does not counter Thief because the Thief can run."

My good bro, so you think the DH handles the situation like this?

[Quadox.7834]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Quadox.7834"

Before your edit, you said that "DH does not counter Thief because the Thief can run."

My good bro, so you think the DH handles the situation like this?

My edit says "disengage from the matchup" which means the exact same thing in this situation.Very different from how necro usually gets countered because it can't choose matchups in the same way. Soft vs hardcounter, I would propose. (Even shatter mesmer back in the day could at least escape thief with portal). In general a roamer with less mobility should usually be able to handle one with more, which is part of why fresh air ele can never be viable.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Quadox.7834

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

[storm.3120]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Quadox.7834

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

The only 1 shadowstep/breakstun (if thief is blind and cant see the spear) to get away.20k damage in about 0.25s if thief was pulled into 5 traps and dh zerk amulet and zeal?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Odik.4587"

Naw, a good seasoned DH usually won't need to use Spear of Justice, that's more of an extra back-up mechanism. All the good DH has to do is wait & bait out the Shadowstep "because it will eventually have to Shadowstep", and then immediately follow the Thief with this combo:

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_of_Wrath
• Begin animation of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Wrath or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mighty_Blow
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judge%27s_Intervention
• Use both instant bursts https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smite_Condition and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Test_of_Faith = Dead Thief

That combo will hit a Thief for more than 20k. Even if one skill were not activated or missed, the combo would still likely deal 15k'ish, downing the Thief. The key to playing a viable DH is not by running 5 traps, you gotta play it like an alternative Core Guard.

[Mega.5791]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Condi mirage can also fill more different roles like for example +1 with it's condi burst and mobility. The problem is, it does not have to choose between roles, combines damage with mobility

and

sustain. The recent patch - while nerfing - still doesn't address the main issues, but well, that is not really unexpected (and goes for boonbeast as well, as far as I can see).Since you are talking about mobility on mirage with staff axe/x . Where is this magic mobility you are talking about . Portal is dead , no swiftness,no leaps. I'm waiting

3 free vertical teleports (Blink, 2x Jaunt), Illusionary Ambush, axe 3, staff 2? I guess you are not talking about combo finishers, but 4 of them are leaps.

Also with staff you can get quite some swiftness.

What bs is this? Tf you count ia tht randomly take anywhere or bugs out and do nothing (cant be used without target AND outside of its range). Exact same applied to axe3.You will use choas storm to run past it and pray for 3s of swiftnes? Or you want to afk in it and hope u get swiftness?"Combo finishers help to be more mobile Megametzler.5729"Staff 2 is only thing I'd use freely to move faster. The only breakstun and precious jaunt with its cd just to move around map ? Hell no .But yes,thats the only things that allow you to move faster WHILE having zero swiftness access.Soulbeast meant to be ultimate bs? Bird swiftness w/e he want/ swoop and 2 sword leaps on ~10s cd that can be used in combat and out of combat? While he has everything you said and do better 1vX than mirage? Okay...

Or, you know, remember lots of ledges on lots of maps and teleport up, though and around. Up the tower in Kyhlo, up ledges in Foefire, through walls and up ledges in Skyhammer.

Boonbeast has no way to teleport up ledges or through walls. (Smoke Assault can be used, is not part of boon beast though.) It also has less burst than condi mirage (Power soulbeast is a different matter of course). Only thief has the same offensive and defensive teleport capabilities (or more) than condi mirage.

Interesting you don't mention the 1200 range 24s CD stun breaking teleport for example. Want to have a comparison? Ele's Lightning Flash has 900 range, is a cantrip - where the others are basically useless and therefor the CD reduction isn't worth it - which gives it a usually 40s CD and doesn't break stun. Yes, it does some damage.

Or another one: Ride the Lightning is - when used for mobility - better or worse than IA? It can have a 15s CD (if it hits after a straight line), the bug potential might be the same (RtL stops at smallest ledges, does not work with smalles bumps), can be interrupted and rooted. Both have a 1200 range, IA can be cast though walls and up ledges. IA always has 20s CD, can be cast anytime, not rootable, not interruptable.

You know what? I am giving it a try later, estimating condi mirage's point-to-point mobility with ele's and maybe boonbeast's. Gonna record the times and post the results and used CDs here, on one or two maps.

As a final note: Please remember good manners. Point out what distance these mobility skills have, point out the average swiftness you can stack in fights, point out comparisons with other classes if you want to argument.

If you want to know its range feel free to use google my friend .I'm not talking about in combat mobility simply because nothing ever will be close to thief .I did mention it 'the only stunbreak' . If you are interested about skill distance you can check the wiki, i have no time for that.Ye try sourbeast and compare it to other classeses . Im pretty sure thief n1 then soulbeast then mesmer xDNot saying eles are hyper mobile tho but w/e. Laters

So I am home and did some little testing. Two remarks beforehand:

1. See the results with a little higher variance. While being familiar with both classes and it's skillsets, I did not pull off the movements perfectly. I did look a little for a realistic and reliable combo for the movements and repeated the times until I found a "low repeatable time".

2. While the results point out something, I assumed a significant advantage for mesmer: A high availability of movement CDs! While I still believe condi mirage's CDs are quite low (blink on 24s and stuff), the movement abilities on boon beast are ridiculous. I knew about sword 2, but swoop has 10s?! It is an improved Ride the Lightning at a much lower CD?! Wow, needs nerfs. Or ele buffs. But then, everybody knows lots of ele skills and CDs are still coming from core times.

So, here we go!

Sidenote: "normal" is just running without any swiftness or teleports. Imagine a necro. :wink: I forgot to do it for foefire, but... anyway. It was just meant to give some comparison.

So assuming both use their movement abilities just for movement (and not blink for stunbreak infight, stuff like that), condi mirage's mobility is much higher. However, only one-way! In case condi mirage +1s, pushes someone off point to secure the decap or even a kill, boonbeast has much lower CDs to travel back again. These results may seem a bit too harsh therefor if we wanted to consider overall efficient mobility.

The burst argument still stands next to it. Sustain is of course higher on boon beast, DPS would be interesting to have a deeper look at - but would be difficult as well, since that would be heavily dependant on the opponent.

If you have further questions or suggestions on improved movement skillchains, hit me up - if it seems relevant enough, I might test it too.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't use jaunt for the sake of mobility only.As for sword 2 are you referring to ambush? Ambush is the only thing worth it (immobilise on 3 is nice too but unreliable) on sword.

[Mega.5791]

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't use jaunt for the sake of mobility only.As for sword 2 are you referring to ambush? Ambush is the only thing worth it (immobilise on 3 is nice too but unreliable) on sword.

Yaah, I avoided using double Jaunt for that reason. I have often seen mesmers using it for quick disengages though, starting it with a Jaunt. A jaunt is like 1-2 seconds worth of running, depending on verticality, so... it really isn't that great indeed. On foefire I used it to get up those ledges, I still can't do that reliably with staff 2... maybe because I mainly play power mesmer. :tongue:

Sword 2 is only for boonbeast. The "evade backwards then jump forward" stuff.

After all, I think teleports are just greatly underestimated in their potential. This is not supposed to be an excuse for 10s swoop of course, even though that is gated by Beastmode (because so is staff 2 by weapon swap).

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"Megametzler.5729" said:

Sword 2 is only for boonbeast. The "evade backwards then jump forward" stuff.

Yeah, you're right, read that the wrong way, sorry.

[viquing.8254]

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:FINALLY.

Someone is hitting the right stuff and not blindly waving their tiny sticks.

Question though. Do you think that blind trait is too strong? The name escapes me, sadly, so I would have to go look for it.

????There are plethora of post about balancing mesmers like this one : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65258/suggestion-balancing-mesmers

[storm.3120]

@Megametzler.5729 said:And I meant overall efficent mobility as you said. His cd way lower to move around map to cover distance between point and whatnot.Edited: removed everything ,basically that doesnt matter anymore ekstee

[Mega.5791]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Mate do you realize, for mesmer blink and jaunt is super important and will never be used just for mobility ? Unless your presence is crucial in current situation so you can burn it . Soulbeast can do this whenever he want . Also the f**k is IA? (You count this thing that cant be used w/o target and put u into random places ...still...? xD)And I meant overall efficent mobility as you said. His cd way lower to move around map to cover distance between point and whatnot.Mesmer use very precious resources as the only breakstun,staff 2 is w/e tbh, JAUNT is not something you want to use for 'mobility' . While cmirage about to get deleted and soulbeast slightly touched (I think so?)

I mentioned all this above. And - because you really hold a grudge against IA - I included all tests without IA too. I also included IA only so far until you yourself could pick the target, not pretargeted for longer range teleports. Swoop by the way. is also quite hard to use from time to time (the skyhammer stairways and that hole in the ground got me once lol). So both variants are not completely error-proof.

Teleports are still being extremely underestimated. And for lots of situations, 24s is enough for mobility if you want to decide fights. Or use it to start the disengage/point swap out of a stun or up a ledge or something (which is how I usually used them, obviously). I did point out the lower CDs and that might make "effective mobility" a different matter, it is much harder to evaluate this because that depends on team compositions, situation and all that. Numbers don't lie.

So while I really didn't want to defend boonbeast, condi mirage can move from point to point more easily in many cases. Yes, the lower CDs kind of relativise that though, I totally agree.

I am curious how the nerfs will affect both condi mirage's and boonbeast's overall performance. Most of the changes seem weird, but... well, I guess we all got used to that by now. :wink:

[storm.3120]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Mate do you realize, for mesmer blink and jaunt is super important and will never be used just for mobility ? Unless your presence is crucial in current situation so you can burn it . Soulbeast can do this whenever he want . Also the f**k is IA? (You count this thing that cant be used w/o target and put u into random places ...still...? xD)And I meant overall efficent mobility as you said. His cd way lower to move around map to cover distance between point and whatnot.Mesmer use very precious resources as the only breakstun,staff 2 is w/e tbh, JAUNT is not something you want to use for 'mobility' . While cmirage about to get deleted and soulbeast slightly touched (I think so?)

I mentioned all this above. And - because you really hold a grudge against IA - I included all tests without IA too. I also included IA only so far until you yourself could pick the target, not pretargeted for longer range teleports. Swoop by the way. is also quite hard to use from time to time (the skyhammer stairways and that hole in the ground got me once lol). So both variants are not completely error-proof.

Teleports are still being extremely underestimated. And for lots of situations, 24s is enough for mobility if you want to decide fights. Or use it to start the disengage/point swap out of a stun or up a ledge or something (which is how I usually used them, obviously). I did point out the lower CDs and that might make "effective mobility" a different matter, it is much harder to evaluate this because that depends on team compositions, situation and all that. Numbers don't lie.

So while I really didn't want to defend boonbeast, condi mirage

can

move from point to point more easily in many cases. Yes, the lower CDs kind of relativise that though, I totally agree.

I am curious how the nerfs will affect both condi mirage's and boonbeast's overall performance. Most of the changes seem weird, but... well, I guess we all got used to that by now. :wink:p.s you still underestimate investement from mirage into such 'mobility' . Even sword ambush will be a huge because you waste your endurance (and sword became pretty much bad for mirage so its dropped, without this OP axe ambush people refuse to die ,holos ,soulbeasts etc) We will see after patch ;)My prediction is : cmirage dead ,doesnt exist ,some masochists will play it for sure. Soulbeast is new cmirage ,2 per team. xD

[incisorr.9502]

@"Dreddo.9865" said:Luckily there are some honest people speaking the truth for this busted class. Even more valuable when such comments come from a top player.

not really, shes just being biased

Flandre plays staff so she wants every other weapon nerfed but staff is untouched when the biggest "frustration" from fighting mesmer is quite literally the staff itself. The difference is she doesn't like scepter and never got used to playing it while i have played with staff but i don't use it because they're 2 different styles of weapons and focus on a different thing and staff doesn't fit me

the bounces from staff auto and the illusions spamming them is passive damage which is unfun to play with or against

axe mirage is dead anyway after their planned changes , not as dead as gw2 will be after they butcher yet another class due to peer pressure from the vocal minority on the forum and 2-3 streamers

[dominik.9721]

@incisorr.9502 said:

@"Dreddo.9865" said:Luckily there are some honest people speaking the truth for this busted class. Even more valuable when such comments come from a top player.

not really, shes just being biased

Flandre plays staff so she wants every other weapon nerfed but staff is untouched when the biggest "frustration" from fighting mesmer is quite literally the staff itself. The difference is she doesn't like scepter and never got used to playing it while i have played with staff but i don't use it because they're 2 different styles of weapons and focus on a different thing and staff doesn't fit me

the bounces from staff auto and the illusions spamming them is passive damage which is unfun to play with or against

axe mirage is dead anyway after their planned changes , not as dead as gw2 will be after they butcher yet another class due to peer pressure from the vocal minority on the forum and 2-3 streamers

local minority is actually you.typing walls of texts because you know, once you can't play busted mirage you will be 10x times worse and irrelevant again like you used to be before mirage.

[Quadox.7834]

@incisorr.9502 said:

@"Dreddo.9865" said:Luckily there are some honest people speaking the truth for this busted class. Even more valuable when such comments come from a top player.

not really, shes just being biased

Flandre plays staff so she wants every other weapon nerfed but staff is untouched when the biggest "frustration" from fighting mesmer is quite literally the staff itself. The difference is she doesn't like scepter and never got used to playing it while i have played with staff but i don't use it because they're 2 different styles of weapons and focus on a different thing and staff doesn't fit me

the bounces from staff auto and the illusions spamming them is passive damage which is unfun to play with or against

axe mirage is dead anyway after their planned changes , not as dead as gw2 will be after they butcher yet another class due to peer pressure from the vocal minority on the forum and 2-3 streamers

If Flandre was biased toward chaos Mirage and staff why would they suggest "5.chaos traitline is cancer, reduce boon duration down the line including the chaos armor prot trait" or "2.chaotic interruption- this needs to go too, absolute cancer".