Deadeye DPS Checks

[Nitron.6405]

I did some DPS checks in the Special Forces Training Area on the "Weak Enemy (1,000,000 HP)" golem. I was running full ascended berserker gear with scholar runes and 14 +5 power infusions w/ a sigil of force on each weapon set used. Here are my findings:

DPS Checks:Deadly Arts | Critical Strikes | Deadeye

Deadeye - P/P:No Buffs: ~7.5kBuffs: ~16k

Deadeye - Rifle:No Buffs: ~8.7kBuffs: ~22k

Deadeye - P/P|Rifle rotation:No Buffs: ~7.8kBuffs: ~17k

Deadeye - D/D:No Buffs: ~9.9kBuffs: ~24.8k

Deadly Arts | Critical Strikes | Daredevil

Daredevil - Staff:No Buffs: ~9.4kBuffs: ~23.9k

Daredevil - P/P:No Buffs: ~6.9kBuffs: ~15.5k

Daredevil - D/D:No Buffs: ~8.1kBuffs: ~20.9k

EDIT:For reference, here's what I got for my Scourge running full ascended viper's gear with runes of the berserker + sigil of torment and sigil of smoldering.Curses | Soul Reaping | Scourge

Scourge - Scepter/Torch:No Buffs: ~11.1kBuffs: ~21.6k

Firebrand running full ascended viper's gear with runes of balthazar + Sigil of Smoldering.Radiance | Zeal | Firebrand

Firebrand - Axe/Torch:No Buffs: ~ 8.2kBuffs: ~20.2k

[Nitron.6405]

Critical Strikes | Deadly Arts | Deadeye/Daredevil

[Doctor Hide.6345]

So, it's not that far behind DD. A little tweeking in damage for rifle and it will be up there.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

I'm not trying to be snarky and I certainly don't want to sound rude but I think you might not be doing the rotation of staff daredevil correctly. I guess it depends on what you mean by buffs. Using all buffs it's just shy of or over 30k.

[LazerusKI.7485]

Would be interesting to know the exact rotation you used or a video where you show that.From what i have experienced so far P/P were far stronger than Rifle, no matter what i do, since the energy efficiency is far superior and Unload Burst allready starts at very high numbers (in the first 3-4s i can deal more damage with unload than i can with DJ after 10s)so...how? where is the secret?

[Vindicus.2130]

I was able to get 25k out of deadeye rifle + d/x by farming dagger autoattack while malice built for DJs on rifle. I was able to get 33k out of my unoptimized scourge farming scepter/torch. Got 27k out of my firebrand but didn't really know what I was doing tbh, just mashing buttons.

[Oxygen.5918]

This data is worthless without knowing about your rotation and traits.

[Nitron.6405]

@Oxygen.5918 said:This data is worthless without knowing about your rotation and traits.

I'll throw a vid up when I get the time.

[Despond.2174]

DD staff is much better.

[chronometria.3708]

If they made the initiative costs more reasonable, or added a refund ability to rifle, then maybe things would work. The big problem I have with rifle is that the damage stops completely due to initiative starvation, whereas with pistol, or say, druid longbow, I can keep shooting constantly and get to move while I do it.

Maybe if kneel gave some sort of initiative refund on successful hits or something like that. Especially as it costs initiative itself and often stops me pulling off a much needed deaths judgement.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I tested it on another thread. No food, unrealistic buffs. Due to the way executioner works the overall DPS starts at 29k, but ends at 30.5k. You get these numbers whether you use Maleficent Seven or Be Quick or Be Killed. The rotation is basically just standing behind the golem and using backstab, until 25% health in which case you just spam heartseeker. Just using dagger auto starts at 27.5k and ends at 29k.

The daredevil rotation is a bit more chaotic, so I don't end up with stable numbers. In general it hangs around 30k DPS, but I have gotten spikes of 31k. Overall, the Deadeye and the Daredevil are actually fairly well balanced. In a lab, anyway. And doing power damage.

EDIT: Might as well post the build.

Full berserker. Scholar Runes. Sigil of Force + Air.

Deadly Arts: Mug, Revealed Training (Panic Strikes for Daredevil), ExecutionerCritical Strikes: Twin Fangs, Practiced Tolerance, No QuarterDeadeye: Iron Sight, Unforgiving, Be Quick or Be Killed.Daredevil: Havoc Mastery, Staff Mastery, Bounding Dodger.

Utilities: Shadow Flare, Assassin's Signet, Signet of Agility. Daredevil used Fist Flurry.

[eldrjth.7384]

So these are sustained dmg? I find it hard to believe that rifle would perform better than pistol because unload cost 3 initiative effectively compared to 4 for 3rb or 6 for DJ. Since initiative regen is constant I think the weapon set that is most efficient with initiative would be better. Staff DD can put up those dmg number continuously cause its auto attack is so good whereas Pistols/Rifle cant. Also did you do the dps test with kneeling for rifle on? that is also pretty unrealistic scenario imo.

I also think that the marked target duration should be longer than the cooldown of the power to ensure you get the initiative return for mercy which isnt the case unless you delay deadeye's mark by 6s or so.

[BoX Legend.4027]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I tested it on another thread. No food, unrealistic buffs. Due to the way executioner works the overall DPS starts at 29k, but ends at 30.5k. You get these numbers whether you use Maleficent Seven or Be Quick or Be Killed. The rotation is basically just standing behind the golem and using backstab, until 25% health in which case you just spam heartseeker. Just using dagger auto starts at 27.5k and ends at 29k.

The daredevil rotation is a bit more chaotic, so I don't end up with stable numbers. In general it hangs around 30k DPS, but I have gotten spikes of 31k. Overall, the Deadeye and the Daredevil are actually fairly well balanced. In a lab, anyway. And doing power damage.

EDIT: Might as well post the build.

Full berserker. Scholar Runes. Sigil of Force + Air.

Deadly Arts: Mug, Revealed Training (Panic Strikes for Daredevil), ExecutionerCritical Strikes: Twin Fangs, Practiced Tolerance, No QuarterDeadeye: Iron Sight, Unforgiving, Be Quick or Be Killed.Daredevil: Havoc Mastery, Staff Mastery, Bounding Dodger.

Utilities: Shadow Flare, Assassin's Signet, Signet of Agility. Daredevil used Fist Flurry.

I'd like to add that this only works under the assumption you have perma-quickness; i.e. meta raid scenario. Without quickness you lose a lot of dps because of deadeyes final trait. Have you tried the same, but with D/D deadeye vs Staff daredevil?

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I tested it on another thread. No food, unrealistic buffs. Due to the way executioner works the overall DPS starts at 29k, but ends at 30.5k. You get these numbers whether you use Maleficent Seven or Be Quick or Be Killed. The rotation is basically just standing behind the golem and using backstab, until 25% health in which case you just spam heartseeker. Just using dagger auto starts at 27.5k and ends at 29k.

The daredevil rotation is a bit more chaotic, so I don't end up with stable numbers. In general it hangs around 30k DPS, but I have gotten spikes of 31k. Overall, the Deadeye and the Daredevil are actually fairly well balanced. In a lab, anyway. And doing power damage.

EDIT: Might as well post the build.

Full berserker. Scholar Runes. Sigil of Force + Air.

Deadly Arts: Mug, Revealed Training (Panic Strikes for Daredevil), ExecutionerCritical Strikes: Twin Fangs, Practiced Tolerance, No QuarterDeadeye: Iron Sight, Unforgiving, Be Quick or Be Killed.Daredevil: Havoc Mastery, Staff Mastery, Bounding Dodger.

Utilities: Shadow Flare, Assassin's Signet, Signet of Agility. Daredevil used Fist Flurry.

If I am not mistaken, there is a D/D rotation on DD that used Trickery, which outruns the simple DD Staff rotation using Deadly Arts.

You might want to try looking into the other trees to see what you can pull out. Deadly arts primarily gives damage from Executioner and Exposed Weakness.

You might have to drop this trait tree on DE to find something that synergizes more strongly.

But regardless, even if DE currently can't compete with DD in melee, it does actually make Thief a decent choice for ranged strats now. And there's also the balance changes that will be coming up. More than likely, because of Anet's patterns, DD will get neutered to make its role more defined, and DE will get buffed and hopefully some bug fixes.

Most likely... I think initiative will probably be the first thing touched on. In my experience DE can kill players and mobs very quickly with a burst using a build not optimized for damage, and well before you generate a significant amount of malice (I even forgot to install sigils on the stupid rifle). The DE does actually have a trait that allows him to generate malice at a much faster rate if he hinges around stealth. But the major problem you run into is how heavy the initiative costs are. So you can kill two players very quickly, but suddenly you're stuck in the mud because you're waiting for initiative to regen.

[Jinks.2057]

Go figure people were originally wroong....

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@BoX Legend.4027 said:I'd like to add that this only works under the assumption you have perma-quickness; i.e. meta raid scenario. Without quickness you lose a lot of dps because of deadeyes final trait. Have you tried the same, but with D/D deadeye vs Staff daredevil?

That is what I just tested. In situations with low/no quickness, Maleficent Seven would be a better choice than Be Quick or Be Killed. But with permanent quickness they perform scarily similar.

@"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:If I am not mistaken, there is a D/D rotation on DD that used Trickery, which outruns the simple DD Staff rotation using Deadly Arts.

You might want to try looking into the other trees to see what you can pull out. Deadly arts primarily gives damage from Executioner and Exposed Weakness.

You might have to drop this trait tree on DE to find something that synergizes more strongly.

Yes, the condition build. Testing the condition build, however, is very difficult to do, since venoms are dependent on having teammates, and I have no such connections. qt Clocks the condi build at around 34k dps, and I"ll have to take their word for it. There's no use comparing apples to oranges, however, as the deadeye does not have condition granting traits.

For power builds, Deadly Arts has a total of 18.3% in modifiers while Trickery caps out at 15%. Add revealed training on top of that, and there isn't a trait line that can compete with those bonuses. Critical Strikes has even more bonuses, so you can't lose that one, either.

[LtLongshot.5480]

I've actually been seeing higher DPS with the Trickery Traitline instead of Deadly arts. I'm running Zerks exotic armour and ascended weapons/trinkets so some of my numbers will be over the place.So I've got:Critical Arts: 3,2,1Trickery: 3,(doesn't matter too much),2Deadeye: 1,3,2

Reason why I'm running Trickery is due to Lead Attacks' 15% damage increase and the increased initiative to help spam being revealed for Revealed Malice to give it a really good uptime and HS spam at the end.

~23.7k with Buffs and Deadly Arts~25k with Buffs and Trickery

It seems that the extra 15% might be better than +200 power but it shouldn't be better than the +20% damage executioner gives. Possibly this is due to the extra initiative I got to work with.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Crap, I never took revealed malice. I keep forgetting that trait exists. Oh well, maybe another day.

[Asur.9178]

This is one of the worst testing and results presentation I've ever seen. All of this is meaningless.

[Saraneth.6021]

@Asur.9178 said:This is one of the worst testing and results presentation I've ever seen. All of this is meaningless.

At least he is trying. Maybe you could give some advice on how he could do it better and have it be more meaningful?

[LazerusKI.7485]

@eldrjth.7384 said:So these are sustained dmg? I find it hard to believe that rifle would perform better than pistol because unload cost 3 initiative effectively compared to 4 for 3rb or 6 for DJ. Since initiative regen is constant I think the weapon set that is most efficient with initiative would be better. Staff DD can put up those dmg number continuously cause its auto attack is so good whereas Pistols/Rifle cant. Also did you do the dps test with kneeling for rifle on? that is also pretty unrealistic scenario imo.

I also think that the marked target duration should be longer than the cooldown of the power to ensure you get the initiative return for mercy which isnt the case unless you delay deadeye's mark by 6s or so.pistols actually perform way better, in my case Rifle Autoattack hits for around 2.5k, TRB for 5k and DJ for 16k. Meanwhile Unload hits for 8-10k before i have might, costs only a fraction of a Rifle rotation, gives me buffs while dealing my main damage, lets me stay mobile...and of course they profit from malice too.I cant see a single point where rifle in pve could outperform pistols or even daggers. in pvp sure, but only in rare scenarios

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I tested it on another thread. No food, unrealistic buffs. Due to the way executioner works the overall DPS starts at 29k, but ends at 30.5k. You get these numbers whether you use Maleficent Seven or Be Quick or Be Killed. The rotation is basically just standing behind the golem and using backstab, until 25% health in which case you just spam heartseeker. Just using dagger auto starts at 27.5k and ends at 29k.

The daredevil rotation is a bit more chaotic, so I don't end up with stable numbers. In general it hangs around 30k DPS, but I have gotten spikes of 31k. Overall, the Deadeye and the Daredevil are actually fairly well balanced. In a lab, anyway. And doing power damage.

EDIT: Might as well post the build.

Full berserker. Scholar Runes. Sigil of Force + Air.

Deadly Arts: Mug, Revealed Training (Panic Strikes for Daredevil), ExecutionerCritical Strikes: Twin Fangs, Practiced Tolerance, No QuarterDeadeye: Iron Sight, Unforgiving, Be Quick or Be Killed.Daredevil: Havoc Mastery, Staff Mastery, Bounding Dodger.

Utilities: Shadow Flare, Assassin's Signet, Signet of Agility. Daredevil used Fist Flurry.

If I am not mistaken, there is a D/D rotation on DD that used Trickery, which outruns the simple DD Staff rotation using Deadly Arts.

You might want to try looking into the other trees to see what you can pull out. Deadly arts primarily gives damage from Executioner and Exposed Weakness.

You might have to drop this trait tree on DE to find something that synergizes more strongly.

But regardless, even if DE currently can't compete with DD in melee, it does actually make Thief a decent choice for ranged strats now. And there's also the balance changes that will be coming up. More than likely, because of Anet's patterns, DD will get neutered to make its role more defined, and DE will get buffed and hopefully some bug fixes.

Most likely... I think initiative will probably be the first thing touched on. In my experience DE can kill players and mobs very quickly with a burst using a build not optimized for damage, and well before you generate a significant amount of malice (I even forgot to install sigils on the stupid rifle). The DE does actually have a trait that allows him to generate malice at a much faster rate if he hinges around stealth. But the major problem you run into is how heavy the initiative costs are.

So you can kill two players very quickly

, but suddenly you're stuck in the mud because you're waiting for initiative to regen.PLAYERS. Killing a Player isnt hard as a thief, there are enough builds that take just a few skills to kill a player without giving them an option to even react when you ambush them. Just because Rifle can do that too doesnt mean that its actually good or better. As you said...initiative is a problem, and in pve its not just that. In pve we need to fight multiple enemies at once all the time, so high singletarget damage with a high chargeup time is useless, especially when half of them can pull and force you out of the kneeling stance.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm in way too much pain to spend several hours making a video while trying to get a flawless latency free damage rotation with half a dozen slight variations of the same build. Also I'm never going to spend 1000 gold just to get the stat bonuses off of infusions. The last two times I tried to install an add-on they wouldn't run properly.

The lesson of the day is this: If you don't like how things are done, do them yourself.

[Aomine.5012]

A screenshot is better than some weird numbers.

Sure, not the highest number in raid or anything, but it's the highest true range attack. (Ground Target circle spamming doesn't count as range attack to me though since if target moves, you lose all the damage, defeating the purpose of range attack)

Using some other weapon as deadeye may hit harder I guess? Not sure.

[LazerusKI.7485]

@Aomine.5012 said:

A screenshot is better than some weird numbers.

Sure, not the highest number in raid or anything, but it's the highest true range attack. (Ground Target circle spamming doesn't count as range attack to me though since if target moves, you lose all the damage, defeating the purpose of range attack)

Using some other weapon as deadeye may hit harder I guess? Not sure.

and that for a spec that was meant to basically be a ranged fighter with melee-high damage as trade for his mobility.

[Nitron.6405]

@Asur.9178 said:This is one of the worst testing and results presentation I've ever seen. All of this is meaningless.

I more or less just wanted to get the conversation rolling. You're perfectly welcome to test yourself and post the results for others to see.