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Engineer healers need an update


tigirius.9014

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I play both guard and engi as healers and I've noticed that the engineer is missing alot of mechanics enjoyed by other healers (I play also rev and druid)

Things I've noticed that are missing in traits and skills include:

AOE healing fields that help engineers who are downedAOE healing fields that affect downed players while resurrecting oneAOE Shields that protect while downed ( holosmith? )Light fields when dodging (traited option would be awesome, light fields remove conditions)Regeneration fields that instantly heal the lowest hitpoint person in a party using up all of the heals over timeNowhere near the number of condition removal fields that other classes have (druids - have seeds with glyphs/ guardians - have seals with meditations)There isn't a turret trait that provides a secondary heal effect when traited (much like the new mechanic for the guardian bow)There still isn't a boon generation trait for the gadgets making engineers weakerThe options to make bombs double as heal aoe attacks should be returned now that two new expansions have updated how mechanics work on other classes

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I tried to make a healing/support engi work for a long time but unless there are some major changes it won't be anything above mediocre comparing it to other classes (especially Firebrand, the amount of extra support that spec brings is awesome).

One thing people have been asking for is a good rework for Med Kit. There's been some good ideas thrown around but IMO what would make it ideal is if it brought a medium sized water field for blasting and some group resistance, and then go from there. Unless Med Kit spammed 5k heals per second not having a water field will instantly kill Med Kit's option IMO as water fields (especially in WvW) are very important.

I think our cleanse is decent but it could be better. taking EG and Elixir C is pretty good for mitigating condi's but the amount of bursts there are now conditions get reapplied so fast its hard to keep up. Comparing this to a Firebrand support where you can have so many cleanses available you could emote while getting condi bombed and live.

Personally I don't think we need another dodge option as Explosives and Holosmith already have 1 trait each dedicated to dodging, and though they are attack based and not support I think there could be something better than adding another dodge oriented trait.

As for the "When you start reviving a downed player use 'x' skill to help revive" That one is easy, they could add to a trait that just drops an Elixir R (Tossed version) on anyone you start to revive.

Personally I'd like to see the support engi be able to bring big heals and regen and keep the same amount of cleanse, and even bring in the Barrier mechanic to core engineer for "Overhealing". I was EXTREMELY disappointed that NONE of the core classes got any access to the new barrier mechanic, and even out of the new specs only Scourge can really take advantage of it well enough to call it support.

And this is just my personal opinion but based on how Engineer has been dealt with before, I don't see us getting any reworks to buff support to where it actually competes with other support oriented builds (Guard/Firebrand/Druid/Ele/Tempest etc).

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@tigirius.9014 said:AOE healing fields that help engineers who are downedAOE healing fields that affect downed players while resurrecting oneAOE Shields that protect while downed ( holosmith? )Scrapper's function gyro lets us revive at range and Elixir R can be thrown to pick people up, including yourself. If every profession revived the same way when invested the game would be boring. This makes us more equivalent to a Druid's downstate support (i.e. I'll just get my dog to do it instead)

Light fields when dodging (traited option would be awesome, light fields remove conditions)Would run counter intuitive to our current dodge roll traits (evasive powder keg/minesweeper and thermal release valve), which serve the same purpose but currently feel a little bit off simply because they're aimed differently.

Regeneration fields that instantly heal the lowest hitpoint person in a party using up all of the heals over timeThat's... That's oddly specific.

Nowhere near the number of condition removal fields that other classes have (druids - have seeds with glyphs/ guardians - have seals with meditations)Elixir R, Elixir C, Super Elixir, Flash Shell, Purge Gyro, Healing Turret, Supply Crate (due to the complimentary healing turret) and Med Pack drop. You can add all thrown elixirs, healing mist and Elixir Shell to that list if running Alchemical Tinctures. We're not short on sources of AoE cleanses, but you can never have enough AoE cleanses. But much like a Druid, we don't have many useful sources of AoE Cleanses (Brown bear and Signet of Renewal can cleanse all condis in an area at the cost of your profession mechanic) and Elixirs tend to be very costly to our skill bar and on a medium cooldown unlike a Druid's low cooldown glyphs.

There isn't a turret trait that provides a secondary heal effect when traited (much like the new mechanic for the guardian bow)Again that's oddly specific, especially since we already have a turret whose entire purpose is to dispense heals and a trait to make them heal when they blow up if we're standing on a field.

There still isn't a boon generation trait for the gadgets making engineers weakerThat is because turrets, elixirs, gyros and kits already do this. Gadgets are not support engineer skills, they are a unique effects skill type, like survival, deception or physical skills, so they have to be judged for their support value on an individual basis.

The options to make bombs double as heal aoe attacks should be returned now that two new expansions have updated how mechanics work on other classesYep, I definitely miss elixir packed explosives. Was a lot more fun a trait than the current short fuse trait, but a healing trait in explosives or an bomb trait in elixirs isn't clear to the concept of the specialisations. I'd guess this is why we have the much less specific soothing detonation.

The real issue with the support engineer is that it wants to take too many things that all compete with one another. Druid can make a proper support build that has internal synergies. Engineer doesn't really have that, instead they have fake skill choices like Med kit. Engineer elite skills aren't terrible like a Druid's either. Elixir X, Supply Crate, Mortar Kit and Sneak Gyro all have plenty of value to a support engi.

Support Engineer would be solid if med kit was reworked to be a real skill and not a toolbelt skill for a TRV+Static Discharge Holosmith.

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Nowhere near the number of condition removal fields that other classes have (druids - have seeds with glyphs/ guardians - have seals with meditations)Elixir R, Elixir C, Super Elixir, Flash Shell, Purge Gyro, Healing Turret, Supply Crate (due to the complimentary healing turret) and Med Pack drop. You can add all thrown elixirs, healing mist and Elixir Shell to that list if running Alchemical Tinctures. We're not short on sources of AoE cleanses, but you can never have enough AoE cleanses. But much like a Druid, we don't have many useful sources of AoE Cleanses (Brown bear and Signet of Renewal can cleanse all condis in an area at the cost of your profession mechanic) and Elixirs tend to be very costly to our skill bar and on a medium cooldown unlike a Druid's low cooldown glyphs.

Purge Gyro only targets 1 person and the first person is always the player so that's not AoE and any elixir that isn't a toss also only affects the player so those don't count either for AoE group cleansing. Crate and med pack drop are on too long of CD's to be really taken seriously and any of the other elixirs taken with alchemy for the GM minor only convert a laughable 1 condi as well as Super Elixir so for PvP/WvW purposes they are next to useless. Also HT requires you to consume your heal skill to cleanse if need be. Healing Mist is more valuable as a stunbreak and still that only cures 1 condi as well. So really compared to other classes out AoE cleansing is subpar. Take Guardian for example and the new Firebrand elite spec. They can cleanse the same amount of conditions in 1 or 2 abilities as much as a engi can cleanse in using 4+ abilities and on a much shorter CD.

Druid on the other hand though while not having that good of cleansing either but they can bring very high healing reliably and on a short time frame, which engi cannot do unless they use their HT.

These are some of the reasons why its very hard to make a good support build, because we can't do either of these things well enough to warrant it.

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I tried a full healing spec and it is terrible, we seem to have a lot of skills that are good for passive regen however doesn't end up being much for allies usually 300 hp per second on average and the radius range for allies get our passive regen is far too small. The only thing that might have been worth taking on a full healing spec was healing turret, I can't remember how much heal (it's been a month-) but it was a good chunk of instant heal.

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@Shoyoko.7309 said:I tried a full healing spec and it is terrible, we seem to have a lot of skills that are good for passive regen however doesn't end up being much for allies usually 300 hp per second on average and the radius range for allies get our passive regen is far too small. The only thing that might have been worth taking on a full healing spec was healing turret, I can't remember how much heal (it's been a month-) but it was a good chuck of instant heal.

On the full heal spec I ran HT could pump out a 10k+ burst heal with the water field blast included.

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@HotHit.6783 said:

@tigirius.9014 said:AOE healing fields that help engineers who are downedAOE healing fields that affect downed players while resurrecting oneAOE Shields that protect while downed ( holosmith? )Scrapper's function gyro lets us revive at range and Elixir R can be thrown to pick people up, including yourself. If every profession revived the same way when invested the game would be boring. This makes us more equivalent to a Druid's downstate support (i.e. I'll just get my dog to do it instead)

Scrapper allows for the rezzing of others but it doesn't allow for the rezzing of self, my point is that there's no option to rez self in the downed state nor is there a trait that allows for this to happen while downed unlike the other classes who get to enjoy that. Guards have a trait to cause an auto AOE heal field while downed or while rezzing others, Blood well for necros exist, They also have skills on the downed state to help with that, druids enjoy the help of their pets while engis can't enjoy the help of their turrets or gyros. There's no consistancy.

Light fields when dodging (traited option would be awesome, light fields remove conditions)Would run counter intuitive to our current dodge roll traits (evasive powder keg/minesweeper and thermal release valve), which serve the same purpose but currently feel a little bit off simply because they're aimed differently.

None of those traits for dodging provide an AOE cleanse even with the weapon sigil or the trait to cause an AOE cleans with the sigil to AOE heal periodically.

Regeneration fields that instantly heal the lowest hitpoint person in a party using up all of the heals over timeThat's... That's oddly specific.

It's specific because it is a mechanic that's been used by other games for years on healers as an option, a trait, a choice to make healing effects work more efficiently.

Nowhere near the number of condition removal fields that other classes have (druids - have seeds with glyphs/ guardians - have seals with meditations)Elixir R, Elixir C, Super Elixir, Flash Shell, Purge Gyro, Healing Turret, Supply Crate (due to the complimentary healing turret) and Med Pack drop. You can add all thrown elixirs, healing mist and Elixir Shell to that list if running Alchemical Tinctures. We're not short on sources of AoE cleanses, but you can never have enough AoE cleanses. But much like a Druid, we don't have many useful sources of AoE Cleanses (Brown bear and Signet of Renewal can cleanse all condis in an area at the cost of your profession mechanic) and Elixirs tend to be very costly to our skill bar and on a medium cooldown unlike a Druid's low cooldown glyphs.

Again the size of the elixir splash is not the same as having conditions removed with normal AOE attacks such as those from grenades bombs or Mortar attacks. That would be the solution is to allow the AOE fields for these attacks that engineers who are condi engis to remove conditions in an AOE field just like what's done with Necro Runes for example.

There isn't a turret trait that provides a secondary heal effect when traited (much like the new mechanic for the guardian bow)Again that's oddly specific, especially since we already have a turret whose entire purpose is to dispense heals and a trait to make them heal when they blow up if we're standing on a field.

Healing turrets do not dispense heals they dispense regeneration which is so not the same thing.

There still isn't a boon generation trait for the gadgets making engineers weakerThat is because turrets, elixirs, gyros and kits already do this. Gadgets are not support engineer skills, they are a unique effects skill type, like survival, deception or physical skills, so they have to be judged for their support value on an individual basis.

Turrets do not dispense cleanses I've played since beta there is not a trait anywhere that makes the healing turret remove conditions. There is only 1 Gyro that removes conditions and sure it has a short cooldown but that does not compare to traits that make normal weapon attacks remove conditions on say the necro glyphs or the guardian seals or the druid seeds. See the difference?

The options to make bombs double as heal aoe attacks should be returned now that two new expansions have updated how mechanics work on other classesYep, I definitely miss elixir packed explosives. Was a lot more fun a trait than the current short fuse trait, but a healing trait in explosives or an bomb trait in elixirs isn't clear to the concept of the specialisations. I'd guess this is why we have the much less specific soothing detonation.

The real issue with the support engineer is that it wants to take too many things that all compete with one another. Druid can make a proper support build that has internal synergies. Engineer doesn't really have that, instead they have fake skill choices like Med kit. Engineer elite skills aren't terrible like a Druid's either. Elixir X, Supply Crate, Mortar Kit and Sneak Gyro all have plenty of value to a support engi.

Support Engineer would be solid if med kit was reworked to be a real skill and not a toolbelt skill for a TRV+Static Discharge Holosmith.

If you haven't noticed elixirs have been gimped for some time as well. For some reason the field size for elixir tosses are tiny they aren't even the AOE size of the bombs or mines, they don't come anywhere near the size of the seals that necros and guards enjoy or even the seals on the druid.

The argument about making all classes the same is irrelevant and here's why:This isn't asking to make all the classes the same it's a post about making healing roles consistent.For some reason, and this is noticeable by anyone who takes the time to be objective, engineers have been left behind when it comes to balance. They were behind before the explansions came out in the original series of traits and since there have been two other expansions with new traits not just for the engineer but for other classes as well, the need for major updates to get this class closer to the rest in capability and balance in both traits and skills on the original traits and skills is going to be a large undertaking. Apologists need not slow this down just because they think everything is fine despite the evidence otherwise.

False statements about the abilities of the class are not arguments and should not be used to stop progress of a class that's been left behind overall by the balance team in several ways

My point is that there should be consistency in the balance and there's not. There's not even an option for many of these things for engineers in the form of runesets or sigils to cause these effects. So really we don't even have the choice to effect change to our builds to make these things happen for us. That's not diversity that's restriction and a severe lack of freedom. It will not make Engineers op to be on the same playing field as other classes.

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@Arimas.3492 said:

@Shoyoko.7309 said:I tried a full healing spec and it is terrible, we seem to have a lot of skills that are good for passive regen however doesn't end up being much for allies usually 300 hp per second on average and the radius range for allies get our passive regen is far too small. The only thing that might have been worth taking on a full healing spec was healing turret, I can't remember how much heal (it's been a month-) but it was a good chuck of instant heal.

On the full heal spec I ran HT could pump out a 10k+ burst heal with the water field blast included.

Which only happens once since the changes made to the turret.

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@Shoyoko.7309 said:I tried a full healing spec and it is terrible, we seem to have a lot of skills that are good for passive regen however doesn't end up being much for allies usually 300 hp per second on average and the radius range for allies get our passive regen is far too small. The only thing that might have been worth taking on a full healing spec was healing turret, I can't remember how much heal (it's been a month-) but it was a good chunk of instant heal.

Sadly we can only use the overload once per turret. It's not even worth it to leave the healing turret down now exploding it instantly is the best way to go because regen is so gimped.

Sadly the only way these things are going to change is if the balance team takes this class seriously again.

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@tigirius.9014 said:

@Shoyoko.7309 said:I tried a full healing spec and it is terrible, we seem to have a lot of skills that are good for passive regen however doesn't end up being much for allies usually 300 hp per second on average and the radius range for allies get our passive regen is far too small. The only thing that might have been worth taking on a full healing spec was healing turret, I can't remember how much heal (it's been a month-) but it was a good chunk of instant heal.

Sadly we can only use the overload once per turret. It's not even worth it to leave the healing turret down now exploding it instantly is the best way to go because regen is so kitten.

Sadly the only way these things are going to change is if the balance team takes this class seriously again.

Couldn't agree more =/

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Tigrius, I'm not trying to argue that Engineer doesn't need better supportive tools. But stating things that are factually incorrect and whining that other professions can do things you can't doesn't help the situation. Professions doing different things is the point of professions.

@tigirius.9014 said:

@HotHit.6783 said:

@tigirius.9014 said:AOE healing fields that help engineers who are downedAOE healing fields that affect downed players while resurrecting oneAOE Shields that protect while downed ( holosmith? )Scrapper's function gyro lets us revive at range and Elixir R can be thrown to pick people up, including yourself. If every profession revived the same way when invested the game would be boring. This makes us more equivalent to a Druid's downstate support (i.e. I'll just get my dog to do it instead)

Scrapper allows for the rezzing of others but it doesn't allow for the rezzing of self, my point is that there's no option to rez self in the downed state nor is there a trait that allows for this to happen while downed unlike the other classes who get to enjoy that. Guards have a trait to cause an auto AOE heal field while downed or while rezzing others, Blood well for necros exist, They also have skills on the downed state to help with that, druids enjoy the help of their pets while engis can't enjoy the help of their turrets or gyros. There's no consistancy.
Then your problem is that Engineers have weak downed states and no traits to improve it. Every profession has their own skills and traits that affect their ability to revive others, each one does something different and that includes engineer. Rangers have the help of their pets while in down state because that is their profession mechanic and Lick Wounds is their downed skill 3. Engineers can still have turrets deployed while downed, just like Eles can have AoEs rolling and Necros can have Minions swarming. Engineers' weak downed state is not an issue with engineer healers.

Light fields when dodging (traited option would be awesome, light fields remove conditions)Would run counter intuitive to our current dodge roll traits (evasive powder keg/minesweeper and thermal release valve), which serve the same purpose but currently feel a little bit off simply because they're aimed differently.

None of those traits for dodging provide an AOE cleanse even with the weapon sigil or the trait to cause an AOE cleans with the sigil to AOE heal periodically.
There are plenty of ways to attain condi cleanses and plenty more ways in which Engineers could gain in the future. Why is, specifically, cleansing on dodge such an essential feature? Why should our dodges use the same effects as Rangers or revenants, while also sharing the same dodge trait style of thieves and Warriors? There are plenty other ways to add light fields to our profession.

Nowhere near the number of condition removal fields that other classes have (druids - have seeds with glyphs/ guardians - have seals with meditations)Elixir R, Elixir C, Super Elixir, Flash Shell, Purge Gyro, Healing Turret, Supply Crate (due to the complimentary healing turret) and Med Pack drop. You can add all thrown elixirs, healing mist and Elixir Shell to that list if running Alchemical Tinctures. We're not short on sources of AoE cleanses, but you can never have enough AoE cleanses. But much like a Druid, we don't have many useful sources of AoE Cleanses (Brown bear and Signet of Renewal can cleanse all condis in an area at the cost of your profession mechanic) and Elixirs tend to be very costly to our skill bar and on a medium cooldown unlike a Druid's low cooldown glyphs.
Again the size of the elixir splash is not the same as having conditions removed with normal AOE attacks such as those from grenades bombs or Mortar attacks. That would be the solution is to allow the AOE fields for these attacks that engineers who are condi engis to remove conditions in an AOE field just like what's done with Necro Runes for example.
Necromancer runes, marks, wells and shade skills don't remove conditions. Specific skills among those skill groups remove conditions, but that is the primary function of those individual skills. I'm unsure if you're asking for bigger splashes on Elixir throwing or a generic trait that makes grenade skills cleanse conditions. The latter is likely never going to happen.

There isn't a turret trait that provides a secondary heal effect when traited (much like the new mechanic for the guardian bow)Again that's oddly specific, especially since we already have a turret whose entire purpose is to dispense heals and a trait to make them heal when they blow up if we're standing on a field.
Healing turrets do not dispense heals they dispense regeneration which is so not the same thing.

There still isn't a boon generation trait for the gadgets making engineers weakerThat is because turrets, elixirs, gyros and kits already do this. Gadgets are not support engineer skills, they are a unique effects skill type, like survival, deception or physical skills, so they have to be judged for their support value on an individual basis.

Turrets do not dispense cleanses I've played since beta there is not a trait anywhere that makes the healing turret remove conditions. There is only 1 Gyro that removes conditions and sure it has a short cooldown but that does not compare to traits that make normal weapon attacks remove conditions on say the necro glyphs or the guardian seals or the druid seeds. See the difference?
I was responding to your comment about gadget boon generation there. But again:
Necromancers do not even have glyphs (and like I said above, Necromancers do not have a trait to specifically make marks remove conditions) and Guardian
symbols
cannot cleanse conditions (though I will concede that they are all light fields).

The options to make bombs double as heal aoe attacks should be returned now that two new expansions have updated how mechanics work on other classesYep, I definitely miss elixir packed explosives. Was a lot more fun a trait than the current short fuse trait, but a healing trait in explosives or an bomb trait in elixirs isn't clear to the concept of the specialisations. I'd guess this is why we have the much less specific soothing detonation.The real issue with the support engineer is that it wants to take too many things that all compete with one another. Druid can make a proper support build that has internal synergies. Engineer doesn't really have that, instead they have fake skill choices like Med kit. Engineer elite skills aren't terrible like a Druid's either. Elixir X, Supply Crate, Mortar Kit and Sneak Gyro all have plenty of value to a support engi.Support Engineer would be solid if med kit was reworked to be a real skill and not a toolbelt skill for a TRV+Static Discharge Holosmith.
If you haven't noticed elixirs have been kitten for some time as well. For some reason the field size for elixir tosses are tiny they aren't even the AOE size of the bombs or mines, they don't come anywhere near the size of the seals that necros and guards enjoy or even the seals on the druid.
Yes. That's my point. Copying support effects from other classes is pointless when our own existing support effects are weak, besides Healing Turret.

The argument about making all classes the same is irrelevant and here's why:This isn't asking to make all the classes the same it's a post about making healing roles consistent.For some reason, and this is noticeable by anyone who takes the time to be objective, engineers have been left behind when it comes to balance. They were behind before the explansions came out in the original series of traits and since there have been two other expansions with new traits not just for the engineer but for other classes as well, the need for major updates to get this class closer to the rest in capability and balance in both traits and skills on the original traits and skills is going to be a large undertaking. Apologists need not slow this down just because they think everything is fine despite the evidence otherwise.

My point is that there should be consistency in the balance and there's not. There's not even an option for many of these things for engineers in the form of runesets or sigils to cause these effects. So really we don't even have the choice to effect change to our builds to make these things happen for us. That's not diversity that's restriction and a severe lack of freedom. It will not make Engineers op to be on the same playing field as other classes.
It is okay for a profession to not be able to do things other professions can.
What's not okay, is the sorry state our current support options are in. I'm not against you Tigirius, Engineer support abilities are hilariously bad and the sad part is the mixing pot of support effects we have is of many enticing individual fantasies. Healing pick-ups are a super cool concept that makes engineer healing unique, it makes it one of the only ways to implement single target healing in GW2's "never target allies, but retain the functionality for no reason (other than function gyro)" design. Engineers are not allowed to be strong healers, healing in general isn't allowed to be strong, because the current design of their healing would lead to cancerous bunker builds that outlive everything. This is especially a problem for engineers' med kit which should give us a kit dedicated to healing and supporting others, but instead has a worthless spray and 4 types of crappy, hard to aim pickups. These problems and designs are unique to engineers, giving us Revenant dodges and Druid lasers doesn't solve the problem of Engineer healers.

An Engineer solution to Engineer healing, would be forgoing GW2's philosophy on ally targetting entirely and making med kit's med blaster a targetted skill that heals an individual ally. Since it now heals a single target that can't be yourself, the healing value can be increased drastically. Throw antidote could be replaced by a similar skill to this new med blaster that cures conditions or speeds up the revival of an ally. Med kit's other abilities would also likely be more enjoyable and satisfying to use if they behaved like grenades (or med pack drop) and scattered multiple pickups in an area.

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