Mesmers and Condition Damage: A Distorted Theme

[Ojimaru.8970]

Having spent a week pre-PoF on a Condi Mesmer, and another week post-PoF as a Condi Mirage, one thing I've noticed time and time again is that the majority of the Mesmer's Condition Damage comes from Bleeds, of all things. Over the duration of a boss fight with the ideal Condition Damage setup, Bleeding contributes over 43% of the total damage, whereas Confusion and Torment each hover around 12% and 8%, respectively. Isn't that just, well, confounding?

During the original launch of Guild Wars 2, Mesmers were the kings and queens of Confusion, with all manner of synergies to enhance that Condition Damage. Thematically, it made sense, too! However, the problem was that while Confusion was a killer in PvP and WvW, it was next to useless in PVE for five years. So, in trying to balance the Condi Mesmer's damage in PVE, we've seen ArenaNet take a number of different approaches, for better or worse. Over the years, Scepter was gutted of its Confusion damage in favor of Torment, and most importantly, Phantasmal Duelists were given a chance to apply Bleed stacks since the June 23, 2015 patch. Ultimately, all this culminated into the long, draw-out death of a core identity of the profession.

However, in retrospect, it's hard to fault the Mesmer's caretakers for the loss of its soul. For half of the game's life time, Condition Damage was a farce in PVE, more so for Confusion. It wasn't until recently, after five years of half measures and missed opportunities, that Confusion damage in PVE was decoupled from the other game modes, thereby freeing it from all the associated balance issues. This then allowed ArenaNet to bring the condition to match Bleeds, and therefore make it a competitive source of damage.

Except they forgot to undo the tangled mess of changes they had done over the years.

So despite its newfound strength, the only thing that massive buff did was improve the Condi Mesmer's overall DPS, and did nothing to shift the profession's combat capabilities to match its original theme. But that's not the end of the injustice.

Quite ironically, while player character Mesmers have de-emphasized their usage of Confusion, we've seen the complete opposite of enemy Mesmers. In particular, White Mantle Mesmers' Spatial Surge applies Confusion each tick, whereas Balthazar's Mercenary Pistoliers use a version of Illusionary Unload that applies Confusion. And there I am asking, "Why aren't my Duelists applying Confusion instead of Bleeds?"

As it stands, Mesmers aren't all that dissimilar to Necromancers, and that shouldn't be the case. Now that Confusion is a viable and competitive condition in PVE, I say it's high time Mesmers got their identity back.

[Ithilwen.1529]

Well said, I agree.

[bart.3687]

I agree 100%. Why would you inflict bleeding with mind magic? This has always bothered me.

[Curunen.8729]

Yeah I agree.

Just like guardians can do immense amounts of burn and little else, I'd rather Mesmer conditions be primarily confusion with torment secondary, focusing on shutdown of movement and skill usage.

[Axiom.4873]

This is very well said, and i agreed 100 percent. Confusion needs to be brought back to the forefront of the mesmer. Combined with torment, it then has the potential to be the control class it was meant to be.

Please up vote for this to be seriously looked at and tested by the devs.

EDIT: spelling

[Bod.8261]

While I agree that Mesmers should use more confusion in PvE (unless spefically going for bleed like Dune Cloak / Sand Shards does), I don't think it's a high priority problem.

In PvE Bleeding and Confusion deal exactly the same amount of damage.The only difference being Master of Misdirection, which buffs Confusion, while the typical sigil (Superior Sigil of Agony) buffs bleed and there is no alternative for confusion.

[soakman.7539]

As Bod stated, there's very little difference other than thematics. It might effect the overall application number when stacked with a large group of allies, but the tics themselves do equal damage at the moment in pve. It's sort of a non-issue for me, although I do prefer confusion over bleed for funzies. I don't want the entire class to have an overhaul which takes a ton of time and resources to make sure no bugs are introduced unless if feels useful. I'm not sure this really does, but I could be convinced.

[Axiom.4873]

@Bod.8261 said:While I agree that Mesmers should use more confusion in PvE (unless spefically going for bleed like Dune Cloak / Sand Shards does), I don't think it's a high priority problem.

In PvE Bleeding and Confusion deal exactly the same amount of damage.The only difference being Master of Misdirection, which buffs Confusion, while the typical sigil (Superior Sigil of Agony) buffs bleed and there is no alternative for confusion.

@soakman.7539 said:As Bod stated, there's very little difference other than thematics. It might effect the overall application number when stacked with a large group of allies, but the tics themselves do equal damage at the moment in pve. It's sort of a non-issue for me, although I do prefer confusion over bleed for funzies. I don't want the entire class to have an overhaul which takes a ton of time and resources to make sure no bugs are introduced unless if feels useful. I'm not sure this really does, but I could be convinced.

I think the point of the post was missed in your statements. While yes the damage numbers wont be affected, the idea was about the mesmer's feel, specifically the soul of the class as stated by Ojimaru. Since the number are the same in PvE, why not bring back more confusion to the mesmer? In my opinion changing this and giving the mesmer is "flavor" back is worth it.

And i understand that is my opinion.

[FaboBabo.3581]

Eh confusion has 2 dmg parts. If ur enemy use skills confusion is always better then bleed in pve now.

[Axiom.4873]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Eh confusion has 2 dmg parts. If ur enemy use skills confusion is always better then bleed in pve now.

Yes, but its minimal at best in PvE. Looking at the DPS numbers for condi mesmers they could use a little buff anyway, i think we can all agree.

The biggest challenge would be in PvP, but ArenaNet have the ability to separate it now.

[OriOri.8724]

An interesting GM trait we could receive would be that any bleed we apply is turned into confusion. We would lose bleed as a cover condi, but would be able to get pretty insane confusion stacks, which would hurt like hell if they use a skill. Maybe a slight buff to confusion damage (around 5%) to compensate for losing bleed as a cover condition, but that wouldn't even be necessary as I think the trait would already be fun enough as is.

[bart.3687]

@OriOri.8724 said:An interesting GM trait we could receive would be that any bleed we apply is turned into confusion. We would lose bleed as a cover condi, but would be able to get pretty insane confusion stacks, which would hurt like hell if they use a skill. Maybe a slight buff to confusion damage (around 5%) to compensate for losing bleed as a cover condition, but that wouldn't even be necessary as I think the trait would already be fun enough as is.

I support this, I had similar idea. Would be fun to see these stacks of confusion.

[Kobeathris.3645]

@OriOri.8724 said:An interesting GM trait we could receive would be that any bleed we apply is turned into confusion. We would lose bleed as a cover condi, but would be able to get pretty insane confusion stacks, which would hurt like hell if they use a skill. Maybe a slight buff to confusion damage (around 5%) to compensate for losing bleed as a cover condition, but that wouldn't even be necessary as I think the trait would already be fun enough as is.

This would be cool, but Dune cloak would need to be changed as well, unless you are planning on putting this in Mirage, in which case, you couldn't take both.

[OriOri.8724]

Yea dune cloak would have to be changed. Or it wouldn't, and it would just be a conscious choice for you to make, a balancing one. Do you keep bleeding and get the bonus condi duration, or would you skip all the condi duration at the expense of even more stacks of confusion for larger bursts when an enemy uses a skill? That's a good choice to make imo

[Dondagora.9645]

I agree. Take Confusion back, build Mesmer more around punishment and denial as it was intended. The change was good for PvE, of course, but I feel that Confusion and Interruption, our two major thematic mechanics, are still somewhat lost in PvP and WvW. Our condi traits should focus around Confusion more, or at least Blind so we can create more synergy with Ineptitude. I really miss Confusion stacks on Torch's iMage, as well. While not very powerful as straight DPS, it was deceptively helpful in keeping Confusion stacks on enemies in PvP.

[FairyNuff.3452]

@bart.3687 said:I agree 100%. Why would you inflict bleeding with mind magic? This has always bothered me.

aneurysms!

[Esplen.3940]

They're image is so sharp it cuts ya... idk.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Would be nice if Anet were to do some ACTUAL balance. I would almost settle for small increase that raises us from doing 50% less dps than the top hitting class, to maybe only 45% less.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I totally agree with you OP.

[johnnyg.3186]

Agreed, now let's have some love for our Mesmers.

[Davi.4920]

I figured bleeds on axe were from, you know, getting cut with the axe.

If you want think of the bleeds as bleeds on the brain! Done. Sorted. FIxed! :bleep_bloop:

[Ojimaru.8970]

@Davi.4920 said:I figured bleeds on axe were from, you know, getting cut with the axe.

If you want think of the bleeds as bleeds on the brain! Done. Sorted. FIxed! :bleep_bloop:

Most of Mesmers' Bleed stacks come from the three Phantasmal Duelists.

[Carighan.6758]

I agree fully.

Realistically, I'd love to see most current Mesmer design scrapped. In favor of replacing it with NPC Mesmer design. They have fun things:

• Repeated AE ticking confusion applications.
• Readily available and extensive projectile reflection.
• Cannot be killed until illusions are defeated (but die ~immediately once they are).

And so on. It baffles me that the NPC designers are free to do really cool mesmer implementations, but the class-balance people never copy the ideas. And mind you, this isn't a mesmer-only problem. Many NPCs, more so in PoF, have amazing skills. Skills which frankly fit classes far better than their current loadouts.

[Cyninja.2954]

I like the idea about turning bleeds into confusion. Would require a lot of tweaking obviously.

On the topic of bleeds via mind magic:

:D