Why Remove Birds and Slippery Slope?

[Spike.5073]

@Hex.2579 said:

@Spike.5073 said:Will you stop playing because they removed slippery slope?nope.

Then you got your answer. And stop it with the majority / minority bullshit.

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:We originally tried stability that disables slippery slope but it felt bad to have it randomly turn on and off. There was likely a way to make that work but the slippery slope mechanic in hindsight is much better as a mechanic for a specific encounter rather than a global modifier just because of how much it changes the way combat and movement works. It is indeed fun to mess around with but as a persistent effect in combat I found it less fun personally and went against the core feel of the game. The birds didn’t have great counterplay IMO it just forces you to dodge.

Honestly designing instabilities is really hard.

Thanks, Ben. Love you and the best to you. You don't know how much I appreciate you posting here still. And of course it's hard, what work, if done right, isn't?

[narcx.3570]

@"Quetz.1638" said:

I mean they actually changed how you needed to play the fractal and your choice of fractal inside the tier actually mattered. We managed to clear every daily fractal, so it is not the case that some fractals were "unplayable" and most of the people i palyed fractals with quite enjoyed them as they created interesting and funny moments.I really can not understand this decision but i guess i will have to live with the fractals becoming less fun because endgame content was too hard for some.I hope arenanet can bring them back in maybe an altered form and maybe next patch everything will be fine again, but then again, why remove them first?

Hopefully posts like this will demonstrate the disconnect between the fractal community's skill level and inspire Anet to start releasing CM's again...

Because honestly, Birds/Slippery Slope weren't even that bad... I know people want their braindead dailies to farm and power through, but nobody can deny that things like Slippery Slope (especially) spiced things up. But obviously, they created combinations that were too hard for a lot of players, so anet responded to the majority and most vocal of the opinions out there and removed them. And you can't blame them really... There was far more QQ about these instabilities than anything from the average PvE player, and the average PvE player has a pretty low skillcap.

I just hope now that they made fractal super face roll again for experienced groups, they will see that they need to divide the content--and honestly fractal CM's are the best way they're done this so far in any game mode. People who are better or want the challenge can get it for increased rewards, and less experienced players can just do regular for (still good) rewards.

Personally for me, I stopped playing fractals when Siren's came out without a CM, but all the QQ about Birds and Slope quickly made me come back.

[Spike.5073]

Everyone writing in here that Slippery Slope is just too hard for stupid fractal players should think about why Snow Crows and dT members are amongst the more prominent players celebrating this change.

[Excursion.9752]

I like a challenge but I don't like an over 1 hour for one fractal challenge because I don't run with a static and play at odd times of night. Yes both instabs were doable but sometimes the stars aligned for a night of hell with certain instab combinations and that drove the fun away. Birds was one of the reasons that I made a Mercy scourge. People would be out of dodges and get hit with a big attack and I would swoop in and pick them up. I have to be selective with my playing time and some nights were solely dedicated to fractals because some groups could not handle it. I am glad to see them gone. Would not mind seeing them come back if they get a rework.

[Hex.2579]

@Spike.5073 said:Then you got your answer. And stop it with the majority / minority kitten.stop being salty. lol. your answer isn't set in stone and so is mine. i have my own opinion and so are yours.everyone knows why SC celebrates the remove of both birds and slippery slope. speed clearing record here they come again. those instas just hinder them more.

[Vrita.7846]

This is coming from a fractal god and someone that did T4s+CMs daily, those instabs were garbage and had no place in fractals whatsoever. To add to this, I'd be happy to see instabs removed altogether in favor of more interesting, fun, and challenging encounters like the 99/100 CM bosses. No more add spam fractals like Siren's Reef either.

[RAZOR.7246]

@ narcx.3570...I agree about the need for a split between easier and harder content. That said, this complaining is not unjustified. The changes that people requested for before these was to have instabilities be less annoying yet more fight oriented. IMO this would have involved both positive and negative instabilities. The old SA was considered to be annoying but these instabilities are far worse in comparison.

I absolutely love fractals.. I do them 3-4 times a day in speedrun groups and pugs as well so I know the gulf in skill level between these players better than most. Pugs don’t cc, don’t do good dps and boon uptimes/Mechanics are an issue. By comparison a speedrun group instabreaks bars and bursts before anything happens. It’s a high risk high reward thing. If you’re going to come on a comp with a healer and “tank” builds and still expect to skip boss mechanics then that’s completely unreasonable. It’s defeats the purpose of fractals which is to burst dmg, do skips where possible and fast CC to avoid boss mechanics and maximise DPS. CMs are not difficult by any means and each boss can be done in around 2mins in speedruns, under 1min on MAMA and Siax. By comparison casual pug groups take double or triple that time because of Low DPS and poor overall gameplay. It’s the players and comps that are the problem with CM difficulty. Quite frankly sirens with outflanked and sugar is far more aids then any CM run and takes far too Long with no skips. It’s a simple matter of the rewards don’t match the difficulty. What players want from harder content is exclusive rewards, not just a few encryptions and matrices.

Because of these reasons there should be more CMs so that base T4s can cater to more casual players and CMs can appease more elite players.

[Tman.6349]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@"Zaraki.5784" said:

1. Because that's what most people asked for and Anet listened to them for once.
2. Because those two instabilities were annoying as hell.

wrong, on both endsi like how 5 negatove threads somehow represent the "majority", while in reality it's the oppsiteSo, the majority actually liked those instabilities? I guess it's why the amount of players in fractals after previous instab change plummeted....oh wait.

show me a thread made by a seasoned cm-playerThere

were

seasoned cm-players in those threads as well. Which is besides the point. It's the fractal population dropping significantly after instab change (which it did) that matters. It wouldn't happen if most people actually liked those changes.

having a bunch of seasonal activities back to back can do that to the fractal population too though, maybe idk

[Vinceman.4572]

@narcx.3570 said:Hopefully posts like this will demonstrate the disconnect between the fractal community's skill level and inspire Anet to start releasing CM's again...

Because honestly, Birds/Slippery Slope weren't even that bad... I know people want their braindead dailies to farm and power through, but nobody can deny that things like Slippery Slope (especially) spiced things up. But obviously, they created combinations that were too hard for a lot of players, so anet responded to the majority and most vocal of the opinions out there and removed them. And you can't blame them really... There was far more QQ about these instabilities than anything from the average PvE player, and the average PvE player has a pretty low skillcap.

I just hope now that they made fractal super face roll again for experienced groups, they will see that they need to divide the content--and honestly fractal CM's are the best way they're done this so far in any game mode. People who are better or want the challenge can get it for increased rewards, and less experienced players can just do regular for (still good) rewards.

Personally for me, I stopped playing fractals when Siren's came out without a CM, but all the QQ about Birds and Slope quickly made me come back.

I think the miscommunication is on your side. Even the hardcore players - speedrun guilds AND other fractals veterans were against Slippery Slope. The complaints had nothing to do with skill gaps. It would be true for things like Birds and Outflanked and therefore only relating to unexperienced/bad random T4 groups consisting of players with whateverest builds.Slippery Slope was just annoying to play and - here you are heavily wrong - had nothing spiced up. If Slippery Slope had an impact on groups than the fact that it just extended the run. Nothing else. The run wasn't harder or more challenging to handle. That's just bad game design and should be replaced by a different instability with a true challenge.Also, the average fractal player usually doesn't write a post in a gaming forum/reddit. The average gamer will play the stuff, rate it shortly and decide to come back or leave. In terms of Slippery Slope it was more than obvious those and competent & skilled players left fractals behind which was not the intention of making new instabilities.The change is a good one and hopefully we will see more of that in the future as well as some more instabilities with interesting challenges.

[Hex.2579]

@narcx.3570 said:Hopefully posts like this will demonstrate the disconnect between the fractal community's skill level and inspire Anet to start releasing CM's again...

I just hope now that they made fractal super face roll again for experienced groups, they will see that they need to divide the content--and honestly fractal CM's are the best way they're done this so far in any game mode. People who are better or want the challenge can get it for increased rewards, and less experienced players can just do regular for (still good) rewards.

Personally for me, I stopped playing fractals when Siren's came out without a CM, but all the QQ about Birds and Slope quickly made me come back.

i agree. CMs option would be nice. but then i think they already stopped working on CM after 100. and all of the new fractals pose like real CMs to most players. i still struggle in them siren's reef and twilight oasis in pug environment. have to wipe at least once to know what the group is lacking so i could switch into. if every fractal has a CM version, that's a lot of designing to do. i agree that CMs are the best things they ever designed!

[Pirindolo.9427]

@melandru.3876 said:because the game is getting more and more casual.

something to hard? no worries you don't have to improve/adapt!head to the forum, throw a rant and have patience.

Maybe you are one of those players that run CM's naked, and solo. Following your same reasoning, equipment, gear, food, team mates... that's all for weak players.

[Pirindolo.9427]

It is so funny to see that so many instability supporters say that they add variety to fights while, at the same time, they are also the strongest fans of the rotations.

In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

[Safandula.8723]

Since new instabs were introduced, Iv missed daily clears maybe few times, but Iv NEVER seen someone writing: "oh cool, there is slippery slope today, that's gonna be fun/no worse instabs instead"Being unable to react properly to red circles appearing under you, was not a definition of fun, or a challenge

[Nyuuu.6149]

@"Pirindolo.9427" said:In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

Variety from boss mechanics? Like a boss that does different attacks each time you fight him? That is not how a boss is supposed to work. And adding more bosses to the game is no solution either because you will run the "old" fractals more often than not.When you fight against a boss for the 50th time it is just not difficult anymore.Birds and slippery slope were a good way to change how you have to play and move, which is exactly what instabilities are all about.The fight only got harder if you didn't adapt your movement to slippery slope. It was possible to have somewhat precise positioning.

[ElderNewt.5840]

I loved birds and thought slippy was quite a challenge.. But hey ho people complain things arent hard enough then moan when they get something hard... #causuallife

[Safandula.8723]

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@"Pirindolo.9427" said:In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

Variety from boss mechanics? Like a boss that does different attacks each time you fight him? That is not how a boss is supposed to work. And adding more bosses to the game is no solution either because you will run the "old" fractals more often than not.When you fight against a boss for the 50th time it is just not difficult anymore.Birds and slippery slope were a good way to change how you have to play and move, which is exactly what instabilities are all about.The fight only got harder if you didn't adapt your movement to slippery slope. It was possible to have somewhat precise positioning.

Birds were good way to change the way u play? U mean getting blinded in random moment when u start to burst, and than just burn dodge for it, that should be used on other boss/instab mechanics? I need to admit, that's a rly cool way to make game less boring :)

[Glider.5792]

@"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:We originally tried stability that disables slippery slope but it felt bad to have it randomly turn on and off. There was likely a way to make that work but the slippery slope mechanic in hindsight is much better as a mechanic for a specific encounter rather than a global modifier just because of how much it changes the way combat and movement works. It is indeed fun to mess around with but as a persistent effect in combat I found it less fun personally and went against the core feel of the game. The birds didn’t have great counterplay IMO it just forces you to dodge.

Honestly designing instabilities is really hard.

Hey! I've got a question regarding the slippery slope instability, if its possible to get an answer to.

I am wondering, from where did you get this idea from ? Was it directly from SAB, or did it come to mind from somewhere else ?I am asking this because at some point, i made a forum post with new instability suggestions, and one of them was "Slippery terrain" which would work just like the Slippery slope worked. My direct description of it was:

All walkable terrain would work similar to SAB w2z3 ice. This sounds to me like a fun idea, but most people would probably find it one of the most annoying/hated instabilites. Im also not sure how it would work with the jumping puzzle parts in Uncategorized and Chaos fractal, would most likely have to be dissabled there, or just in the whole fractal. It could work with time intervals though (10 seconds on, 10 second off).

This is why i wonder, if my post possibly had some impact on it, if so, sory peeps /o\

[Balsa.3951]

@melandru.3876 said:because the game is getting more and more casual.

something to hard? no worries you don't have to improve/adapt!head to the forum, throw a rant and have patience.

hard is hard annoying is annoying and those 2 where simple annoying

[Nyuuu.6149]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@"Pirindolo.9427" said:In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

Variety from boss mechanics? Like a boss that does different attacks each time you fight him? That is not how a boss is supposed to work. And adding more bosses to the game is no solution either because you will run the "old" fractals more often than not.When you fight against a boss for the 50th time it is just not difficult anymore.Birds and slippery slope were a good way to change how you have to play and move, which is exactly what instabilities are all about.The fight only got harder if you didn't adapt your movement to slippery slope. It was possible to have somewhat precise positioning.

Birds were good way to change the way u play? U mean getting blinded in random moment when u start to burst, and than just burn dodge for it, that should be used on other boss/instab mechanics? I need to admit, that's a rly cool way to make game less boring :)

Indeed it is. You dodge and deliver the damage back to the boss.The lack of endurance just prevents you from relying on your dodgeroll all the time. You might need to sidestep or walk out of some AoE. Or you change your build to get more vigor or use different buff food.With that argumentation they would have to remove "we bleed fire" next because it makes you dodge, too.

[phs.6089]

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@"Pirindolo.9427" said:In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

Variety from boss mechanics? Like a boss that does different attacks each time you fight him? That is not how a boss is supposed to work. And adding more bosses to the game is no solution either because you will run the "old" fractals more often than not.When you fight against a boss for the 50th time it is just not difficult anymore.Birds and slippery slope were a good way to change how you have to play and move, which is exactly what instabilities are all about.The fight only got harder if you didn't adapt your movement to slippery slope. It was possible to have somewhat precise positioning.

Birds were good way to change the way u play? U mean getting blinded in random moment when u start to burst, and than just burn dodge for it, that should be used on other boss/instab mechanics? I need to admit, that's a rly cool way to make game less boring :)

Indeed it is. You dodge and deliver the damage back to the boss.The lack of endurance just prevents you from relying on your dodgeroll all the time. You might need to sidestep or walk out of some AoE. Or you change your build to get more vigor or use different buff food.With that argumentation they would have to remove "we bleed fire" next because it makes you dodge, too.

No thank you If I don't dodge and get blinded, I could deliver more dps on boss.

[Safandula.8723]

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@"Pirindolo.9427" said:In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

Variety from boss mechanics? Like a boss that does different attacks each time you fight him? That is not how a boss is supposed to work. And adding more bosses to the game is no solution either because you will run the "old" fractals more often than not.When you fight against a boss for the 50th time it is just not difficult anymore.Birds and slippery slope were a good way to change how you have to play and move, which is exactly what instabilities are all about.The fight only got harder if you didn't adapt your movement to slippery slope. It was possible to have somewhat precise positioning.

Birds were good way to change the way u play? U mean getting blinded in random moment when u start to burst, and than just burn dodge for it, that should be used on other boss/instab mechanics? I need to admit, that's a rly cool way to make game less boring :)

Indeed it is. You dodge and deliver the damage back to the boss.The lack of endurance just prevents you from relying on your dodgeroll all the time. You might need to sidestep or walk out of some AoE. Or you change your build to get more vigor or use different buff food.With that argumentation they would have to remove "we bleed fire" next because it makes you dodge, too.

U mean these 5 ticks 1k each? No,sorry. I already mentioned we bleed fire has to be changed in the way, so it reflects dmg back to source to be a good instab. And puff! It happened. Now u are rewarded for adapting to given instab. Birds gave rly no reward, unless ur masochist, than yea I guess u might don't like these changes

[melandru.3876]

@phs.6089 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@"Pirindolo.9427" said:In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

Variety from boss mechanics? Like a boss that does different attacks each time you fight him? That is not how a boss is supposed to work. And adding more bosses to the game is no solution either because you will run the "old" fractals more often than not.When you fight against a boss for the 50th time it is just not difficult anymore.Birds and slippery slope were a good way to change how you have to play and move, which is exactly what instabilities are all about.The fight only got harder if you didn't adapt your movement to slippery slope. It was possible to have somewhat precise positioning.

Birds were good way to change the way u play? U mean getting blinded in random moment when u start to burst, and than just burn dodge for it, that should be used on other boss/instab mechanics? I need to admit, that's a rly cool way to make game less boring :)

Indeed it is. You dodge and deliver the damage back to the boss.The lack of endurance just prevents you from relying on your dodgeroll all the time. You might need to sidestep or walk out of some AoE. Or you change your build to get more vigor or use different buff food.With that argumentation they would have to remove "we bleed fire" next because it makes you dodge, too.

No thank you If I don't dodge and get blinded, I could deliver more dps on boss.

and here we have what is wrong

"must stand still and dps boss as if it was a testgolem"

[phs.6089]

@melandru.3876 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@"Pirindolo.9427" said:In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

Variety from boss mechanics? Like a boss that does different attacks each time you fight him? That is not how a boss is supposed to work. And adding more bosses to the game is no solution either because you will run the "old" fractals more often than not.When you fight against a boss for the 50th time it is just not difficult anymore.Birds and slippery slope were a good way to change how you have to play and move, which is exactly what instabilities are all about.The fight only got harder if you didn't adapt your movement to slippery slope. It was possible to have somewhat precise positioning.

Birds were good way to change the way u play? U mean getting blinded in random moment when u start to burst, and than just burn dodge for it, that should be used on other boss/instab mechanics? I need to admit, that's a rly cool way to make game less boring :)

Indeed it is. You dodge and deliver the damage back to the boss.The lack of endurance just prevents you from relying on your dodgeroll all the time. You might need to sidestep or walk out of some AoE. Or you change your build to get more vigor or use different buff food.With that argumentation they would have to remove "we bleed fire" next because it makes you dodge, too.

No thank you If I don't dodge and get blinded, I could deliver more dps on boss.

and here we have what is wrong

"must stand still and dps boss as if it was a testgolem"

No, must save dodge to avoid boss attacks. Not being blinded randomly messing with my positioning and rotation.Give me a challenge, not annoyance

[melandru.3876]

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@"melandru.3876" said:because the game is getting more and more casual.

something to hard? no worries you don't have to improve/adapt!head to the forum, throw a rant and have patience.

Maybe you are one of those players that run CM's naked, and solo. Following your same reasoning, equipment, gear, food, team mates... that's all for weak players.

you are trying to make fun of me, but the joke is on youyoutube "100cm solo" by fractal spoon, that's right: skorvald, artsaariv AND arkk all solo, on 100cm

meanwhile baddies have issues with 81 very first phase, can't even open a freaking door

nice try tho

[melandru.3876]

@phs.6089 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Nyuuu.6149 said:

@"Pirindolo.9427" said:In my opinion as a player that has been doing fractals for years, insts add nothing but artificial annoyances to fights (like orange circle spam and infinite trash spam do). And birds and slippery slope were on the very top of that annoyance. Difficulty and variety should come from boss mechanics.

Variety from boss mechanics? Like a boss that does different attacks each time you fight him? That is not how a boss is supposed to work. And adding more bosses to the game is no solution either because you will run the "old" fractals more often than not.When you fight against a boss for the 50th time it is just not difficult anymore.Birds and slippery slope were a good way to change how you have to play and move, which is exactly what instabilities are all about.The fight only got harder if you didn't adapt your movement to slippery slope. It was possible to have somewhat precise positioning.

Birds were good way to change the way u play? U mean getting blinded in random moment when u start to burst, and than just burn dodge for it, that should be used on other boss/instab mechanics? I need to admit, that's a rly cool way to make game less boring :)

Indeed it is. You dodge and deliver the damage back to the boss.The lack of endurance just prevents you from relying on your dodgeroll all the time. You might need to sidestep or walk out of some AoE. Or you change your build to get more vigor or use different buff food.With that argumentation they would have to remove "we bleed fire" next because it makes you dodge, too.

No thank you If I don't dodge and get blinded, I could deliver more dps on boss.

and here we have what is wrong

"must stand still and dps boss as if it was a testgolem"

No, must save dodge to avoid boss attacks. Not being blinded randomly messing with my positioning and rotation.Give me a challenge, not annoyance

if only there were classes that give aegis to a group, so said group can facetank.pssst, they allready can!

mesmer shares aegisfb shares aegisdragonhunter shares aegis

howmany skills do you now need to actually dodge (because they are unblockable) i'll give you a hint, really not that much.what are the odds, that in the 1 second timespan having to actually dodge, you get birds TWICE? nihil, because birds are set on a exact interval.

so how exactly does this mess with rotations?

complelty ignnoring the fact that you also have perma vigor(+50% endurance regen) from chrono+druid, and you have a fractal potion that gives another +50% (infinite mist mobility) endurance regen"Each dodge requires 50 endurance, meaning that most characters (who have 100 endurance) can dodge twice in a row; the exception is the thief elite specialization the Daredevil, who has a total of 150 endurance. Endurance regenerates over time, at a base rate of 5% per second and a max rate 10% per second."

50% endurance = 1 dodge10% per 1 second = max endurance regen (pot + vigorr

a dodge every 5 seconds, "birds annoying i never have endurance"

know what to actually dodge, and know what to sidestep then you will alwlays have atleast 1 dodge ready

a clear l2p issue