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Full Minstrels meta on Chrono needs to stop.


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Ah, this thread again: "Why pugs no play meta? Kitten that, it's trash" etc. bla bla bla.

Advice from me:Adjust your lfg properly and ask for the stuff you want. If not, accept that people play what works best for them. Unless it's not your squad and you are the commander you don't have to speak up if it's not helping precisely.

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@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:Why is anyone ever asking a chrono to go over 1551 toughness?

If someone is asking the chrono to go over 1551 toughness, then it's not the chrono running minstrel that's the problem. It's the healer or hand kiter who obviously needs the tank to go above X toughness.

As to the question at hand if it were applicable:

  • some chronos built full minstrel specifically for tanking. They do not feel the need to invest even more gold into this character and get alternate gear
  • some chronos are lazy and don't feel like adjusting their gear for every single boss when minstrel will do in a PUG setting
  • some chronos tanks are not a safe on sub minstrel gear for tanking
  • some bosses favor full minstrel gear (Escort tower, Xera, Deimos, Desmina, Dhuum, Twins, etc.) or it makes life a lot easier

If you are unhappy with this, get a different tank or re-roll a chrono and do it yourself.

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Kitty personally prefers using minstrel's or harrier's for chronoing to provide a decent amount of heals while at it since pugs tend to take massive amounts of damage and downed is a huge dps loss. Though if the squad is really good, it can be worth it to push for dps. But well, better play it safe than sorry, Kitty likes to say.

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Personally as a handkiter I prefer chronos on Deimos who can go relatively high toughness - while handkiting is rather safe and easy on builds like soulbeast, one lag spike or misclick can result in a wipe and most kiters feel more comfortable with higher toughness - hence tank needs to be able to outcap that.

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Why not go Minstrels? You can make your own LFG posts or demand that your static chronos don't use it, or even better, play a Chrono yourself so you have to deal with only one other Chrono at most. I've wiped far too many times on PUGs that thought they were so meta that they didn't need two healers, tough Chronos, Scourges, and so on and so on, only to join a more chill group moments after that got it on first try with a subpar timer result.

If you're a PUG commander and you spend a half hour every time you want to kill a boss looking for a perfect meta 60+KP group, it's all up to you, but that sounds pretty inefficient. When I PUG I want it to be a first try above all else, not a fast kill after 3 tries, therefore mechanics experience and easy to use builds are far higher in priority than GOAT Chronos with 1005 toughness that will absolutely leave midfight if the run is not exactly like they're used to. Neither of us can claim the other's playstyle is objectively bad, just stop complaining about people you are not obligated to play with.

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I do play chrono, I support with 1096 t and like to tank with 1445-1555ish. I switch to hk as I don't like explaining how I would like the fight to go in PUGs (as someone said above). All I'm saying is that in GW1 it would be strange if I was duoing UW and the SS brought insidious parasite and not SS for dmg because it increases his lifespan I'd just leave. I don't like just leaving pugs and watching them then wipe/be in lfg looking for different comps for hours so it would help if we could all adapt to a meta? I'm not sure we want chronos that want to play full minstrel.....?

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@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:I do play chrono, I support with 1096 t and like to tank with 1445-1555ish.

Why do you complain about minstrel chronos when you dont play optimally yourself?

if we could all adapt to a meta? I'm >not sure we want chronos that want to play full minstrel.....?

As soon as pugs play with 1 Druid only and without a second healer i gladly regear my alt chrono to be able to tank with 1251 max. Otherwise i cant be bother to do this on my second account.

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@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:I'm not sure we want chronos that want to play full minstrel.....?

And why wouldn't that be the case? Do you wipe more often having chrono(s) on full minstrel? Of course not, because it is helping the group a lot. See, you don't need the extra dps from the chrono in the first place. Sure, for some easier encounters like for example Gorseval the additional dps will facilitate things but on the other side people haven't played/aren't playing minstrel there anyways. We are talking about stuff like Xera, Soulless Horror etc. and here it makes no difference if your chrono tank is minstrel or not. If your group isn't able to survive &/or do enough damage it's definitely not due to chronos being minstrel. All bosses are easy to handle with players just knowing how to (a.k.a. knowing mechanics) and doing appropriate damage (very far from being optimal is enough here).

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If you have a problem with second chrono going so high on toughness you can't easily go above that, just inform them that either they go lower, or they are the main tank from now on. If they are the main tank however, you really shouldn't care how high they go as long as you're lower. It's not like it negatively affects the performance in a pug group - chrono dps really is not an issue unless you are seriously tryharding. And if you are seriously tryharding in a pug group, then you've probably made a wrong turn somewhere, because it definitely isn't the place for this.

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@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:Why is anyone ever asking a chrono to go over 1551 toughness?

I started HKing recently on my chrono and for safety I went with minstrels to ensure I can handle the damage pressure with high effective HP and some boon duration on my prot and alacrity. As I get better at the rotation, I'll be lowering the toughness by switching to more Magi. Every group I'm in I say "17xx but can go lower" but the tank always just goes higher.

When I started raiding last year I started in full exotic givers (because it was cheap on the TP) and I just accepted that I would always be tank until I got better gear.

If someone cannot go lower than 1500, just tell them to tank or leave. :)

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@Obtena.7952 said:Ah, I forgot .. this is the game where I let OTHERS tell me how to play ...

No, wait, it's not.

Exactly, if you want to play your way, you can lead your own group.

If you want to tank at 1005, just tag up and enforce your rules with a clear LFG message.

If you are tired of getting kicked because you have 1500+ toughness and don't want to tank, start your own group and find a tank with higher toughness with a clear LFG message.

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@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:

Do you wipe more often having chrono(s) on full minstrel?Yes. Yes I do. They often can't upkeep buffs (don't know rote) they usually mistime shield 4, sword 2 and you better not be expecting aegis. The full minstrels chrono does not know the ways of guild wars.....

You listed some things that only affect the Chrono (such as missing their personal blocks and evades - but they are Minstrel, so I'll find it very hard to believe they die on your anecdote), as well something you shouldn't be needing since you know the mechanics yourself - if you know the mechanics, aegis is a bonus you can go without, and if the group is not exactly setup how you want it to be setup, why should it be expected then?

Most importantly of course you talk about upkeeping buffs. https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats seems to disagree with your hypothesis. The sample size for Support Chronos is pretty large (13k+ logs) and the 50th percentile are right up there with full buffing output (even for aegis, remarkably). I'm not saying you're absolutely wrong, but how are you claiming this, specially using loaded words such as "usually", "they often" and "X does not know the way [at all times]..."? Furthermore, how can you even reliably know your anecdotal bad cases were Minstrel's Chronos and not something even whackier like Givers, or just bad pugs trying to pull off Diviners?

For one, I know GW2Raidar is biased towards "the best" because your average player would not quite upload there often. But if you're a veteran raider your own groups should be skewed towards this better population by now, unless you're complaining about training runs and that makes no sense. In sum, you should be playing with the people who tend to upload logs there (assuming you play with experienced people - the only case where complaining about such specific building counts), and therefore I find it hard to believe you're actually experiencing Minstrel Chronos that "often" can't upkeep buffs. Does that mean you "often" fail to kill bosses?

Last but not least, we can't even know if the pug Minstrel Chrono is at fault when something does go wrong. Pugs are notoriously bad at positioning, to the point that some DPS players actually play worse when they pug because they can't do certain mechanics and instead always get aegis/heal carried by their statics. This forces them to go far from the group instead of simple sidestepping/dodging key boss attacks, losing a lot of buffs in the process. This was a large post but I guess the overall feeling remains: "Why is anyone ever asking a chrono to go over 1551 toughness?" - no one has to ask, people can play however they want, and everyone else have a clear choice on whether or not to play together.

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I'm not sure if trolling. The sample size is massively distorted from LFG (as these people don't log much or they wouldn't be in LFG anymore) and I'm not sure if you think support chronos are running full minstrels and tanks are running full minstrels with toughness infusions? Because this is the only way my brain cloud make sense of that essay you typed. :(

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no one has to ask, people can play however they want, and everyone else have a clear choice on whether or not to play together.

I don't get your point, is it that you think its fine for everyone to just ruin half of all runs and force comms to kick by running ludicrous gear? How about if the dps just stack soldiers gear until they're 5 t under the tank? As in, are you saying that is a healthy LFG meta? I just don't understand your point of view.

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@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:I'm not sure if trolling. The sample size is massively distorted from LFG (as these people don't log much or they wouldn't be in LFG anymore)

The sample size is quite large regardless, and playing Minstrels make it easier, not harder to achieve at least 70% uptime, even for newbies who spam random skills. This is more than enough to kill bosses if people know the mechanics (which is, I emphasize, the most relevant aspect of a successful kill). Again, why do you assume people like Vince and RaidsAreEasy do not play in LFG? I'd say lots of veterans play there even after their weekly clear, with alts and sometimes just for the sake of it. So you're still playing with a lot of veterans even by using LFG.

And from my own anecdotal experience (since we must use that...), you'd be getting runs faster than plainly using LFG by hopping onto some of the discord channels like RIT - and would find experienced players more often than not. Experienced enough to not commit to many of the mistakes you're supposedly finding very often. If that's not how you're playing, I suggest you do it. But regardless, LFG doesn't seem to be that desolate place where you keep losing because your Chrono is playing Minstrel, unless you're assuming that this is who you should always blame, instead of faulty DPS/bad positioning/lack of mechanics.

@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:

and I'm not sure if you think support chronos are running full minstrels and tanks are running full minstrels with toughness infusions? Because this is the only way my brain cloud make sense of that essay you typed. :(

@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:

Do you wipe more often having chrono(s) on full minstrel?Yes. Yes I do. They often can't upkeep buffs (don't know rote) they usually mistime shield 4, sword 2 and you better not be expecting aegis. The full minstrels chrono does not know the ways of guild wars.....

Well, every single thing you mentioned has nothing to do with having toughness, so I'm not really assuming anything, but you are assuming that people are running Minstrels when they miss skill activation and when they can't upkeep buffs, and I wonder just why assume that? A full diviners Chrono can still get pretty bad DPS results on arcDPS so you couldn't use that as a sign that they are using Minstrel. There is no gear check and I can ping anything I may or may not be using.

@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:

  • no one has to ask, people can play however they want, and everyone else have a clear choice on whether or not to play together.I don't get your point, is it that you think its fine for everyone to just ruin half of all runs and force comms to kick by running ludicrous gear? How about if the dps just stack soldiers gear until they're 5 t under the tank? As in, are you saying that is a healthy LFG meta? I just don't understand your point of view.

Whose runs are being ruined? Most people in this topic seem to be fine with "ludicrous gear" or at least fine with kicking (and we have to go by the people who personally posted here, if you absolutely can't trust the only statistics available @gw2raidar). Your example doesn't help either - a team full of soldiers gear DPS can probably kill every single boss with more or less difficulty - provided they know the mechanics. They don't do it because it doesn't make things easier (i.e allows for mistakes), but Minstrels do allow for more mistakes, and hence you will find it on pugs. Likewise for Scourge healers or even full scourge teams. A healthy LFG meta is one where things get done in first tries and the speedrunning meta often fails to achieve this with average players, or even with veteran players who want to pug with their alts, and have to bear the weight of less experienced people, which is where things like Minstrels help a lot. How exactly does toughness help or inhibit our ability to upkeep buffs or properly activate skills in time? Your complaint should be about the quality of people you find in LFG, not about their armor, for it to make at least a bit of sense.

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@"8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45063AFE57F3.6259" said:I'm not sure if trolling. The sample size is massively distorted from LFG (as these people don't log much or they wouldn't be in LFG anymore) and I'm not sure if you think support chronos are running full minstrels and tanks are running full minstrels with toughness infusions? Because this is the only way my brain cloud make sense of that essay you typed. :(

and if support chronos ran minstrel? All they would have to do replace is 1 piece of gear to drop below the tank, no need for infusions.

You're asking others about trolling while you:

  • started this topic with misunderstanding why OTHER classes would want chronos to go minstrel
  • told us how you are running subpar setups yourself (there is 0 reason to run even 1 toughness on support, and good tanks tank with 1,035 toughness)
  • give absolutely unrelated examples which are not even close from GW1 and equate minstrel gear on chrono with soldier gear for dps
  • trash on supposedly chronos who run minstrel (which was considered meta 2 patches ago by the way, even by snowcrows)

What is your goal here? You have proven to more experienced chronos that you are adequate at best, yet rage about supposedly worse players? Do you really want some of the good chronos here to dismantle your thread?

If you don't want to have PUG minstrel chrono, then don't take one along. Build your squad the way you like. Leave the condescending and arrogant attitude to people who are actually good at the class.

If you're hoping for other players to agree, especially experienced chronos, that minstrel is somehow trash, sorry to disappoint. It's a great set for what it provides. Knowing when to use it is something a good chrono should pick up.

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