How many meta builds were nerfed?

[Liza.2758]

this notes will last 1 - 2 weeks max

we will try to meme but after a week they will realize why bother playing those .. when you can just 1 shot like u used to with rev / spell breaker

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Everyone knows that it's weird that Spellbreaker, an elite specialization focused on counter attacking and removing your enemy's strengths like their boons, condition >output, stealth, and projectiles, to be lobbing out 8k Whirlwind Blade and Arcing Slice crits and two-shotting people in Rampage is.That's all core warrior stuff, though. Hell, looking at the wiki Rampage hasn't had any mechanical changes since it became a physical skill in 2015, so I don't know why complaining about it is suddenly a meme (although I suspect, "literally everything worthwhile about Spellbreaker proper has been nerfed into the ground because it was good at the job Anet designed it for" is the answer).

[mortrialus.3062]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Everyone knows that it's weird that Spellbreaker, an elite specialization focused on counter attacking and removing your enemy's strengths like their boons, condition >output, stealth, and projectiles, to be lobbing out 8k Whirlwind Blade and Arcing Slice crits and two-shotting people in Rampage is.That's all core warrior stuff, though. Hell, looking at the wiki Rampage hasn't had any mechanical changes since it became a physical skill in

2015

, so I don't know why complaining about it is suddenly a meme (although I suspect, "literally everything worthwhile about Spellbreaker proper has been nerfed into the ground because it was good at the job Anet designed it for" is the answer).

Peak Performance and Might Make Right are new core traits, as is buffed Bull's Charge and reduced cooldown Rampage. Rampage's mechanics might not have been changed, but the cooldown was reduced 180 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and it gained the Peak Performance 10% damage modifier, which gives it a traited 72 second cooldown so its up every single fight. This isn't just "2015 core warrior" stuff these are changes that happened to core warrior with or after Path of Fire. Combine them with Magebane Tether's ridiculous might generation and you get which has too much mobility, damage, and sustain all rolled into one.

[yusayu.3629]

It has always been the case that people whined the most about Mesmer - so it gets the most nerfs, and it gets the nerfs first. Bunker Chrono will see a decline in popularity, people will realize that other classes were just as strong, complain about them and we'll see them get nerfed in the next patches.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@yusayu.3629 said:It has always been the case that people whined the most about Mesmer - so it gets the most nerfs, and it gets the nerfs first. Bunker Chrono will see a decline in popularity, people will realize that other classes were just as strong, complain about them and we'll see them get nerfed in the next patches.

One can only hope. Though I have noticed a gradual uptick in complaints about the other meta builds lately. They're even getting their own complaint threads, though not nearly to the extent mesmer has. It's like people are finally seeing the elephant in the room with this upcoming patch where Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are completely untouched as far as nerfs, while Mesmer's year of nerfs continues.

[MrPhantasia.5924]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:It has always been the case that people whined the most about Mesmer - so it gets the most nerfs, and it gets the nerfs first. Bunker Chrono will see a decline in popularity, people will realize that other classes were just as strong, complain about them and we'll see them get nerfed in the next patches.

One can only hope. Though I have noticed a gradual uptick in complaints about the other meta builds lately. They're even getting their own complaint threads, though not nearly to the extent mesmer has. It's like people are finally seeing the elephant in the room with this upcoming patch where Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are completely untouched as far as nerfs, while Mesmer's year of nerfs continues.

Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are all some of the most balanced, highest risk high reward, highest skill cap builds to have ever existed in the history of this game.

Mirage deserved all the nerfs it got and then some. Even what they've done isn't enough to fuck mirage and fuck mesmer as a whole.

[Maddog.3716]

@MrPhantasia.5924 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:It has always been the case that people whined the most about Mesmer - so it gets the most nerfs, and it gets the nerfs first. Bunker Chrono will see a decline in popularity, people will realize that other classes were just as strong, complain about them and we'll see them get nerfed in the next patches.

One can only hope. Though I have noticed a gradual uptick in complaints about the other meta builds lately. They're even getting their own complaint threads, though not nearly to the extent mesmer has. It's like people are finally seeing the elephant in the room with this upcoming patch where Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are completely untouched as far as nerfs, while Mesmer's year of nerfs continues.

Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are all some of the most balanced, highest risk high reward, highest skill cap builds to have ever existed in the history of this game.

Mirage deserved all the nerfs it got and then some. Even what they've done isn't enough to kitten mirage and kitten mesmer as a whole.

Hello Mr. Addict! Glad to have you with us!

[ButterPeanut.9746]

Folks need to understand the actual important part about this patch. The significant part of this patch is that it is coming roughly 6 weeks after the last balance patch.

There is no reason to complain for years that the balance patches aren't frequent enough, and then when we get frequent balance patches, complain that each one doesn't contain every single nerf needed at that specific moment.

The appropriate nerfs will come, as long as they keep up a pretty aggressive pace with these patches then we're moving in the right direction. With this particular one it was clear that Berserker rework and some rev/druid changes were the major focus, just like scrapper rework a few weeks back.

[Spartacus.3192]

@Khalisto.5780 said:lol, I don't even care about what is nerfed or not, I just bounce to whichever is stronger at the time or counter the other team's comp better.

^This! I prefer playing Rev, War, Guard or Engie. So nowadays i just kinda move to whichever one is the strongest. Usually at least one of these classes is top tier. Although lately ive been playing Rev when clearly Holo is better for an average player like me.

[zoopop.5630]

Mesmer Mains are confused and Lost now that Anet Golden Class has been push down a bit.

Relax guys Power Mirage and Power Chrono still gonna be good.

[MrPhantasia.5924]

@zoopop.5630 said:Mesmer Mains are confused and Lost now that Anet Golden Class has been push down a bit.

Relax guys Power Mirage and Power Chrono still gonna be good.

Basically. And Anet still haven't done enough to fuck mirage and fuck mesmer as a whole.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Quadox.7834 said:As far as I can tell, only one meta build is getting nerfed, chrono bunker (two if you count condi mirage). How come there is such a distinct lack of nerfs?

@"mortrialus.3062" said:I was hands down one of the most vocal advocates for unnerfing portal when the nerf initially happened. I also voiced support for unnerfing it in Falndre's thread about bringing portal back. I really don't get were this is coming from.

Steal nerf is just funny because its so left field and thief isn't exactly dominating right now. It's just really left field is all.

There's several other overperforming meta builds right now to be sure, but of them all chronobunk/mirage have been overtuned the longest, with soulbeast a close second.

Portal nerf sucked, Steal nerf is par for the course. Arenanet has a habit of just shanking thieves for no clear reason, labeled as for the sake of balance. They had exhaustion specially made for them and were beaten upside the head with it just out of the blue when someone in the balance team thought unhindered was too strong, and that thieves needed to have their endurance disabled if someone clipped them with cripple, even though Don't Stop in acrobatics does the same thing and thief's best heal removes the effects that would cause exhaustion by default. Then there was the sudden sword thief nerf. Before that it was the "we feel thieves shouldnt do damage now" phase, where people quit their thieves because there was no reason to use them in pvp. Before that it was the sudden removal of ricochet,

I was surprised for the former, but not for the latter. at this point I'm used to just playing harder every patch on thief.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Falan.1839 said:The problem is that the Anet balance team is somehow madly in love with underplayed garbage builds and puts 80% of its effort into buffing them (usually either with no impact at all or overdoing it as on Scrapper) (...)

Except ele.

I am sad, angry and satisfied all at the same time.

[Quadox.7834]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Falan.1839 said:The problem is that the Anet balance team is somehow madly in love with underplayed garbage builds and puts 80% of its effort into buffing them (usually either with no impact at all or overdoing it as on Scrapper) (...)

Except ele.

I am sad, angry and satisfied all at the same time.

No, that also goes for ele.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Falan.1839" said:The problem is that the Anet balance team is somehow madly in love with underplayed garbage builds and puts 80% of its effort into buffing them (usually either with no impact at all or overdoing it as on Scrapper) (...)

Except ele.

I am sad, angry and satisfied all at the same time.

No, that also goes for ele.

You seem to have a different definition of being "madly in love" then...

[Abelisk.5148]

@MrPhantasia.5924 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:Mesmer Mains are confused and Lost now that Anet Golden Class has been push down a bit.

Relax guys Power Mirage and Power Chrono still gonna be good.

Basically. And Anet still haven't done enough to kitten mirage and kitten mesmer as a whole.

I'm fine with dueling power Mirages tbh. It's alot more fun since you have to decide when to dodge, when to avoid burst, when to avoid focus 4 pulls. Compared to condition ambush spam

[Quadox.7834]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Falan.1839" said:The problem is that the Anet balance team is somehow madly in love with underplayed garbage builds and puts 80% of its effort into buffing them (usually either with no impact at all or overdoing it as on Scrapper) (...)

Except ele.

I am sad, angry and satisfied all at the same time.

No, that also goes for ele.

You seem to have a different definition of being "madly in love" then...

He said they in love with underplayed things and ignore relevant things, which is exactly what they did with ele (e.g. tempest buffs and d/d changes).

[Megametzler.5729]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Falan.1839" said:The problem is that the Anet balance team is somehow madly in love with underplayed garbage builds and puts 80% of its effort into buffing them (usually either with no impact at all or overdoing it as on Scrapper) (...)

Except ele.

I am sad, angry and satisfied all at the same time.

No, that also goes for ele.

You seem to have a different definition of being "madly in love" then...

He said they in love with underplayed things and ignore relevant things, which is exactly what they did with ele (e.g. tempest buffs and d/d changes).

But... you know those (very very few) changes did nothing at all and definitely not required 80% of their effort? More like 0.1%?

Like buffing Cleansing wave's base healing by 20%. Nois. Took me 5 seconds to change the value, if my database is slow.

[Quadox.7834]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Falan.1839" said:The problem is that the Anet balance team is somehow madly in love with underplayed garbage builds and puts 80% of its effort into buffing them (usually either with no impact at all or overdoing it as on Scrapper) (...)

Except ele.

I am sad, angry and satisfied all at the same time.

No, that also goes for ele.

You seem to have a different definition of being "madly in love" then...

He said they in love with underplayed things and ignore relevant things, which is exactly what they did with ele (e.g. tempest buffs and d/d changes).

But... you know those (very very few) changes did nothing at all and definitely not required 80% of their effort? More like 0.1%?That's the entire point, the exact problem that falan was talking about. If things like this were 80% of changes then it clearly required 80% of effort. The fact that their total effort is super low is irrelevant to that point.

Like buffing Cleansing wave's base healing by 20%. Nois. Took me 5 seconds to change the value, if my database is slow.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@MrPhantasia.5924 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:It has always been the case that people whined the most about Mesmer - so it gets the most nerfs, and it gets the nerfs first. Bunker Chrono will see a decline in popularity, people will realize that other classes were just as strong, complain about them and we'll see them get nerfed in the next patches.

One can only hope. Though I have noticed a gradual uptick in complaints about the other meta builds lately. They're even getting their own complaint threads, though not nearly to the extent mesmer has. It's like people are finally seeing the elephant in the room with this upcoming patch where Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are completely untouched as far as nerfs, while Mesmer's year of nerfs continues.

Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are all some of the most balanced, highest risk high reward, highest skill cap builds to have ever existed in the history of this game.

Mirage deserved all the nerfs it got and then some. Even what they've done isn't enough to kitten mirage and kitten mesmer as a whole.

I am enjoying your troll posts. :joy:

@"ButterPeanut.9746" said:Folks need to understand the actual important part about this patch. The significant part of this patch is that it is coming roughly 6 weeks after the last balance patch.

There is no reason to complain for years that the balance patches aren't frequent enough, and then when we get frequent balance patches, complain that each one doesn't contain every single nerf needed at that specific moment.

The appropriate nerfs will come, as long as they keep up a pretty aggressive pace with these patches then we're moving in the right direction. With this particular one it was clear that Berserker rework and some rev/druid changes were the major focus, just like scrapper rework a few weeks back.

I hope you're right. I do get the sense that the updates are always however many months behind the meta, and it's a prolonged period of catch-up.

I'd like to say that with this latest update they have pretty much "caught up" to Mesmer's degree of being over tuned. They've deleted the top two remaining things even honest Mes mains said were broken: Evasive Mirror and Scepter 3 damage. It's debatable whether they addressed these in the best way, but they took several swings of the nerf bat nonetheless. Unfortunately, too many of the nerfs to Mesmer in its ongoing 12-months+ of nerfs are simply numbers tweaks rather than reworks.

Mesmer aside, if we don't start seeing some serious attention towards the other meta specs in the next update, that will be disappointing. It is just taking way too long to address major problems with overperforming builds. It shouldn't have taken a year to nerf Mesmers, especially considering it was mostly numbers tweaks, and it should not take so long for the other builds either.

I think they ought to focus on balancing long-known over-performing builds (the power creep is real) before spending so much time reworking (previously) lesser used specs like Scrapper, Berserker, and Druid. Bring everything down to a reasonable level. Then, and only then, start bringing certain things up.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:As far as I can tell, only

one

meta build is getting nerfed, chrono bunker (two if you count condi mirage). How come there is such a distinct lack of nerfs?

@"mortrialus.3062" said:I was hands down one of the most vocal advocates for unnerfing portal when

the nerf initially happened

. I also

voiced support

for unnerfing it in Falndre's thread about bringing portal back. I really don't get were this is coming from.

Steal nerf is just funny because its so left field and thief isn't exactly dominating right now. It's just really left field is all.

There's several other overperforming meta builds right now to be sure, but of them all chronobunk/mirage have been overtuned the longest, with soulbeast a close second.

Portal nerf sucked, Steal nerf is par for the course. Arenanet has a habit of just shanking thieves for no clear reason, labeled as for the sake of balance. They had exhaustion specially made for them and were beaten upside the head with it just out of the blue when someone in the balance team thought unhindered was too strong, and that thieves needed to have their endurance disabled if someone clipped them with cripple, even though Don't Stop in acrobatics does the same thing and thief's best heal removes the effects that would cause exhaustion by default. Then there was the sudden sword thief nerf. Before that it was the "we feel thieves shouldnt do damage now" phase, where people quit their thieves because there was no reason to use them in pvp. Before that it was the sudden removal of ricochet,

I was surprised for the former, but not for the latter. at this point I'm used to just playing harder every patch on thief.

Sometimes I look to the history of thief nerfs in order to comprehend the ongoing history of mesmer nerfs. :/

[Megametzler.5729]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Falan.1839" said:The problem is that the Anet balance team is somehow madly in love with underplayed garbage builds and puts 80% of its effort into buffing them (usually either with no impact at all or overdoing it as on Scrapper) (...)

Except ele.

I am sad, angry and satisfied all at the same time.

No, that also goes for ele.

You seem to have a different definition of being "madly in love" then...

He said they in love with underplayed things and ignore relevant things, which is exactly what they did with ele (e.g. tempest buffs and d/d changes).

But... you know those (very very few) changes did nothing at all and definitely not required 80% of their effort? More like 0.1%?That's the entire point, the exact problem that falan was talking about. If things like this were 80% of changes then it clearly required 80% of effort. The fact that their total effort is super low is irrelevant to that point.

Like buffing Cleansing wave's base healing by 20%. Nois. Took me 5 seconds to change the value, if my database is slow.

Maybe I understod his words differently, but:

Ele got nothing. Like, basically absolutely nothing. For 1.5 years. "Wash the pain away clears one condition" was the biggest PVP change we had since then. Ele's balance change list has been among the shortest for the same time. It very obviously is not only not worked on, it doesn't need changes according to Anet. Who got reworks meanwhile? Deadeye, mesmer, scrapper, now berserker... they do put in a lot of effort. Often on specs not needing them.

But never on ele. Noone there even plays ele at this point, a lot of us believe. And there certainly is not many changes nor the slightest bit of love.

[Quadox.7834]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Falan.1839" said:The problem is that the Anet balance team is somehow madly in love with underplayed garbage builds and puts 80% of its effort into buffing them (usually either with no impact at all or overdoing it as on Scrapper) (...)

Except ele.

I am sad, angry and satisfied all at the same time.

No, that also goes for ele.

You seem to have a different definition of being "madly in love" then...

He said they in love with underplayed things and ignore relevant things, which is exactly what they did with ele (e.g. tempest buffs and d/d changes).

But... you know those (very very few) changes did nothing at all and definitely not required 80% of their effort? More like 0.1%?That's the entire point, the exact problem that falan was talking about. If things like this were 80% of changes then it clearly required 80% of effort. The fact that their total effort is super low is irrelevant to that point.

Like buffing Cleansing wave's base healing by 20%. Nois. Took me 5 seconds to change the value, if my database is slow.

Maybe I understod his words differently, but:

Ele got nothing. Like, basically absolutely nothing. For 1.5 years. "Wash the pain away clears one condition" was the biggest PVP change we had since then. Ele's balance change list has been among the shortest for the same time. It very obviously is not only not worked on, it doesn't need changes according to Anet. Who got reworks meanwhile? Deadeye, mesmer, scrapper, now berserker... they do put in a lot of effort. Often on specs not needing them.

But never on ele. Noone there even plays ele at this point, a lot of us believe. And there certainly is not many changes nor the slightest bit of love.

Not sure tbey do put effort into specs that don't need it. Closest one would perhaps be scrapper, the rest of those (mes, deadeye, berserker) had reason for rework.

[BlackTruth.6813]

Non-meta and no one will probably care but Berserker skill cap lowered (can't combine normal Skull Crack > 3 mace autos >headbutt > primal F1 skull grinder or mind game with normal F1 stow/weapon cancel dodge bait and finish with a primal burst anymore) . decapitate got gutted, and Arcing Slice change isn't special.

Bad "fix" overall. Watch ANET make berserker "viable" but disgustingly un-intuitive and braindead in a later patch.

Can't rely on ANET for anything.

[Teb.6980]

Meanwhile I'll cry in a corner to mourn the death of what I used to think was the coolest skill available to engineers:

Prime Light Beam: Reduced power coefficient from 3.0 to 0.01.

[Chaith.8256]

@Teb.6980 said:Meanwhile I'll cry in a corner to mourn the death of what I used to think was the coolest skill available to engineers:

Prime Light Beam: Reduced power coefficient from 3.0 to 0.01.

This thread is 10 months old, huh?