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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

You might be right there, if I could stand using Mirage. The lack of moving on dodge with the AoEmeta of WvW right now makes me stick with core or Chronomancer. But I might need to swap out Inspiration and go something like Chaos/Dueling/Chrono and get some of those sigils.

It is worth trying, specially if you got legendary weapons, then it is worth keeping even. :)

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:Yeah my issue with Mirage Advance was lack of evade frame - not going to waste dodge to cover that animation when you've got StG or even IA with nerfed cooldown that provide evade frame and stunbreak/pseudo-stunbreak.

The advance portion definitely feels clunky due to its cast time and inexplicably short range. However, don't forget that you also get the retreat, which is instant, 1200 range, and a target break. It's not a bad skill, but it would become a GREAT skill if the advance portion were instant and 1200 range as well!

I can already hear thieves crying foul about
if we got this. :p

Would be funny to offer them the same treatment but once they return they have 25s cd on it :joy:

I doubt they would like that

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Soulbeast is anets current "must buff this every patch" spec tbh.You spelled engineer wrong

Why not both?

@Heartpains.7312 said:

You might be right there, if I could stand using Mirage. The lack of moving on dodge with the AoEmeta of WvW right now makes me stick with core or Chronomancer. But I might need to swap out Inspiration and go something like Chaos/Dueling/Chrono and get some of those sigils.

It is worth trying, specially if you got legendary weapons, then it is worth keeping even. :)

I do not. The game has never seen fit to grant me a pre via RNG, and I hate collections more than being audited.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Deceptive Evasion is such a massive crutch right now as it used to be before HoT and Insp/Illu/Chrono shatter spam...

Mirage is almost entirely carried by this and IH - take either away and the whole thing falls apart.

Regarding mirage, the joke is it's actually not bad - the single build/playstyle that works (regardless of damage type, power or condi)... There's just no foundation for variety or any kind of choice - you either play IH/DE with whatever weapons/stat set and do well, or you don't and... don't.

The sad part is that Deceptive Evasion was mandatory before HoT and the devs designed chronomancer to finally add some illusion upkeep traits that could finally replace Deceptive Evasion, so that the Dueling trait line would no longer be mandetory. However, they just over did it through the synergies of chronophantasma and illusionary reversion. Additionally, the condition traits on core mesmer back then were not designed around high illusion upkeep. So, what happened? Core mesmer condition traits were nerfed to no longer work as well with high illusion upkeep
AND
illusion upkeep on chrono was gutted. Future: What a surprise, non of the nerfs were reverted even though they were all no longer necessary. They were then still far too scared to add sufficient illusion upkeep to mirage that could replace DE while at the same time making illusion upkeep more necessary then ever to be viable. The net result being going back in time to where the Dueling trait line is once again only mandatory
because
of Deceptive Evasion.

RESULTS
Build Variety:
TRASHED
Trait Variety:
TRASHED
Mesmer:
TRASHED
GW2:
TRASHED

You nailed it.

The chrono bandaids were nerfed out of existence (eg Illusionary Reversion, and then the phantasm rework), and mirage never had any good clone generation to begin with (self deception is kitten useless, especially with cooldown nerfs to deception skills, and axe REQUIRES deceptive evasion to be good for combos).

Duelling traitline is largely kitten since the nerfs apart from this almost mandatory GM trait that carries the entirety of mirage.

Nevermind IH - I'll hold of ranting about that design failure which should be a minor trait ever since pof launched (which I recall harping on about then too...). The joke is both these together make mirage good - there's no other foundation for mirage without both of these.

I'll stop there! :p

With Power becoming the only viable option for Mesmer, Deceptive Evasion is even more vital to keep clones up for the shatter damage. Dueling is so vitial for just that ONE trait that it's a large part of why I am back to playing only Core Mesmer.

You MUST have Dueling for DE.

You MUST have Inspiration for Condi Cleanse and what little support we have left to give.

And in most cases, you MUST have Chaos for self defense. So, we really can't even slot an Elite Trait Line.

I would like a partial refund on HoT and PoF for the Elite specs I paid for on my main that I can't really use anymore because people whine
all the time all over these boards.

Blinding Dissipation+Ineptitude was my favorite trait combo and synergy back when it and illusions could actually accomplish things. Imagine that, a traitline where everything is giving you good value and Deceptive Evasion wasn't mandatory or even primarily run. I still adore the flavor and idea of it. Mesmer just doesn't feel like mesmer to me if it isn't getting most of it's damage and kills through confusion and torment. And Portal, what made me want to play mesmer in the first place back in Heart of Thorns, got smiter's booned as well.

Meanwhile let's have 25k spammable 450 radius arc dividers.

To be honest though, BD + Ineptitude was never healthy since Anet decided confusion should be a more limited burst condition and removed it from most other spammable sources (eg staff ambush, axe ambush, illusionary retribution). That combo remained a spammable instant (due to shatters being instant) source of confusion which is good to be changed in some way, though not necessarily in the way it was done - eg F2 is too long a cooldown for its effect and ought to be on par with F1.

Old Confusion, bleedy style confusion was waaaaaay more consistently bursty and with far less counter play. I have distinct memories of globalling scourges before the confusion rework just because 30+ confusion that tick damage like bleed on top of the torment and the 3x burn stacks from pre-nerf Prestige was a CRAZY amount of damage. And this was back when everyone was raging at scourges for being godmode.

Post rework it could be similarly bursty but smart players could play around it to the point where people abandoned condition for those disenchanter Sword+Sword mirages for a while until everyone realized how good condition still was and the migh stacking from OH Sword and Illusions got nerfed in PvP.

For the record DE + IH is unhealthy due to passive damage application from clones - I've had situations where ressing an ally and using dodge for evade frames, where clones have almost downed the guy trying to cleave and interrupt... This is stupid because requires no effort from myself.

However in this situation regarding IH I believe two things should happen to fix it:

  1. Make it GM minor.
  2. Allow clones to evade and ambush, but shift MAJORITY of damage on to player ambush only, so clones deal minimal damage on their own.

I personally believe 2. Infinite Horizon in PvP is the sort of thing like Necromancer minions, spirit rangers, turret engineers, that's just unhealthy for the game. Even less healthy than Elusive Mind quite frankly. I've always known it was going to be trouble. Balance condi mirage 100% around skill shots like Scepter and Axe 3, and Shatters.

When initially released the clone ambushes were all very bad so for direct damage it was way better to run Dune Cloak and make 3x pistol phantasms and never shatter. Mirage players hated this and wanted to play with clones so Anet buffed all the clone ambush attacks to being more valuable than pistol phantasms and never shattering them. This put DPS mirage in an even more weird place where neither phantasms nor shatters were being used in PvE, that's 2/3rds of mesmer's class mechanic. I'm like 90% convinced what Infinite Horizon did to mesmer gameplay in PvE is why the phantasm update happened in the first place.

I'm personally of the opinion that aside from shatters clones shouldn't be doing any real damage on their own in PvP. In PvE you can get away with it because mobs don't need any sense of fair play.

Being a minor trait it wouldn't be necessary to have clone ambushes deal much damage because it would be enough for a player ambush enhancement and evade frames for illusions (keep them alive for shatter etc), together with thematic flavour and deception of clones casting ambushes.

I know you're going to say the previous point of making it so DE spawned clone didn't ambush, however I believe that would only be a band aid fix rather than sorting out the root of the problem being passive damage application via dodging - which is kind of a new version of how clone death used to work with dodging, just with new visual effects.

Edit - one other thing, IF Anet decide to do a big overhaul and rework shatters for both Chrono and Mirage (highly unlikely, but who knows...) such that for mirage things like F1 and F2 became clone "orders" - eg order your clones to ambush on a target - then sure clones can keep the damage component, because it would require some separate interaction to cast. But I can't see this realistically happening, so feel it's best that clones lose damage on ambush and have it be mostly visual flavour and utility (eg boons, effects, movement - like on spear and sword for shatter combos, etc).

If Anet ever decides to rework shatters from the ground up I'd rather see clones behave more like classic RPG illusions in that they are intangible and can neither interact nor be interacted with. That way you always want your enemy to be attacking your clones instead of you and just dodging because that represents real cooldown wasting for them and momentum for you. It's always been weird that cleaving clones is one of the best things you can do against a mesmer because that removes their ammo for their class mechanic, meaning both their offensive and defensive capabilities are hindered.

But that's a discussion for another day.

On the other hand player ambush should be in turn hugely boosted to be properly impactful and dangerous - so the challenge for enemies would be to know which ambush to dodge, to identify the player's attack amongst the clones doing the same attack.

No argument here. It's straight up stupid that stuff like the warrior minor dodge trait can unblockably crit for 6k while the Axe and Scepter ambushes will in total when you combine their physical and condition damage will barely do 3k damage with a fully powered 3 clone ambush attack with realistic PvP stats.

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RESULTS
Build Variety:
TRASHED
Trait Variety:
TRASHED
Mesmer:
TRASHED
GW2:
TRASHED

That sounds overly strong and misleading. There is a problem with build variety, mostly because of trait variety. But to call all of GW2 trashed because of it goes way too far. There is a lot to enjoy.

You MUST have Dueling for DE.

Really? I run dueling without Deceptive Evasion, prefering Superiority Complex. I find without Superiority Complex I have trouble keeping up the pressure I need. I find shatter skills do not help me keep up pressure enough. Now, if I spec the illusion traitline and turning Mind Wrack into an Ammo Skill (with a whopping 2 (!) charges), and the recharge reduction on shatters AND the signet which refreshes shatters, DE might be worth it. But I find it way easier to play without the focus on clones, double mantra (pain + distraction), domination, dueling and mirage.

I do not constanty generate clones, but thanks to GS 4 and Domination Imagined Burden and the healing signet I can generate clones (while also dealing damage) better and apply more pressure than using other methods.

You MUST have Inspiration for Condi Cleanse and what little support we have left to give.

Jaunt and Torch 4 do the job for me. Yes, it is not as consistent as Inspiration, but with inspiration I mgiht have condi cleanse, but I lack the ability to pressure. Inspiration costs way too much damage to be worth it. The win in defense and healing fo me simply is not worth it.

And in most cases, you MUST have Chaos for self defense. So, we really can't even slot an Elite Trait Line.

Doesn't worrk for me either. I find specing Mirage works way better for my self defense. Jaunt combined with blink, combined possibly with Torch 4 helps me survive better, than anything Chaos offers me. (though Blink and Torch 4 work generally for Mirage). Thanks to Mirage Cloak I can keep up some pressure while dodging, which in the end also helps me survive.I find the active defenses on any Mesmer traitline, weapon and utility combination lacking. In my view of things damage, quick damage, and lots of damage fast is the best way for me to survive.

So much for build variety. You play a totally different build than me, and what each of us does, seems to work for that person. What bothers me most is, that the defense lines I could theoretically spec actually do not help me nearly enough to be worth it. The cost in terms of pressure which I lack for me aren't worth chaos or inspiration.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"nthmetal.9652" said:From your post I can conlude you are playing different game. Especially meme'ing what I have seen from you was "I'm doing fine in zerg vs zerg and I terrify enemy zerg with my clones!"

I am doing fine in zerg vs zerg fights, but that's beside the point. What I am not saying is that Mesmer is doing fine. I just don't agree with the statement, that it's utterly and completely broken. I have stated before, and I will happily state again, that IMO there should be another way for Mesmer to offer support, especially a more effective way. I don't agree with the statement, that there is only one way to play Mesmer.

It all depends on how you play the game mode you're playing - and it obviously also depends on the game mode in general. I quite obviously play a lot different than @Kylden Ar.3724 , and what works for them does not work for me, and probably vice versa.

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@nthmetal.9652 said:I have stated before, and I will happily state again, that IMO there should be another way for Mesmer to offer support, especially a more effective way. I don't agree with the statement, that there is only one way to play Mesmer.Doesnt matter how you want to believe in that, its not how mesmer was designed. Its like if insane teamfight monster necromancer will start to demand to be good at 1x1'sOn top of that he is right in hist statement about need for these traitlines and you too,that if you trade damage traitline for supportive you have close to no damage. only that you said correct to my taste.Saying -2 condis on 30s cd is fine is highly .... mmmmmmmmm....untrue,you meet cmirage or scourge and you will change your mind instant but thats prolly not an issue on wvw with -3 condi sigil on both weapons (in short-roaming meetings IF two players want to duel)

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@mortrialus.3062 said:When initially released the clone ambushes were all very bad so for direct damage it was way better to run Dune Cloak and make 3x pistol phantasms and never shatter. Mirage players hated this and wanted to play with clones so Anet buffed all the clone ambush attacks to being more valuable than pistol phantasms and never shattering them. This put DPS mirage in an even more weird place where neither phantasms nor shatters were being used in PvE, that's 2/3rds of mesmer's class mechanic. I'm like 90% convinced what Infinite Horizon did to mesmer gameplay in PvE is why the phantasm update happened in the first place.

It is pretty obvious you never played Mesmer pre PoF.

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Odik mentioned this one:

Dune cloak vs thermal release valve.Damage: 133 (0.5)? VS Damage: 199 (0.75) Cannot Critical HitBleeding (4s): 264 Damage VS Burning (6s): 786 DamageNothing vs 15% heat loss (fueled by permanent vigor/adrenal implant)Nothing vs 786 heal on heat loss per evade(fueled by permanent vigor/adrenal implant)Increase condi duration on bleeding enemies vs nothing.

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@Levetty.1279 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:When initially released the clone ambushes were all very bad so for direct damage it was way better to run Dune Cloak and make 3x pistol phantasms and never shatter. Mirage players hated this and wanted to play with clones so Anet buffed all the clone ambush attacks to being more valuable than pistol phantasms and never shattering them. This put DPS mirage in an even more weird place where neither phantasms nor shatters were being used in PvE, that's 2/3rds of mesmer's class mechanic. I'm like 90% convinced what Infinite Horizon did to mesmer gameplay in PvE is why the phantasm update happened in the first place.

It is pretty obvious you never played Mesmer pre PoF.

The difference is that the two core DPS builds that people run were bad, barely viable, and hardly run. And Support Chronomancer in Heart of Thorns didn't have this problem at all.

I did play mesmer pre PoF, primarily support Chrono in PvE and Condi Chrono in PvP. Core mesmer did have a subpar power dps build and a subpar condi dps build, yes they never shattered in raids. But those builds were barely used in the first place. And yes, they did use phantasms and let them ramp up DPS while never shattering.

The difference is that those were barely run in PvE with Chronomancer dominating and defining mesmer in PvE in Heart of Thorns, which didn't have this problem at all and used clones shatters and phantasms frequently, and both still at least used phantasms which were supposed to do damage while leaving non DPS clones out of it's rotation.

Where as with Path of Fire Mirage was a viable raid DPS build, started seeing a lot of actual usage, and at different points of it's life cycle made literally all of Mesmer's mechanics useless.

So maybe don't make assumptions about people. Because you know what they say about people who make assumptions.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:When initially released the clone ambushes were all very bad so for direct damage it was way better to run Dune Cloak and make 3x pistol phantasms and never shatter. Mirage players hated this and wanted to play with clones so Anet buffed all the clone ambush attacks to being more valuable than pistol phantasms and never shattering them. This put DPS mirage in an even more weird place where neither phantasms nor shatters were being used in PvE, that's 2/3rds of mesmer's class mechanic. I'm like 90% convinced what Infinite Horizon did to mesmer gameplay in PvE is why the phantasm update happened in the first place.

It is pretty obvious you never played Mesmer pre PoF.

The difference is that the two core DPS builds that people run were bad, barely viable, and hardly run. And Support Chronomancer in Heart of Thorns didn't have this problem at all.

I did play mesmer pre PoF, primarily support Chrono in PvE and Condi Chrono in PvP. Core mesmer did have a subpar power dps build and a subpar condi dps build, yes they never shattered in raids. But those builds were barely used in the first place. And yes, they did use phantasms and let them ramp up DPS while never shattering.

The difference is that those were barely run in PvE with Chronomancer dominating and defining mesmer in PvE in Heart of Thorns, which didn't have this problem at all and used clones shatters and phantasms frequently, and both still at least used phantasms which were supposed to do damage while leaving non DPS clones out of it's rotation.

Where as with Path of Fire Mirage was a viable raid DPS build, started seeing a lot of actual usage, and at different points of it's life cycle made literally all of Mesmer's mechanics useless.

So maybe don't make assumptions about people. Because you know what they say about people who make assumptions.

Your reasoning is all over the place. Mirage didn't use shatters and Phantasms but on the other hand Mesmer didn't use clones and Shatters, that's the same amount of ignored mechanics for both. You saying Mesmer DPS builds being bad in PvE means this wasn't a problem is just bizarre, partly because they were bad because of this. People asked for the clone build to be buffed because Phantasm builds didn't work in PvE and we wanted Mirage to actually be different from core Mesmer. They reworked Mesmer because they realised the Mesmer mechanics didn't work in PvE and haven't since launch, core or Mirage, and they finally decided or were able to do reworks on classes/elite specs.

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I'm really interested to see where the reworks of core Mesmer and its Elite specs will lead the profession as a whole. Peronally, I feel Mirage is lacking, but if I read the other forums this mgiht simply be true for players who main primarily any one profession and elite spec. And for me it's not in the area of "I cannot play this", it just leaves me wanting more. This is a bad thing, because it means a little part of me is always going to be unhappy. This is also a good thing, because it means I look forward to the next patch. What concerns me most is that I still don't understand, where the profession is supposed to venture, what its place is supposed to be. So, ArenaNet, keep up the work, but also keep telling us why you do certain things.

And if push comes to shove? I am sure I'll find something else to play and enjoy within this game.

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@Levetty.1279 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:When initially released the clone ambushes were all very bad so for direct damage it was way better to run Dune Cloak and make 3x pistol phantasms and never shatter. Mirage players hated this and wanted to play with clones so Anet buffed all the clone ambush attacks to being more valuable than pistol phantasms and never shattering them. This put DPS mirage in an even more weird place where neither phantasms nor shatters were being used in PvE, that's 2/3rds of mesmer's class mechanic. I'm like 90% convinced what Infinite Horizon did to mesmer gameplay in PvE is why the phantasm update happened in the first place.

It is pretty obvious you never played Mesmer pre PoF.

The difference is that the two core DPS builds that people run were bad, barely viable, and hardly run. And Support Chronomancer in Heart of Thorns didn't have this problem at all.

I did play mesmer pre PoF, primarily support Chrono in PvE and Condi Chrono in PvP. Core mesmer did have a subpar power dps build and a subpar condi dps build, yes they never shattered in raids. But those builds were barely used in the first place. And yes, they did use phantasms and let them ramp up DPS while never shattering.

The difference is that those were barely run in PvE with Chronomancer dominating and defining mesmer in PvE in Heart of Thorns, which didn't have this problem at all and used clones shatters and phantasms frequently, and both still at least used phantasms which were supposed to do damage while leaving non DPS clones out of it's rotation.

Where as with Path of Fire Mirage was a viable raid DPS build, started seeing a lot of actual usage, and at different points of it's life cycle made literally all of Mesmer's mechanics useless.

So maybe don't make assumptions about people. Because you know what they say about people who make assumptions.

Your reasoning is all over the place. Mirage didn't use shatters and Phantasms but on the other hand Mesmer didn't use clones and Shatters, that's the same amount of ignored mechanics for both. You saying Mesmer DPS builds being bad in PvE means this wasn't a problem is just bizarre, partly because they were bad because of this. People asked for the clone build to be buffed because Phantasm builds didn't work in PvE and we wanted Mirage to actually be different from core Mesmer. They reworked Mesmer because they realised the Mesmer mechanics didn't work in PvE and haven't since launch, core or Mirage, and they finally decided or were able to do reworks on classes/elite specs.

It's hilarious how petty and bitter you still are over me saying Chronophantasma shouldn't have had the functionality it did post phantasm rework. I'm literally laughing right now.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:When initially released the clone ambushes were all very bad so for direct damage it was way better to run Dune Cloak and make 3x pistol phantasms and never shatter. Mirage players hated this and wanted to play with clones so Anet buffed all the clone ambush attacks to being more valuable than pistol phantasms and never shattering them. This put DPS mirage in an even more weird place where neither phantasms nor shatters were being used in PvE, that's 2/3rds of mesmer's class mechanic. I'm like 90% convinced what Infinite Horizon did to mesmer gameplay in PvE is why the phantasm update happened in the first place.

It is pretty obvious you never played Mesmer pre PoF.

The difference is that the two core DPS builds that people run were bad, barely viable, and hardly run. And Support Chronomancer in Heart of Thorns didn't have this problem at all.

I did play mesmer pre PoF, primarily support Chrono in PvE and Condi Chrono in PvP. Core mesmer did have a subpar power dps build and a subpar condi dps build, yes they never shattered in raids. But those builds were barely used in the first place. And yes, they did use phantasms and let them ramp up DPS while never shattering.

The difference is that those were barely run in PvE with Chronomancer dominating and defining mesmer in PvE in Heart of Thorns, which didn't have this problem at all and used clones shatters and phantasms frequently, and both still at least used phantasms which were supposed to do damage while leaving non DPS clones out of it's rotation.

Where as with Path of Fire Mirage was a viable raid DPS build, started seeing a lot of actual usage, and at different points of it's life cycle made literally all of Mesmer's mechanics useless.

So maybe don't make assumptions about people. Because you know what they say about people who make assumptions.

Your reasoning is all over the place. Mirage didn't use shatters and Phantasms but on the other hand Mesmer didn't use clones and Shatters, that's the same amount of ignored mechanics for both. You saying Mesmer DPS builds being bad in PvE means this wasn't a problem is just bizarre, partly because they were bad because of this. People asked for the clone build to be buffed because Phantasm builds didn't work in PvE and we wanted Mirage to actually be different from core Mesmer. They reworked Mesmer because they realised the Mesmer mechanics didn't work in PvE and haven't since launch, core or Mirage, and they finally decided or were able to do reworks on classes/elite specs.

It's hilarious how petty and bitter you still are over me saying Chronophantasma shouldn't have had the functionality it did post phantasm rework. I'm literally laughing right now.

Ok...pause...

Explain that train of thought. How did you read that response and get " Nah you're still bitter" from it?Are you two PMing in secret you crazy forum lovebirds??

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@Solori.6025 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:When initially released the clone ambushes were all very bad so for direct damage it was way better to run Dune Cloak and make 3x pistol phantasms and never shatter. Mirage players hated this and wanted to play with clones so Anet buffed all the clone ambush attacks to being more valuable than pistol phantasms and never shattering them. This put DPS mirage in an even more weird place where neither phantasms nor shatters were being used in PvE, that's 2/3rds of mesmer's class mechanic. I'm like 90% convinced what Infinite Horizon did to mesmer gameplay in PvE is why the phantasm update happened in the first place.

It is pretty obvious you never played Mesmer pre PoF.

The difference is that the two core DPS builds that people run were bad, barely viable, and hardly run. And Support Chronomancer in Heart of Thorns didn't have this problem at all.

I did play mesmer pre PoF, primarily support Chrono in PvE and Condi Chrono in PvP. Core mesmer did have a subpar power dps build and a subpar condi dps build, yes they never shattered in raids. But those builds were barely used in the first place. And yes, they did use phantasms and let them ramp up DPS while never shattering.

The difference is that those were barely run in PvE with Chronomancer dominating and defining mesmer in PvE in Heart of Thorns, which didn't have this problem at all and used clones shatters and phantasms frequently, and both still at least used phantasms which were supposed to do damage while leaving non DPS clones out of it's rotation.

Where as with Path of Fire Mirage was a viable raid DPS build, started seeing a lot of actual usage, and at different points of it's life cycle made literally all of Mesmer's mechanics useless.

So maybe don't make assumptions about people. Because you know what they say about people who make assumptions.

Your reasoning is all over the place. Mirage didn't use shatters and Phantasms but on the other hand Mesmer didn't use clones and Shatters, that's the same amount of ignored mechanics for both. You saying Mesmer DPS builds being bad in PvE means this wasn't a problem is just bizarre, partly because they were bad because of this. People asked for the clone build to be buffed because Phantasm builds didn't work in PvE and we wanted Mirage to actually be different from core Mesmer. They reworked Mesmer because they realised the Mesmer mechanics didn't work in PvE and haven't since launch, core or Mirage, and they finally decided or were able to do reworks on classes/elite specs.

It's hilarious how petty and bitter you still are over me saying Chronophantasma shouldn't have had the functionality it did post phantasm rework. I'm literally laughing right now.

Ok...pause...

Explain that train of thought. How did you read that response and get " Nah you're still bitter" from it?Are you two PMing in secret you crazy forum lovebirds??

Dude's been bitching about me and making shit talk threads about me since the phantasm update.

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@Solori.6025 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:When initially released the clone ambushes were all very bad so for direct damage it was way better to run Dune Cloak and make 3x pistol phantasms and never shatter. Mirage players hated this and wanted to play with clones so Anet buffed all the clone ambush attacks to being more valuable than pistol phantasms and never shattering them. This put DPS mirage in an even more weird place where neither phantasms nor shatters were being used in PvE, that's 2/3rds of mesmer's class mechanic. I'm like 90% convinced what Infinite Horizon did to mesmer gameplay in PvE is why the phantasm update happened in the first place.

It is pretty obvious you never played Mesmer pre PoF.

The difference is that the two core DPS builds that people run were bad, barely viable, and hardly run. And Support Chronomancer in Heart of Thorns didn't have this problem at all.

I did play mesmer pre PoF, primarily support Chrono in PvE and Condi Chrono in PvP. Core mesmer did have a subpar power dps build and a subpar condi dps build, yes they never shattered in raids. But those builds were barely used in the first place. And yes, they did use phantasms and let them ramp up DPS while never shattering.

The difference is that those were barely run in PvE with Chronomancer dominating and defining mesmer in PvE in Heart of Thorns, which didn't have this problem at all and used clones shatters and phantasms frequently, and both still at least used phantasms which were supposed to do damage while leaving non DPS clones out of it's rotation.

Where as with Path of Fire Mirage was a viable raid DPS build, started seeing a lot of actual usage, and at different points of it's life cycle made literally all of Mesmer's mechanics useless.

So maybe don't make assumptions about people. Because you know what they say about people who make assumptions.

Your reasoning is all over the place. Mirage didn't use shatters and Phantasms but on the other hand Mesmer didn't use clones and Shatters, that's the same amount of ignored mechanics for both. You saying Mesmer DPS builds being bad in PvE means this wasn't a problem is just bizarre, partly because they were bad because of this. People asked for the clone build to be buffed because Phantasm builds didn't work in PvE and we wanted Mirage to actually be different from core Mesmer. They reworked Mesmer because they realised the Mesmer mechanics didn't work in PvE and haven't since launch, core or Mirage, and they finally decided or were able to do reworks on classes/elite specs.

It's hilarious how petty and bitter you still are over me saying Chronophantasma shouldn't have had the functionality it did post phantasm rework. I'm literally laughing right now.

Ok...pause...

Explain that train of thought. How did you read that response and get " Nah you're still bitter" from it?Are you two PMing in secret you crazy forum lovebirds??

Well I thought we were having a discussion but it seems I have upset him at a previous date. I'm not sure how restating the history of the class can cause such an over reaction though. Shame, maybe there should be an age limit on the forum.

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