Toxic wvw Enemies

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

I just witnessed someone bragging they tanked all our supplies at all of our keeps etc because his main is on SoS and he just wanted to help TC tank. I'm sick of this blatant cheating and Anet doing sweet jack shit about any of it. Speed hacks, cooperation between borderlands constant daily griefing and bragging about it over and over yet nothing ever happens to these people. Don't say it's all part of WvW because that's a bloody lie, it hasn't always been like this but it's fast becoming a cesspool now because there is zero mediation or threat to mediate!

[aspirine.6852]

Some toxicity is needed for fights. You need to hate the server or the people on it a bit. Or in case of wsr you need to hate them a lot. :)

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:When is someone 100% retreating a threat?What do you plan on doing after you retreat?

Stop playing WvW?

If the answer is no, then you're still 100% a threat.

If the answer is yes well then sure, I'll give you that. Outside WvW you're not a threat to any objectives.

This^.

The OP stated he was going to go to another camp. Therefore a ‘threat’.

I believe what you're thinking of is: "I would go elsewhere in search of something unguarded."

In case you two didn't know, there are three worlds in WvW. Not everyone is specifically after your world's precious territories. If your thing is to murder everything that breathes, that's your prerogative. Just don't kid yourselves trying to justify it.

I don’t justify. It’s not worth my energy.

And justification isn't needed. But Dawdler, above, and you in full agreement, tried to do just that: justify chasing down and killing a retreating player who signaled they didn't want any trouble, on the theory they are 100% a threat unless they leave WvW. Extreme much?

So, you want to add a mechanism that ‘unflaggs you’ for any PvP engagement? There is no signal that is universally accepted.. (well, tonics and kites are pretty well accepted but..)

No, that would be rather silly. Although I am aware of some games with open-world PvP where players are allowed to turn on a "passive" non-combative state where they can neither harm nor be harmed.

I believed (apparently falsely) that turning tail and (trying) to flee the moment a scary Diamond player charged was a pretty universal: "I'll just be on my way; don't want any trouble." But I suppose that could be interpreted as "100% a threat", because I exist in WvW. lol

So on the one hand you say you don't justify killing because it's not worth your energy, but you did just that above. Just say you like to fight and kill at your whim and own it. No need to pretend there's a reason, but then say you don't need reasons.

I think you misunderstood (or I explained it poorly), I don’t feel a need to ‘justify’ it. I enjoy engaging

anyone

, including those who destroy me. And maybe that is a ‘justification’, but I don’t think either of us benefit from arguing the semantics of that word.

You explained fine. You don't need justification--got it. It's just that you did point to justification when you endorsed Dawdler's claim that I am 100% a threat unless I stop playing WvW; therefore: "I assure you, I would hunt you down until you die or is so far away the effort of attemping to do so is more than disengaging."

Maybe you don't need justification, but you propped up someone else's--justification--so I saw a contradiction.

There is a really neat thing in this game.... I can respawn after I die....

I don’t even lose equipment to someone when I die. It’s really sweet.

That's fine and all. But there's also this limited resource called "time." It tends to get wasted by pointless killing of casuals just trying to do a couple low-impact dailies. Is being killed and sent back to respawn the risk for chasing these dailies? Absolutely. Doesn't mean it has to be the norm. So yeah, you do you and get your jollies off wasting casuals' time. And I'll do me, and not.

See, there is a big reason why we disagree. I don’t view it as wasting anyone’s time. I am simply engaging and making Red = Dead. (It also gains me 10 minutes of time on my skirmish track lol)

If you find those engagements are a waste of time, then maybe WvW isn’t for you. I hate that as I want people to enjoy it, but we both know that there are areas of the game we enjoy more than others

I mean, I know it isn't always easy to see things from another's perspective. But imagine a casual dailies player just trying to get to the nearest enemy camp for the Camp Capturer daily. She's on a low-tier server that's trailing the other worlds in her match. Many friendly WPs are contested. She's new, alone, and has no friends or guild to back her up.

She sets off for a camp that's just about to come off cooldown, but before she gets there, a veteran roamer who's been lurking outside her spawn to pick off zerglings and the influx of dailies players at reset intercepts her. She tries to escape, but her non-upgraded mount is no match for the veteran's fully upgraded, dual-endurance bar, javelin-wielding mount. Not only does he kick her to the curb, he finishes and BMs her, let alone does her the courtesy of letting her recover and continue on.

She respawns. But not only is she reluctant to head for the same camp, she sees that it is already being attacked, and even if it's friendlies, she'll never make it before it's captured. Not only that, other camps she might have attempted have already flipped and are now immune to capture. (The competition for camp dailies among all the little casuals is fierce.) She opens the world map and looks for another option. She sees one on another borderlands, and clicks the WP, only to be presented with: "The world you are trying to enter is currently full. Would you like to queue?"

Does that help you see how someone's time gets wasted?

To be clear, I'm not saying this experience isn't "part of the game." Rather, I'm asking, does it need to be? Does it need to be the norm? Again, seven times out of ten, an enemy passerby opts to chase. And to this day, no one has spared me the stomp when they defeat me. I would probably jump up and down like a school girl and bow if someone actually spared me and let me be on my way. lol

(To me, PvE is like an I.V. of habanero pepper juice concentrated by 50 times)

:lol:

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:When is someone 100% retreating a threat?What do you plan on doing after you retreat?

Stop playing WvW?

If the answer is no, then you're still 100% a threat.

If the answer is yes well then sure, I'll give you that. Outside WvW you're not a threat to any objectives.

This^.

The OP stated he was going to go to another camp. Therefore a ‘threat’.

I believe what you're thinking of is: "I would go elsewhere in search of something unguarded."

In case you two didn't know, there are three worlds in WvW. Not everyone is specifically after your world's precious territories. If your thing is to murder everything that breathes, that's your prerogative. Just don't kid yourselves trying to justify it.

I don’t justify. It’s not worth my energy.

And justification isn't needed. But Dawdler, above, and you in full agreement, tried to do just that: justify chasing down and killing a retreating player who signaled they didn't want any trouble, on the theory they are 100% a threat unless they leave WvW. Extreme much?

So on the one hand you say you don't justify killing because it's not worth your energy, but you did just that above. Just say you like to fight and kill at your whim and own it. No need to pretend there's a reason, but then say you don't need reasons.

There is a really neat thing in this game.... I can respawn after I die....

I don’t even lose equipment to someone when I die. It’s really sweet.

That's fine and all. But there's also this limited resource called "time." It tends to get wasted by pointless killing of casuals just trying to do a couple low-impact dailies. Is being killed and sent back to respawn the risk for chasing these dailies? Absolutely. Doesn't mean it has to be the norm. So yeah, you do you and get your jollies off wasting casuals' time. And I'll do me, and not.

So... take advantage of any engagement to get better and learn. If you are running a build that you would use in PvE, maybe try something different designed for running alone, tweak it and work on improving.

Or don’t. Just don’t expect people to play the way you think they should.

^ Sound advice.

I imagine the point this person is trying to convey (forgive me for making the assumption) is that they shouldn't require a justification for doing what the game mode allows. I don't think it's particularly relevant what their motivations are. Would you ever know about them if they never told you? You're obviously welcome to feel how you want to feel about those motivations, whatever they may be. But why does it matter so much to you whether you're killed by a friendly player who just likes to fight or a not-so-friendly player who couldn't care less about your feelings on the matter...and also likes to fight?

It's an honest question to ponder. Why does it matter so much? What if it didn't? What would that be like?

Yeah, I'm not really concerned with motivations so much as the "indecencies" I mentioned earlier. Namely: veterans deliberately bullying newbies, stomping when mercy might be in order, and any sort of bm/toxic whispers. I don't really care why they're doing it, so much as that they're doing it, if that makes sense.

I happen to prefer a more noble/honorable/moral/ethical/just/fair/sporting WvW. Opinions may vary on what that means, but the basics are pretty universal.

No, I do not expect the game mode to change for little old me. Adapt or move on, right?

[ASP.8093]

I love discussions that turn one player's farming routine into the yardstick for all "newbie" or "casual" experience.

You can make an exception for the normally-out-of-the-way "Veteran Creature" daily, just as people used to make exceptions for the jumping puzzles even before dailies were added to the game. But most of the dailies are trying to get you to actually play World vs. World — seize some objectives, kill some enemy players, get your hands a little dirty!

Even the rawest of players are "flipping camps," not "killing 5 guards and then logging off until tomorrow."

[LetoII.3782]

There's a retreat feature?O.o

[Sonderm.4639]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

I happen to prefer a more noble/honorable/moral/ethical/just/fair/sporting WvW. Opinions may vary on what that means, but the basics are pretty universal.

That is a lot of words for saying "I want my dailies done quickly."

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372" saidThat is a lot of words for saying "I want my dailies done quickly."

I tried to believe it was more.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372" saidThat is a lot of words for saying "I want my dailies done quickly."

I tried to believe it was more.

You guys are bullies in game and on the forum. :sigh:

[LetoII.3782]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372" saidThat is a lot of words for saying "I want my dailies done quickly."

I tried to believe it was more.

You guys are bullies in game and on the forum. :sigh:

[Strider Pj.2193]

I wish the bullies I met in school and growing up were like us.....

[GutterRat.1269]

In Breaking Bad terms this thread is filled with Heisenbergs, Twilight Tempest is Skylar, and instead of having their last conversation it's just Walt going on about doing it for his family.She already called y'all out. Just have that last conversation.

[Dawdler.8521]

@msalakka.4653 said:In Breaking Bad terms this thread is filled with Heisenbergs, Twilight Tempest is Skylar, and instead of having their last conversation it's just Walt going on about doing it for his family.She already called y'all out. Just have that last conversation.Called us out like a vegetarian calling out meat factory workers.

Sorry just continuing the stupid analogies.

[Senqu.8054]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:When is someone 100% retreating a threat?What do you plan on doing after you retreat?

Stop playing WvW?

If the answer is no, then you're still 100% a threat.

If the answer is yes well then sure, I'll give you that. Outside WvW you're not a threat to any objectives.

This^.

The OP stated he was going to go to another camp. Therefore a ‘threat’.

I believe what you're thinking of is: "I would go elsewhere in search of something unguarded."

In case you two didn't know, there are three worlds in WvW. Not everyone is specifically after your world's precious territories. If your thing is to murder everything that breathes, that's your prerogative. Just don't kid yourselves trying to justify it.

I don’t justify. It’s not worth my energy.

And justification isn't needed. But Dawdler, above, and you in full agreement, tried to do just that: justify chasing down and killing a retreating player who signaled they didn't want any trouble, on the theory they are 100% a threat unless they leave WvW. Extreme much?

So, you want to add a mechanism that ‘unflaggs you’ for any PvP engagement? There is no signal that is universally accepted.. (well, tonics and kites are pretty well accepted but..)

No, that would be rather silly. Although I am aware of some games with open-world PvP where players are allowed to turn on a "passive" non-combative state where they can neither harm nor be harmed.

I believed (apparently falsely) that turning tail and (trying) to flee the moment a scary Diamond player charged was a pretty universal: "I'll just be on my way; don't want any trouble." But I suppose that could be interpreted as "100% a threat", because I

exist

in WvW. lol

So on the one hand you say you don't justify killing because it's not worth your energy, but you did just that above. Just say you like to fight and kill at your whim and own it. No need to pretend there's a reason, but then say you don't need reasons.

I think you misunderstood (or I explained it poorly), I don’t feel a need to ‘justify’ it. I enjoy engaging

anyone

, including those who destroy me. And maybe that is a ‘justification’, but I don’t think either of us benefit from arguing the semantics of that word.

You explained fine. You don't need justification--got it. It's just that you did point to justification when you endorsed Dawdler's claim that I am 100% a threat unless I stop playing WvW; therefore: "I assure you, I would hunt you down until you die or is so far away the effort of attemping to do so is more than disengaging."

Maybe you don't need justification, but you propped up someone else's--justification--so I saw a contradiction.

There is a really neat thing in this game.... I can respawn after I die....

I don’t even lose equipment to someone when I die. It’s really sweet.

That's fine and all. But there's also this limited resource called "time." It tends to get wasted by pointless killing of casuals just trying to do a couple low-impact dailies. Is being killed and sent back to respawn the risk for chasing these dailies? Absolutely. Doesn't mean it has to be the norm. So yeah, you do you and get your jollies off wasting casuals' time. And I'll do me, and not.

See, there is a big reason why we disagree. I don’t view it as wasting anyone’s time. I am simply engaging and making Red = Dead. (It also gains me 10 minutes of time on my skirmish track lol)

If you find those engagements are a waste of time, then maybe WvW isn’t for you. I hate that as I want people to enjoy it, but we both know that there are areas of the game we enjoy more than others

I mean, I know it isn't always easy to see things from another's perspective. But imagine a casual dailies player just trying to get to the nearest enemy camp for the Camp Capturer daily. She's on a low-tier server that's trailing the other worlds in her match. Many friendly WPs are contested. She's new, alone, and has no friends or guild to back her up.

She sets off for a camp that's just about to come off cooldown, but before she gets there, a veteran roamer who's been lurking outside her spawn to pick off zerglings and the influx of dailies players at reset intercepts her. She tries to escape, but her non-upgraded mount is no match for the veteran's fully upgraded, dual-endurance bar, javelin-wielding mount. Not only does he kick her to the curb, he finishes and BMs her, let alone does her the courtesy of letting her recover and continue on.

She respawns. But not only is she reluctant to head for the same camp, she sees that it is already being attacked, and even if it's friendlies, she'll never make it before it's captured. Not only that, other camps she might have attempted have already flipped and are now immune to capture. (The competition for camp dailies among all the little casuals is fierce.) She opens the world map and looks for another option. She sees one on another borderlands, and clicks the WP, only to be presented with: "The world you are trying to enter is currently full. Would you like to queue?"

Does that help you see how someone's time gets wasted?

To be clear, I'm not saying this experience isn't "part of the game." Rather, I'm asking, does it need to be? Does it need to be the norm? Again, seven times out of ten, an enemy passerby opts to chase. And to this day, no one has spared me the stomp when they defeat me. I would probably jump up and down like a school girl and bow if someone actually spared me and let me be on my way. lol

(To me, PvE is like an I.V. of habanero pepper juice concentrated by 50 times)

:lol:

Lmao. In a competitive mode there is no mercy, go to pve then xD since when have people first go to the forum to read if there are some made up rules from players and if you don’t follow them, then what? Dishonor? Blacklist? Ridiculous. The only mercy players will get is that I stomp them right after I brought them to downstate. Heck if they use their Interrupt skill in down state I just let them bleed out.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:The player you let go may have reinforcements and end up killing you. There is no reason to believe that your enemy will show you the same mercy.

People should watch the last 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan

@ArchonWing.9480 said:We do what we do because, frankly, it's nothing. We don't stay up at night thinking if that other player got their daily or just did Vista viewer instead. We kill you because we know it's just a game and you didn't die IRL.

Have you ever seen the original Tron? You should watch Tron. # digitallivesmatter

Today's movie analogies are brought to you by the letter W and the number 4.

[GutterRat.1269]

Chasing down pvers doing dailies isn't roaming, it's just being trash. All it does is validates the preconception that WvWers are elitist, toxic douches. People who do this yet whine about roaming being dead can take a look in the mirror.

[Dawdler.8521]

@msalakka.4653 said:Chasing down pvers doing dailies isn't roaming, it's just being trash. All it does is validates the preconception that WvWers are elitist, toxic douches. People who do this yet whine about roaming being dead can take a look in the mirror.Because imposing your own beliefs of what roaming is and dictating how people should behave in WvW is not at all being elitist or toxic.

[Sonderm.4639]

@msalakka.4653 said:In Breaking Bad terms this thread is filled with Heisenbergs, Twilight Tempest is Skylar, and instead of having their last conversation it's just Walt going on about doing it for his family.She already called y'all out. Just have that last conversation.

Seeing that the poor helpless WvW pleb getting chased down by the big bad diamond veteran has a long posting history in the PvP forum, I wonder who the real Walter White is in this thread :)

[ASP.8093]

@"msalakka.4653" said:Chasing down pvers doing dailies isn't roaming, it's just being trash.

Technically, jumping someone who's out there trying to flip a camp is closer to the design intent for "roaming" than this kind of run-around-looking-for-duels/have-a-picnic-in-the-ruins culture that's developed among a lot of self-identified roamers is.

Again — most of the dailies are designed to get you at least tangentially involved in fights and PPT. (Getting too involved in PPT is how I massively burned out on this game the first time around, so I personally try not to worry too much about it! But the game mode falls apart if people don't at least sort of half-heartedly care about the score.) It's not like they're ganking level 75s in green gear who are just trying to make it to Cursed Shore to complete their personal story.

I get that sometimes being on the losing side of these interactions is Not Fun but that's true of a lot of outnumbered/outgunned type scenarios that are also the bread-and-butter of this game mode.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372 said:

@msalakka.4653 said:In Breaking Bad terms this thread is filled with Heisenbergs, Twilight Tempest is Skylar, and instead of having their last conversation it's just Walt going on about doing it for his family.She already called y'all out. Just have that last conversation.

Seeing that the poor helpless WvW pleb getting chased down by the big bad diamond veteran has a long posting history in the PvP forum, I wonder who the real Walter White is in this thread :)

If you're referring to me, yeah I played PvP mainly for dailies, but decided to take a break from it and try WvW. I play a completely different class in WvW, and it's the first time I've played it outside PvE. WvW also lacks PvP's normalized gear, limited amulets, and absence of food and utilities, so there are more ways for people to have an edge in WvW. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm still a WvW noob for all intents and purposes.

Edited for clarity.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"msalakka.4653" said:Chasing down pvers doing dailies isn't roaming, it's just being trash.

Technically, jumping someone who's out there trying to flip a camp is closer to the design intent for "roaming" than this kind of run-around-looking-for-duels/have-a-picnic-in-the-ruins culture that's developed among a lot of self-identified roamers is.

I pretty much agree with this. I have zero complaints if I'm trying to take a camp and an enemy player tries to stop me.

But the situation I described earlier was a low rank who upon arriving at the outskirts of a camp hoping just to pick off some NPCs, spotted a highly-ranked enemy roamer, and immediately said "never mind." They tried to turn back, but they weren't allowed. "Red = dead" folks may think that's fine, but I'd like to think others exercise more discretion. That's not me trying to impose my beliefs. Just some possibly misplaced hopes.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@"msalakka.4653" said:Chasing down pvers doing dailies isn't roaming, it's just being trash.

Technically, jumping someone who's out there trying to flip a camp is closer to the design intent for "roaming" than this kind of run-around-looking-for-duels/have-a-picnic-in-the-ruins culture that's developed among a lot of self-identified roamers is.

I pretty much agree with this. I have zero complaints if I'm trying to take a camp and an enemy player tries to stop me.

But the situation I described earlier was a low rank who upon arriving at the outskirts of a camp hoping just to pick off some NPCs, spotted a highly-ranked enemy roamer, and immediately said "never mind." They tried to turn back, but they weren't allowed. "Red = dead" folks may think that's fine, but I'd like to think others exercise more discretion. That's not me trying to impose my beliefs. Just some possibly misplaced hopes.

Appreciate it when it happens, but don't be disappointed when it doesn't.

I'd hate to think that I was spoiling anyone else's fun by killing them in WvW. If you politely asked me to stop, I would. The rules of the game mode are clear and by that measure you have no right to ask that of me. However, you're a person with feelings and whether I disagree with your position here is irrelevant. I would absolutely respect your wishes.

But there's a problem. Your feelings cannot dictate the behavior of other players outside of the rules of the game without imposing on them to some degree. You feel this is justified only because it is your position that you are being imposed upon by them when they kill you. This is not a fair or reasonable position to take.

So, again, the Red Rule is the way. Play however you like within the rules, but respect the right of others to do the same and don't take it personally when other players don't follow the same rules of etiquette you afford them. All kills are fair kills. Don't be upset by it. It's just the nature of the game mode.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@msalakka.4653 said:Chasing down pvers doing dailies isn't roaming, it's just being trash. All it does is validates the preconception that WvWers are elitist, toxic douches. People who do this yet whine about roaming being dead can take a look in the mirror.

Speaking of mirrors...

Nobody owes you a thing, champ. That you get salty about being killed in a PvP game mode is your problem. Nobody is out to get you here, and you're the only one being toxic in that scenario.

[Strider Pj.2193]

WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

Yes, I am trying to be polite about it, but it frustrates me that people can't see how they are the ones bringing the toxicity here. When is it ever okay to play a game by bringing your own rules for everyone else to play by? I'm sorry. I know you feel like the victim in this, but I see it the other way around.