Toxic wvw Enemies

[Shroud.2307]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:When is someone 100% retreating a threat?

I know you've already had a lot of responses, but I just want to interject with a different perspective.

I'm the idiot that assumes peoples best intentions. I often only attack players that are; very obviously roaming, to protect objectives, or the back of zergs to thin the herd. PvE players/people just there for dailies I will usually ignore assuming they don't attack me first. I always let people pass if they tonic/toy at me as well.

And 9 times out of 10 it bites me in the ass because these players are afraid of me when they're alone, but when I see them again 2 minutes down the road and they have a bunch of friends, suddenly they're not so scared.

I blame myself for not following the red rule and it's my fault for assuming people will repay me with the same respects I grant them. But this is why you should always assume everyone is hostile.

Strategically, it is best to let someone go when they run out of your comfort zone. Logically, it's best to secure the kill to ensure they get the message and don't return.

Bottom line is that everyone is going to play differently and everyone has their own values. You can't appease everyone and you should never expect people to abide by any rules other than the rules of the game; don't hack, don't exploit. That's it. Those are the rules.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

Well, to be fair it probably applies to all game modes given how Gw2 players go.

In PvE you also have players that join endgame content and try to play however they want (eg do absolutely nothing of value) and get booted as a result. Then they cry endlessly because players were "toxic" when in reality they were just trying to play the game.

As far as game goes, Guild Wars 2 is definitely in the "participation award" category. It means players can be braindead in 99% of situations (with firebrands 99.9%) and never actually have to learn to play. Add on the best rewards come from braindead farms like Silverwastes and you have braindead players that can't even do braindead content without a tag. And if you die, well that's just a waypoint and repair. Wait, nvm, a good chunk of them beg for a res even if the wp is 5 feet away.

Now, honestly, this isn't always a bad thing. Participation ribbons are a good idea to get people into content. MMOs should reflect effort and grind. People deserve to have fun somewhere even if they don't have skill. Skill is overrated; MMOs are also social games. The problem comes when people are too used to it and become entitled to everything. Every time Anet tries to add a hard to get reward, the tears flow. Why are rewards of any value if everybody gets them?

So when they pop into WvW, they exposed for what they are-- deadweight that brings zero value to anything. What would happen if they left WvW forever? Nothing. So to a WvWer, they are even more forgettable than that pair of moas outside Bay. (Though I shouldn't insult the Moas, they usually put up a fight and stick together. Have you seen them stack?)

However, here, it doesn't get rewarded (as much). It's too much to handle. That's the pain of being a toxic casual. If one were a real casual, they just wouldn't care at all, but the pain comes from when people are too casual to try but too hardcore to ignore the result. This is NOT a matter of skill, but of mentality.

Basically, the majority of Guild Wars 2 is a kiddie pool but you have people that drown in it anyways and still insist on swimming in the pool for the big kids.

In conclusion,.

[Strider Pj.2193]

That is true @ArchonWing.9480 .

[Aspen Tie.5084]

It's hilarious when I get a bm toxic whisper. I'm usually only upset when I can't whisper them back because they have blocked me :'(

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

Toxic whispers (the only place I used the word toxic), insulting emotes, corpse jumping, dropping siege, and other forms of BM are "playing the mode as intended"? Even pro-sports have penalties for inappropriate behavior deemed "bad sportsmanship."

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:When is someone 100% retreating a threat?

I know you've already had a lot of responses, but I just want to interject with a different perspective.

I appreciate your perspective. It doesn't come across as chest-thumping, "What you talkin' 'bout, crybaby? Get outta mah game mode. Rarrrrrrr!"

I'm the idiot that assumes peoples best intentions. I often only attack players that are; very obviously roaming, to protect objectives, or the back of zergs to thin the herd. PvE players/people just there for dailies I will usually ignore assuming they don't attack me first. I always let people pass if they tonic/toy at me as well.

I keep saying it, but this is pretty much all I was hoping for from more people. I said "hoping." Not "demanding," as some here seem to interpret it.

And 9 times out of 10 it bites me in the kitten because these players are afraid of me when they're alone, but when I see them again 2 minutes down the road and they have a bunch of friends, suddenly they're not so scared.

I blame myself for not following the red rule and it's my fault for assuming people will repay me with the same respects I grant them. But this is why you should always assume everyone is hostile.

Strategically, it is best to let someone go when they run out of your comfort zone. Logically, it's best to secure the kill to ensure they get the message and don't return.

Yeah I understand this, but I might be an even bigger idiot than you. In all games with optional PvP elements, I never attack first, at least not without a very good reason, such as defending myself or an objective against an obvious attack. In fact, 99% of the time I err towards giving benefit of the doubt, accepting being killed as a consequence of my good faith.

I don't expect everyone to conduct themselves this way. It's just the way I play because I rather die a thousand times than be trigger happy and hurt someone who had no ill-intent. Unfortunately we generally don't have the luxury of being so magnanimous IRL, but since death isn't permanent in games, it's the path I've chosen.

Bottom line is that everyone is going to play differently and everyone has their own values. You can't appease everyone and you should never expect people to abide by any rules other than the rules of the game; don't hack, don't exploit. That's it. Those are the rules.

Agreed.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

Toxic whispers (the only place I used the word toxic), insulting emotes, corpse jumping, dropping siege, and other forms of BM are "playing the mode as intended"? Even pro-sports have penalties for inappropriate behavior deemed "bad sportsmanship."

And what about players who kill you in a group when you're alone? What about players who are more experienced? This whole thread you've made no distinction between these perfectly legitimate behaviors and... Everything else. I think it's pretty disingenuous, frankly.

Toxic? Yeah.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

Toxic whispers (the only place I used the word toxic), insulting emotes, corpse jumping, dropping siege, and other forms of BM are "playing the mode as intended"? Even pro-sports have penalties for inappropriate behavior deemed "bad sportsmanship."

And what about players who kill you in a group when you're alone?

I don't believe I discussed this scenario. If you want my thoughts on it: It sucks, it isn't "fair", but it happens, and it's part of the game. I've been there plenty of times. I don't feel the least bit proud if I'm the one in the group. Nor do I complain if I was the one alone.

What about players who are more experienced?

This, I did touch upon, and I basically said I wish there were more veterans out there like the ones I've seen on YT, as well as some in this very thread, who generally leave low ranks/casuals/PvE-ers/dailies players alone, unless there's a solid reason not to.

This whole thread you've made no distinction between these perfectly legitimate behaviors and... Everything else.

Pretty sure I have. In short, I've expressed wishful thinking that people would exercise more discretion and decency, while accepting, as some have posited, that no one can be bound beyond the rules of the game. Meanwhile, I haven't wavered from labeling the BM behaviors above as toxic, in line with the premise of this thread.

Sorry, but I completely disagree with your assessment here.

I think it's pretty disingenuous, frankly.

I've been as candid about my views as possible. I even responded to the person who took a dig through my post history, and nothing came of it. Not sure how I'm being disingenuous.

Toxic? Yeah.

Sorry you think this of me.

[Sonderm.4639]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

I've been as candid about my views as possible. I even responded to the person who took a dig through my post history, and nothing came of it. Not sure how I'm being disingenuous.

Yeah, I had to dig really, really hard - and as to whether nothing came of it...Let's just say I saw (and frankly still see) no point continuing this conversation.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

Toxic whispers (the only place I used the word toxic), insulting emotes, corpse jumping, dropping siege, and other forms of BM are "playing the mode as intended"? Even pro-sports have penalties for inappropriate behavior deemed "bad sportsmanship."

And what about players who kill you in a group when you're alone?

I don't believe I discussed this scenario. If you want my thoughts on it: It sucks, it isn't "fair", but it happens, and it's part of the game. I've been there plenty of times. I don't feel the least bit proud if I'm the one in the group. Nor do I complain if I was the one alone.

What about players who are more experienced?

This, I did touch upon, and I basically said I wish there were more veterans out there like the ones I've seen on YT, as well as some in this very thread, who generally leave low ranks/casuals/PvE-ers/dailies players alone, unless there's a solid reason not to.

This whole thread you've made no distinction between these perfectly legitimate behaviors and... Everything else.

Pretty sure I have. In short, I've expressed wishful thinking that people would exercise more discretion and decency, while accepting, as some have posited, that no one can be bound beyond the rules of the game. Meanwhile, I haven't wavered from labeling the BM behaviors above as toxic, in line with the premise of this thread.

Sorry, but I completely disagree with your assessment here.

I think it's pretty disingenuous, frankly.

I've been as candid about my views as possible. I even responded to the person who took a dig through my post history, and nothing came of it. Not sure how I'm being disingenuous.

Toxic? Yeah.

Sorry you think this of me.

I apologize if I've mischaracterized your position, but whether you intended to or not you have conflated these things in this thread.

"As I said, I don't mind fair fights, or even uphill fights. It's more the indecency that turns me off. Again, veterans deliberately bullying newbies, stomping when mercy might be in order, and any sort of bm/toxic whispers."

This is an example of such. What you did here was to lump together overtly toxic behaviors with behaviors where the motivation of the other party is ambiguous. How do I know when mercy might be in order? You're saying that I'm in the same conversation with toxic whispers and bullying new players because I chose thumbs down when you would have chosen thumbs up. Is that fair?

In any event, I don't mean to go digging through your post history to score internet points. I feel this is a productive conversation in that it may help players to at least consider which behaviors they view as "toxic" through a different lens. I think a lot of toxicity is simply a result of misinterpretation that results when players are angry and thus likely to assume the worst of enemy player motivations when the overt behaviors don't necessarily indicate that.

I 100% agree with you on the overtly toxic behaviors. I don't do the trolling and trash talk. It doesn't make sense to me and does nothing but make the game worse for myself and everyone around me. I expect if we were to go down a list of behaviors that fall into any sort of grey area between overt and ambiguous, we'd find ourselves in agreement more often than not (or perhaps after some discussion). But for the purposes of this discussion, I think it was an important distinction to make.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

Toxic whispers (the only place I used the word toxic), insulting emotes, corpse jumping, dropping siege, and other forms of BM are "playing the mode as intended"? Even pro-sports have penalties for inappropriate behavior deemed "bad sportsmanship."

And you will notice I didn’t quote you. The whole thread is a mess of people calling others toxic for killing someone in the game.

Never said whispers nor corpse jumping nor siege burials were ok.

I specifically initiated my response to the scenario of ‘turning and running from a camp’. Don’t lump me into the rest.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372 said:

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

I've been as candid about my views as possible. I even responded to the person who took a dig through my post history, and nothing came of it. Not sure how I'm being disingenuous.

Yeah, I had to dig really, really hard - and as to whether nothing came of it...Let's just say I saw (and frankly still see) no point

continuing this conversation

.

Yet... you did just that by replying to a post you weren't even tagged in?

I think you're just defending your embarrassing snooping and failed "gotcha!" attempt, and trying to come out of it looking better than you do.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:WvW: the only mode where you can be branded ‘toxic’ for playing the mode as intended....

Toxic whispers (the only place I used the word toxic), insulting emotes, corpse jumping, dropping siege, and other forms of BM are "playing the mode as intended"? Even pro-sports have penalties for inappropriate behavior deemed "bad sportsmanship."

And what about players who kill you in a group when you're alone?

I don't believe I discussed this scenario. If you want my thoughts on it: It sucks, it isn't "fair", but it happens, and it's part of the game. I've been there plenty of times. I don't feel the least bit proud if I'm the one in the group. Nor do I complain if I was the one alone.

What about players who are more experienced?

This, I did touch upon, and I basically said I wish there were more veterans out there like the ones I've seen on YT, as well as some in this very thread, who generally leave low ranks/casuals/PvE-ers/dailies players alone, unless there's a solid reason not to.

This whole thread you've made no distinction between these perfectly legitimate behaviors and... Everything else.

Pretty sure I have. In short, I've expressed wishful thinking that people would exercise more discretion and decency, while accepting, as some have posited, that no one can be bound beyond the rules of the game. Meanwhile, I haven't wavered from labeling the BM behaviors above as toxic, in line with the premise of this thread.

Sorry, but I completely disagree with your assessment here.

I think it's pretty disingenuous, frankly.

I've been as candid about my views as possible. I even responded to the person who took a dig through my post history, and nothing came of it. Not sure how I'm being disingenuous.

Toxic? Yeah.

Sorry you think this of me.

I apologize if I've mischaracterized your position, but whether you intended to or not you have conflated these things in this thread.

"As I said, I don't mind fair fights, or even uphill fights. It's more the indecency that turns me off. Again, veterans deliberately bullying newbies, stomping when mercy might be in order, and any sort of bm/toxic whispers."

This is an example of such. What you did here was to lump together overtly toxic behaviors with behaviors where the motivation of the other party is ambiguous. How do I know when mercy might be in order? You're saying that I'm in the same conversation with toxic whispers and bullying new players because I chose thumbs down when you would have chosen thumbs up. Is that fair?

I see what you're saying. I don't mean to place debatable moral choices in the same category as overtly toxic BM. They are indeed two distinct topics, and it wasn't my intent to conflate them. If I did, sorry about that.

In any event, I don't mean to go digging through your post history to score internet points.

No worries at all. You simply quoted something from an earlier post in this thread, which is totally legitimate. It's not like you went through unrelated post-history to try (and fail) to discredit me in the present conversation, like someone else did.

I feel this is a productive conversation in that it may help players to at least consider which behaviors they view as "toxic" through a different lens. I think a lot of toxicity is simply a result of misinterpretation that results when players are angry and thus likely to assume the worst of enemy player motivations when the overt behaviors don't necessarily indicate that.

I think so too. For my part, being fairly new, I walked in with certain hopes and expectations based on things I'd seen from veterans on YT and these forums. Am I disappointed that not a single person has spared me a stomp even when it's clear I'm a low rank player who tried to avoid a fight? Yes. Is that disappointment reasonable? Apparently not.

I 100% agree with you on the overtly toxic behaviors. I don't do the trolling and trash talk. It doesn't make sense to me and does nothing but make the game worse for myself and everyone around me. I expect if we were to go down a list of behaviors that fall into any sort of grey area between overt and ambiguous, we'd find ourselves in agreement more often than not (or perhaps after some discussion). But for the purposes of this discussion, I think it was an important distinction to make.

I really appreciate your calm voice of reason in this sometimes heated debate. Thank you.