Evasive Mirror rework

[AliamRationem.5172]

As many have noted, the post-nerf version of this trait is pretty worthless. So, now that we've identified that nobody likes this trait as it stands, how about we come up with some ideas on possible replacements for it?

Rolling with the idea of replacing reflects with speed...

Evasive Speed - Successfully evading an attack grants super speed for 3s (10s icd). When super speed wears off, it grants swiftness for 2s.

[Curunen.8729]

I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

• Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

That way it is short duration and essentially turns only dodges into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

[Kabuki.9103]

So if Evasive Mirror is on the 10s cd, do you dodge?

[Curunen.8729]

@Kabuki.9103 said:So if Evasive Mirror is on the 10s cd, do you dodge?

Are you referring to me or Aliam?

For my post, obviously no icd or I would have mentioned it. The point is to remove the randomness/luck and guesswork but still limit the reflect uptime.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I like reflect on dodge (not evade), ICD 10s

[Kabuki.9103]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Kabuki.9103 said:So if Evasive Mirror is on the 10s cd, do you dodge?

Are you referring to me or Aliam?

For my post, obviously no icd or I would have mentioned it. The point is to remove the randomness/luck and guesswork but still limit the reflect uptime.

Apologies for not being clear or maybe my question doesn't make any sense due to lack knowledge regarding mechanics.

I meant if you hit dodge on mirage, and EM is on 10s icd, does the mirage actually dodge instead of triggering EM? It seems that 10s without either EM or dodge available is a hell of a long time.

[Curunen.8729]

@Kabuki.9103 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Kabuki.9103 said:So if Evasive Mirror is on the 10s cd, do you dodge?

Are you referring to me or Aliam?

For my post, obviously no icd or I would have mentioned it. The point is to remove the randomness/luck and guesswork but still limit the reflect uptime.

Apologies for not being clear or maybe my question doesn't make any sense due to lack knowledge regarding mechanics.

I meant if you hit dodge on mirage, and EM is on 10s icd, does the mirage actually dodge instead of triggering EM? It seems that 10s without either EM or dodge available is a hell of a long time.

We're suggesting redesigns not involving the current way it works so it wouldn't be applicable. Dodge is dodge.

As it currently is, the first instance in combat you evade (on any evade) you get 2s reflect, then its on cooldown for 10s - after which you evade and it procs again, etc.

My suggestion has more in common with how Elusive Mind condi removal works - ie on dodge only, no interaction with other forms of evade.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Someone pointed out to me that super speed refreshes, so mirage cloak super speed would conflict with my suggestion. That's a no go, obviously.

I do like the idea for reflect on dodge (rather than evade). That would make it much more useful (and skillful) than reflect following an evade. Although, if the reflect time is going to be reduced from 2s down to .75s, I'd like to see a shorter icd than 10s.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I don't see a point in getting reflect on dodge, you're already evading, no point in reflecting. It's kind of redundant.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I don't see a point in getting reflect on dodge, you're already evading, no point in reflecting. It's kind of redundant.Its been critical for roaming/smallscaling WvW because of the many ranged gank builds (not to mention returning a 6-8K hammer flying into your face just by looking at a zerg). The mesmer has always been someone that could keep them in check with this counter, much like how steal thieves used to be the perfect counter to mesmers. But everything is nerfed.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I don't see a point in getting reflect on dodge, you're already evading, no point in reflecting. It's kind of redundant.Its been critical for roaming/smallscaling WvW because of the many ranged gank builds (not to mention returning a 6-8K hammer flying into your face just by looking at a zerg). The mesmer has always been someone that could keep them in check with this counter, much like how steal thieves used to be the perfect counter to mesmers. But everything is nerfed.

But evasive mirror gave reflect after the evade, so it was an extra time. Reflect while dodging seems redundant to me. And that's not to say it will screw you up if you cover some stealth skill with mirage cloak.

[Me Games Ma.8426]

@"Lincolnbeard.1735"The main difference between on evade and on dodge is that you trigger it yourself rather than waiting for the opponent to hit you for the reflect to trigger.

In practice that means:A ranger uses point blank shot and wants to follow up with rapid fire. You dodge right before the Point Blank shot hits you.

• On evade: You evade the point black shot and reflect the rapid fire.
• On dodge: You reflect the point blank shot and the ranger get's knocked back.

I think it would allow for much smarter counterplay to make it a 0.75s reflect on dodge that has no internal cooldown.Remember: Previous version can be triggered by any evade (Blurred Frenzy, Mirage Mirrors, Axes of Symmetry,...) the new Version would only be triggered by gitting the dodge key which is limited by the amount of endurance so it wouldn't need an ICD.

I'd highly vote for Curunen's Version (which I have suggested even before the nerf ;) https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/68672/evasive-mirror-suggestion )

[Curunen.8729]

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:I don't see a point in getting reflect on dodge, you're already evading, no point in reflecting. It's kind of redundant.

I think Me Games Ma described it well (and tbh I think Quadox and maybe someone else also suggested something like this prior to the mirage cloak nerf).

How I see it is for dodge normally you evade incoming hits - whereas Evasive Mirror would simply "upgrade" your dodge to not only evade all incoming hits, but also to be able to send some of them (projectiles) back at opponents.

It would be a direct "dodge modification/enhancement" for core. No need for faffing about with ICDs or other contrived mechanics, just a plain upgrade that would be limited itself by endurance. :)

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:I don't see a point in getting reflect on dodge, you're already evading, no point in reflecting. It's kind of redundant.

I think Me Games Ma described it well (and tbh I think Quadox and maybe someone else also suggested something like this prior to the mirage cloak nerf).

How I see it is for dodge normally you evade incoming hits - whereas Evasive Mirror would simply "upgrade" your dodge to not only evade all incoming hits, but also to be able to send some of them (projectiles) back at opponents.

It would be a direct "dodge modification/enhancement" for core. No need for faffing about with ICDs or other contrived mechanics, just a plain upgrade that would be limited itself by endurance. :)

I got it, just don't see any benefit. Plus you'll have the same problems that master of manipulation and mass invisibility had.Let's say you used torch 4 and dodge to avoid something, a projectile was fired before you entered stealth, now you're revealed.Now you could say it already happened before but 2sec reflect after an evade was too good to pass on.

[Vieux P.1238]

At this point, i suggest just remove evasive Mirror completely & leave that trait space empty. Makes every cryers happy.

[Curunen.8729]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I don't see a point in getting reflect on dodge, you're already evading, no point in reflecting. It's kind of redundant.

I think Me Games Ma described it well (and tbh I think Quadox and maybe someone else also suggested something like this prior to the mirage cloak nerf).

How I see it is for dodge normally you evade incoming hits - whereas Evasive Mirror would simply "upgrade" your dodge to not only evade all incoming hits, but also to be able to send some of them (projectiles) back at opponents.

It would be a direct "dodge modification/enhancement" for core. No need for faffing about with ICDs or other contrived mechanics, just a plain upgrade that would be limited itself by endurance. :)

I got it, just don't see any benefit. Plus you'll have the same problems that master of manipulation and mass invisibility had.Let's say you used torch 4 and dodge to avoid something, a projectile was fired before you entered stealth, now you're revealed.Now you could say it already happened before but 2sec reflect after an evade was too good to pass on.

I think the reflect/stealth issue would be a problem with any increased reflect uptime. I've only used prestige as stealth on mirage since the beginning and even then the number of times it "broke" because evasive mirror had procced - usually from an evade beforehand with the reflect duration extending so it immediately got reveal... Even desperate decoy got instantly nullified many times. That was the main reason I preferred detargets and evades instead of stealth.

I'd rather anet if possible were able to change this interaction at it's source such that reflect didn't break stealth (or better yet do a huge game wide redesign on stealth).

[OriOri.8724]

@Curunen.8729 said:I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

• Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

That way it is short duration and essentially turns only dodges into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

• (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion
• Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

[mortrialus.3062]

Sadly if the trait was reworked to be better than 1 blind every 24 seconds or a stacking damage buff mesmers can never actually take advantage of in PvP the community would complain too much so it'll never happen.

[Quadox.7834]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:I don't see a point in getting reflect on dodge, you're already evading, no point in reflecting. It's kind of redundant.

I think Me Games Ma described it well (and tbh I think Quadox and maybe someone else also suggested something like this prior to the mirage cloak nerf).

How I see it is for dodge normally you evade incoming hits - whereas Evasive Mirror would simply "upgrade" your dodge to not only evade all incoming hits, but also to be able to send some of them (projectiles) back at opponents.

It would be a direct "dodge modification/enhancement" for core. No need for faffing about with ICDs or other contrived mechanics, just a plain upgrade that would be limited itself by endurance. :)

Yeah I have suggested that, and I believe it is stronger than people are thinking, and best of all: quite fun to use. For example, say you are versus a power ranger and you see them doing lb4 knock, you can dodge to reflect it to get a nice setup for your burst. Vs holo you can reflect forge 4 or net shot. And so on. Maybe it would be too weak but I think it would at least be worth trying, as it would be a very interactive and skillful trait.

[Quadox.7834]

To add to what I said above, remember that reflect during distortion used to be a viable meta trait, and that was on a 50 second cooldown, vastly worse than every dodge.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Quadox.7834 said:To add to what I said above, remember that reflect during distortion used to be a viable meta trait, and that was on a 50 second cooldown, vastly worse than every dodge.

pepperidge farm remembers

[Curunen.8729]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

• Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

That way it is short duration and essentially turns

only dodges

into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

• (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion
• Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote, but isn't that just the same as previous version (2s mirror on any evade) but without ICD, which would be overpowered?

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:I don't see a point in getting reflect on dodge, you're already evading, no point in reflecting. It's kind of redundant.

I think Me Games Ma described it well (and tbh I think Quadox and maybe someone else also suggested something like this prior to the mirage cloak nerf).

How I see it is for dodge normally you evade incoming hits - whereas Evasive Mirror would simply "upgrade" your dodge to not only evade all incoming hits, but also to be able to send some of them (projectiles) back at opponents.

It would be a direct "dodge modification/enhancement" for core. No need for faffing about with ICDs or other contrived mechanics, just a plain upgrade that would be limited itself by endurance. :)

Yeah I have suggested that, and I believe it is stronger than people are thinking, and best of all: quite fun to use. For example, say you are versus a power ranger and you see them doing lb4 knock, you can dodge to reflect it to get a nice setup for your burst. Vs holo you can reflect forge 4 or net shot. And so on. Maybe it would be too weak but I think it would at least be worth trying, as it would be a very interactive and skillful trait.

It would be pretty fun to have reactionary plays like this - in a similar way as Master of Fragmentation F4 is. I think the short duration of only dodge would make it require good timing to make these plays - and again burning endurance maybe to bounce back a cc or similar to setup a burst etc.

If it ends up too weak they could buff it to 1s on dodge, so it extends 0.25s after dodge evade frame ends - again still reliable/predictable and limited in access (due to endurance being limited) but providing extra cover.

[Xaylin.1860]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

• Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

That way it is short duration and essentially turns

only dodges

into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

• (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion
• Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote, but isn't that just the same as previous version (2s mirror on any evade) but without ICD, which would be overpowered?

Busted ?

Regardless what they do... the ICD in this form has to go. I'm also still salty about Master of Manipulation.

I really want to regain some characteristic skills for baseline Mesmer. This includes reflects and boon removal. So I've been wondering - assuming classes got yet another trait rework and traits are shuffled around - how do you guys feel about giving Sword reflects?

For example, Sword evades (#2 and #4) gain reflect. Plus standard 'Gain Ferocity, gain even more when whielding a Sword'. We would probably have to sacrifice the CD reduction but I'd be up for it.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Quadox.7834 said:To add to what I said above, remember that reflect during distortion used to be a viable meta trait, and that was on a 50 second cooldown, vastly worse than every dodge.

It was also 25% increased critical rate on Mind Wrack, cripple on Cry of Frustration, 5 Target Distraction. All of which were valuable, especially the Cripple on Condi Shatter mesmers.

[Quadox.7834]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Quadox.7834" said:To add to what I said above, remember that reflect during distortion used to be a viable meta trait, and that was on a 50 second cooldown, vastly worse than every dodge.

It was also 25% increased critical rate on Mind Wrack, cripple on Cry of Frustration, 5 Target Distraction. All of which were valuable, especially the Cripple on Condi Shatter mesmers.

No I am talking about before that, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Masterful_Reflection.