Evasive Mirror rework

[OriOri.8724]

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

• Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

That way it is short duration and essentially turns

only dodges

into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

• (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion
• Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote, but isn't that just the same as previous version (2s mirror on any evade) but without ICD, which would be overpowered?

Busted ?

Regardless what they do... the ICD in this form has to go. I'm also still salty about Master of Manipulation.

I really want to regain some characteristic skills for baseline Mesmer. This includes reflects and boon removal. So I've been wondering - assuming classes got yet another trait rework and traits are shuffled around - how do you guys feel about giving Sword reflects?

For example, Sword evades (#2 and #4) gain reflect. Plus standard 'Gain Ferocity, gain even more when whielding a Sword'. We would probably have to sacrifice the CD reduction but I'd be up for it.

You both are misreading option 2. It would only give reflect for the duration of the evade, it wouldn't give the mirror effect at all (unless that's the only way to give reflect, mechanically). So on BF you would reflect for 1 second if you didn't have quickness. On dodging you would reflect for 0.75 seconds. Its significantly weaker than the old version, but I still think its too much, which is why I prefer the first option.

@Quadox.7834 That's not at all relevant anymore, as you are talking about a trait as it existed and was meta before HoT dropped and started this never ending powercreep race. As much as I, and I'm sure a few others, would prefer we went back to where that was a powerful trait, there's no going back now, and you have to balance against the rest of the game. Bringing it up here serves only to attempt to derail the conversation

[Quadox.7834]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

• Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

That way it is short duration and essentially turns

only dodges

into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

• (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion
• Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote, but isn't that just the same as previous version (2s mirror on any evade) but without ICD, which would be overpowered?

Busted ?

Regardless what they do... the ICD in this form has to go. I'm also still salty about Master of Manipulation.

I really want to regain some characteristic skills for baseline Mesmer. This includes reflects and boon removal. So I've been wondering - assuming classes got yet another trait rework and traits are shuffled around - how do you guys feel about giving Sword reflects?

For example, Sword evades (#2 and #4) gain reflect. Plus standard 'Gain Ferocity, gain even more when whielding a Sword'. We would probably have to sacrifice the CD reduction but I'd be up for it.

You both are misreading option 2. It would only give reflect for the duration of the evade, it wouldn't give the mirror effect at all (unless that's the only way to give reflect, mechanically). So on BF you would reflect for 1 second if you didn't have quickness. On dodging you would reflect for 0.75 seconds. Its significantly weaker than the old version, but I still think its too much, which is why I prefer the first option.

@Quadox.7834 That's not at all relevant anymore, as you are talking about a trait as it existed and was meta before HoT dropped and started this never ending powercreep race. As much as I, and I'm sure a few others, would prefer we went back to where that was a powerful trait, there's no going back now, and you have to balance against the rest of the game. Bringing it up here serves only to attempt to derail the conversation.@OriOri.8724 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

• Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

That way it is short duration and essentially turns

only dodges

into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

• (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion
• Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote, but isn't that just the same as previous version (2s mirror on any evade) but without ICD, which would be overpowered?

Busted ?

Regardless what they do... the ICD in this form has to go. I'm also still salty about Master of Manipulation.

I really want to regain some characteristic skills for baseline Mesmer. This includes reflects and boon removal. So I've been wondering - assuming classes got yet another trait rework and traits are shuffled around - how do you guys feel about giving Sword reflects?

For example, Sword evades (#2 and #4) gain reflect. Plus standard 'Gain Ferocity, gain even more when whielding a Sword'. We would probably have to sacrifice the CD reduction but I'd be up for it.

You both are misreading option 2. It would only give reflect for the duration of the evade, it wouldn't give the mirror effect at all (unless that's the only way to give reflect, mechanically). So on BF you would reflect for 1 second if you didn't have quickness. On dodging you would reflect for 0.75 seconds. Its significantly weaker than the old version, but I still think its too much, which is why I prefer the first option.

@Quadox.7834 That's not at all relevant anymore, as you are talking about a trait as it existed and was meta before HoT dropped and started this never ending powercreep race. As much as I, and I'm sure a few others, would prefer we went back to where that was a powerful trait, there's no going back now, and you have to balance against the rest of the game.Something being old does not tell how you how relevant or how strong it is. Deceptive evasion is the same as back then. Power block and mental anguish both do lower damage than back then.

Even still, we can ignore this as I specifically noted that my suggested version is vastly stronger (more powercrept if you will), which seems to be what you are asking for, yet you are ignoring that - maybe you are "attempting to derail the conversation"?

Not only that but my suggestion is pretty much the exact same as your option 2 yet you are trying to lecture me that I "have to balance against the rest of the game".

Bringing it up here serves only to attempt to derail the conversation.That is laughably stupid.

And I think what Curunen and Xaylin (and me) are asking about is that your option 1 seems to be the same as before last patch but even stronger (adding superspeed). It is not about option 2, if I understood them correctly.

[Xaylin.1860]

@Quadox.7834 said:And I think what Curunen and Xaylin (and me) are asking about is that your option 1 seems to be the same as before last patch but even stronger (adding superspeed). It is not about option 2, if I understood them correctly.

We might be mixing up options?

• Reflect on dodge would be different and won't require a CD. However, it limits applications (doesn't work on Evades) which I don't like. And I'm wondering how it worked for Mirage (Mirrors!)
• On Evade basically is just as before. Only the window of opportunity will be different. That's why I don't think it could happen.

[Quadox.7834]

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:And I think what Curunen and Xaylin (and me) are asking about is that your option 1 seems to be the same as before last patch but even stronger (adding superspeed). It is not about option 2, if I understood them correctly.

We might be mixing up options?

• Reflect on dodge would be different and won't require a CD. However, it limits applications (doesn't work on Evades) which I don't like. And I'm wondering how it worked for Mirage (Mirrors!)
• On Evade basically is just as before. Only the window of opportunity will be different. That's why I don't think it could happen.

Yeah, I think I misread a bit, I see what you mean now. What do you think about reflect during dodge (not during any evade)?

[Curunen.8729]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

• Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

That way it is short duration and essentially turns

only dodges

into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

• (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion
• Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote, but isn't that just the same as previous version (2s mirror on any evade) but without ICD, which would be overpowered?

Busted ?

Regardless what they do... the ICD in this form has to go. I'm also still salty about Master of Manipulation.

I really want to regain some characteristic skills for baseline Mesmer. This includes reflects and boon removal. So I've been wondering - assuming classes got yet another trait rework and traits are shuffled around - how do you guys feel about giving Sword reflects?

For example, Sword evades (#2 and #4) gain reflect. Plus standard 'Gain Ferocity, gain even more when whielding a Sword'. We would probably have to sacrifice the CD reduction but I'd be up for it.

You both are misreading option 2. It would only give reflect for the duration of the evade, it wouldn't give the mirror effect at all (unless that's the only way to give reflect, mechanically). So on BF you would reflect for 1 second if you didn't have quickness. On dodging you would reflect for 0.75 seconds. Its significantly weaker than the old version, but I still think its too much, which is why I prefer the first option.

@Quadox.7834 That's not at all relevant anymore, as you are talking about a trait as it existed and was meta before HoT dropped and started this never ending powercreep race. As much as I, and I'm sure a few others, would prefer we went back to where that was a powerful trait, there's no going back now, and you have to balance against the rest of the game. Bringing it up here serves only to attempt to derail the conversation

Ah I read it again and see what you mean.

So option 1 was gain the same old effect of 2s but only from evading via dodge, not from any other evade?

And option 2 similar to what I put but upgrading every evade to a reflect, instead of only dodge.

I'd be happy with option 2, though personally think it could be too powerful instead of limiting the reflect to dodge only.