Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong?


Razor.6392

Recommended Posts

Really low cd static burst aoe CC up the ass lmao. How do you handle them if you aren't playing a class with low cd hard invulns and blocks such as spellbreaker?

They trade nothing for such a straight buff like Photon mode. It doesn't last forever, but the uptime is quite high and the duration moderately long. Each of the spells (bar the autoattack) can do from 5k to 9k damage on a crit too.

As for scrappers, I believe they're tankier than a firebrand, and they become simply impossible to take down if you use a projectile-based class.

How to deal with them as a fresh air ele? (inb4 there's your problem). After all these nerfs shouldn't the matchup be more balanced?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 103
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Engi has an issue where its core traitlines are good in addition to its elite spec being pretty great as well, so anet not only has a difficult time nerfing things, they have a difficult time nerifng the right thing. See - how the core traitlines are strong and supposedly give 'too much sustain', but then there's Heat Therapy plus Thermal Release Valve that pile even more healing on top of the mitigation (and some healing, depending on what they're running) core already offers. That Thermal Release Valve combines damage (By letting you stay in forge longer) with healing (via heat therapy) via straight mitigation (evading an attack) is a whole heap of icing. They really should just remove heat therapy and then see what happens with holosmith.

Not sure about Scrapper. Their projectile thing is a pain, but that's partially an issue on the user of the projectile's side, imo - for ex DJ, which really didn't deserve to lose unblockable. Counterplay really shouldn't be an all or nothing thing. They have nice group support that just so happens to also apply to the scrapper - would rather they shift some of the strength from the scrapper to being dependant on how many allies there are, and/or having to make more choices (they have some dead traits tbh).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do you deal with them as a FA Ele?Cant speak for Scrapper but for Holo, dont let them get close to you, and dont try to 1v1 them. Your build probably wont be sustainable enough to last very long in close quarters, so burst them while they're occupied with someone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You already answered your question, OP.

Many elite specs are an addition to the core rather than an alternative. Scrapper gives up nothing and Holosmith only gives up it's 5th toolbelt skill. They both gain a lot more power. Part of this is due to bad design of elite specs. The mechanics at balanced levels just didn't flow well or felt like they didn't have a purpose. But instead of fixing the design flaws, the developers just increased the numbers. Once the numbers are big enough, it overshadows the subpar flow of the spec.

Alchemy being a very strong trait line also contributed. Practically every engineer build uses it. But it was balanced by the other core trait lines being fairly week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holo is strong, and many player swapped to engineer as their main class competitively because of this. Scrapper is now strong, and it also brought in a lot of new mains. Engineer has pretty strong core traits that work well with their elites. There is a certain heal skill that with he right combos make it broke, also consider the CD is pretty low considering how it is used. That have 15k base health so they can use demo for tankiness and hit hard. I have seen many montages on the forums, youtube, and clips on youtube where they fight outnumbered in all specializations. You see many high level players playing this class, but it can not be because it is strong, right? Top players always play the weakest classes. Most of the nerfs come only when it is so obviously nuts Anet has no choice but to nerf it. Possibility to get every boon in the game. Again, the best boon farting around with bonuses to protection strength. Invuln, superspeed, stealth. BIg AOE CC, damage, Frankenstein elite and toolbelt skills (mesmer, ele, warrior ripoffs). Fun to play, but not against. Support for this thread, maybe after the season, or when the next broke thing comes along. Though, if there is truth about SB 100-0 engis, then maybe that is why we see so much SB hate. Final thought is that Engi is completely fine. We need to L2P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:prob cuz photon forge auto has high range and damage, and the leap is still on a 2s cd loller.

I think the problem is that the "overheat" mechanic was supposed to be a real drawback, but unless the player is braindead or falls asleep while playing, it will never, ever trigger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Razor.6392 said:idk dude with a 2s gap closer and 1050 range that doesn't seem like a real possibility.

Kite spots? Terrain/elevation differences? I also said to not 1v1 them and attack while they're occupied with something else. You're not going to want to facetank a holosmith on something as squishy as FA either way.

@Razor.6392 said:

I think the problem is that the "overheat" mechanic was supposed to be a real drawback, but unless the player is braindead or falls asleep while playing, it will never, ever trigger.The deal with Overheat is also that the threat of such is to serve as a limiter to how long/how many skills you can use in Forge since they all generate varying amounts of heat. Vent Exhaust does lower the danger of such, though, as long as you have dodges to spare to cool down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

because instead of only nerfs, which is what it should've been, they also got a bunch of buffs thanks to incomptent balance team. It the same as mesmers needed only strictly nerfs before but instead got buffs (axe/phantasm + chrono rework/scepter) to compensate for their nerfs every time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Curennos.9307 said:Engi has an issue where its core traitlines are good in addition to its elite spec being pretty great as well, so anet not only has a difficult time nerfing things, they have a difficult time nerifng the right thing. See - how the core traitlines are strong and supposedly give 'too much sustain', but then there's Heat Therapy plus Thermal Release Valve that pile even more healing on top of the mitigation (and some healing, depending on what they're running) core already offers. That Thermal Release Valve combines damage (By letting you stay in forge longer) with healing (via heat therapy) via straight mitigation (evading an attack) is a whole heap of icing. They really should just remove heat therapy and then see what happens with holosmith.

Not sure about Scrapper. Their projectile thing is a pain, but that's partially an issue on the user of the projectile's side, imo - for ex DJ, which really didn't deserve to lose unblockable. Counterplay really shouldn't be an all or nothing thing. They have nice group support that just so happens to also apply to the scrapper - would rather they shift some of the strength from the scrapper to being dependant on how many allies there are, and/or having to make more choices (they have some dead traits tbh).

@Razor.6392 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:prob cuz photon forge auto has high range and damage, and the leap is still on a 2s cd loller.

I think the problem is that the "overheat" mechanic was supposed to be a real drawback, but unless the player is braindead or falls asleep while playing, it will never, ever trigger.

Basically both of these. Holosmith as an elite specialization should not on a philosophical level be providing thing such as healing from Heat Therapy, or Auto Condition Conversion with Prismatic Converter. The whole point of the specialization is high risk for huge damage. Heat Therapy doesn't make sense from a thematic or philosophical perspective. Photon Forge should also have a standard weapon swap cooldown, 10s, and in PvP heat gain should be balanced where if you just spam your skills in Photon Forge recklessly and without consideration you will frequently find yourself trapped in Forge mode and overheating. Managing heat should be an actual high skill cap mechanic.

Alchemy+Inventions combo is still OP. As is Toss Elixir S 6 second stealth duration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a starter, there has not been a nerf to holo since Aug/sept of last year. Most meta builds got either some nerfs or significant nerfs.

Also, engi has significant amount of boon stacking, that still has not been touched. It is the worst offender in this area by a mile (except for FB support).

Add to that high damage, very high sustain and a ridiculous amount of CC, and this is where we currently stand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:engi core sustain being a problem lol. what a joke.

Heal Turret is unambiguously the best heal in the skill in 90% of situations. Probably more. This has always been true since Pre-Hot.

Heat Therapy is a solid amount of healing, but it's Heal Turret being so mathmatically more powerful than other heals and Alchemy that make Holosmith so self sufficient and low risk to play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Razor.6392 said:Really low cd static burst aoe CC up the kitten lmao. How do you handle them if you aren't playing a class with low cd hard invulns and blocks such as spellbreaker?

Depends on the build the holo is running. Of the different specs viable in PvP, holo has the most diversity in builds.

For example, prot holo is an entirely different beast to fight than a spike holo, and you have to approach the two differently.

@Razor.6392 said:They trade nothing for such a straight buff like Photon mode. It doesn't last forever, but the uptime is quite high and the duration moderately long. Each of the spells (bar the autoattack) can do from 5k to 9k damage on a crit too.

Uh, PF does come with some tradeoffs. Nobody said they were particularly bad tradeoffs, but they are there:

  • Lose access to toolbelt f5 skill for PF (powerful for Elixir X and Supply Crate toolbelts)
  • Kits go on 5-second cooldown when activating PF (equivalent of engi weapon swap)
  • Overheating in a teamfight or duel usually means death for the holo unless the opponent can't capitalize on it for some reason
  • Other small annoyances -- cannot pick up environmental objects, doesn't count as a kit (doesn't activate kit traits), stuck in a weird pseudo-combat mode when it's active, etc.

@Razor.6392 said:As for scrappers, I believe they're tankier than a firebrand, and they become simply impossible to take down if you use a projectile-based class.

Bunker scrappers can be taken out with the following:

  • Heavy CC
  • Heavy Power Damage (either spike, or two heavy pressures)

You have to know when to look for the weak points in scrapper rotations. I explained it in this thread.

@Razor.6392 said:How to deal with them as a fresh air ele? (inb4 there's your problem). After all these nerfs shouldn't the matchup be more balanced?

Ele has never been a favorable matchup against holo. The only times I die to ele on my holo is when I'm running a spike holo build, and they spike me or condi me to death. On my prot holo, eles are not a threat by themselves.

Scrapper's been a tank for as long as I can remember, so ele's never had a particularly good hand at killing it.

And core engi vs. core ele... it's been a while since I had one of those fights, but I don't remember fights leaning in ele's favor, because condi engi and cele engi were too heavy on condi/cc respectively to let the ele do its thing.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:engi core sustain being a problem lol. what a joke.

Heal Turret is unambiguously the best heal in the skill in 90% of situations. Probably more. This has always been true since Pre-Hot.

Heat Therapy is a solid amount of healing, but it's Heal Turret being so mathmatically more powerful than other heals and Alchemy that make Holosmith so self sufficient and low risk to play.

Nothing like nerfing core because you dislike an elite spec. :wink:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Q: Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong?

A: Because they haven't really been nerfed.

If you look at the nerfs holo has taken since PoF launch, they have been pretty substantial. Things like:

  • Serious damage reductions on most PF attacks
  • Cooldown increases on most holo utilities
  • Serious stability reduction on Corona Burst + conditions attached

There are still more ways to nerf it of course. I've spoken with @mortrialus.3062 and @Chaith.8256 about reducing heat therapy's base healing (but raising the healing power coefficient), increasing heat on PF attacks, etc. These would effectively serve many of the things you'd like to see without removing flavor from the spec. But in the absence of changes to other classes, other more substantial nerfs would be improper.

The only buffs holo has received were things that should've been in the game in the first place -- namely combo finishers. You could argue that Elixir U was a buff to holo, but it's a core skill, and frankly I preferred the older version.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Engi has an issue where its core traitlines are good in addition to its elite spec being pretty great as well, so anet not only has a difficult time nerfing things, they have a difficult time nerifng the
right
thing. See - how the core traitlines are strong and supposedly give 'too much sustain', but then there's Heat Therapy plus Thermal Release Valve that pile even more healing on top of the mitigation (and some healing, depending on what they're running) core already offers. That Thermal Release Valve combines damage (By letting you stay in forge longer) with healing (via heat therapy) via straight mitigation (evading an attack) is a whole heap of icing. They really should just remove heat therapy and then see what happens with holosmith.

Not sure about Scrapper. Their projectile thing is a pain, but that's partially an issue on the user of the projectile's side, imo - for ex DJ, which really didn't deserve to lose unblockable. Counterplay really shouldn't be an all or nothing thing. They have nice group support that just so happens to also apply to the scrapper - would rather they shift some of the strength from the scrapper to being dependant on how many allies there are, and/or having to make more choices (they have some dead traits tbh).

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:prob cuz photon forge auto has high range and damage, and the leap is still on a 2s cd loller.

I think the problem is that the "overheat" mechanic was supposed to be a real drawback, but unless the player is braindead or falls asleep while playing, it will never, ever trigger.

Basically both of these. Holosmith as an elite specialization should not on a philosophical level be providing thing such as healing from Heat Therapy, or Auto Condition Conversion with Prismatic Converter. The whole point of the specialization is high risk for huge damage. Heat Therapy doesn't make sense from a thematic or philosophical perspective. Photon Forge should also have a standard weapon swap cooldown, 10s, and in PvP heat gain should be balanced where if you just spam your skills in Photon Forge recklessly and without consideration you will frequently find yourself trapped in Forge mode and overheating. Managing heat should be an actual high skill cap mechanic.

Alchemy+Inventions combo is still OP. As is Toss Elixir S 6 second stealth duration.
  1. It actually does have a weapon swap cooldown. You get locked out of kits for 5 seconds, and cannot exit PF for 5 seconds after activating it. Allowing players to re-enter freely punishes them for carelessness, because it's much easier to overheat if you don't go through a full cooldown cycle.
  2. Yeah, it does punish you for carelessness too. If you use the full rotation without care, you will overheat. I do it accidentally from time to time when I'm not paying attention, and I'm in plat. Would've died from it in a match today if a firebrand hadn't been nearby.
  3. How would you increase the skill cap on it?

Also, bear in mind that alchemy was repeatedly nerfed to force engineer players to have to take two defensive lines (Alch+Inv) to get the same amount of utility they used to have in alchemy alone. With how haphazardly the engineer trait lines were assembled pre-HoT specs, a lot of our traits are still bass-ackwards. It's taken them years to get to a point where it's even worth considering other trait lines.

The Firearms line is almost never used in PvP, Explosives only very rarely, and Tools primarily for static discharge and kinetic battery. So our two most offensively-oriented trait lines are hot garbage in PvP because they only synergize with core engi. Then if you look at the specific traits in inventions and alchemy, many of the choices are also hot garbage (comeback cure... really? Soothing detonation? Backpack regen? Health insurance?). Engineer traits on the whole are hot garbage, but somehow we keep engineering new solutions. :sweat_smile:

I highly recommend looking at some of our traitlines to see how much of a mess they are. Firearms and explosives are used almost exclusively in PvE, Alch and Inventions almost exclusively in PvP, Tools is the only one that occasionally crosses over in meta builds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Razor.6392 said:Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

I was offering help on beating scrapper. :smile: If you want help on holo, just tell me what builds you're fighting, and I'll see how I can help.

The conversation devolved pretty quickly from a discussion on holo to core engi though. Core engi has all sorts of issues and is not viable in PvP, but people still want to nerf it all over the place to hurt holo.

Also, proud engi main since 2012. :smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vagrant.7206 said:Nothing like nerfing core because you dislike an elite spec. :wink:

A friendly reminder Anet has never considered core traits off limits when it comes to nerfing over performing specs. If core traitlines have stupid results, like Engineers literally one shotting people from Elixir S with the Mine Sweeper trait the core traits should get nerfed even if the core specialization as a whole isn't being run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Nothing like nerfing core because you dislike an elite spec. :wink:

A friendly reminder Anet has never considered core traits off limits when it comes to nerfing over performing specs. If core traitlines have stupid results, like Engineers literally one shotting people from Elixir S with the Mine Sweeper trait the core traits should get nerfed even if the core specialization as a whole isn't being run.

Yes, but there's nothing particularly egregious about Healing Turret as a heal, unless your complaint is the water field? In which case, you really are all in favor of nerfing the core for no good reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Nothing like nerfing core because you dislike an elite spec. :wink:

A friendly reminder Anet has never considered core traits off limits when it comes to nerfing over performing specs. If core traitlines have stupid results, like Engineers literally one shotting people from Elixir S with the Mine Sweeper trait the core traits should get nerfed even if the core specialization as a whole isn't being run.

Yes, but there's nothing particularly egregious about Healing Turret as a heal, unless your complaint is the water field? In which case, you really are all in favor of nerfing the core for no good reason.

Even back in Pre-Hot Heal Turret has always been very clearly head and shoulders above all other fast popping, requirement free healing skills. It really is like 20-40% stronger than most other similar heal skills. The average heal skill that doesn't have any kind of prerequirement for getting the most out of it's potential tend to have around 200-280 healing per second. Heal turret ends up being 370 hps. Even if you only take Detonate Heal Turret into account in regards to the field, which you always get and doesn't take skill to use, when you actually crunch the numbers the healing per second potential of heal turret is on better than heals like Troll Unguent (339 hps), False Oasis (324 hps) and Healing Signet (344 hps) which are balanced around higher healing per second than instantaneous heals at the expense of happening gradually over a longer period of time. It's a burst healing skill tuned to beyond heal over time levels.

A few heals do have much higher higher upper limits like A.E.D., Natural Healing, Consume Conditions, Defensive Stance, Infuse Light. But these also come with either very certain drawbacks like Natural Healing also removing 7 boons from you, or require very special circumstances to pull off like Infuse Light requiring you to absorb damage to get most of the healing.

It's it game breakingly powerful? Is it destroying conquest? No, but it is an obvious outlier, literally over powered in the actual definition of the words, and things would be better if it was just sanded down a bit, especially since it would still have the higher potential provided by the water field as well as the utility of the condition cleanses. It's just it wouldn't be stacking all of that potential onto what is already the best healing skill in the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...