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Incendiary Ammo should use the Ammunition System.


DanAlcedo.3281

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Um, as a main condi engineer, and one who frequently use that toolkit skill, I wouldn't. Incendiary ammo can deal a serious amount of damage with a Condi build as is, adding an ammo mechanic to it would require damage tweaks at the very least. Otherwise the burn will go out of control

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@Naxos.2503 said:Um, as a main condi engineer, and one who frequently use that toolkit skill, I wouldn't. Incendiary ammo can deal a serious amount of damage with a Condi build as is, adding an ammo mechanic to it would require damage tweaks at the very least. Otherwise the burn will go out of control

You're wrong in many ways but just to give you a perspective, FT2 and pistol 4 do several times over what incendiary ammo does on much shorter cooldowns. You can verify this yourself with any log viewer that can extract logs through arcdps (applies even to WvW).

Incendiary ammo being in an ammo system would be interesting though a very unremarkable change.

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@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Um, as a main condi engineer, and one who frequently use that toolkit skill, I wouldn't. Incendiary ammo can deal a serious amount of damage with a Condi build as is, adding an ammo mechanic to it would require damage tweaks at the very least. Otherwise the burn will go out of control

You're wrong in many ways but just to give you a perspective, FT2 and pistol 4 do several times over what incendiary ammo does on much shorter cooldowns. You can verify this yourself with any log viewer that can extract logs through arcdps (applies even to WvW).

Incendiary ammo being in an ammo system would be interesting though a very unremarkable change.

I'm not denying that it does more. I'm saying it's possible to use them Both together as is, for quite a lot of condi stacking. Engineer lacks many things, but condi stacking is -not- one of them. Another thing you might not realise is that toolkit skills are not balanced in regard to main utility and weapon skills. Toolkit skills are based on Sub-skills. They're inherently built to be less efficient. On it's own, it's fairly logical for incendiary ammo to be less efficient than other skills that arent toolkits.

Again, I want to reiterate : I main a condi engineer. Such a change would benefit me, considering I have incendiary ammo Always available, due to the prominence of flamethrower in condi builds. But even I feel that'd push my damage quite a lot farther than it should be.

While individually, toolkit skills and engineer skills in general arent That damaging, the sheer amount of skills an engineer has at any one point makes it a non issue, by the time I've done half of my full condi rotation, incendiary ammo is available again. If you cut the damage so that it equals the original damage when it uses the ammo system, then sure. Otherwise, that's a flagrant buff, one that is not particularly needed considered how many burns an engineer can pop (especially on Holo spec), let alone all the other condis : Double pistol, shrapnel, flamethrower, bomb kit/grenade kit/flame turret, laser disk and prime light beam (if holo). And then you can add the toolkit to the mix : incendiary ammo, big ol' bomb, napalm/blade burst.

It's easier for me to find a skill that wouldn't let me deal condi : the only ones : the heal skill and pistol 5.

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A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.

Some thoughts:

MH Pistol:

  • Poison Dart Valley could have 2 ammo.
  • Static Shot could have 2 ammo.

FT Kit:

  • Incendiary ammo could have 1-4 ammo depending on how it's tuned.
  • Smoke vent should have 2 ammo.

E-Gun:

  • Glob shot could have 2 ammo.

Tool kit:

  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.
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@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.

Some thoughts:

E-Gun:

  • Glob shot could have 2 ammo.

Tool kit:

  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

I think that would definitely be less egregious in my eye,

Both the Elixir gun and the toolkit bundle are Under used, having ammo on the toolkit in particular would most likely make it a Lot more interesting.

I'm still not really in favor of giving an additional shot at engineer skills dealing condis, mostly due to the fact it's easy for an engineer to have almost all their skills plus toolbelt skills dealing condi damage, thus the stacking could quickly get out of hand. Unless the damage is tweaked to reflect the many uses you'd get, and in that case, it becomes more of a nerf than a buff (needing to activate several times to achieve the same result).

I think the ammo system could have beneficial impacts with engineer yes, but I really am not sure condi is where it should be applied. Toolkit yes, in my opinion that even makes sense for it. Maybe for the bomb and the grenades even, or the mines.

Or maybe I'm actually playing a really underpowered class, and Holo is carrying it, which is possible, but I think ammo condi could get out of hand fast. If the devs want to try it sure, I just hope it wont result in a hard counter nerf afterward

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@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:

  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

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The only issue I have with incendiary ammo is that it doesn't help for short encounters. In open world, it's pretty much wasted on anything below a champion.

I'd prefer a version that were useful against "trash" enemies. For example:

incendiary ammo: all weapon attacks cause burning.Burning duration: 1 secondapplication interval: 1 second (or flamethrower 1 becomes op :P)Incendiary ammo duration: 20 seconds

Granted, for PvP players may prefer the current implementation.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

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From my perspective, I agree with Vagrant that most of our kits are under performing and need buffs. Our most relevant kits only have 1 or 2 skills that carry the entire kit, and even these skills are average compared to other profession's skills. I also agree that a lot of our kit skills should be ammo skills including incendiary ammo.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

Grenade kit still sees play in the core build, with the rest i do agree.

The Last time i can recall that toolkit got a patch was for the infamous meme nerf of the skill 4 Block reduction.

Grenade kit hasnt been touched since their Old rework...

Bomb kit Last patch was for an AA nerf...

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

Grenade kit can stack loads of vulnerability and bleed, mostly; chill and poison when you need it.

E-gun is great for most builds; it has bleed, weakness, and poison, condi cleanse, light field (which can provide might if traited), and a pbAoE unblockable blast finisher which can be used for mobility.

Mortar kit isn't a power kit; you use it for the fields; with a massive range, 100% auto attack projectile finisher, all of the fields in the other skills are combo fields which are useful to blast, leap, or projectile through. See someone down? Land a poison shell on them to tick poison and make it harder for them to res. Need to make a getaway? Drop down the endothermic shell and blast or leap in it for frost aura. Too many conditions or need to blind someone? Drop a flash shell, blast in it to lose a condi, or leap through it for light aura. Need healing? Drop an elixir shell blast or leap in it for healing (might and condi cleanse on impact if traited).

And then there's medkit. Maybe not used in sPvP because you're always fighting someone. It's much more effective in wvw where you have several heal targets and not have to deal with fighting. You can heal, push out boons, and has a water field and blast, aoe condi cleanse. The toolbelt skill also has our shortest heal at 17 seconds, which is our shortest, and goes down to 15 with mechanized deployment.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

Grenade kit can stack loads of vulnerability and bleed, mostly; chill and poison when you need it.

E-gun is great for most builds; it has bleed, weakness, and poison, condi cleanse, light field (which can provide might if traited), and a pbAoE unblockable blast finisher which can be used for mobility.

Mortar kit isn't a power kit; you use it for the fields; with a massive range, 100% auto attack projectile finisher, all of the fields in the other skills are combo fields which are useful to blast, leap, or projectile through. See someone down? Land a poison shell on them to tick poison and make it harder for them to res. Need to make a getaway? Drop down the endothermic shell and blast or leap in it for frost aura. Too many conditions or need to blind someone? Drop a flash shell, blast in it to lose a condi, or leap through it for light aura. Need healing? Drop an elixir shell blast or leap in it for healing (might and condi cleanse on impact if traited).

And then there's medkit. Maybe not used in sPvP because you're always fighting someone. It's much more effective in wvw where you have several heal targets and not have to deal with fighting. You can heal, push out boons, and has a water field and blast, aoe condi cleanse. The toolbelt skill also has our shortest heal at 17 seconds, which is our shortest, and goes down to 15 with mechanized deployment.

Explaining how kits work doesn't make them any more viable than they currently are. I know how they work -- I've used them in plat play. I specified that e-gun and mortar kit only have value for tankier builds, and our other kits are not viable in PvP, at least not at the plat level. More needs to be done to buff those kits.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

Grenade kit can stack loads of vulnerability and bleed, mostly; chill and poison when you need it.

E-gun is great for most builds; it has bleed, weakness, and poison, condi cleanse, light field (which can provide might if traited), and a pbAoE unblockable blast finisher which can be used for mobility.

Mortar kit isn't a power kit; you use it for the fields; with a massive range, 100% auto attack projectile finisher, all of the fields in the other skills are combo fields which are useful to blast, leap, or projectile through. See someone down? Land a poison shell on them to tick poison and make it harder for them to res. Need to make a getaway? Drop down the endothermic shell and blast or leap in it for frost aura. Too many conditions or need to blind someone? Drop a flash shell, blast in it to lose a condi, or leap through it for light aura. Need healing? Drop an elixir shell blast or leap in it for healing (might and condi cleanse on impact if traited).

And then there's medkit. Maybe not used in sPvP because you're always fighting someone. It's much more effective in wvw where you have several heal targets and not have to deal with fighting. You can heal, push out boons, and has a water field and blast, aoe condi cleanse. The toolbelt skill also has our shortest heal at 17 seconds, which is our shortest, and goes down to 15 with mechanized deployment.

Explaining how kits work doesn't make them any more viable than they currently are. I know how they work -- I've used them in plat play. I specified that e-gun and mortar kit only have value for tankier builds, and our other kits are not viable in PvP, at least not at the plat level. More needs to be done to buff those kits.

I run mortar kit and e-gun for a static discharge build for roaming, which (up until the introduction of marauders) was about as far from tanky as you can get. And if I recall correctly, mortar kit got several nerfs, especially the auto; apparently the devs didn't like that we could hit for more than our rifle auto attack with a small aoe at 1500 range. The reason people don't use grenades in pvp is they don't want to bother to lead their attacks. Grenade kit is used all the time in pve is because enemies either stand still or have a giant hit box.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

Grenade kit can stack loads of vulnerability and bleed, mostly; chill and poison when you need it.

E-gun is great for most builds; it has bleed, weakness, and poison, condi cleanse, light field (which can provide might if traited), and a pbAoE unblockable blast finisher which can be used for mobility.

Mortar kit isn't a power kit; you use it for the fields; with a massive range, 100% auto attack projectile finisher, all of the fields in the other skills are combo fields which are useful to blast, leap, or projectile through. See someone down? Land a poison shell on them to tick poison and make it harder for them to res. Need to make a getaway? Drop down the endothermic shell and blast or leap in it for frost aura. Too many conditions or need to blind someone? Drop a flash shell, blast in it to lose a condi, or leap through it for light aura. Need healing? Drop an elixir shell blast or leap in it for healing (might and condi cleanse on impact if traited).

And then there's medkit. Maybe not used in sPvP because you're always fighting someone. It's much more effective in wvw where you have several heal targets and not have to deal with fighting. You can heal, push out boons, and has a water field and blast, aoe condi cleanse. The toolbelt skill also has our shortest heal at 17 seconds, which is our shortest, and goes down to 15 with mechanized deployment.

Explaining how kits work doesn't make them any more viable than they currently are. I know how they work -- I've used them in plat play. I specified that e-gun and mortar kit only have value for tankier builds, and our other kits are not viable in PvP, at least not at the plat level. More needs to be done to buff those kits.

I run mortar kit and e-gun for a static discharge build for roaming, which (up until the introduction of marauders) was about as far from tanky as you can get. And if I recall correctly, mortar kit got several nerfs, especially the auto; apparently the devs didn't like that we could hit for more than our rifle auto attack with a small aoe at 1500 range. The reason people don't use grenades in pvp is they don't want to bother to lead their attacks. Grenade kit is used all the time in pve is because enemies either stand still or have a giant hit box.

I'd like to see your build, if possible.

As for grenades, there are multiple reasons people don't use them in PvP:

  1. Ground targeting every attack is unwieldy when you need to multitask and keep track of other things that are happening.
  2. You have to lead all your attacks about a second in advance despite unpredictable movement patterns
  3. Projectile hate is very real, and very alive. Since all grenades are projectiles, they're are rendered useless by these skills.
  4. There are no built-in defenses contained in it -- there is no "oshit" button, and they leave no defensive fields. You have to pray flash grenade or freeze grenade hit.
  5. Their damage isn't all that great compared to photon forge or other skills. Grenade barrage is the most worthwhile of the bunch.
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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

Grenade kit can stack loads of vulnerability and bleed, mostly; chill and poison when you need it.

E-gun is great for most builds; it has bleed, weakness, and poison, condi cleanse, light field (which can provide might if traited), and a pbAoE unblockable blast finisher which can be used for mobility.

Mortar kit isn't a power kit; you use it for the fields; with a massive range, 100% auto attack projectile finisher, all of the fields in the other skills are combo fields which are useful to blast, leap, or projectile through. See someone down? Land a poison shell on them to tick poison and make it harder for them to res. Need to make a getaway? Drop down the endothermic shell and blast or leap in it for frost aura. Too many conditions or need to blind someone? Drop a flash shell, blast in it to lose a condi, or leap through it for light aura. Need healing? Drop an elixir shell blast or leap in it for healing (might and condi cleanse on impact if traited).

And then there's medkit. Maybe not used in sPvP because you're always fighting someone. It's much more effective in wvw where you have several heal targets and not have to deal with fighting. You can heal, push out boons, and has a water field and blast, aoe condi cleanse. The toolbelt skill also has our shortest heal at 17 seconds, which is our shortest, and goes down to 15 with mechanized deployment.

Explaining how kits work doesn't make them any more viable than they currently are. I know how they work -- I've used them in plat play. I specified that e-gun and mortar kit only have value for tankier builds, and our other kits are not viable in PvP, at least not at the plat level. More needs to be done to buff those kits.

I run mortar kit and e-gun for a static discharge build for roaming, which (up until the introduction of marauders) was about as far from tanky as you can get. And if I recall correctly, mortar kit got several nerfs, especially the auto; apparently the devs didn't like that we could hit for more than our rifle auto attack with a small aoe at 1500 range. The reason people don't use grenades in pvp is they don't want to bother to lead their attacks. Grenade kit is used all the time in pve is because enemies either stand still or have a giant hit box.

I'd like to see your build, if possible.

As for grenades, there are multiple reasons people don't use them in PvP:
  1. Ground targeting every attack is unwieldy when you need to multitask and keep track of other things that are happening.
  2. You have to lead all your attacks about a second in advance despite unpredictable movement patterns
  3. Projectile hate is very real, and very alive. Since all grenades are projectiles, they're are rendered useless by these skills.
  4. There are no built-in defenses contained in it -- there is no "oshit" button, and they leave no defensive fields. You have to pray flash grenade or freeze grenade hit.
  5. Their damage isn't all that great compared to photon forge or other skills. Grenade barrage is the most worthwhile of the bunch.

Also for grenades (speaking from a PvP perspective), unless you take the trait that directly affects grenades, the projectile speed for them is too slow to be useful at any range higher than about 450-550, and even then, you have to lead your target significantly in order to hit them. i'm for buffing some of the engi kits. For Flamethrower, I think if the FT 5 skill pulsed a blinding field for 2-3 seconds with a radius of around 240 or so, it would be a great tool for both sticking to your target, and buying you enough time to possibly resustain a fight. Incendiary Ammo needs a cooldown lowering, as well as Incendiary Powder trait in Firearms. For FT toolbelt Incen Ammo, I think a 30-35s cd would suffice, and for Powder in Firearms, I'd like to see the CD lowered to 5-8s, depending on how they will deal with the burn duration on that particular burn stack that it causes. Bomb kit I think suffers from how the meta currently is, everything hits so hard and has pretty nice mobility, so it's easily kited.

All in all I think engi kits needs some love, as well as some of the trait lines (cough Inventions cough) so that it can see viable play in more levels of play both PvE and PvP/WvW speaking.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

Grenade kit can stack loads of vulnerability and bleed, mostly; chill and poison when you need it.

E-gun is great for most builds; it has bleed, weakness, and poison, condi cleanse, light field (which can provide might if traited), and a pbAoE unblockable blast finisher which can be used for mobility.

Mortar kit isn't a power kit; you use it for the fields; with a massive range, 100% auto attack projectile finisher, all of the fields in the other skills are combo fields which are useful to blast, leap, or projectile through. See someone down? Land a poison shell on them to tick poison and make it harder for them to res. Need to make a getaway? Drop down the endothermic shell and blast or leap in it for frost aura. Too many conditions or need to blind someone? Drop a flash shell, blast in it to lose a condi, or leap through it for light aura. Need healing? Drop an elixir shell blast or leap in it for healing (might and condi cleanse on impact if traited).

And then there's medkit. Maybe not used in sPvP because you're always fighting someone. It's much more effective in wvw where you have several heal targets and not have to deal with fighting. You can heal, push out boons, and has a water field and blast, aoe condi cleanse. The toolbelt skill also has our shortest heal at 17 seconds, which is our shortest, and goes down to 15 with mechanized deployment.

Explaining how kits work doesn't make them any more viable than they currently are. I know how they work -- I've used them in plat play. I specified that e-gun and mortar kit only have value for tankier builds, and our other kits are not viable in PvP, at least not at the plat level. More needs to be done to buff those kits.

I run mortar kit and e-gun for a static discharge build for roaming, which (up until the introduction of marauders) was about as far from tanky as you can get. And if I recall correctly, mortar kit got several nerfs, especially the auto; apparently the devs didn't like that we could hit for more than our rifle auto attack with a small aoe at 1500 range. The reason people don't use grenades in pvp is they don't want to bother to lead their attacks. Grenade kit is used all the time in pve is because enemies either stand still or have a giant hit box.

I'd like to see your build, if possible.

As for grenades, there are multiple reasons people don't use them in PvP:
  1. Ground targeting every attack is unwieldy when you need to multitask and keep track of other things that are happening.
  2. You have to lead all your attacks about a second in advance despite unpredictable movement patterns
  3. Projectile hate is very real, and very alive. Since all grenades are projectiles, they're are rendered useless by these skills.
  4. There are no built-in defenses contained in it -- there is no "oshit" button, and they leave no defensive fields. You have to pray flash grenade or freeze grenade hit.
  5. Their damage isn't all that great compared to photon forge or other skills. Grenade barrage is the most worthwhile of the bunch.

Here is the scrapper variant of static discharge, obviously I used it for WvW roaming. It's based off of Wolfineer's static discharge build. I choose hoebrak runes because of their condition duration and damage resistance, but for more power at the expense of defense, you could choose pack or scholar runes.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUhSsY7WwmKQ7FLsFF4IeiBwYc0jfBdzf8PPA-j1hIQBsT9ntoDAAXAA79AA4nyvPs/QCVCGAIBYmmpAwMNTz0MNTzUXnMNTz0MNTz0MNTz0MVKAvWpB-w

Here's a similar set for pvp.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUhSsY7WwmKQ7FLsF1Yc0jfBdzf8PP4IeiBAA-jJhIQBA4CAcvyAF8BA8h9HAA

Core engineer variant:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY7WwmKQ7FLsFF4IeiBwYc0jfxXSdhHAA-jFCHQByT9nioMQc6AAwFAQgK9ax+DPUJoBeAAvDQAu6VDAX9qXtVvaDwqX9qX9qX9qX9qXtUAftAA-wHolosmoth variant. I felt I could forgo the condition protection from the hoebrak runes since prismatic converter has that covered. I will not use scholar runes since it's easy to lose track of heat levels and overheat when bursting someone down.:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAsanUICFJjtbB2UB0ehF2CbMO0jqNgjoTUAofNGHvjA-jFiIQBJUJ4PUGwO1f4meA79AAOx+DA4EAwPlevDQAuarGAX9qXtVvaDwqX9qX9qX9qX9qXtUAfNMC-w

Since pack runes aren't available in PvP, strength runes are preferred. They give you more might uptime, easily allowing you to reach 25 might stacks during your burst.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAsenUUBFJjtbB2UB0ehF2CbMO0j+C9rx44dEcEdiCAA-jpQOABAs/A4lBAA

With the mortar kit it is possible to lob the projectiles above most projectile defenses. In the case of smoke screen and wall of reflection, I lob a poison gas shell over to pressure them out from behind it.

As for defensive, leaping or blasting in an ice field will give you a frost aura, which is 10% damage reduction and chill any foe that hits you. Poison fields also give aoe weakness which is much more useful than most people believe; negating critical hits is a big hit to power builds. And we all know water fields.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:A lot of engineer kit skills should be ammo skills. You could even make the case for mainhand/offhand pistol having ammo skills, since they're irrelevant in most modes.Tool kit:
  • Throw Wrench could have 2 ammo.
  • Box of nails could have 2-3 ammo
  • Pry bar could have 2 ammo.

Pry bar? Really? That thing already hits like a truck and now you're suggesting that we get to swing it twice in a row? Tool kit needs a rework, since it was supposed to heal turrets; but since they get cleaved almost instantly, it's totally useless. They still haven't fixed the magnet pull bug.

Pry bar only hits like a truck under specific circumstances. The problem is that most of the kits are in a bad way in competitive game modes right now, and they need some clear buffs if they're going to compete. Since they are supposed to be engineer's version of weapon swap, they should be relevant.

Additionally, nowhere did I say the current skills couldn't be modified -- most would likely need to be altered to accommodate for balance if they were turned into ammo skills anyway.

What are you taking about? Most kits are well balanced. Toolkit just doesn't have any real strengths. Other utility kits offer better bleeds and cripple, and they can do it at range too. In the case of the elixir gun, you get weakness with your bleed, and swiftness with your cripple; and at range.

Bomb kit, FT kit, grenade kit, and tool kit are not viable in PvP right now. E-gun and Mortar kit are only useful in tanky builds (and even then for only a handful of skills). We don't talk about med kit.

It's funny because these kits have been buffed over time, albeit slowly. The trouble is they cannot mechanically compete with most HoT or PoF spec weapons, which have been powercreeped to do multiple things at once.

Grenade kit can stack loads of vulnerability and bleed, mostly; chill and poison when you need it.

E-gun is great for most builds; it has bleed, weakness, and poison, condi cleanse, light field (which can provide might if traited), and a pbAoE unblockable blast finisher which can be used for mobility.

Mortar kit isn't a power kit; you use it for the fields; with a massive range, 100% auto attack projectile finisher, all of the fields in the other skills are combo fields which are useful to blast, leap, or projectile through. See someone down? Land a poison shell on them to tick poison and make it harder for them to res. Need to make a getaway? Drop down the endothermic shell and blast or leap in it for frost aura. Too many conditions or need to blind someone? Drop a flash shell, blast in it to lose a condi, or leap through it for light aura. Need healing? Drop an elixir shell blast or leap in it for healing (might and condi cleanse on impact if traited).

And then there's medkit. Maybe not used in sPvP because you're always fighting someone. It's much more effective in wvw where you have several heal targets and not have to deal with fighting. You can heal, push out boons, and has a water field and blast, aoe condi cleanse. The toolbelt skill also has our shortest heal at 17 seconds, which is our shortest, and goes down to 15 with mechanized deployment.

Explaining how kits work doesn't make them any more viable than they currently are. I know how they work -- I've used them in plat play. I specified that e-gun and mortar kit only have value for tankier builds, and our other kits are not viable in PvP, at least not at the plat level. More needs to be done to buff those kits.

I run mortar kit and e-gun for a static discharge build for roaming, which (up until the introduction of marauders) was about as far from tanky as you can get. And if I recall correctly, mortar kit got several nerfs, especially the auto; apparently the devs didn't like that we could hit for more than our rifle auto attack with a small aoe at 1500 range. The reason people don't use grenades in pvp is they don't want to bother to lead their attacks. Grenade kit is used all the time in pve is because enemies either stand still or have a giant hit box.

I'd like to see your build, if possible.

As for grenades, there are multiple reasons people don't use them in PvP:
  1. Ground targeting every attack is unwieldy when you need to multitask and keep track of other things that are happening.
  2. You have to lead all your attacks about a second in advance despite unpredictable movement patterns
  3. Projectile hate is very real, and very alive. Since all grenades are projectiles, they're are rendered useless by these skills.
  4. There are no built-in defenses contained in it -- there is no "oshit" button, and they leave no defensive fields. You have to pray flash grenade or freeze grenade hit.
  5. Their damage isn't all that great compared to photon forge or other skills. Grenade barrage is the most worthwhile of the bunch.

Here is the scrapper variant of static discharge, obviously I used it for WvW roaming. It's based off of Wolfineer's static discharge build. I choose hoebrak runes because of their condition duration and damage resistance, but for more power at the expense of defense, you could choose pack or scholar runes.

Here's a similar set for pvp.

Core engineer variant:
Holosmoth variant. I felt I could forgo the condition protection from the hoebrak runes since prismatic converter has that covered. I will not use scholar runes since it's easy to lose track of heat levels and overheat when bursting someone down.:

Since pack runes aren't available in PvP, strength runes are preferred. They give you more might uptime, easily allowing you to reach 25 might stacks during your burst.

With the mortar kit it is possible to lob the projectiles above most projectile defenses. In the case of smoke screen and wall of reflection, I lob a poison gas shell over to pressure them out from behind it.

As for defensive, leaping or blasting in an ice field will give you a frost aura, which is 10% damage reduction and chill any foe that hits you. Poison fields also give aoe weakness which is much more useful than most people believe; negating critical hits is a big hit to power builds. And we all know water fields.

Not trying to offend, but I was specifically talking about sPvP. WvW has very different needs from sPvP, so long range AoE weaponry like grenades or mortar kit see more utility there, but they also still suffer from the problems I pointed out.

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