So It Doesn't Look Like Platforming was the Issue with HoT

[Vayne.8563]

@Djinn.9245 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:So I can agree with the statement that "platforming wasn't the issue" in HoT, despite the pages & pages of posts saying that it was platforming.

...for you. Hopefully you aren't trying to say (like Vayne) that every single person who said that platforming was a problem for them in HoT was lying.

Misusing a word isn't lying. It is, however, being mistaken. It is entirely possible to call jumping mushrooms platforming. That, however, doesn't make them platforming. Using a mount to jump which requires skill and control is very definitely platforming. Using a mushroom which places you exactly where you need to be is no different than using a portal in DR to get to get from the top level to the bottom (and no one has ever called that platforming). You may call the aesthetic platforming, but the lack of skill required to make the jump makes it not platforming.

[Zaklex.6308]

Completely deviating from the original topic, but one that semi-flows with it. One thing they could've done with the addition of the mounts in PoF and the new maps is eliminate the standing on invisible ledges...there's really no reason for them not to have built the environment to include enough actual land for your mount to stand on, as well as enough for you to dismount and remount. Some jumps are literally made by standing on air, when there's plenty of room even with another ledge below you that you just jumped up from to include the additional space in actual environment art. Speaking of which, I need to go check out that rock cliff in Desolation/Elon Riverlands again to make sure I wasn't seeing through it, might be missing some artwork.

[Vayne.8563]

I'm off the opinion that difficulty wise, PoF is a steppping stone toward the difficulty of HOT and if it had come out first, the reaction to HoT would have been completely different (ignoring the story of course). It would have gotten people used to the mastery system as something they could figure out and then solving the puzzles to get to those mastery points in HoT would have been a much easier task, because people would have been used to the system.

[Vindicus.2130]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vindicus.2130 said:PoF gives you the tools early to deal with all of the terrain whereas HoT took a long time and much more effort to get the mastery points necessary to navigate its labyrinth of z-axis quagmires; and even then was still more frustrating than fun because no tool exists to make the maps less convoluted.

Which is why PoF doesn't feel like it has a sense of progression, and so many people have finished leveling everything but the Griffon over the first week. There's good and bad in everything.

Sorry, but fighting terrain offers me no sense of progression. If you didn't constantly have battle the z-axis in HoT it's just as fast to progress through as PoF. The only thing, imho, currently holding back PoF is the lack of meta events. Anet needs to create rewarding replayable content on the PoF maps then it's golden.

[Zoltar MacRoth.7146]

@Vayne.8563 said:I'm off the opinion that difficulty wise, PoF is a stepping stone toward the difficulty of HOT and if it had come out first, the reaction to HoT would have been completely different (ignoring the story of course). It would have gotten people used to the mastery system as something they could figure out and then solving the puzzles to get to those mastery points in HoT would have been a much easier task, because people would have been used to the system.

But it didn't happen that way. And it couldn't happen that way. PoF's polished design is the result of the lessons they learned from HOT. They're not isolated events. One is a direct consequence of the other and if - in some alternate universe - they were reversed people would be saying the same things about PoF as they did about HOT, and your alternate universe self would be opining 'Oh, if only HOT had come first' and my alternate universe self would be telling you that if HOT came first in some alternate universe then people would be saying the same things about HOT as they are about PoF and your alternate universe self would be......

[MMAI.5892]

@Vayne.8563 said:I'm off the opinion that difficulty wise, PoF is a steppping stone toward the difficulty of HOT and if it had come out first, the reaction to HoT would have been completely different (ignoring the story of course). It would have gotten people used to the mastery system as something they could figure out and then solving the puzzles to get to those mastery points in HoT would have been a much easier task, because people would have been used to the system.

Some people would, others wouldn't. The real hurdle here is enjoyment. We can get used to a lot of things, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll enjoy doing them. I didn't enjoy exploration in HoT - at all. Until I got advanced gliding, I found it a dull grind. After I got gliding it was more relief that I might actually find workable paths to places without needing to check guides. (This was not solely due to 'platforming', but it was a part of it.) If Anet were to release a set of maps as complicated as HoT in the next living story or expansion, I'd probably put the game up. I'm not adverse to some challenge in exploration, but we all have different limits for that. It's the same way I used to be a dedicated game player that had to figure out every twist, turn, combination, and challenge a game could present and really enjoyed the experience. I don't have that high of a tolerance for it anymore because I went from 'YES I DID IT' to 'Well there's an hour of my life I'm never going to get back' when it comes to hitting a certain level of frustration with content.

Not everyone is going to feel that way about it and that's fine! But, like I said, for me another set of maps like HoT would likely be a deal breaker.

[Vayne.8563]

@Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I'm off the opinion that difficulty wise, PoF is a stepping stone toward the difficulty of HOT and if it had come out first, the reaction to HoT would have been completely different (ignoring the story of course). It would have gotten people used to the mastery system as something they could figure out and then solving the puzzles to get to those mastery points in HoT would have been a much easier task, because people would have been used to the system.

But it didn't happen that way. And it couldn't happen that way. PoF's polished design is the result of the lessons they learned from HOT. They're not isolated events. One is a direct consequence of the other and if - in some alternate universe - they were reversed people would be saying the same things about PoF as they did about HOT, and your alternate universe self would be opining 'Oh, if only HOT had come first' and my alternate universe self would be telling you that if HOT came first in some alternate universe then people would be saying the same things about HOT as they are about PoF and your alternate universe self would be......

Actually I don't agree with this at all. I don't believe at Anet learned lesssons from HOT and that's why we have PoF. I think HoT was a direct reaction to people claiming there was no difficulty content in the game, or not enough difficult content. Anet needed that content in the game for some people either way. In the way that PoF was a response to complaints about HOT, HoT was a response to complaints about core. That's just the way Anet does things, and has alwasy done things. Anet over compensates in an effort to react to criticism. Sometimes I think they listen too much to what people are saying, because people who are speaking most loudly aren't necessarily the largest portion of the game.

[Vayne.8563]

@MMAI.5892 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I'm off the opinion that difficulty wise, PoF is a steppping stone toward the difficulty of HOT and if it had come out first, the reaction to HoT would have been completely different (ignoring the story of course). It would have gotten people used to the mastery system as something they could figure out and then solving the puzzles to get to those mastery points in HoT would have been a much easier task, because people would have been used to the system.

Some people would, others wouldn't. The real hurdle here is enjoyment. We can get used to a lot of things, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll enjoy doing them. I didn't enjoy exploration in HoT - at all. Until I got advanced gliding, I found it a dull grind. After I got gliding it was more relief that I might actually find workable paths to places without needing to check guides. (This was not solely due to 'platforming', but it was a part of it.) If Anet were to release a set of maps as complicated as HoT in the next living story or expansion, I'd probably put the game up. I'm not adverse to some challenge in exploration, but we all have different limits for that. It's the same way I used to be a dedicated game player that

had

to figure out every twist, turn, combination, and challenge a game could present and really enjoyed the experience. I don't have that high of a tolerance for it anymore because I went from 'YES I DID IT' to 'Well there's an hour of my life I'm never going to get back' when it comes to hitting a certain level of frustration with content.

Not everyone is going to feel that way about it and that's fine! But, like I said, for me another set of maps like HoT would likely be a deal breaker.

But even puzzles and finding your way around can yield people more used to looking for things. There are plenty of places in PoF that have hard to find vistas or POIs. One you get used to that kind of navigating, the HOT maps would have become easier anyway.

However, I now don't enjoy boring 2 level maps and much prefer the HOT maps. I'm getting far less enjoyment completing PoF maps than HOT maps. Guess it just comes down to a matter of taste. Either way I've always enjoyed the platforming aspects.

[Ellisande.5218]

@Vayne.8563 said:There are a lot of people who have bitterly complained about how HOT had become a platformer and that the game was badly received because of it. I think it's easy to see that PoF was far better received than HoT was..but it also has far more platforming...actual platforming in fact.

In fact, almost all of the stuff people complained about in HOT exists in POF except for the timer meta events, which apparently some people like. I find it interesting that some people who complained about platforming seem to enjoy PoF even though it has far more platforming that HoT ever had.

I like both expansions, myself, for completely different reasons.

You are wrong.

HoT platforming was PART of the problem. The problems with HoT go much deeper. Making platforming be the ONLY way to get around the map and do anything was why having platforming was a problem. The map was nothing but narrow corridors with no logical means of getting around the map or getting to any particular destination. Unless you knew where something was you would have no have idea how to get to anything. The fact that the entire map was nothing but narrow corridors covered in annoying OP aggro mobs made the problem worse.

It's fine to have platforming on a map, but when platforming is the ONLY content being offered then anyone who doesn't like platforming or doesn't like this game's platforming will rightly point out that no content was made for them. The maps didn't have to be nothing but narrow corridors which randomly changed vertical directions.

Another problem was the fact that nearly all of the +10 HP spots required a group.

A third problem was story. The story was terrible. You spend several hours randomly running around like a headless chicken with no purpose or real destination. Your goal was killing Mordremoth but you don't really spend any time trying to find a way to kill Mordremoth. You just run around and then at the very end the writer says ok the dragon died.

The base game had the same problem with its story. Your main goal is killing Zhaitain, but nothing you do actually feels like it involves killing Zhaitain. Then at the final misison when you are supposed to kill Zhaitain you actually don't. You head into a random cave for no reason and then Logain pulls from his ass the airship that kills Zhaitain. All of the work you did for the Pact was rendered completely pointless. You never use Pact soldiers, you don't use a fleet of Pact airships, it is just Logain's last second asspull airship. You could have stayed at home and Logain's airship would have still killed Zhaitain. That's why these stories don't work. The writers never make you feel like all of your work is helping to accomplish your goal. It is the worst kind of railroading. Even worse is the fact that nothing you do outside the cutscenes matters to anything at all. All the content outside the cutscenes is killing respawns for no reason to accomplish nothing. All the content inside the cutscenes is killing the same mobs you killed outside the cutscenes also for no real reason or purpose.

A fourth problem is the inclusion of the Living World content. The living world content should be self contained. Those of us who didn't do the Living World content were excluded by the game assuming that we both played the Living World content and cared about it. So we never had any reason to know or care about any of the characters we encounter, no way of knowing what the hell is going on when the stupid egg randomly appeared or why it is important or supposed to do. This stupid egg steals an entire map's worth of story, is supposed to be the reason why you don't trust Caithe for holding it, but if you didn't do the Living World content then you don't know that Caithe wasn't the original holder of the egg. When I saw Caithe with the egg I was like, Caithe, why are you holding a stupid egg instead of helping me kill respawns? I didn't know I was supposed to be upset with Caithe for holding an egg I didn't know or care about. The last time I saw Caithe she was helping me kill Zhaitain so from my perspective she was still my trusted personal friend as I was a Sylvari. The characters I didn't trust were all of the other characters I didn't know as this was the first time I was seeing them.

Eir's death becomes a huge problem as Eir was a character we had seen before and had worked with. If you were a Norn then she was your special friend. So when they kill off Eir they were killing off a character you knew and maybe liked and replacing her with a boring character you didn't know or care about. Her death didn't mean anything as she died during a cutscene when the game had robbed you of your agency. You and I both know that if the game hadn't taken away your agency then you would have saved her. This is bad railroading and why deaths almost never work because they are forced and only happen when the player is robbed of their agency. It is especially bad railroading when this is used to replace one character the player knows and cares about with a character the player doesn't know or care about. Yes, Eir was not a great character, she was poorly written and poorly voice acted. But at least I KNEW her and interacted with her. Her replacement Norn is even more boring than she was.

Anet made the same mistake with Destiny's Edge. These are a bunch of characters that come out of nowhere, and the writer rubs them in the player's face by saying that they are going to have these characters constantly outshine the player via Mary Sue deus ex machina. They are going to always steal the player's limelight because DE are the writers author insertion characters who we are expected to believe are each equal to Superman and Batman combined even though Guild Wars is more of a limited world where even heroes are barely above the level of a foot soldier in terms of combat prowess. That's why you use an airship to kill Zhaitain instead of a Kamehameha. This is also why the lack of purpose to the player character's action in HoT is egregious. See characters are fairly weak, so running around expecting to find Mordemoth so you can beat him senseless with a sword is likely to fail. But that is the entire story, you running around trying to find Mordremoth so you can beat him with your sword even though this is doomed to fail. It is only the last minute ass pull with Trahearne and the dream that lets you beat Mordremoth. But when you started the final mission you didn't even know that you would be able to use Trahearne's connection to Mordremoth to enter the dream and beat Mordremoth, that possibility was introduced by Trahearne AFTER you find him for the last time. The point here is that the writers expect you to salivate and fangirl over these characters even though they failed to put in the work to make the character care about these characters.

PoF suffers this same problem. You run around without a plan to kill Balthazar and then the writer says you win after you run around enough. You don't win because you were smart, or clever or powerful. You win because the writer says you win even though you would have lost if the story had progressed naturally without a deus ex machina ass pull from the writer. But you wouldn't have lost because you failed, you would have lost because the writer never let you work on finding a way to win and then exercising that plan.

To sum this up, HoT suffers because the map is a convoluted mess that isn't fun to run around in because it is nothing but narrow corridors full of annoying aggro mobs that aren't constructed along any natural path of progression. These maps require an unnecessary amount of platforming and don't offer anything for people who dislike platforming. The mobs aren't fun to kill because killing them feels completely pointless as they spawn and respawn. The story is a mess and is based on characters and events that many players have probably never experienced and makes the player feel dumb as their character never works towards accomplishing their goal of killing Mordremoth. The expansion not only doesn't do much to address the core problems of the game, rather it introduces new ones in the form of even more grinding as content and maps that many players dislike. The expansion didn't introduce anything new to mix up the gameplay or a new type of activity.

What would have helped the map and story create some semblance of progress is phasing. Start the player off with nothing and in a map full of hostile npcs at every turn. So many the player is constantly being swarmed and killed if they try advancing even two inches. Then use phasing to let the player rebuild their army and take over the forest, constantly pushing back Mordremoth's forces and constantly pushing back the Mordremoth plants. That would let players feel like their character is actually working towards their goal and actually feel like they are accomplishing something more than running around for no reason accomplishing nothing. PoF desperately needed this too.

To answer the OPer, the fact that there is some platforming in PoF maps but those maps are well received DESPITE the little bit of platforming doesn't mean that the platforming wasn't a problem in HoT. HoT was ONLY platforming that you couldn't avoid even if you wanted to. PoF is just a tiny bit of platforming that you CAN AVOID IF YOU WANT. The PoF maps have much more in common with vanilla maps and much less in common with HoT maps. The devs listened to player complaints about the maps and corrected the problem with the map designs they had in HoT.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

I think a lot of people used the word platforming referring to the HoT maps not realizing there was a technical definition(I was one of those people at first). HoT has the feel of a platformer because the maps are really map puzzles or obstacle courses. HoT is much more difficult to traverse or find a path to an event than PoF. However, HoT does have the distinction of "platforming creep" in this game. In vanilla gw2 there were maybe 1 or 2 items that ever required jumping puzzles completion exclusively. After Hot, jumping puzzle requirements for collections has increased dramatically.

I do enjoy PoF more than HoT because the maps are more accessible. I would rather platforming was kept to a minimum in gw2.

[Vayne.8563]

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:I think a lot of people used the word platforming referring to the HoT maps not realizing there was a technical definition(I was one of those people at first). HoT has the feel of a platformer because the maps are really map puzzles or obstacle courses. HoT is much more difficult to traverse or find a path to an event than PoF. However, HoT does have the distinction of "platforming creep" in this game. In vanilla gw2 there were maybe 1 or 2 items that ever required jumping puzzles completion exclusively. After Hot, jumping puzzle requirements for collections has increased dramatically.

I do enjoy PoF more than HoT because the maps are more accessible. I would rather platforming was kept to a minimum in gw2.

Pretty much what I'm saying. Whatever problems HoT has, platforming itself isn't one of them, because there's relatively little of it. Where as the new expansion is chock full of platforming.

[Vayne.8563]

@Elisande

I'm not sure how you define platforming because I got through all four HoT maps with virtually no platforming, except for adventures. I didn't need to platform at all to get from one end of Verdant Brink to Another.

Not sure what you consider platforming but if it's standing on a jumping mushroom we'll just have to agree to disagree, because where I'm standing that's not platforming and there is far more platforming in PoF than there ever was in HoT. Not a little. A lot more by an order of magnitude.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@killermanjaro.5670 said:It has surprised me, the amount of people that complained about HoT because of its verticality, layered maps and platforming, yet they all seem to be praising PoF when it's actually got the same.

I think they are still in the Crystal Oasis which doesn't have vertical gameplay. Wait for them to reach Desolation and it will become the new Tangled Depths :dizzy:

No it won't. Desolation is far easier to navigate than Tangled Depths was first time round'. I used to HATE, Tangled Depths, mostly because the map is useless and does in no way support the amount of layers Tangled Depths has, and the second... I hate Chak.

It grew on me though, as I started learning the routes after completing the map a couple times.

Reason I don't like PoF much is because after HoT, it doesn't feel like a challenge. HoT was a big ramp up in PvE difficulty from Core, both in Navigation and Enemy tricks, something I personally enjoy. PoF feels like a downgrade in the navigational aspect, at least...

EDIT: As in it's become way easier to navigate and requires far less thought to make it through the terrain. I guess that could be an upgrade depending on what you enjoy.

[Torolan.5816]

I was one of the guys who argued about Super Mario Wars 2, and I still stand by my opinion.

The topmost layer of Verdant Brink is contentwise a creative fille for bancruptcy as it mostly consists of some floating rocks with hero challenges and the meta mobs. It is beautifully made, but I think it is a bash in the face of real levels to really call it a full layer. It is basically the top plattform of donkey kong where you shove Donkey from the top layer after you jumped over his last thrown barrel.When you are not good at 3d movement, you run around in the Tangled Depths like a headless chicken. Even after it is years out now, I still have no idea how to reach several Hero points without a guide and used up my wvw rewards to actually buy these. Let´s take a look at a classic ancient plattformer again, Frogger. Frogger was not as 2dish as Donkey Kong as it made you run around a tower, adding a semidimnsion if you want so. Add darkness and similar looking terrain to that and you will be stuck forever like I was.Auric Basin is Turrican all over again, with the big difference that you pretty much know where you have to go in Turrican and there were no glitches which chained you at several points and no portals sealing stuff away.

I have no idea if plattforming by itself was the problem, I actually liked playing Turrican for example. What I know for sure is that the actual execution of terrain is terrible in HoT, and I hate standing in close reach to a HP with no idea how to reach it. It´s very frustrating and surely not needed, just like a plasmacannon should have no place in a fantasy setting.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

When the weatherman tells you it's gonna be 38° today but with humidex it will FEEL like 47, nobody cares about actual temperature but the bottom line of "today's gonna be fucking HoT yo"

Pun intended.

Not sure if Euros use humidex. But you get my point.

Yes, and I say again YOU WERE RIGHT VAYNE, there IS more platforming in PoF. But it doesn't Feeeeeeeel like it because of the way it was presented.

As opposed to hot. Which had less platforming in actuality but felt like the shittiest level of insert generic PS1 platformer here.

[Vayne.8563]

@Torolan.5816 said:I was one of the guys who argued about Super Mario Wars 2, and I still stand by my opinion.

The topmost layer of Verdant Brink is contentwise a creative fille for bancruptcy as it mostly consists of some floating rocks with hero challenges and the meta mobs. It is beautifully made, but I think it is a bash in the face of real levels to really call it a full layer. It is basically the top plattform of donkey kong where you shove Donkey from the top layer after you jumped over his last thrown barrel.When you are not good at 3d movement, you run around in the Tangled Depths like a headless chicken. Even after it is years out now, I still have no idea how to reach several Hero points without a guide and used up my wvw rewards to actually buy these. Let´s take a look at a classic ancient plattformer again, Frogger. Frogger was not as 2dish as Donkey Kong as it made you run around a tower, adding a semidimnsion if you want so. Add darkness and similar looking terrain to that and you will be stuck forever like I was.Auric Basin is Turrican all over again, with the big difference that you pretty much know where you have to go in Turrican and there were no glitches which chained you at several points and no portals sealing stuff away.

I have no idea if plattforming by itself was the problem, I actually liked playing Turrican for example. What I know for sure is that the actual execution of terrain is terrible in HoT, and I hate standing in close reach to a HP with no idea how to reach it. It´s very frustrating and surely not needed, just like a plasmacannon should have no place in a fantasy setting.

What you're complaining about is the puzzle aspect. You can't navigate. There are far more linear platform games than ones where people have no idea where to go. Not all platform games are tombraider after all. You hardly have a problem figuring out where to go in Donkey Kong presumablly. Your problem is with puzzles, not platforming. The zones were presented so that people who like solving puzzles enjoyed them. You didn't, so you had to look up guides.

But let's call a spade a spade. A platform you can take a chopper up to is not exactly platforming. There are ways to get there without the platform, but the only time you need to be there is night when the bosses spawn. There's nothing up there during the day. And night when the bosses spawn you click on a ladder and you're there.

[Vayne.8563]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

When the weatherman tells you it's gonna be 38° today but with humidex it will FEEL like 47, nobody cares about actual temperature but the bottom line of "today's gonna be kitten HoT yo"

Pun intended.

Not sure if Euros use humidex. But you get my point.

Yes, and I say again YOU WERE RIGHT VAYNE, there IS more platforming in PoF. But it doesn't Feeeeeeeel like it because of the way it was presented.

As opposed to hot. Which had less platforming in actuality but felt like the shittiest level of insert generic PS1 platformer here.

HoT had virtually no platforming. Almost none. I didn't even need to platform to get most vistas. Certainly not as much as PoF, and yes, I've completed every zone in both expansions. PoF REQUIRES more platforming than HoT.

What you're feeling is only YOUR feeling. Not everyone felt it. Sure someone in this thread said the aestetics of the mushrooms reminded him of platforming, but I would suggest that's a pretty narrow view. Lots of things in games remind me of lots of other things but those attachments we hold in our heads are not the fault of the game, and we really sure think about why we're allowing outside attachments from other games to influence us.

Just look at how many people were down on mounts and suddenly that whole wave of negativity is gone, because mounts in Guild Wars 2 are different. Well jumping mushrooms are different from the skill based jumping mushrooms in Mario Bros. Whatever you think it feels like is your feeling. It's not a fact. The fact is we don't know how many people feel that way, but I strongly suspect that platforming is not a major problem and never has been. The problems people are complaining about mostly like too long to get mastery points is fair enough (even though I didn't personally find it long at all). But saying it's platforming when it's not because you believe it feels like it? I don't really know how you expect anyone to reply to that

Okay you feel that. But unless that feeling is widespread, I'm not sure the devs should concern themselves with it.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Vayne.8563

I'm sorry but I run a casual guild with about 400 people in it, and most of those people don't see HoT as a miserable failure.

Nor am I trying to justify HoT in this thread. I'm making a point which you're avoiding. This thread has one purpose. It's addressing the people who said that platforming has no place in this game. People who said that if I wanted to platform I'd buy a console. That's what this thread is addressing.

The real failure here is core which didn't teach people how to play the game .And every time Anet tried to add anything slightly harder to the game, people would complain, not necessarily because the content was too hard..but because the game does a poor job of teaching itself.

Section1: a guild of 400 players under your watch might be a poor example. I say that meaning it may be an echo chamber. So that's a vested interest. It's like Steve jobs saying oh well I have 400 people in my company who love Apple.

Section2: if that's your intention you are presenting it wrong. Because to the casual observer it reads like "PoF has more platform than HoT and you are wrong and dontvkniw what you want."

Section3: wash your mouth with soap

Core was absolutely magnificent before NPE and free accounts. If anything the changes turned a pretty flowing system into facebook-style presentation and reward structure.

And I use "rewards" loosely. CONGRATULATIONS YOU LEVELED UP, YOU HAVE UNLOCKED: BANK

LOLOLOLOL

[Vayne.8563]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563

I'm sorry but I run a casual guild with about 400 people in it, and most of those people don't see HoT as a miserable failure.

Nor am I trying to justify HoT in this thread. I'm making a point which you're avoiding. This thread has one purpose. It's addressing the people who said that platforming has no place in this game. People who said that if I wanted to platform I'd buy a console. That's what this thread is addressing.

The real failure here is core which didn't teach people how to play the game .And every time Anet tried to add anything slightly harder to the game, people would complain, not necessarily because the content was too hard..but because the game does a poor job of teaching itself.

Section1: a guild of 400 players under your watch might be a poor example. I say that meaning it may be an echo chamber. So that's a vested interest. It's like Steve jobs saying oh well I have 400 people in my company who love Apple.

Section2: if that's your intention you are presenting it wrong. Because to the casual observer it reads like "PoF has more platform than HoT and you are wrong and dontvkniw what you want."

Section3: wash your mouth with soap

Core was absolutely magnificent before NPE and free accounts. If anything the changes turned a pretty flowing system into facebook-style presentation and reward structure.

And I use "rewards" loosely. CONGRATULATIONS YOU LEVELED UP, YOU HAVE UNLOCKED: BANK

LOLOLOLOL

PoF has more platforming than HoT. That is to say if you look at individual points of interest and vistas and mastery points and hero points that require platforming, there are factually going to be more of them in POF than HoT . It's true that in HoT, some hero points in VB require unlocking nuhoch wallows to get without platforming, but they can in fact be gotten with zero platforming.

There is one mastery point in PoF that requires either the leveled up griffon or map breaking to get. I'm really not sure how you can compare the amount of platforming between the two games. I've been trying to complete zones, having every single mastery in PoF, jumping around on a rabbit like a mad person.

Most recently there's a vista in Vabbi that requires the jackal to get. Getting to it is probably harder than any single vista in HoT.

[Torolan.5816]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Torolan.5816 said:I was one of the guys who argued about Super Mario Wars 2, and I still stand by my opinion.

The topmost layer of Verdant Brink is contentwise a creative fille for bancruptcy as it mostly consists of some floating rocks with hero challenges and the meta mobs. It is beautifully made, but I think it is a bash in the face of real levels to really call it a full layer. It is basically the top plattform of donkey kong where you shove Donkey from the top layer after you jumped over his last thrown barrel.When you are not good at 3d movement, you run around in the Tangled Depths like a headless chicken. Even after it is years out now, I still have no idea how to reach several Hero points without a guide and used up my wvw rewards to actually buy these. Let´s take a look at a classic ancient plattformer again, Frogger. Frogger was not as 2dish as Donkey Kong as it made you run around a tower, adding a semidimnsion if you want so. Add darkness and similar looking terrain to that and you will be stuck forever like I was.Auric Basin is Turrican all over again, with the big difference that you pretty much know where you have to go in Turrican and there were no glitches which chained you at several points and no portals sealing stuff away.

I have no idea if plattforming by itself was the problem, I actually liked playing Turrican for example. What I know for sure is that the actual execution of terrain is terrible in HoT, and I hate standing in close reach to a HP with no idea how to reach it. It´s very frustrating and surely not needed, just like a plasmacannon should have no place in a fantasy setting.

What you're complaining about is the puzzle aspect. You can't navigate. There are far more linear platform games than ones where people have no idea where to go. Not all platform games are tombraider after all. You hardly have a problem figuring out where to go in Donkey Kong presumablly. Your problem is with puzzles, not platforming. The zones were presented so that people who like solving puzzles enjoyed them. You didn't, so you had to look up guides.

But let's call a spade a spade. A platform you can take a chopper up to is not exactly platforming. There are ways to get there without the platform, but the only time you need to be there is night when the bosses spawn. There's nothing up there during the day. And night when the bosses spawn you click on a ladder and you're there.

"There is nothing up there during the day".Does this not make you a little bit curious and angry? I know it angered me then when Anet treid to sell the map as big. It is basically the embodyment of the last plattform in a common plattformer. But maybe you are right, it is not that much the jumping that irks me, it is the random, seemingly unconnected and glitchy jumping/gliding that angers me.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

When the weatherman tells you it's gonna be 38° today but with humidex it will FEEL like 47, nobody cares about actual temperature but the bottom line of "today's gonna be kitten HoT yo"

Pun intended.

Not sure if Euros use humidex. But you get my point.

Yes, and I say again YOU WERE RIGHT VAYNE, there IS more platforming in PoF. But it doesn't Feeeeeeeel like it because of the way it was presented.

As opposed to hot. Which had less platforming in actuality but felt like the shittiest level of insert generic PS1 platformer here.

HoT had virtually no platforming. Almost none. I didn't even need to platform to get most vistas. Certainly not as much as PoF, and yes, I've completed every zone in both expansions. PoF REQUIRES more platforming than HoT.

What you're feeling is only YOUR feeling. Not everyone felt it. Sure someone in this thread said the aestetics of the mushrooms reminded him of platforming, but I would suggest that's a pretty narrow view. Lots of things in games remind me of lots of other things but those attachments we hold in our heads are not the fault of the game, and we really sure think about why we're allowing outside attachments from other games to influence us.

Just look at how many people were down on mounts and suddenly that whole wave of negativity is gone, because mounts in Guild Wars 2 are different. Well jumping mushrooms are different from the skill based jumping mushrooms in Mario Bros. Whatever you think it feels like is your feeling. It's not a fact. The fact is we don't know how many people feel that way, but I strongly suspect that platforming is not a major problem and never has been. The problems people are complaining about mostly like too long to get mastery points is fair enough (even though I didn't personally find it long at all). But saying it's platforming when it's not because you believe it feels like it? I don't really know how you expect anyone to reply to that

Okay you feel that. But unless that feeling is widespread, I'm not sure the devs should concern themselves with it.

You are making huge assumption now. First off I have never personally said I thought HoT was platform. Fact is I didn't even finish 30% of HoT because story is potato for me and no loot of interest whatsoever. But from what others are saying in-game and in the forums for 2 years I UNDERSTAND them and know what they are saying because yes in fact HoT does feeeeel platformy topically. I am supporting the thought of those players. And like someone pointed out already; you are getting hung up on a word. HoT plates less like gw2 and more like a console mario game. Again ignoring me when I say yes you WERE RIGHT ABOUT THE LEVEL OF PLATFORMING in PoF compared to hot but (and I repeat again...) in Pof it did not feel like it because it was better designed! Why do you keep ignoring This?!

As to the concept in general...Come on man. You and I have been here since day 1. You know you're being a bit disingenuous now. You were here when people went raging over Drytop when introduced, holiday meta achievement gated behind jps. How many threads over why xyz jps are required for whatever reason. Last Wintersday, the 21 page thread over it...

You KNOW that jumping/platforming/we is a sore spot for many people. You read the same forums I do.

Not to mention the crippled/disabled players who literally can't do it.

I like jumping puzzles.

HoT maps were donkey to me. I have to updraft NW to reach glide N to reach updraft E to end up SE? This is donkeys. It's artificially inflating play time via wasteful "challenge" guesswork.

I'd rather stick to walking on a trail like a normal adventurer and get stomped by champs.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Vayne.8563 said:I'm off the opinion that difficulty wise, PoF is a steppping stone toward the difficulty of HOT and if it had come out first, the reaction to HoT would have been completely different (ignoring the story of course). It would have gotten people used to the mastery system as something they could figure out and then solving the puzzles to get to those mastery points in HoT would have been a much easier task, because people would have been used to the system.

This I agree with.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I'm off the opinion that difficulty wise, PoF is a stepping stone toward the difficulty of HOT and if it had come out first, the reaction to HoT would have been completely different (ignoring the story of course). It would have gotten people used to the mastery system as something they could figure out and then solving the puzzles to get to those mastery points in HoT would have been a much easier task, because people would have been used to the system.

But it didn't happen that way. And it couldn't happen that way. PoF's polished design is the result of the lessons they learned from HOT. They're not isolated events. One is a direct consequence of the other and if - in some alternate universe - they were reversed people would be saying the same things about PoF as they did about HOT, and your alternate universe self would be opining 'Oh, if only HOT had come first' and my alternate universe self would be telling you that if HOT came first in some alternate universe then people would be saying the same things about HOT as they are about PoF and your alternate universe self would be......

Actually I don't agree with this at all. I don't believe at Anet learned lesssons from HOT and that's why we have PoF. I think HoT was a direct reaction to people claiming there was no difficulty content in the game, or not enough difficult content. Anet needed that content in the game for some people either way. In the way that PoF was a response to complaints about HOT, HoT was a response to complaints about core. That's just the way Anet does things, and has alwasy done things. Anet over compensates in an effort to react to criticism. Sometimes I think they listen too much to what people are saying, because people who are speaking most loudly aren't necessarily the largest portion of the game.

HoT was nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction from Anet caving to all the bullshit demands of the forum.

But here's the thing. Now all the people that complained about core and now boo hoooing over how they miss lws1. After they specifically bashed And over and over for "trickle" and some weeks of "content drought" now these same entitled silly geese are literally pining for the days they themselves out an end to. EXPLAIN.

Like another forum goer said "Anet will give you what you want, but now how you like it"

[Vayne.8563]

@Torolan.5816 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Torolan.5816 said:I was one of the guys who argued about Super Mario Wars 2, and I still stand by my opinion.

The topmost layer of Verdant Brink is contentwise a creative fille for bancruptcy as it mostly consists of some floating rocks with hero challenges and the meta mobs. It is beautifully made, but I think it is a bash in the face of real levels to really call it a full layer. It is basically the top plattform of donkey kong where you shove Donkey from the top layer after you jumped over his last thrown barrel.When you are not good at 3d movement, you run around in the Tangled Depths like a headless chicken. Even after it is years out now, I still have no idea how to reach several Hero points without a guide and used up my wvw rewards to actually buy these. Let´s take a look at a classic ancient plattformer again, Frogger. Frogger was not as 2dish as Donkey Kong as it made you run around a tower, adding a semidimnsion if you want so. Add darkness and similar looking terrain to that and you will be stuck forever like I was.Auric Basin is Turrican all over again, with the big difference that you pretty much know where you have to go in Turrican and there were no glitches which chained you at several points and no portals sealing stuff away.

I have no idea if plattforming by itself was the problem, I actually liked playing Turrican for example. What I know for sure is that the actual execution of terrain is terrible in HoT, and I hate standing in close reach to a HP with no idea how to reach it. It´s very frustrating and surely not needed, just like a plasmacannon should have no place in a fantasy setting.

What you're complaining about is the puzzle aspect. You can't navigate. There are far more linear platform games than ones where people have no idea where to go. Not all platform games are tombraider after all. You hardly have a problem figuring out where to go in Donkey Kong presumablly. Your problem is with puzzles, not platforming. The zones were presented so that people who like solving puzzles enjoyed them. You didn't, so you had to look up guides.

But let's call a spade a spade. A platform you can take a chopper up to is not exactly platforming. There are ways to get there without the platform, but the only time you need to be there is night when the bosses spawn. There's nothing up there during the day. And night when the bosses spawn you click on a ladder and you're there.

"There is nothing up there during the day".Does this not make you a little bit curious and angry? I know it angered me then when Anet treid to sell the map as big. It is basically the embodyment of the last plattform in a common plattformer. But maybe you are right, it is not that much the jumping that irks me, it is the random, seemingly unconnected and glitchy jumping/gliding that angers me.

Didn't anger me at all. There's nothing in most of the game except for random mobs. In fact, the upper level of VB is probably one of the beautiful areas in the game and perfect to just hang out in during the day.

[Vayne.8563]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

When the weatherman tells you it's gonna be 38° today but with humidex it will FEEL like 47, nobody cares about actual temperature but the bottom line of "today's gonna be kitten HoT yo"

Pun intended.

Not sure if Euros use humidex. But you get my point.

Yes, and I say again YOU WERE RIGHT VAYNE, there IS more platforming in PoF. But it doesn't Feeeeeeeel like it because of the way it was presented.

As opposed to hot. Which had less platforming in actuality but felt like the shittiest level of insert generic PS1 platformer here.

HoT had virtually no platforming. Almost none. I didn't even need to platform to get most vistas. Certainly not as much as PoF, and yes, I've completed every zone in both expansions. PoF REQUIRES more platforming than HoT.

What you're feeling is only YOUR feeling. Not everyone felt it. Sure someone in this thread said the aestetics of the mushrooms reminded him of platforming, but I would suggest that's a pretty narrow view. Lots of things in games remind me of lots of other things but those attachments we hold in our heads are not the fault of the game, and we really sure think about why we're allowing outside attachments from other games to influence us.

Just look at how many people were down on mounts and suddenly that whole wave of negativity is gone, because mounts in Guild Wars 2 are different. Well jumping mushrooms are different from the skill based jumping mushrooms in Mario Bros. Whatever you think it feels like is your feeling. It's not a fact. The fact is we don't know how many people feel that way, but I strongly suspect that platforming is not a major problem and never has been. The problems people are complaining about mostly like too long to get mastery points is fair enough (even though I didn't personally find it long at all). But saying it's platforming when it's not because you believe it feels like it? I don't really know how you expect anyone to reply to that

Okay you feel that. But unless that feeling is widespread, I'm not sure the devs should concern themselves with it.

You are making huge assumption now. First off I have never personally said I thought HoT was platform. Fact is I didn't even finish 30% of HoT because story is potato for me and no loot of interest whatsoever. But from what others are saying in-game and in the forums for 2 years I UNDERSTAND them and know what they are saying because yes in fact HoT does feeeeel platformy topically. I am supporting the thought of those players. And like someone pointed out already; you are getting hung up on a word. HoT plates less like gw2 and more like a console mario game. Again ignoring me when I say yes you WERE RIGHT ABOUT THE LEVEL OF PLATFORMING in PoF compared to hot but (and I repeat again...) in Pof it did not feel like it because it was better designed! Why do you keep ignoring This?!

As to the concept in general...Come on man. You and I have been here since day 1. You know you're being a bit disingenuous now. You were here when people went raging over Drytop when introduced, holiday meta achievement gated behind jps. How many threads over why xyz jps are required for whatever reason. Last Wintersday, the 21 page thread over it...

You KNOW that jumping/platforming/we is a sore spot for many people. You read the same forums I do.

Not to mention the crippled/disabled players who literally can't do it.

I like jumping puzzles.

HoT maps were donkey to me. I have to updraft NW to reach glide N to reach updraft E to end up SE? This is donkeys. It's artificially inflating play time via wasteful "challenge" guesswork.

I'd rather stick to walking on a trail like a normal adventurer and get stomped by champs.

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

When the weatherman tells you it's gonna be 38° today but with humidex it will FEEL like 47, nobody cares about actual temperature but the bottom line of "today's gonna be kitten HoT yo"

Pun intended.

Not sure if Euros use humidex. But you get my point.

Yes, and I say again YOU WERE RIGHT VAYNE, there IS more platforming in PoF. But it doesn't Feeeeeeeel like it because of the way it was presented.

As opposed to hot. Which had less platforming in actuality but felt like the shittiest level of insert generic PS1 platformer here.

HoT had virtually no platforming. Almost none. I didn't even need to platform to get most vistas. Certainly not as much as PoF, and yes, I've completed every zone in both expansions. PoF REQUIRES more platforming than HoT.

What you're feeling is only YOUR feeling. Not everyone felt it. Sure someone in this thread said the aestetics of the mushrooms reminded him of platforming, but I would suggest that's a pretty narrow view. Lots of things in games remind me of lots of other things but those attachments we hold in our heads are not the fault of the game, and we really sure think about why we're allowing outside attachments from other games to influence us.

Just look at how many people were down on mounts and suddenly that whole wave of negativity is gone, because mounts in Guild Wars 2 are different. Well jumping mushrooms are different from the skill based jumping mushrooms in Mario Bros. Whatever you think it feels like is your feeling. It's not a fact. The fact is we don't know how many people feel that way, but I strongly suspect that platforming is not a major problem and never has been. The problems people are complaining about mostly like too long to get mastery points is fair enough (even though I didn't personally find it long at all). But saying it's platforming when it's not because you believe it feels like it? I don't really know how you expect anyone to reply to that

Okay you feel that. But unless that feeling is widespread, I'm not sure the devs should concern themselves with it.

You are making huge assumption now. First off I have never personally said I thought HoT was platform. Fact is I didn't even finish 30% of HoT because story is potato for me and no loot of interest whatsoever. But from what others are saying in-game and in the forums for 2 years I UNDERSTAND them and know what they are saying because yes in fact HoT does feeeeel platformy topically. I am supporting the thought of those players. And like someone pointed out already; you are getting hung up on a word. HoT plates less like gw2 and more like a console mario game. Again ignoring me when I say yes you WERE RIGHT ABOUT THE LEVEL OF PLATFORMING in PoF compared to hot but (and I repeat again...) in Pof it did not feel like it because it was better designed! Why do you keep ignoring This?!

As to the concept in general...Come on man. You and I have been here since day 1. You know you're being a bit disingenuous now. You were here when people went raging over Drytop when introduced, holiday meta achievement gated behind jps. How many threads over why xyz jps are required for whatever reason. Last Wintersday, the 21 page thread over it...

You KNOW that jumping/platforming/we is a sore spot for many people. You read the same forums I do.

Not to mention the crippled/disabled players who literally can't do it.

I like jumping puzzles.

HoT maps were donkey to me. I have to updraft NW to reach glide N to reach updraft E to end up SE? This is donkeys. It's artificially inflating play time via wasteful "challenge" guesswork.

I'd rather stick to walking on a trail like a normal adventurer and get stomped by champs.

HoT doesn't PLAY like mario brothers and anyone who says so has likely either never played Mario Brothers or never played HoT. PoF plays more like Mario Bros than HoT ever did, down to running around collecting coins. It doesn't play like Mario Brothers. It never have. People are saying so who don't like platformers and tend not to play them. They're hardly the experts on it, because if they were, they wouldn't be comparing the too.

If you want to see something that plays like Mario Brothers, stand around the Casino in the Desert Oasis map and watch everyone running after coins and jumping around like. well, Mario. That's what plays like Mario in this game.