So It Doesn't Look Like Platforming was the Issue with HoT

[Vayne.8563]

@MMAI.5892 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:It wouldn't be important if it weren't miscommunicating it to people who haven't played it. That's my take on it and it will ALWAYS be my take on it. Presumably you saw the posts by people who didn't buy hot because of stuff said loudly on the forums which turned out not be to true for them. Saying it's a platformer gives the wrong impression to people who actually play platformers.

It's like someone who's really bad at shooting, plays guild wars 2, can't kill stuff and starts calling it a shooter loudly everywhere. It's not a shooter and calling it so just gives other people reading the wrong impression.

...which turned out not be to true for them

- But does that make it any less true for the people who made the initial statement? For someone who is well versed and excels in platform style play, I doubt much beyond jumping puzzles would qualify as a 'true platforming game' for people who vehemently hate platforming, their take will be different. Honestly, taking any one set of opinions about a game from forums and basing a decision to play or not on them is all in the eye of the beholder. There will be no such thing as the perfect review that accurately encompasses the entirety of a game using only objective views of terminology that are universally agreed upon. It just doesn't exist. Secondly, just because there may be more platforming in PoF (I honestly don't know because I don't really care to do a complete, side by side comparison) doesn't necessarily mean that the less platforming in HoT wasn't harder or more frustrating for people. It was for me and I now looking forward to blazing through TD on my mounts since it's the only map I've yet to complete in HoT.

My pardon if I've misunderstood some of your points and please feel free to correct. That said, there are comments where you seem to be 'moving the goal posts'. For example, in one of your comments, you said something to effect of having a mesmer friend or using an HP train with mesmers will allow most if not all platforming for HPs (and other places) in HoT to be skipped. The implication seeming to be that because they can be skipped in this fashion, the platforming is either no longer platforming or incidental. Okay, but the same is true for PoF. I've run around the maps except for Vabbi at this point quite a bit and can reach most everything on foot. It might be a lot harder and/or longer in some areas due to area effects like sulfur or the branded area effect, but it's not impossible. I could also pay for a mesmer portal or use TP to friends (seen a lot of those advertised as well) but that doesn't negate the utility and platforming aspects anymore than taking a mesmer portal to the end of the JP makes the JP no longer platforming. I've also learned what class skills I can use (namely GS3, and Wings of Resolve) to 'skip' over certain platforming sections. I don't think this negates the obvious other mechanics just because I've found a less intensive way of doing it.

Also, I feel that HoTs platforming and its difficulty gates a lot more of HoTs content than in PoF. A lot of mastery points are directly tied to adventures and a lot of those are definitely platforming games. Someone already mentioned the HoT mastery insight that lies at the top of a jumping puzzle in VB. Many collection achievements rely on those things as well and if iirc (and I might not, admittedly) some of the events required it as well. There's also that bit of story that is, I believe, not only platforming, but timed platforming. So far in my PoF experience, there is a lot less of that kind of gating and what there is, thus far, has been easier to accomplish than HoT. And therein the difference probably lies. I'll gladly do a thousand bunny jumps across the desert that take me 1 or 2 tries to do versus hours of falling, dying, bafflingly 'slippery' ledges, while trying to figure out one convoluted path to get to one POI or HP.

Is it possible that people are over-inflating the importance and difficulty of HoT platforming because it blends into other aspects of HoT (difficulty in navigating, mob density, etc) that frustrated them as well and platforming was the proverbial straw? Sure. But I don't think that can be completely hand waved away either as those things contributed to the difficulty of those maps.

I'm not moving the goal posts, you're simply taking a piece of what I said out of context. My contention is there is more platforming in PoF than in HoT. Someone commented on masteries and commented about how leyline gliding was a very big slog, which I don't disagree with. I pointed out in response to that comment that there are only 2 hero points in hot that require leyline gliding. No other map completion does. For example the leyline at Burnisher Quarry in Auric Basin can be easily reached by nuhoch wallow instead of leyline gliding. There are 40 different hero points in HoT and 2 of them, a tiny tiny percentage, require leyline gliding to reach. Hero point trains bypass that requirement most of the time by portaling, so to get those two hero points, that tiny percentage, you'll have to accept a mesmer's health if you haven't gotten leyline gliding.. That doesn't make HoT have more platforming, which is what we were discussing in the first place.

The adventure issue, I've always been against and has nothing at all to do with the conversation about jumping mushrooms, which is one of the complaints people seem to have for some reason I have yet to fathom. I've spoken out in many threads to say that I don't believe mastery points should have ever been included in adventures.

You seem to be laboring under the assumption that this is a defense of HOT thread but it's not. It's me being nonplussed about how much actual platforming exists in PoF (there's a ton of it), without the people who complained about it in HOT seeming to notice. That was really the main reason I posted.

[MMAI.5892]

@Vayne.8563 said:I'm not moving the goal posts, you're simply taking a piece of what I said out of context. My contention is there is more platforming in PoF than in HoT. Someone commented on masteries and commented about how leyline gliding was a very big slog, which I don't disagree with. I pointed out in response to that comment that there are only 2 hero points in hot that require leyline gliding. No other map completion does. For example the leyline at Burnisher Quarry in Auric Basin can be easily reached by nuhoch wallow instead of leyline gliding. There are 40 different hero points in HoT and 2 of them, a tiny tiny percentage, require leyline gliding to reach. Hero point trains bypass that requirement most of the time by portaling, so to get those two hero points, that tiny percentage, you'll have to accept a mesmer's health if you haven't gotten leyline gliding.. That doesn't make HoT have more platforming, which is what we were discussing in the first place.

are only 2 hero points in hot that require leyline gliding But how does this negate what I said which was that being able to use a mesmer to bypass the mechanic does not erase the mechanic or its use?

The adventure issue, I've always been against and has nothing at all to do with the conversation about jumping mushrooms, which is one of the complaints people seem to have for some reason I have yet to fathom. I've spoken out in many threads to say that I don't believe mastery points should have ever been included in adventures.

If the issue is ultimately about platforming in HoT and how ppl define platforming, how can these be divorced? You don't consider the bouncing mushrooms to be a platforming mechanic. Other people disagree. Considering that you can misjump on one of those mushrooms and thus not activate the effect would lend that they are more a platforming mechanic than not (or they're buggy, that is a possibility). Yes they have a specific landing spot, but I've needed to negate that via gliding to land where I actually want to land instead. I can't do that with a portal. Are they a particularly hard piece of platforming? No, but I don't think it's reasonable to take every little conceivable piece of possible or not platforming mechanics and evaluate them in a vacuum either.

You seem to be laboring under the assumption that this is a defense of HOT thread but it's not. It's me being nonplussed about how much actual platforming exists in PoF (there's a ton of it), without the people who complained about it in HOT seeming to notice. That was really the main reason I posted.

You'd be incorrect. I've already stated that there might be more platforming in PoF than in HoT, but that it's the difficulty of HoTs platforming combined with other map issues that make HoTs harder and thus less desirable in the eyes of some. I've also stated why I think that analyzing the specifics of platforming in both Expacs while disregarding other factors probably isn't feasible. Because these factors plus the easier platforming in PoF is probably why they haven't noticed. (Assuming they haven't without know who 'they' are.)

Do I, personally, consider HoT to be Mario-esque? No. Do I think that the difficulty and prevalence of platforming in HoT is harder? Yes Is it more/less in total content? Don't know and don't particularly care. But it does seem we are that point in the discussion where the angle at which we personally look at the subject is at an impasse. No harm no foul.

[MMAI.5892]

@Djinn.9245 said:Nice post. I agree with most of what you are saying even while at the same time I stand by my complaints about Anet introducing more and more platforming mechanics to the game from Dry Top through HoT.

Thank you! And I don't disagree. While HoT maps are definitely my least favorite overall, Dry Top isn't far off. I dislike the movement crystals because they seem to be buggy and the paths to get to some places are more 'puzzle like' than I really care to deal with. Add in glitchy platformy mechanics and I don't care much for it. On the one hand, I understand why Anet does it. Their stance of leveling and gear means that somehow they have to expand and reinvigorate content and as long as I can reasonably to certain thing like mastery progression and map completion, I'm not going to get to annoyed by it. But that is completely my personal limits and tolerance and understand that others may feel more strongly one way or another about it.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

There's no "platforming" in PoF and there was none in HoT. There's a lot of jumping, climbing and gliding, which is fine. MMOs have always had some of that. We were climbing up things and jumping across gaps in EverQuest in 1999, as anyone who did the rooftop scramble across Felwithe will confirm. That has no connection to "platforming" as understood in the context of a type or genre of video game.

GW2 has actual platforming in some (by no means all) of the jumping puzzles, particularly the instanced ones for the holiday events, but that's about it.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:HoT was nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction from Anet caving to all the kitten demands of the forum.

And PoF is also a reaction to the kitten demands of the forum vocal minority

I was against mounts, but don't tell me those guys were a total minority. Truth be told even just among forum people we don't know the numbers.

You are still right though.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

What you classify as platforming isnt the same what everyone else does.

So if you want to be right in your own view of the word platforming then thats going to be a very one sided and pointless discussion. (And has been so far) Stating that it wasnt an issue only stresses the fact you dont care to understand players who according to you use the word wrong.

Its an exercise in pointlessness. Good job.

It may be pointless to you, but clarifying language is not pointless to me, because without clarifying terms, there is no communications and we might as well close down every forum in existence. I'm not the one making up definitions here. I've played literally dozens of platforming games, if not hundreds, and every single one of them required platforming skill. Merely having platforms doesn't make a game a platformer.

SAYS THE GUY GOING SO HARD OUT OF HIS WAY TO AVOID ANSWERING PERFECTLY VALID POINTS BY SEVEN DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Lol yeah ok "communication"

[Substance E.4852]

@Vayne.8563 said:My source is that I've played platform games my whole life., So tell me which platform games can you name that required no platforming skill?

If you're just going to completely ignore what I argued and then repeat your subjective opinion that an immeasurable "skill required" factor is the decider here then there's nothing to argue.

By all means, don't let well reasoned arguments get in the way of your personal, "hahaw, guess you people sure do look silly now, huh?" narrative.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

HoT is much more punishing for movement skill mistakes than PoF. HoT requires much more player movement skill than PoF. Most HoT maps are puzzles while Pof maps have little

While I agree HoT is not technically a platformer(although it introduced many things that required jp completion.... collections, etc.), I don't think it is as big a disservice as you do for people to label it one. Many people revile movement skill games and HoT is much more of a movement skill game than PoF.

[Vayne.8563]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

What you classify as platforming isnt the same what everyone else does.

So if you want to be right in your own view of the word platforming then thats going to be a very one sided and pointless discussion. (And has been so far) Stating that it wasnt an issue only stresses the fact you dont care to understand players who according to you use the word wrong.

Its an exercise in pointlessness. Good job.

It may be pointless to you, but clarifying language is not pointless to me, because without clarifying terms, there is no communications and we might as well close down every forum in existence. I'm not the one making up definitions here. I've played literally dozens of platforming games, if not hundreds, and every single one of them required platforming skill. Merely having platforms doesn't make a game a platformer.

SAYS THE GUY GOING SO HARD OUT OF HIS WAY TO AVOID ANSWERING PERFECTLY VALID POINTS BY SEVEN DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Lol yeah ok "communication"

You seem to think that seven different people represent a significant subsection of the forums However a percentage of those 7 people have a history with me, and I'm not convinced that some of them wouldn't argue if I said the sky was blue, so I'm not sure the number of people is as high as you think If we polled the public and asked if HOT like Mario Brothers, pretty sure the percentage of people who said yes would be very very small.

I used to work as a profession editor and there were times when a dozen people all had the same view that turned out to be wrong as soon as it was looked up in the Chicago Style Manual, which we used as a baseline. You can have a room full of people with one guy right and seven guys wrong, except there are also people in this thread who agree with me. The problem is, people dislike HoT so much they're willing to use hyperbole to say negative stuff at a much greater frequency and degree than is warranted. They make HoT sound like the evil empire.

There are jumping mushrooms in Mario and there are jumping mushrooms in HoT. However, in Mario, you have to controll your jumps and in HoT you don't. Seems different to me. Nothing else about Mario and HoT is the same either, including jumping on your foes to incapacitate them. As I've already stated jumping to pick up coins in PoF is directly like mario, including 3 vertical coins you have to do a high jump to get all of. That's practicallly staight from Mario.

But yeah seven guys isn't some kind of vast majority. What you have is a handful of guys who love to argue with me and I'm okay with that. It doesn't, however, make their arguments any stronger.

[Vayne.8563]

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:My source is that I've played platform games my whole life., So tell me which platform games can you name that required no platforming skill?

If you're just going to completely ignore what I argued and then repeat your subjective opinion that an immeasurable "skill required" factor is the decider here then there's nothing to argue.

By all means, don't let well reasoned arguments get in the way of your personal, "hahaw, guess you people sure do look silly now, huh?" narrative.

I already answered the skill argument. I'll answer it again here.

Let's say that someone comes to Guild Wars who's really bad at shooting. He can't kill stuff. Doesn't know how to aim. Can't tab target. He could come to the forums and post that Guild Wars 2 is nothing but a shooter. I'ts just like asteroids. Most people wouldn't agree and they would find the statement ludicrous. His skill has nothing to do with the fact that this game isn't like asteroids. That's the point. Nor is it like Mario Brothers.

Just the fact that if you enter VB and go left, you can walk across the entire length of VB to get to the next zone without even jumping once, or gliding, or taking an updraft or taking a jumping mushroom would make it significantly different from Mario brothers. That's not to say they don't both have jumping. But lots of games have jumping and gliding that aren't like Mario. People are really complaining about the puzzle aspect, not the platforming aspect, and that's fine I can agree there are a lot of geographical puzzles in HoT. People can say that HOT is punishing if you miss jumps and that's fine, but that doesn't make it a platformer. It means people have to learn to think and solve puzzles. That's all it means.

[Vayne.8563]

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:HoT is much more punishing for movement skill mistakes than PoF. HoT requires much more player movement skill than PoF. Most HoT maps are puzzles while Pof maps have little

While I agree HoT is not technically a platformer(although it introduced many things that required jp completion.... collections, etc.), I don't think it is as big a disservice as you do for people to label it one. Many people revile movement skill games and HoT is much more of a movement skill game than PoF.

PoF requires more player movement skill than HoT. It's not as punishing when you fail, but that doesn't mean it doesn't require more.

[Djinn.9245]

I don't recall any significant number of people stating that HoT "is a platformer". I personally stated that I didn't like the platforming mechanics being added to GW2 and I recall most people making similar statements.

[Djinn.9245]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:HoT is much more punishing for movement skill mistakes than PoF. HoT requires much more player movement skill than PoF. Most HoT maps are puzzles while Pof maps have little

While I agree HoT is not technically a platformer(although it introduced many things that required jp completion.... collections, etc.), I don't think it is as big a disservice as you do for people to label it one. Many people revile movement skill games and HoT is much more of a movement skill game than PoF.

PoF requires more player movement skill than HoT.

Please show me the empirical evidence for this statement, because I believe it is incorrect.

[Vayne.8563]

@Djinn.9245 said:I don't recall any significant number of people stating that HoT "is a platformer". I personally stated that I didn't like the platforming mechanics being added to GW2 and I recall most people making similar statements.

Well if platforming itself then isn't an issue with HOT, there's no real reason to post on the thread to argue, is there?

[Djinn.9245]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Djinn.9245 said:I don't recall any significant number of people stating that HoT "is a platformer". I personally stated that I didn't like the platforming mechanics being added to GW2 and I recall most people making similar statements.

Well if platforming itself then isn't an issue with HOT, there's no real reason to post on the thread to argue, is there?

Where did I say platforming wasn't an issue with HoT? I was distinguishing between claiming that "HoT is a platformer" and "HoT has platforming mechanics", which are very different claims.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

I disagree Vayne. HoT takes a lot more player movement skill than PoF. I am not talking about game mechanics. I am talking about the skill in moving your character around a map. HoT is much more movement skill intensive than PoF.

[Zoltar MacRoth.7146]

Okay, let's say you're right, Vayne: PoF has more platforming than HOT.

So what?

[Kichwas.7152]

I think the first 4 people who replied to this thread basically summed up the ENTIRE LIST of problems with HoT in those 4 points.

Whatever complaints there were about platforming - where largely due to trying to platform when you couldn't see where you were or where you were going, there was a champion mob on the platform with you, you discovered 98% of the way through - 3 hours in - that you lacked the mastery for the final part, and once you came back with that mastery 4 months later you missed the leap by a millimeter and got sent back to, not just the beginning, but the start of the whole zone because a meta event had locked out all nearby waypoints...

Platforming itself... I'm not a fan. But I can deal.

But when it's platforming on steroids running in the streets chewing people's faces off... yeah... that was just too much of everything all combined.

I almost feel like the primary benefit of the PoF mounts is that we can now go back to HoT content and skip a lot of the platforms...

I stopped playing 2 or so years back because I hit "tangled OMGWTF" and just felt I was getting nowhere... now I'm actually playing through the HoT zones more than the PoF ones. They're finally playable.

[Vayne.8563]

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:I disagree Vayne. HoT takes a lot more player movement skill than PoF. I am not talking about game mechanics. I am talking about the skill in moving your character around a map. HoT is much more movement skill intensive than PoF.

Not even close. It takes more combat skill, maybe, but not more skill. I've finished every map in POF and I've finished every map in HoT. HoT requires patience to level the masteries you need. I takes more skill in getting around the map or learning how to do so. When you know how to do HoT the amount of skill needed to reach stuff is minimal. You're probably doing a lot of stuff the hard way would be my guess.

For example most of the POIs in VB only require you to take a chopper at night and maybe a jumping mushroom, or a single updraft However, most of the updrafts you need are very very easy to get. You need the masteries though. The difficulty in HoT is trying to do stuff without leveling masteries. If you feel I must complete this zone beffore I move into the next zone, then you're likely going to run into trouble. The game isn't making you do that though.

[Vayne.8563]

@Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:Okay, let's say you're right, Vayne: PoF has more platforming than HOT.

So what?

It's an observation. It might mean nothing to you which is fine. But it takes away some of the whole platforming arguments. A couple of posts above this Djinn said he's against all these introduced platforming mechanics in Guild Wars 2. Well there's quite a few platforming mechanics introduced in POF that have been very well accepted by the bulk of the community.

I don't think platform mechanics are an issue in and of themselves and I do think that's worth noting. Sometimes we hold conversations because the topics interest us. It interests me that many of the people who were against platforming mechanics in HoT seem to have no real trouble with mounts. Not all, but some at least. Can't I make a post about something I find interesting?

[Substance E.4852]

@Vayne.8563 said:PoF requires more player movement skill than HoT. It's not as punishing when you fail, but that doesn't mean it doesn't require more.

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:My source is that I've played platform games my whole life., So tell me which platform games can you name that required no platforming skill?

If you're just going to completely ignore what I argued and then repeat your subjective opinion that an immeasurable "skill required" factor is the decider here then there's nothing to argue.

By all means, don't let well reasoned arguments get in the way of your personal, "hahaw, guess you people sure do look silly now, huh?" narrative.

I already answered the skill argument. I'll answer it again here.

Let's say that someone comes to Guild Wars who's really bad at shooting. He can't kill stuff. Doesn't know how to aim. Can't tab target. He could come to the forums and post that Guild Wars 2 is nothing but a shooter. I'ts just like asteroids. Most people wouldn't agree and they would find the statement ludicrous. His skill has nothing to do with the fact that this game isn't like asteroids. That's the point. Nor is it like Mario Brothers.

Just the fact that if you enter VB and go left, you can walk across the entire length of VB to get to the next zone without even jumping once, or gliding, or taking an updraft or taking a jumping mushroom would make it significantly different from Mario brothers. That's not to say they don't both have jumping. But lots of games have jumping and gliding that aren't like Mario. People are really complaining about the puzzle aspect, not the platforming aspect, and that's fine I can agree there are a lot of geographical puzzles in HoT. People can say that HOT is punishing if you miss jumps and that's fine, but that doesn't make it a platformer. It means people have to learn to think and solve puzzles. That's all it means.

Okay,

Part A is just irrelevant word salad.

As for part B, all platformers are puzzles. Literally all games are puzzles to at least some degree (hence much argumentation of when a game becomes a walking simulator). And yes, people are complaining about the puzzle aspect of having to navigate confusing, multilayered environments that require you to move in both the horizontal and vertical planes. It bothered people to such a degree that the layout of the map was often treated as the main antagonist, with the enemies populating the map simply being irritations that made getting around harder.

That is the essential element of platformers.

Neither expansion falls into the category officially in any capacity but HoT has significantly more of the characteristic elements than PoF has and was a major reason people disliked playing on the maps.

[Vayne.8563]

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:PoF requires more player movement skill than HoT. It's not as punishing when you fail, but that doesn't mean it doesn't require more.

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:My source is that I've played platform games my whole life., So tell me which platform games can you name that required no platforming skill?

If you're just going to completely ignore what I argued and then repeat your subjective opinion that an immeasurable "skill required" factor is the decider here then there's nothing to argue.

By all means, don't let well reasoned arguments get in the way of your personal, "hahaw, guess you people sure do look silly now, huh?" narrative.

I already answered the skill argument. I'll answer it again here.

Let's say that someone comes to Guild Wars who's really bad at shooting. He can't kill stuff. Doesn't know how to aim. Can't tab target. He could come to the forums and post that Guild Wars 2 is nothing but a shooter. I'ts just like asteroids. Most people wouldn't agree and they would find the statement ludicrous. His skill has nothing to do with the fact that this game isn't like asteroids. That's the point. Nor is it like Mario Brothers.

Just the fact that if you enter VB and go left, you can walk across the entire length of VB to get to the next zone without even jumping once, or gliding, or taking an updraft or taking a jumping mushroom would make it significantly different from Mario brothers. That's not to say they don't both have jumping. But lots of games have jumping and gliding that aren't like Mario. People are really complaining about the puzzle aspect, not the platforming aspect, and that's fine I can agree there are a lot of geographical puzzles in HoT. People can say that HOT is punishing if you miss jumps and that's fine, but that doesn't make it a platformer. It means people have to learn to think and solve puzzles. That's all it means.

Okay,

Part A is just irrelevant word salad.

As for part B, all platformers are puzzles. Literally all games are puzzles to at least some degree (hence much argumentation of when a game becomes a walking simulator). And yes, people are complaining about the puzzle aspect of having to navigate confusing, multilayered environments that require you to move in both the horizontal and vertical planes. It bothered people to such a degree that the layout of the map was often treated as the main antagonist, with the enemies populating the map simply being irritations that made getting around harder.

That is the essential element of platformers.

Neither expansion falls into the category officially in any capacity but HoT has significantly more of the characteristic elements than PoF has and was a major reason people disliked playing on the maps.

Puzzles define lots of types of games. Not all platformers are puzzle games. I'd go and say that the puzzle aspect is what's turning people off, not specific platforming mechanics. That and the unforgiving nature if you fail.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

What you classify as platforming isnt the same what everyone else does.

So if you want to be right in your own view of the word platforming then thats going to be a very one sided and pointless discussion. (And has been so far) Stating that it wasnt an issue only stresses the fact you dont care to understand players who according to you use the word wrong.

Its an exercise in pointlessness. Good job.

It may be pointless to you, but clarifying language is not pointless to me, because without clarifying terms, there is no communications and we might as well close down every forum in existence. I'm not the one making up definitions here. I've played literally dozens of platforming games, if not hundreds, and every single one of them required platforming skill. Merely having platforms doesn't make a game a platformer.

SAYS THE GUY GOING SO HARD OUT OF HIS WAY TO AVOID ANSWERING PERFECTLY VALID POINTS BY SEVEN DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Lol yeah ok "communication"

You seem to think that seven different people represent a significant subsection of the forums However a percentage of those 7 people have a history with me, and I'm not convinced that some of them wouldn't argue if I said the sky was blue, so I'm not sure the number of people is as high as you think If we polled the public and asked if HOT like Mario Brothers, pretty sure the percentage of people who said yes would be very very small.

I used to work as a profession editor and there were times when a dozen people all had the same view that turned out to be wrong as soon as it was looked up in the Chicago Style Manual, which we used as a baseline. You can have a room full of people with one guy right and seven guys wrong, except there are also people in this thread who agree with me. The problem is, people dislike HoT so much they're willing to use hyperbole to say negative stuff at a much greater frequency and degree than is warranted. They make HoT sound like the evil empire.

There are jumping mushrooms in Mario and there are jumping mushrooms in HoT. However, in Mario, you have to controll your jumps and in HoT you don't. Seems different to me. Nothing else about Mario and HoT is the same either, including jumping on your foes to incapacitate them. As I've already stated jumping to pick up coins in PoF is directly like mario, including 3 vertical coins you have to do a high jump to get all of. That's practicallly staight from Mario.

But yeah seven guys isn't some kind of vast majority. What you have is a handful of guys who love to argue with me and I'm okay with that. It doesn't, however, make their arguments any stronger.

It's not about how many people are saying some thing. It's about how you pretend nobody said anything when you given a valid point.

Doesn't matter if it's 7, 17, 7000 or just ONE person. You were given a valid point/rebuke and you just pretend it didn't happen while you keep repeating your lines.

And you are not someone who strikes me as a careless reader.

[Zoltar MacRoth.7146]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:Okay, let's say you're right, Vayne: PoF has more platforming than HOT.

So what?

It's an observation. It might mean nothing to you which is fine. But it takes away some of the whole platforming arguments. A couple of posts above this Djinn said he's against all these introduced platforming mechanics in Guild Wars 2. Well there's quite a few platforming mechanics introduced in POF that have been very well accepted by the bulk of the community.

I don't think platform mechanics are an issue in and of themselves and I do think that's worth noting. Sometimes we hold conversations because the topics interest us. It interests me that many of the people who were against platforming mechanics in HoT seem to have no real trouble with mounts. Not all, but some at least. Can't I make a post about something I find interesting?

Sure, except the intensity of your posts suggests you've necroed this old argument to have the last word on it, rather than making a mere observation.

[Vayne.8563]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

What you classify as platforming isnt the same what everyone else does.

So if you want to be right in your own view of the word platforming then thats going to be a very one sided and pointless discussion. (And has been so far) Stating that it wasnt an issue only stresses the fact you dont care to understand players who according to you use the word wrong.

Its an exercise in pointlessness. Good job.

It may be pointless to you, but clarifying language is not pointless to me, because without clarifying terms, there is no communications and we might as well close down every forum in existence. I'm not the one making up definitions here. I've played literally dozens of platforming games, if not hundreds, and every single one of them required platforming skill. Merely having platforms doesn't make a game a platformer.

SAYS THE GUY GOING SO HARD OUT OF HIS WAY TO AVOID ANSWERING PERFECTLY VALID POINTS BY SEVEN DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Lol yeah ok "communication"

You seem to think that seven different people represent a significant subsection of the forums However a percentage of those 7 people have a history with me, and I'm not convinced that some of them wouldn't argue if I said the sky was blue, so I'm not sure the number of people is as high as you think If we polled the public and asked if HOT like Mario Brothers, pretty sure the percentage of people who said yes would be very very small.

I used to work as a profession editor and there were times when a dozen people all had the same view that turned out to be wrong as soon as it was looked up in the Chicago Style Manual, which we used as a baseline. You can have a room full of people with one guy right and seven guys wrong, except there are also people in this thread who agree with me. The problem is, people dislike HoT so much they're willing to use hyperbole to say negative stuff at a much greater frequency and degree than is warranted. They make HoT sound like the evil empire.

There are jumping mushrooms in Mario and there are jumping mushrooms in HoT. However, in Mario, you have to controll your jumps and in HoT you don't. Seems different to me. Nothing else about Mario and HoT is the same either, including jumping on your foes to incapacitate them. As I've already stated jumping to pick up coins in PoF is directly like mario, including 3 vertical coins you have to do a high jump to get all of. That's practicallly staight from Mario.

But yeah seven guys isn't some kind of vast majority. What you have is a handful of guys who love to argue with me and I'm okay with that. It doesn't, however, make their arguments any stronger.

It's not about how many people are saying some thing. It's about how you pretend nobody said anything when you given a valid point.

Doesn't matter if it's 7, 17, 7000 or just ONE person. You were given a valid point/rebuke and you just pretend it didn't happen while you keep repeating your lines.

And you are not someone who strikes me as a careless reader.

If you want to see how many people agree or disagree, try posting it on reddit, which is will give you a clearer idea. I read just fine. It doesn't matter how much I read if the people talking already have an axe to grind because they dislike HoT and they're willing to say whatever it takes to malign it. There are people in this thread, who have said stuff in the past that's factually untrue (in other threads). Didn't stop them from saying it.

Go ahead and post on reddit that HoT is very much like Mario Brothers and see the response you get. That will give you a better idea of who agrees than seven guy, some of whom dislike HoT so much they're go to great lengths to malign it. There are platforming elements in HoT but there are also platforming elements in PoF, and there are more of them by percentage of objectives. You can count if you like.