I don't like Ancient Echo

[ROMANG.1903]

I get that you wanted to give a drawback to picking an elite spec, but this skill feels like you just didn't know what to do. I don't like the way it feels. I'd like it to be replaced, or changed in a way that completes the core class.

One of the reasons I liked revenant is that nothing felt like a chore. Every skill has a purpose and makes a difference. But when a skill is just something you need to use every time it's off CD it removes that class fluidity, and that's exactly what Ancient Echo does, for the sole reason that it gives back energy. Simple way to fix this? Remove its energy gain component entirely and buff it in consequence. That would change it from something you use just to extend Impossible Odds, to something we use when we actually need its unique effect. And just a thought, what if its effect was based on our second equipped legend, instead of the one we're currently using? That would differenciate it from just an additional utility skill, could open some fun interractions, and would fit right into the class phylosophy.

[Justine.6351]

It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

[ROMANG.1903]

@Justine.6351 said:It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

The whole point of adding this skill was to make core class viable. You can't justify its lackluster design by saying that you shouldn't play core class...

[Justine.6351]

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

The whole point of adding this skill was to make core class viable. You can't justify its lackluster design by saying that you shouldn't play core class...

The only way to make "core" revenant "viable" is to make herald not an elite specialization. Notice how people don't say herald all that often? Because when they say renegade they mean renegade and when they say revenant they mean herald.

Tell us what build you would play as core with a moronic level of buffed Ancient Echo, and I am sure someone would still be able to point you to a better build improved by herald or renegade.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

@Justine.6351 said:It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

Is it a new meme?

[Justine.6351]

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:

@Justine.6351 said:It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

Is it a new meme?

noyesidklaserbeams

[Knighthonor.4061]

@ROMANG.1903 said:I get that you wanted to give a drawback to picking an elite spec, but this skill feels like you just didn't know what to do. I don't like the way it feels. I'd like it to be replaced, or changed in a way that completes the core class.

One of the reasons I liked revenant is that nothing felt like a chore. Every skill has a purpose and makes a difference. But when a skill is just something you need to use every time it's off CD it removes that class fluidity, and that's exactly what Ancient Echo does, for the sole reason that it gives back energy. Simple way to fix this? Remove its energy gain component entirely and buff it in consequence. That would change it from something you use just to extend Impossible Odds, to something we use when we actually need its unique effect. And just a thought, what if its effect was based on our second equipped legend, instead of the one we're currently using? That would differenciate it from just an additional utility skill, could open some fun interractions, and would fit right into the class phylosophy.

it may not be perfect but its a great skill for the core revenant. Been running it with Core Ventari in WvW and loving it. Honestly want this on ELite SPecs at this point. would gladly trade Renegade F abilities for this.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Justine.6351 said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@Justine.6351 said:It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

The whole point of adding this skill was to make core class viable. You can't justify its lackluster design by saying that you shouldn't play core class...

The only way to make "core" revenant "viable" is to make herald not an elite specialization. Notice how people don't say herald all that often? Because when they say renegade they mean renegade and when they say revenant they mean herald.

Tell us what build you would play as core with a moronic level of buffed Ancient Echo, and I am sure someone would still be able to point you to a better build improved by herald or renegade.

Wasn't even aware the skill existed tbh, which proves your point I guess.

[Justine.6351]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@Justine.6351 said:It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

The whole point of adding this skill was to make core class viable. You can't justify its lackluster design by saying that you shouldn't play core class...

The only way to make "core" revenant "viable" is to make herald not an elite specialization. Notice how people don't say herald all that often? Because when they say renegade they mean renegade and when they say revenant they mean herald.

Tell us what build you would play as core with a moronic level of buffed Ancient Echo, and I am sure someone would still be able to point you to a better build improved by herald or renegade.

Wasn't even aware the skill existed tbh, which proves your point I guess.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Echo

Was just added last month in an attempt to appease the "core" special players.

[Kain Francois.4328]

I feel like Ancient Echo highlights issues with the core class more than anything: We don't have any worth spending excess energy on.

[DonArkanio.6419]

That's the point. This skill provides literally nothing to the gameplay of Revenant. Facet of Nature is what Ancient Echo should've been. Period.

[otto.5684]

@Justine.6351 said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@Justine.6351 said:It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

The whole point of adding this skill was to make core class viable. You can't justify its lackluster design by saying that you shouldn't play core class...

The only way to make "core" revenant "viable" is to make herald not an elite specialization. Notice how people don't say herald all that often? Because when they say renegade they mean renegade and when they say revenant they mean herald.

Tell us what build you would play as core with a moronic level of buffed Ancient Echo, and I am sure someone would still be able to point you to a better build improved by herald or renegade.

I agree with you. But we still can improve core rev, and rev as a whole by doing 2 things:

1) Reduce CD of ancient echo to 10 secs. Reduce the energy to 10 energy and also the cast time to 0.25 secs.2) buff retribution line a bit in the sustain department. Make Jailis more consistently able to maintain retribution. This is not an exclusive solution for core, but should help all bruiser builds.3) Through a trait in retribution make casting an F skill provide 8 sec swiftness. This should help both core and renegade.4) Through a trait in invocation make using and F skill provide 4 secs fury. Same concept as above.6) The trait in renegade that gives you vigor when you gain fury, I would change to gain vigor when you use an F skill.

This should reduce the ancient echo skills CD by half (some effects might require a bit of nerfing) and also provide core easy access to swiftness and fury, same as herald. I think this will also open renegade PvP viability a bit.

[narcx.3570]

It's op af during your weekly keyfarm... Which coincidently is also the only time you should ever find yourself playing corerevboi anyways.

[ROMANG.1903]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@Justine.6351 said:It is kind of meh, but I think that is exactly what it was supposed to be; a button for people who camp legends while leveling up, and knighthonor. Its 2019 not 2014, pick an elite specialization.

The whole point of adding this skill was to make core class viable. You can't justify its lackluster design by saying that you shouldn't play core class...

The only way to make "core" revenant "viable" is to make herald not an elite specialization. Notice how people don't say herald all that often? Because when they say renegade they mean renegade and when they say revenant they mean herald.

Tell us what build you would play as core with a moronic level of buffed Ancient Echo, and I am sure someone would still be able to point you to a better build improved by herald or renegade.

Wasn't even aware the skill existed tbh, which proves your point I guess.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Echo

Was just added last month in an attempt to appease the

"core"

special players.

It was added because ANet wants to give a drawback to every elite spec, which is very good for the game. If you are always in elite spec, any change to that skill will not affect you. But please, let the people who want to play core revenant discuss about it...

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I feel like Ancient Echo highlights issues with the core class more than anything: We don't have any worth spending excess energy on.

This. I almost never fall short of energy when playing core revenant. If anything, it should be something more impactful that takes us energy, rather than giving back some. The challenge is to make it so that it doesn't overshadow elite specs mechanics... I stand by my idea of some kind of interraction with our second equipped legend.

[LucianDK.8615]

As I see it, Ancient Echo would allow you to be far more liberal with Shiro's Phase Traversal, while still keeping up Impossible Odds. Likewise for Mallyx making use of the jump.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Didn't realize there was this much dislike for the skill. Personally I love it to pieces.

[Skotlex.7580]

If the skill had instant cast, it could be used for getting out of emergencies (eg: recover enough energy to cast great dwarf rite while stun locked).

[ROMANG.1903]

@Skotlex.7580 said:If the skill had instant cast, it could be used for getting out of emergencies (eg: recover enough energy to cast great dwarf rite while stun locked).

I agree, though it should be noted that it already gives you a mini dwarf rite :p

[Dadnir.5038]

Main issue of the skill is that it's a special mechanic which is not supported by any trait. Proving again that revenant is still in it's alpha or beta test phase. Knowing that the game still have stunbreaks with cast time... seriously... How old is this game already? How many years since the revenant was introduced?

Introducing ancient echo was a good idea but the core profession didn't struggle due to it's lack of F2 in the first place.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Here's an exercise in thought: What if Ancient Echo gave us +100 Energy? Would it be worth it then? What if it had a 13s cd?

Hypothetically-speaking, how would that affect viability?

[ROMANG.1903]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Here's an exercise in thought: What if Ancient Echo gave us +100 Energy? Would it be worth it then? What if it had a 13s cd?

Hypothetically-speaking, how would that affect viability?

I personnally never said it wasn't viable or underpowered. My point is that it doesn't fit into the class gameplay and mechanic.

[narcx.3570]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Here's an exercise in thought: What if Ancient Echo gave us +100 Energy? Would it be worth it then? What if it had a 13s cd?

Hypothetically-speaking, how would that affect viability?

That would probably actually be super strong for WvW Zergs and GvG... You could almost indefinitely maintain 100% projectile denial on top of the fight while spamming heals.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Didn't realize there was this much dislike for the skill. Personally I love it to pieces.

You not alone. Need more energy and this here gave me it. I have more reason to run core. Yeah it's not perfect but better than nothing. Would like better core mechanics honestly overall. But that's for another thread

[Knighthonor.4061]

Ventari in burst healing situations especially in small scale fights against hard hitters blow lots of energy. This give me a few extra abilities to pop orbs or blow my tablet for some major Defensive CC healing. Haven't tried it with non Ventari core builds yet . Want to try something else other than Ventari.

[narcx.3570]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Ventari in burst healing situations especially in small scale fights against hard hitters blow lots of energy. This give me a few extra abilities to pop orbs or blow my tablet for some major Defensive CC healing. Haven't tried it with non Ventari core builds yet . Want to try something else other than Ventari.

The thing is, if you're not an overhealing Ventarispammer, the skill will never be as good as your elite spec is... And even then, losing Soulcleave is a much, much bigger loss of healing than you gain from the extra energy in Ventari.

And as for dps/burst pvp specs, you're simply losing too many damage modifiers by not taking Herald or Ren, and no amount of extra energy can make up for that... (And obviously alacrigades have to take the Ren trait line for Orders, so it's a no go for them.)

Honestly tho, I think this skill is doing exactly what Anet intended it to do--give leveling Renegades an extra oomph, and providing a reprieve to all the less experienced/less good Rev's who constantly fail at conceptualizing proper energy management. And in those regards, I'd say it's a pretty big success...