I don't like Ancient Echo

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Ventari in burst healing situations especially in small scale fights against hard hitters blow lots of energy. This give me a few extra abilities to pop orbs or blow my tablet for some major Defensive CC healing. Haven't tried it with non Ventari core builds yet . Want to try something else other than Ventari.

The thing is, if you're not an overhealing Ventarispammer, the skill will

never

be as good as your elite spec is... And even then, losing Soulcleave is a much, much bigger loss of healing than you gain from the extra energy in Ventari.

And as for dps/burst pvp specs, you're simply losing too many damage modifiers by not taking Herald or Ren, and no amount of extra energy can make up for that... (And obviously alacrigades have to take the Ren trait line for Orders, so it's a no go for them.)

Honestly tho, I think this skill is doing exactly what Anet intended it to do--give leveling Renegades an extra oomph, and providing a reprieve to all the less experienced/less good Rev's who constantly fail at conceptualizing proper energy management. And in those regards, I'd say it's a pretty big success...

Well for people that like to experiment with builds like I do, taking an elite specialization line is definitely not always a better option. Playing with core legends in particular, you won't necessarily be gaining more just from the traitline. It is not always about dps and not always about numerical optimization, but creating a build that overall gives you the most optimal play for the playstyle you are going for and legends you want to play with. In plenty of situations, a core line will serve better than an elite traitline. I mean really, core Revenant has some phenomenal core traits that can contribute tremendously to one's success, and just for the simple fact that they are "core" does not make them inherently worse. Personally, I think the Herald traitline is a bit lackluster if not taking Glint. I find it boring and unimpactful, and if I am playing solo, I would rather have Ancient Echo over Facet of Nature. As an example, if I am playing a Shiro/Mallyx condition build, am using Invocation and Corruption already, and am after better defense, I see little use in choosing Herald over say, Retribution or Salvation, unless I am wanting to use the shield. I find it a bit narrow-minded to assume that choosing an elite specialization is black-and-white a better choice. There seems to be a bit of a condescending and elitist undertone from some posts here regarding those who play the core class and I don't really get why. There is more than one way to play the class.

[Obe.4283]

@"Justine.6351" said:Tell us what build you would play as core with a moronic level of buffed Ancient Echo, and I am sure someone would still be able to point you to a better build improved by herald or renegade.

"core" special players.

Always knew i was special. /s

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Main issue of the skill is that it's a special mechanic which is not supported by any trait. Proving again that revenant is still in it's alpha or beta test phase.

Agreed. At the very least Invocation should have a trait related to it.

Anyway... If you're playing core rev (Condi/Power/Hybrid) In WvW (PvP too i imagine) regardless of whether AE is boring/doesn't solve problems with core, not using it is suboptimal. I agree it's mostly useful for leveling Revenants, but it's certainly not a useless skill. Losing AE when you take e-spec isn't a trade-off either, as laid out in the balance notes:

"In the case of revenant elite specializations, we felt that the herald and renegade didn't necessarily need trade-offs. Instead, we felt that the core revenant was missing something."

Let's be real. Core Revenant, in competitive at least, suffers primarily due to Glint (By extension herald itself, but roamers/pvp-ers surely don't use it for traits/shield.) being too good a toolbox to pass up on for most builds. Specifically for power, condi is debatable. Potential full heal, reveal, damage, cc, movement+every boon you could want. For what was meant as a support spec, it's way too good as roamer/+1'er.

"The focus of the herald is on support via boons, utility, and personal defense. This elite specialization will pair well with most of the other legends, providing group utility."I daresay the utility and personal defense is better than the support at this point.

If it were up to me (probably good that it's not) i'd start by taking Glint's heal skill and putting it on Shiro. (Recolor it red and voila, a better meditation of the reaper) Add some burst heal based on the amount of boons on you to Glint. Now Shiro is still a main crutch, but it opens up many more builds.

E-specs being an upgrade sells expansion copies anyway, even if that likely wasn't the original intent. Press F for our boy Colin Sohandsome.

That said, most people will probably dislike nerfs to Glint. So all we can do is aim for improvements to core legends/traits. Is AE amazing? not really, no. Is it an improvement?, yes. If they decide to keep the skill, all it needs is better effects on Shiro/Mallyx/Ventari and mabey 15s CD down from 20. It's unrealistic to put all your expectations for making core viable on this F2.

[narcx.3570]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Ventari in burst healing situations especially in small scale fights against hard hitters blow lots of energy. This give me a few extra abilities to pop orbs or blow my tablet for some major Defensive CC healing. Haven't tried it with non Ventari core builds yet . Want to try something else other than Ventari.

The thing is, if you're not an overhealing Ventarispammer, the skill will

never

be as good as your elite spec is... And even then, losing Soulcleave is a much, much bigger loss of healing than you gain from the extra energy in Ventari.

And as for dps/burst pvp specs, you're simply losing too many damage modifiers by not taking Herald or Ren, and no amount of extra energy can make up for that... (And obviously alacrigades have to take the Ren trait line for Orders, so it's a no go for them.)

Honestly tho, I think this skill is doing exactly what Anet intended it to do--give leveling Renegades an extra oomph, and providing a reprieve to all the less experienced/less good Rev's who constantly fail at conceptualizing proper energy management. And in those regards, I'd say it's a pretty big success...

Well for people that like to experiment with builds like I do, taking an elite specialization line is definitely not always a better option. Playing with core legends in particular, you won't necessarily be gaining more just from the traitline. It is not always about dps and not always about numerical optimization, but creating a build that overall gives you the most optimal play for the playstyle you are going for and legends you want to play with. In plenty of situations, a core line will serve better than an elite traitline. I mean really, core Revenant has some phenomenal core traits that can contribute tremendously to one's success, and just for the simple fact that they are "core" does not make them inherently worse. Personally, I think the Herald traitline is a bit lackluster if not taking Glint. I find it boring and unimpactful, and if I am playing solo, I would rather have Ancient Echo over Facet of Nature. As an example, if I am playing a Shiro/Mallyx condition build, am using Invocation and Corruption already, and am after better defense, I see little use in choosing Herald over say, Retribution or Salvation, unless I am wanting to use the shield. I find it a bit narrow-minded to assume that choosing an elite specialization is black-and-white a better choice. There seems to be a bit of a condescending and elitist undertone from some posts here regarding those who play the core class and I don't really get why. There is more than one way to play the class.

If you like playing core from a fun factor standpoint, that's awesome... Fun is subjective, and nobody can (or should) tell you how to have fun. That's also what makes it a bad measure as to something being "good" tho. Is Ancient Echo good because it's fun? Maybe to you, but again that's subjective... The OP started this thread saying that it feels terrible and monotonous to use, which again is subjective.

All I'm saying is that from a strictly empirical standpoint, Ancient Echo isn't better for a single role, spec, or legend combination than taking an elite trait line is... And maybe for some people min/maxing and pushing your class to its true potential isn't what they find fun, maybe they like (or at least don't mind) it taking a longer time to kill mobs or do hearts or whatever... Gives them time to appreciate the enemy animations and model designs and whatnot. Like the difference between people who buy a sports car and like to see what it can do, vs the people who like to take it slow with the top down and creep on the scenery.

[otto.5684]

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Ventari in burst healing situations especially in small scale fights against hard hitters blow lots of energy. This give me a few extra abilities to pop orbs or blow my tablet for some major Defensive CC healing. Haven't tried it with non Ventari core builds yet . Want to try something else other than Ventari.

The thing is, if you're not an overhealing Ventarispammer, the skill will

never

be as good as your elite spec is... And even then, losing Soulcleave is a much, much bigger loss of healing than you gain from the extra energy in Ventari.

And as for dps/burst pvp specs, you're simply losing too many damage modifiers by not taking Herald or Ren, and no amount of extra energy can make up for that... (And obviously alacrigades have to take the Ren trait line for Orders, so it's a no go for them.)

Honestly tho, I think this skill is doing exactly what Anet intended it to do--give leveling Renegades an extra oomph, and providing a reprieve to all the less experienced/less good Rev's who constantly fail at conceptualizing proper energy management. And in those regards, I'd say it's a pretty big success...

Well for people that like to experiment with builds like I do, taking an elite specialization line is definitely not always a better option. Playing with core legends in particular, you won't necessarily be gaining more just from the traitline. It is not always about dps and not always about numerical optimization, but creating a build that overall gives you the most optimal play for the playstyle you are going for and legends you want to play with. In plenty of situations, a core line will serve better than an elite traitline. I mean really, core Revenant has some phenomenal core traits that can contribute tremendously to one's success, and just for the simple fact that they are "core" does not make them inherently worse. Personally, I think the Herald traitline is a bit lackluster if not taking Glint. I find it boring and unimpactful, and if I am playing solo, I would rather have Ancient Echo over Facet of Nature. As an example, if I am playing a Shiro/Mallyx condition build, am using Invocation and Corruption already, and am after better defense, I see little use in choosing Herald over say, Retribution or Salvation, unless I am wanting to use the shield. I find it a bit narrow-minded to assume that choosing an elite specialization is black-and-white a better choice. There seems to be a bit of a condescending and elitist undertone from some posts here regarding those who play the core class and I don't really get why. There is more than one way to play the class.

If you like playing core from a fun factor standpoint, that's awesome... Fun is subjective, and nobody can (or should) tell you how to have fun. That's also what makes it a bad measure as to something being "good" tho. Is Ancient Echo good because it's fun? Maybe to you, but again that's subjective... The OP started this thread saying that it feels terrible and monotonous to use, which again is subjective.

All I'm saying is that

from a strictly empirical standpoint

, Ancient Echo isn't better for a single role, spec, or legend combination than taking an elite trait line is... And maybe for some people min/maxing and pushing your class to its true potential isn't what they find fun, maybe they like (or at least don't mind) it taking a longer time to kill mobs or do hearts or whatever... Gives them time to appreciate the enemy animations and model designs and whatnot. Like the difference between people who buy a sports car and like to see what it can do, vs the people who like to take it slow with the top down and creep on the scenery.

What was I hoping for is that ancient echo gives life to bruiser rev. It is very good with Jailis. But not good enough to be played competitively in PvP. PvE wise, there is not any space for add to add much, since all roles are covered between herald and renegade.

I think lower CD could be big for its viability. That plus some reliable retribution buffs could make bruiser core build a reality.

[Justine.6351]

@otto.5684 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Ventari in burst healing situations especially in small scale fights against hard hitters blow lots of energy. This give me a few extra abilities to pop orbs or blow my tablet for some major Defensive CC healing. Haven't tried it with non Ventari core builds yet . Want to try something else other than Ventari.

The thing is, if you're not an overhealing Ventarispammer, the skill will

never

be as good as your elite spec is... And even then, losing Soulcleave is a much, much bigger loss of healing than you gain from the extra energy in Ventari.

And as for dps/burst pvp specs, you're simply losing too many damage modifiers by not taking Herald or Ren, and no amount of extra energy can make up for that... (And obviously alacrigades have to take the Ren trait line for Orders, so it's a no go for them.)

Honestly tho, I think this skill is doing exactly what Anet intended it to do--give leveling Renegades an extra oomph, and providing a reprieve to all the less experienced/less good Rev's who constantly fail at conceptualizing proper energy management. And in those regards, I'd say it's a pretty big success...

Well for people that like to experiment with builds like I do, taking an elite specialization line is definitely not always a better option. Playing with core legends in particular, you won't necessarily be gaining more just from the traitline. It is not always about dps and not always about numerical optimization, but creating a build that overall gives you the most optimal play for the playstyle you are going for and legends you want to play with. In plenty of situations, a core line will serve better than an elite traitline. I mean really, core Revenant has some phenomenal core traits that can contribute tremendously to one's success, and just for the simple fact that they are "core" does not make them inherently worse. Personally, I think the Herald traitline is a bit lackluster if not taking Glint. I find it boring and unimpactful, and if I am playing solo, I would rather have Ancient Echo over Facet of Nature. As an example, if I am playing a Shiro/Mallyx condition build, am using Invocation and Corruption already, and am after better defense, I see little use in choosing Herald over say, Retribution or Salvation, unless I am wanting to use the shield. I find it a bit narrow-minded to assume that choosing an elite specialization is black-and-white a better choice. There seems to be a bit of a condescending and elitist undertone from some posts here regarding those who play the core class and I don't really get why. There is more than one way to play the class.

If you like playing core from a fun factor standpoint, that's awesome... Fun is subjective, and nobody can (or should) tell you how to have fun. That's also what makes it a bad measure as to something being "good" tho. Is Ancient Echo good because it's fun? Maybe to you, but again that's subjective... The OP started this thread saying that it feels terrible and monotonous to use, which again is subjective.

All I'm saying is that

from a strictly empirical standpoint

, Ancient Echo isn't better for a single role, spec, or legend combination than taking an elite trait line is... And maybe for some people min/maxing and pushing your class to its true potential isn't what they find fun, maybe they like (or at least don't mind) it taking a longer time to kill mobs or do hearts or whatever... Gives them time to appreciate the enemy animations and model designs and whatnot. Like the difference between people who buy a sports car and like to see what it can do, vs the people who like to take it slow with the top down and creep on the scenery.

What was I hoping for is that ancient echo gives life to bruiser rev. It is very good with Jailis. But not good enough to be played competitively in PvP. PvE wise, there is not any space for add to add much, since all roles are covered between herald and renegade.

I think lower CD could be big for its viability. That plus some reliable retribution buffs could make bruiser core build a reality.

Could just play a warrior.

[Einlanzer.1627]

It was honestly a pretty lazy attempt at addressing the problems with core revenant, but I suppose it's better than nothing.

[otto.5684]

@Justine.6351 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Ventari in burst healing situations especially in small scale fights against hard hitters blow lots of energy. This give me a few extra abilities to pop orbs or blow my tablet for some major Defensive CC healing. Haven't tried it with non Ventari core builds yet . Want to try something else other than Ventari.

The thing is, if you're not an overhealing Ventarispammer, the skill will

never

be as good as your elite spec is... And even then, losing Soulcleave is a much, much bigger loss of healing than you gain from the extra energy in Ventari.

And as for dps/burst pvp specs, you're simply losing too many damage modifiers by not taking Herald or Ren, and no amount of extra energy can make up for that... (And obviously alacrigades have to take the Ren trait line for Orders, so it's a no go for them.)

Honestly tho, I think this skill is doing exactly what Anet intended it to do--give leveling Renegades an extra oomph, and providing a reprieve to all the less experienced/less good Rev's who constantly fail at conceptualizing proper energy management. And in those regards, I'd say it's a pretty big success...

Well for people that like to experiment with builds like I do, taking an elite specialization line is definitely not always a better option. Playing with core legends in particular, you won't necessarily be gaining more just from the traitline. It is not always about dps and not always about numerical optimization, but creating a build that overall gives you the most optimal play for the playstyle you are going for and legends you want to play with. In plenty of situations, a core line will serve better than an elite traitline. I mean really, core Revenant has some phenomenal core traits that can contribute tremendously to one's success, and just for the simple fact that they are "core" does not make them inherently worse. Personally, I think the Herald traitline is a bit lackluster if not taking Glint. I find it boring and unimpactful, and if I am playing solo, I would rather have Ancient Echo over Facet of Nature. As an example, if I am playing a Shiro/Mallyx condition build, am using Invocation and Corruption already, and am after better defense, I see little use in choosing Herald over say, Retribution or Salvation, unless I am wanting to use the shield. I find it a bit narrow-minded to assume that choosing an elite specialization is black-and-white a better choice. There seems to be a bit of a condescending and elitist undertone from some posts here regarding those who play the core class and I don't really get why. There is more than one way to play the class.

If you like playing core from a fun factor standpoint, that's awesome... Fun is subjective, and nobody can (or should) tell you how to have fun. That's also what makes it a bad measure as to something being "good" tho. Is Ancient Echo good because it's fun? Maybe to you, but again that's subjective... The OP started this thread saying that it feels terrible and monotonous to use, which again is subjective.

All I'm saying is that

from a strictly empirical standpoint

, Ancient Echo isn't better for a single role, spec, or legend combination than taking an elite trait line is... And maybe for some people min/maxing and pushing your class to its true potential isn't what they find fun, maybe they like (or at least don't mind) it taking a longer time to kill mobs or do hearts or whatever... Gives them time to appreciate the enemy animations and model designs and whatnot. Like the difference between people who buy a sports car and like to see what it can do, vs the people who like to take it slow with the top down and creep on the scenery.

What was I hoping for is that ancient echo gives life to bruiser rev. It is very good with Jailis. But not good enough to be played competitively in PvP. PvE wise, there is not any space for add to add much, since all roles are covered between herald and renegade.

I think lower CD could be big for its viability. That plus some reliable retribution buffs could make bruiser core build a reality.

Could just play a warrior.

That is like saying scrapper and SB are the same. There are 5-6 roles that any build will fulfill and 9 classes with base 27 variations of elites and core. I am pretty certain bruiser builds are not exclusive to warriors.

[Dadnir.5038]

What ancient echo need:

• An upkeep skill as a set up: Ancient bond: Your legend skills cost 33% less energy. Upkeep 2 energy pips.
• Ancient echo is now a linked skill and refound 25 energy along with a boon specific to the current legend when used.
• Ancient echo - Jalis: 3 seconds protection.
• Ancient echo - Shiro: 5 seconds of fury.
• Ancient echo - Ventari: 10 seconds of swiftness (This is a freaking centaur, swiftness should be a given in it's kit!).
• Ancient echo - Malyx: 5 might stacks for 7 seconds.
• Ancient bond get a 20 second CD starting after ancient echo is used.

Here we go, we promote active gameplay instead of mindlessly using the legend's upkeep skill by making other skill with high energy cost more accessible with 33% less energy cost that come at the expense of energy regeneration. Ancient echo now is a bit more strategic to use and a bit less gimmicky. This make the whole Ancient bond-Ancient echo skill a gameplay defining, adding more unique variations to the core making the choice to go into an e-spec a real trade-off.

[Thornwolf.9721]

Ancient Echo Didn't fix anything for those who play the class as intended; It's a nice quality of life and vanity thing but really it doesn't provide anything needed.

Adding another legend, one specifically tied to invocation would be good. That would be far more impact-full especially if it brought tools like glint, but different enough that neither were the same (The heal, perhaps some hard cc.) This would then mean its up to what flavor you want, and how you want to play not on if you wana try your best rendition of dark-souls with core. (Core power builds are horrible, herald is 100% better.)

Core needs love in alot of ways, I Feel shiro needs a rework because some of his skills I can't justify using. Turn his heal into battle-scars(One of his skills used in our fight with him during guild wars 1) and let it heal like glint? Maybe also do damage back to the attack? Turn jade winds into something more useful, because while its cool when it works if you are running WvW or PvP anyone with a brain will dodge it.

Rework mallyx to be more in line with his original concept, Beta mallyx would be perfect for todays game. Imagine a mallyx rev walking through sand shades and just becoming stronger due to all the condi spam. Redirecting it all back onto enemies and simply being hard to kill if not impossible to kill with a condi spec; Would be a hard counter to all the condi builds out there and would encourage power builds as well. (With power herald being a hard counter for them.)

One more on land weapon for ranged condi, Scepter/focus placed in the invocation line with invocation like skills with a legend focus around being a caster. A mid range to long range weapon so we have more options than hammer. (Shortbow on Renegade sucks, so it would be a good addition to all the different facets and builds. Especially if it could do what trident does and change based on what build you desire to run.)

[Scoobaniec.9561]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

(With power herald being a hard counter for them.)

Since when? Lmao. I eat power heralds between meals.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

(With power herald being a hard counter for them.)

Since when? Lmao. I eat power heralds between meals.

Then they aren't good at their craft XD, A Good power herald can really mess someone up if they know how to do their things. But it also depends like warrior poops on them, as does engie.

[Justine.6351]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Turn jade winds into something more useful, because while its cool when it works if you are running WvW or PvP anyone with a brain will dodge it.

So cancel it?By all means people, keep asking anet to rework good stuff like staff and shiro and Jade winds will probably be turned into Jade wind orbs that heal allies who step on them. At least gw1 players would finally feel like their stack of obsolete trophies from 2006 had a use.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jade_Wind_Orb

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@Justine.6351 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Turn jade winds into something more useful, because while its cool when it works if you are running WvW or PvP anyone with a brain will dodge it.

So cancel it?By all means people, keep asking anet to rework good stuff like staff and shiro and Jade winds will probably be turned into Jade wind orbs that heal allies who step on them. At least gw1 players would finally feel like their stack of obsolete trophies from 2006 had a use.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jade_Wind_Orb

Jade orbs, lmao. Oh the horror! But seriously, Jade Winds is a fantastic skill and doesn't need to be reworked.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

(With power herald being a hard counter for them.)

Since when? Lmao. I eat power heralds between meals.

Then they aren't good at their craft XD, A Good power herald can really mess someone up if they know how to do their things. But it also depends like warrior poops on them, as does engie.

Or maybe torment/confusion eats em alive while i dance around and sing "let it go"??

[Shao.7236]

I like Ancient Echo, it made Charged Mist less necessary to use yet extremely beneficial to have. The synergy if well done can be extremely good.