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narcx.3570

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Shiro/Glint Meta build is so heavy used because every variant with sustain or anything else falls far behind.No trade off. Dmg nerf Im ok with but no buff elswhere.Rev doesnt have big dmg, Rev can only dishout everything fast. I would be rather like warrior, no burst but hitting 8k on movement skills etc.

My issue is. If I build up for beign tankier, I cannot kill anyone and still I can pretty ez Die, warriors, holos,SBests,: have higher sustain, higher burstdmg, and higher avarage dmg. Same with healing, I cannot healup endlessly(thank god, it will be joyless pvp)Only thing that worked was doing burst dmg in 2v1 situations.

I believe most of rev pvp population is bored to play this meta build (shiro-Glint) but no other builds are that effective as this one.

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:Well, I don't SPvP, since I'm not a fan of conquest/capture-point based gameplay, so this patch didn't really hit me.

But I still want to say: it's kinda funny to see a Thief talking about "stuck mindsets", while at the same time complaining about the swipe nerf last patch.I think it was a well deserved change to add to the "class fantasy" of a melee thief.Granted, I don't really know about balance in SPvP, nor do I care about it, I'm just stating this opinion to spite you, seeing as you are doing the same to Revs without adding anything to the discussion aside from a subtle "you don't know how to play the game".

Don't remember saying
"you don't know how to play the game"
anywhere or even implying it.However as you say you don't play PvP nor do you know anything about its balance, so I can see why you can't realise that Swipe change is something inherently different from few trait nerfs.I am not adding anything to Rev discussion because there is literally nothing to discuss, the nerfs were deserved.But I guess let's compare a drastic change to the most crucial core mechanic to adjustment of a overperforming trait and call it a day ;)

I don't know, your whole post kind of implies it.But I also see that you're stuck in your own mindset, so I can see why you don't realise how much of a comedic value your post has for me. As long as the nerfs aren't targeted to ones own class they are deserved, but once they do nerf the own class the crying begins.But let's just pretend that you know everything there is to know about balance and say that various trait and might-duration changes are less importat than one single skill ;)I didn't know the core mechanic of daredevil is swipe and not the dodges.

Man I love talking the same way you do, so pretentious.

Edit: Just had a little laugh when I noticed that swipe is basically just a minor Adept trait, so the change to the swipe range is just a "overperforming trait" adjustment

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Revs burst definitely needed toned down as it was way too high. For the people thinking that revs burst damage was fine is it because of low sustain? Do you think all classes with low hp and sustain should have such high bursts? Cuz hearing from alot of revs that it seems like they think only rev fits this criteria. Maybe arena net shoulda buffed other areas so rev didnt have to rely on a op burst potential. I use rev in wvw and deleted people with revs burst far faster than I ever have on other burst classes when melee is concerned. Only issue in survivability I had was disengaging reliably if I needed to. In arenet fashion instead of fixing any root problems like why the rev rely'd so heavily on its op burst to function and buff other aspects of the class they just listen to the community and hear burst is to high so let's lower it they say and leave it at that.

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@Raknar.4735 said:As long as the nerfs aren't targeted to ones own class they are deserved, but once they do nerf the own class the crying begins.

Rev is my most beloved main along with Thief (and Ele). But even if that was not true this "point" you mention would be laughably irrelevant anyway.

@Raknar.4735 said:But let's just pretend that you know everything there is to know about balance and say that various trait and might-duration changes are less importat than one single skill ;)

Again, childish imagination. I never even behaved in such a way, I am just pointing out the unbelievable irony of a guy who claims he/she doesn't play PvP and doesn't know balance and then assaults opinion of someone who definitely plays PvP and knows balance, utterly stupidly overestimating that the other guy (me) pretends to know everything just because you know less and very very obviously doesn't understand said points, I guess you objectively having less experience than me somehow means I am saying I know everything. Jesus.

@Raknar.4735 said:I didn't know the core mechanic of daredevil is swipe and not the dodges.

Steal is a core mechanic of entire Thief profession. With DE they changed it to be exactly what DE needed. With DD they changed it to just worse Steal, that is not trade-off that is nonsense that actually doesn't fit the theme they claim DD to be. And yet even despite that, I said in my comments that if they reduce it only to 900 then it will be doable, while also agreeing with other people that it can be changed to something completely different than just worse steal.But ye, you only proved you don't even understand what you are talking about.

@Raknar.4735 said:I can see why you don't realise how much of a comedic value your post has for me.

Just ... =DDDClaims he/she doesn't know balance and doesn't play PvP, proceeds to stamp comedic value on a post that points out the insane irony of that since you comment on sPvP and balanceTrust me mate, the joke is on you so so so hard.

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@Alatar.7364 said:I saw thread like this comming so I just popped in Rev forums and you didn't not disappoint;How the hell could anyone and I mean absolutely anyone think that Rev did not deserve dmg nerf? Heck I even saw one guy here claiming Rev already had low burst dmg?!? You people sure we play the same game?You seem to be desperately stuck in pre-2017 November mindset.

If i remember correctly, power shiro/glint had/has the highest winrate in PvP (if the only one).

And isnt it one of the most played build in ATs because its so strong?

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@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:I saw thread like this comming so I just popped in Rev forums and you didn't not disappoint;How the hell could
anyone
and I mean
absolutely anyone
think that Rev did not deserve dmg nerf? Heck I even saw one guy here claiming Rev already had low burst dmg?!? You people sure we play the same game?You seem to be desperately stuck in pre-2017 November mindset.

If i remember correctly, power shiro/glint had/has the highest winrate in PvP (if the only one).

And isnt it one of the most played build in ATs because its so strong?

Every single time my AT team faced any of the top Lege Teams there was power Rev, sometimes two of them.I do not know about its Winrates in PvP but if it's anything like in ATs then most likely yes. It shines especialy in DuoQ, so Lege-players undoubtedly stomp great majority of matches with it. Last Season (maybe the current one as well, didn't check now) there were 3 or 4 people in top 10 that I know for a fact played power Rev for its entire duration.

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:As long as the nerfs aren't targeted to ones own class they are deserved, but once they do nerf the own class the crying begins.

Rev is my most beloved main along with Thief
(and Ele)
. But even if that was not true this "point" you mention would be laughably irrelevant anyway.

I don't believe you. This "point" may be laughably irrelevent, yet it is strangely true for you.

@Raknar.4735 said:But let's just pretend that you know everything there is to know about balance and say that various trait and might-duration changes are less importat than one single skill ;)

Again, childish imagination. I never even behaved in such a way, I am just pointing out the unbelievable irony of a guy who claims he/she doesn't play PvP and doesn't know balance and then assaults opinion of someone who
definitely
plays PvP and knows balance, utterly stupidly overestimating that the other guy (me) pretends to know everything just because you know less and very very obviously doesn't understand said points, I guess you objectively having less experience than me somehow means I am saying I know everything. Jesus.

Calling someone else a "child", or saying they have a "childish imagination" is what I would call childish behaviour, only because they have another opinion. I guess you've never heard of the term "hyperbole", something I frequently use to show how absurd someone else is being.I also love how you, by "having more experience", automaticly devalue the opinion of others and state your opinion as fact, since you didn't want to add anything to this discussion, just participating to tell others they are stuck in their mindset.I guess you're just not self reflecting enough to see how others could see that opinion as hostile.

@Raknar.4735 said:I didn't know the core mechanic of daredevil is swipe and not the dodges.

Steal is a core mechanic of entire Thief profession. With DE they changed it to be
exactly
what DE needed. With DD they changed it to just worse Steal, that is not trade-off that is nonsense that actually doesn't fit the theme they claim DD to be. And yet even despite that, I said in my comments that if they reduce it only to 900 then it will be doable, while also agreeing with other people that it can be changed to something completely different than just worse steal.But ye, you only proved you don't even understand what you are talking about.

That is how Arenanet intends the trade-off. You not agreeing with it doesn't make it any less of a trade-off. It does fit the daredevil theme of a melee based agile fighter based on dodges.But again, you've been proving to not know what a "theme" is, and are just complaining because your thief has been nerfed.

@Raknar.4735 said:I can see why you don't realise how much of a comedic value your post has for me.

Just ... =DDD
Claims he/she doesn't know balance and doesn't play PvP, proceeds to stamp comedic value on a post that points out the insane irony of that since you comment on sPvP and balance
Trust me mate, the joke is on you so so so hard.

Hey, I'm having fun here, but you're just showing me that you don't know what you're talking about. You can't differ between trade-offs and class mechanics. You say that Rev only got trait nerfs, yet the steal -> swipe change is also just a trait. Idk bro

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I do understand why Rev damage was nerfed, but my biggest issue is how Roiling Mists was nerfed. It just feels like a dud GM now. I only WvW and rarely run with RM so it doesn't affect me much, but as @"ventusthunder.5067" pointed out it is pretty heavily outshined by other similar traits such as Vicious Quarry on Ranger, even by Notoriety on Rev, which is a master and not grandmaster trait.

Also TIL it is Roiling Mists and not Rolling. Oopsies.

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@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I do understand why Rev damage was nerfed, but my biggest issue is how Roiling Mists was nerfed. It just feels like a dud GM now. I only WvW and rarely run with RM so it doesn't affect me much, but as @"ventusthunder.5067" pointed out it is pretty heavily outshined by other similar traits such as Vicious Quarry on Ranger, even by Notoriety on Rev, which is a master and not grandmaster trait.

Also TIL it is Roiling Mists and not Rolling. Oopsies.Rev damage was nerfed only by 10% on autos? Rev is lucky avoided damage nerfs on skillsThere is no more damage nerfs. Self 25 might stacks were nerfed. Engi/warrior comes next to my mind who need it as well.RM nerf ye, 10%, probably wasnt needed... these who didnt ran song will do now.@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:If i remember correctly, power shiro/glint had/has the highest winrate in PvP (if the only one).And isnt it one of the most played build in ATs because its so strong?More likely it was known as "the most broken class in pvp". These who say it was bad are disconnected from pvp themselves.

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Rolling mists really needs a secondary effect, much how vicious quarry has, to be worthy of being a gm trait. As it is now it looks more like what a minor trait would be, but this has me wondering if they are nerfing revenants damage via reduced might uptime and aa damage then what is their plan for the class (talking strictly about spvp and herald).Revenant by design has traitlines that each fill very different roles and not all lines have much in the way of synergy because of that, for example taking salvation in a dps build is a no-go, and the same can be said about corruption for a power builds, ect.. This is to say if they nerf the shiro burst build too much rev disappears from spvp because that is the only build the class has which can compete with the rest of the meta at the moment.

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@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I do understand why Rev damage was nerfed, but my biggest issue is how Roiling Mists was nerfed. It just feels like a dud GM now. I only WvW and rarely run with RM so it doesn't affect me much, but as @"ventusthunder.5067" pointed out it is pretty heavily outshined by other similar traits such as Vicious Quarry on Ranger, even by Notoriety on Rev, which is a master and not grandmaster trait.

Also TIL it is Roiling Mists and not Rolling. Oopsies.

Well that would depend on your role, I'm assuming you roam as Rev? I play as a Hammer Herald in the backline, so while Song might help during a push, RM was always a benefit, whether I was stomping through foes or just putting out ranged pressure.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Revs burst definitely needed toned down as it was way too high. For the people thinking that revs burst damage was fine is it because of low sustain? Do you think all classes with low hp and sustain should have such high bursts? Cuz hearing from alot of revs that it seems like they think only rev fits this criteria.

I do think rev burst was kind of fine, but it isn't just because of the low sustain, it's because of the class mechanics... Rev is the ONLY burst class that uses the same resource for offense, defense, and mobility. So when a rev goes all in with that insane burst (which by the way has pretty easy telegraphs if you have your graphics set right) and doesn't kill the person, they can't defend themselves. It's not the same as when a thief/holo/mesmer/war/soulbeast unloads on somebody and then LOLz! vanishes/elixer s's/distorts+blink+stealths/endure pain+fc's/signet of stone's away... I should also note that for many of those other classes, they don't even have to use a skill to escape safely because a trait in a line that they'd take anyways provides it for them.

I'm not saying that I don't think Rev burst was too high (especially in pvp where you don't have all the extra bonus toughness/hp on people like WvW has), but I think, if anything, it was somewhat justified and honestly the most balanced out of all the burst classes. It has real counters like blatant wind ups on skills, a reliance on boons, and the fact that every ounce of burst you put forth costs you that amount of defensive survivability... Compare that to how a holo or soulbeast can mask their blatant burst skill animations with stealth, drop someone in the middle of a team fight, and instantly escape.

If they want to tone down rev's burst, they need to tone up their ability to do damage while defending themselves, or slight damage nerf after slight damage nerf will eventually push rev back down to bottom/meme tier where they were at before Incensed Response and the OH Sword rework saved them from being the outclassed joke of PoF.

All in all, with the exception of Roiling Mists, I don't even think these nerfs are that bad... But they are a scary precedent and a little bewildering that they were the only balance changes and completely lacked any explanation behind them (which is allegedly supposed to be anet's new direction). Seems more like it's just anet reacting to infometric trends of Rev's rising use in sPvP (without considering all the reasons why, most notably the mirage nerfs making mirage less used) and trying to bandaid fix it without any sort of logical balance/compensation, which is how they always end up killing a class.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I do understand why Rev damage was nerfed, but my biggest issue is how Roiling Mists was nerfed. It just feels like a dud GM now. I only WvW and rarely run with RM so it doesn't affect me much, but as @"ventusthunder.5067" pointed out it is pretty heavily outshined by other similar traits such as Vicious Quarry on Ranger, even by Notoriety on Rev, which is a master and not grandmaster trait.

Also TIL it is Roiling Mists and not Rolling. Oopsies.

Well that would depend on your role, I'm assuming you roam as Rev? I play as a Hammer Herald in the backline, so while Song might help during a push, RM was always a benefit, whether I was stomping through foes or just putting out ranged pressure.

RM was untouched in WvW though yes? And yes I spend 90% of my time roaming but tend to use Charged Mists and SotM. But yes when running hammer in zergs, Roiling Mists is definitely superior.

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To clarify I'm also in accordance with you other class players in this thread discussing how damage was too high. I do think this is a step in the right direction, but:

1) Nerfing core invocation traits because sword offhand is broken is stupid.

2) Whether this continues in the right direction with the next patch, once rev has hopefully fallen out of PvP meta, is of primary importance.

3) Make this class less of a one-trick pony please.

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@narcx.3570 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Revs burst definitely needed toned down as it was way too high. For the people thinking that revs burst damage was fine is it because of low sustain? Do you think all classes with low hp and sustain should have such high bursts? Cuz hearing from alot of revs that it seems like they think only rev fits this criteria.

I do think rev burst was kind of fine, but it isn't just because of the low sustain, it's because of the class mechanics... Rev is the
ONLY
burst class that uses the same resource for offense, defense, and mobility. So when a rev goes all in with that insane burst (which by the way has pretty easy telegraphs if you have your graphics set right) and doesn't kill the person, they can't defend themselves. It's not the same as when a thief/holo/mesmer/war/soulbeast unloads on somebody and then kitten vanishes/elixer s's/distorts+blink+stealths/endure pain+fc's/signet of stone's away... I should also note that for many of those other classes,
they don't even have to use a skill to escape safely
because a trait in a line that they'd take anyways provides it for them.

I'm not saying that I don't think Rev burst was too high (especially in pvp where you don't have all the extra bonus toughness/hp on people like WvW has), but I think, if anything, it was somewhat justified and honestly the most balanced out of all the burst classes. It has real counters like blatant wind ups on skills, a reliance on boons, and the fact that every ounce of burst you put forth costs you that amount of defensive survivability... Compare that to how a holo or soulbeast can mask their blatant burst skill animations with stealth, drop someone in the middle of a team fight, and instantly escape.

If they want to tone down rev's burst, they need to tone up their ability to do damage while defending themselves, or slight damage nerf after slight damage nerf will eventually push rev back down to bottom/meme tier where they were at before Incensed Response and the OH Sword rework saved them from being the outclassed joke of PoF.

All in all, with the exception of Roiling Mists, I don't even think these nerfs are
that
bad... But they are a scary precedent and a little bewildering that they were the only balance changes and completely lacked any explanation behind them (which is allegedly supposed to be anet's new direction). Seems more like it's just anet reacting to infometric trends of Rev's rising use in sPvP (without considering all the reasons why, most notably the mirage nerfs making mirage less used) and trying to bandaid fix it without any sort of logical balance/compensation, which is how they always end up killing a class.

I do not think Anet prompt changes with little thought and understanding are new. It has been the theme for like the last year now. This is just continuation of fail balance trend.

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@Catchyfx.5768 said:Shiro/Glint Meta build is so heavy used because every variant with sustain or anything else falls far behind.No trade off. Dmg nerf Im ok with but no buff elswhere.Rev doesnt have big dmg, Rev can only dishout everything fast. I would be rather like warrior, no burst but hitting 8k on movement skills etc.

My issue is. If I build up for beign tankier, I cannot kill anyone and still I can pretty ez Die, warriors, holos,SBests,: have higher sustain, higher burstdmg, and higher avarage dmg. Same with healing, I cannot healup endlessly(thank god, it will be joyless pvp)Only thing that worked was doing burst dmg in 2v1 situations.

I believe most of rev pvp population is bored to play this meta build (shiro-Glint) but no other builds are that effective as this one.

That's not true, Revenant can still be tanky and have damage, it's all about playing the legends right which the majority fails to. It hurts to see how many people agree to this and are asking for buffs, there won't be any buffs for Revenant, it's fine as it is. Unable to heal endlessly? Have you explored the options even?

People are so hard stuck to Herald, it's aggravating.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@Catchyfx.5768 said:Shiro/Glint Meta build is so heavy used because every variant with sustain or anything else falls far behind.No trade off. Dmg nerf Im ok with but no buff elswhere.Rev doesnt have big dmg, Rev can only dishout everything fast. I would be rather like warrior, no burst but hitting 8k on movement skills etc.

My issue is. If I build up for beign tankier, I cannot kill anyone and still I can pretty ez Die, warriors, holos,SBests,: have higher sustain, higher burstdmg, and higher avarage dmg. Same with healing, I cannot healup endlessly(thank god, it will be joyless pvp)Only thing that worked was doing burst dmg in 2v1 situations.

I believe most of rev pvp population is bored to play this meta build (shiro-Glint) but no other builds are that effective as this one.

That's not true, Revenant can still be tanky and have damage, it's all about playing the legends right which the majority fails to. It hurts to see how many people agree to this and are asking for buffs, there won't be any buffs for Revenant, it's fine as it is. Unable to heal endlessly? Have you explored the options even?

People are so hard stuck to Herald, it's aggravating.

This. Core rev has superior sustain to herald if you pick up steady trait. Jfl at running around with superspeed and healing for over 500hp/s while also having access to lifesteal and heal skills. Healing is definitely the last option that needs a buff

And don't even get me started on my condi core rev with torment runes in wvw.

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:To be honest I like these nerfs. Though I love S/S Shiro I think people glued to it too much. This might take away some of the interest from Shiro and spread it on more legends since Power Herald isn't the only viable PvP build right now.I understand the disappointment and hatred - I just think this is a healthy change for the whole class.

Next on the list:

  • Update Ancient Echo and make it useful
  • Fix Jalis' identity
  • Renegade
  • new core weapon
  • Shield
  • Every single trait in Devastation is due for an update since there are 3-4 that are used so..

With respect, if anything should be known by the community by now, it's that nerfing the meta build in a vacuum doesn't increase viable build variety. It just makes all options equally bad.

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@"Arkantos.7460" said:i see myself using renegade for tpvp

I don't.

At the begining of this PvP season played condi Renegade for about 40 matches, and "tanky" Glint-Jalis for another 40. Condi Renegade was a glass cannon with no sustain and hateful to play due every time I had to swap to staff my damage fell near to 0; Jalis build is a bad joke due as a "tank" is outclased in sutain by almost every other profession, while barely doing damage and falling away from Firebrand in support. And Jalis having the breakstun in the elite with a 40 energy unit cost and a 1.25 sec cast is just insane. Both trash tier builds, sunk me to silver. Then changed to power Herald with zerker amulet and suddenly stacked streaks of 8 - 12 wins in a row.

The nerfs makes sense in the ANet pattern:

  • Power Herald was strong in boon duration -> boon duration is nuked.
  • Power Herald has reliable access to quickness -> quicknes ends mostly removed.
  • Power Herald procced tons of vulnerability, which interacted with a wide array of traits -> vulnerability is removed from most of our sources.
  • Power Herald stacks large amounts of might (to compensate poor base damage) -> might stacking gets nerfed.

    ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever!

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@narcx.3570 said:

All in all, with the exception of Roiling Mists, I don't even think these nerfs are that bad... But they are a scary precedent and a little bewildering that they were the only balance changes and completely lacked any explanation behind them (which is allegedly supposed to be anet's new direction). Seems more like it's just anet reacting to infometric trends of Rev's rising use in sPvP (without considering all the reasons why, most notably the mirage nerfs making mirage less used) and trying to bandaid fix it without any sort of logical balance/compensation, which is how they always end up killing a class.

This right here, should make everyone really REALLY nervous with Anets balancing.

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