Skyscale mount mechanics (not about timegate)

[Kidel.2057]

Congrats qnd welcome. You still need to press W, so auto grab.

[Kidel.2057]

Congrats and welcome. You still need to press W, so auto grab.

Regarding the Jackal/Raptor discussion, sure, the Raptor may be useful to jump across a rift designed for the Raptor. But I'm sure 90% of players (who can) would just use the Griffon.

As said before, try to race in Crystal Oasis against Raptors using a Jackal. That track is pretty close to real-game scenarios. If you play with Jackal, by the end you'll be first, with Raptors behind by a lot, maybe still close to the first half of the track.

It will open your eyes. And I say this as a guy with 2 Raptor skins (I like how it looks).

[Ashantara.8731]

@Kidel.2057 said:[...]The fact that you're still going to use it if you're not in a hurry, or to show off, or for fun/variety, is not enough to justify the effort. That last part is, in case I need to specify, my personal opinion.

Well, it is still the only mount with which you can climb walls of any height, heigher than a Springer can jump. And Kaineng City has very high buildings. ;) So do the Kurzick with their Cathedrals :p , although I am certain those can be climbed with a Springer due to their design structure.

[Kidel.2057]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Kidel.2057" said:[...]The fact that you're still going to use it if you're not in a hurry, or to show off, or for fun/variety, is not enough to justify the effort. That last part is, in case I need to specify, my personal opinion.

Well, it is still the only mount with which you can climb walls of

any

height, heigher than a Springer can jump. And Kaineng City has very high buildings. ;) So do the Kurzick with their Cathedrals :p , although I am certain those can be climbed with a Springer due to their design structure.

The Skyscale can't climb anything that a Springer can't. I'd even say it's less versatile, but I need to test the [C] thing once I get home, to see if I can avoid grab and land on small ledges without dismounting.

And you need small ledges to regain your "flight juice".The dude can't even fly in a straight line. Unlike the Griffon you lose altitude fast as hell with a Skyscale.

The only advantage over Springer is that you can hover and you can start from a higher position if you are on another cliff. But the same thing can be accomplished using Griffon/gliding most of the time.

[Kidel.2057]

To be honest a big and fast improvement would be a decrease in the altitude loss when moving forward (pretty much similar to a triple dash)

[Ashantara.8731]

@Kidel.2057 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Kidel.2057 said:[...]The fact that you're still going to use it if you're not in a hurry, or to show off, or for fun/variety, is not enough to justify the effort. That last part is, in case I need to specify, my personal opinion.

Well, it is still the only mount with which you can climb walls of

any

height, heigher than a Springer can jump. And Kaineng City has very high buildings. ;) So do the Kurzick with their Cathedrals :p , although I am certain those can be climbed with a Springer due to their design structure.

The Skyscale can't climb anything that a Springer can't.

Yes, it can with the 3rd Mastery! A Springer could never climb a skyscrapper, for instance (unless it is a modern design with platforms each couple of floors).

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I think at minimum they should add a mastery tier to allow the mount to use updrafts. Have the flight meter recharge in updrafts. It wouldn't infringe on gliding as you can't turn the mount off/on instantly like gliding. I do think they need to remove the forward movement cost on the meter.

[Rukario.1695]

As far as I know it cannot just infinitely grapple surfaces to scale them, it's only useful for one or two small jumps as far as I remember from the Live Showing.

You can recharge a small amount of altitude juice on the wall and then that is it, you cannot go further than that. You cannot use your endurance skill to recharge anything as it is locked during certain actions on the Skyscale.

They tried really hard to not allow it to replace any mount and whereas I understand the mentality behind the decision, I have to disagree with it given the sheer amount of time and effort required to get this mount in contrast to the others.

Even if you're within the same airspace you started with, you cannot freely go up and down without consequentially losing your ability to go up as far as you were before. You're literally punished for tilting the camera too far and going down because now you can't regain the altitude you were just at. (Even if you go back 5 feet to your original starting location, you keep losing altitude no matter which way you move unless you simply stop moving at all.)

The mount is a falling leaf from an oak tree late last fall and it's hard to feel gratuitous about it. Equal to Griffon with no dive, constantly falling and never going as far, however it allows you to stop in place. In addition to it being unable to land on ledges or get over them well.

It's a very painful realization.

You can make use of it in niche cases but otherwise you are likely to have a better alternative by switching to another mount.

--

If they want to improve it, there are two main suggestions.

1) Wall Cling: Press jump a second time to latch onto a wall, hold to charge; press it again to launch off the wall, hold it to continue to go up as per normal.

2) Make it a Griffon Alternative with Free Flight: If you are within your altitude dome that was predetermined when you jumped off your last surface, you should be able to move in any direction--down, backwards, up, left, right-- and not lose any altitude--until you begin moving further and further away from where you started. If you move back to where you started, you should be able to regain what you lost as you moved away (or at the very least your altitude should stop decreasing at all). Sure, you still lose altitude as you increase your distance away from your starting location, but at least you can move freely at this set height and you do not have to worry about the mount breaking the maps any worse than the Griffon does.

To be frank the Griffon breaks every map as it is, it just can't hit the skybox. I can get to Mordremoth's Dragon Chest location (unspawned) without having the META available, by using the Griffon and exploiting map collision oversights. Buffing the Skyscale should pose no threat as long as it keeps a decline in altitude.

Conditionally it would be nice to make it faster or go higher, but that's subjective. It would be nice if this mount was a useful alternative to the Griffon, but as for now it doesn't compare. It cannot go as far, it cannot climb walls as well due to the wall cling, and its too slow to use it by any enemies because you'll just be shot down to your death.

[Linken.6345]

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:I think at minimum they should add a mastery tier to allow the mount to use updrafts. Have the flight meter recharge in updrafts. It wouldn't infringe on gliding as you can't turn the mount off/on instantly like gliding. I do think they need to remove the forward movement cost on the meter.

Dont eating volatile magic alreaady refill the flight meter.

[Kidel.2057]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Kidel.2057 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Kidel.2057 said:[...]The fact that you're still going to use it if you're not in a hurry, or to show off, or for fun/variety, is not enough to justify the effort. That last part is, in case I need to specify, my personal opinion.

Well, it is still the only mount with which you can climb walls of

any

height, heigher than a Springer can jump. And Kaineng City has very high buildings. ;) So do the Kurzick with their Cathedrals :p , although I am certain those can be climbed with a Springer due to their design structure.

The Skyscale can't climb anything that a Springer can't.

Yes, it can with the 3rd Mastery! A Springer could never climb a skyscrapper, for instance (unless it is a modern design with platforms each couple of floors).

You probably misanderstood that mechanig. It's not limitless, watch the stream again.

@"Ganathar.4956"

I've tested the [C] stuff, and it still doesn't help. As you can see here https://imgur.com/a/9TMt1xj the Skyscale bounces off after grappling even without pressing (just releasing [W] makes it bounce backwards for some reason). I found almost impossible to go down on small ledges or even diagonal cliff edges, like the one in the screenshots. On small ledges it's eve harder, because the bounce from the auto-grab is huge (more than the size of the Skyscale itself).

As you can see from the third screenshot, that terrain is perfectly usable to walk (took me A LOT to be able to walk on it from that altitude, since the dude kept grabbing on it, and bouncing off to far to use [C]).

Thanks again for the tip, but the mount still needs some serious rework on the auto-grab.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Kidel.2057" said:You probably misanderstood that mechanig. It's not limitless, watch the stream again.

I never watched the whole thing, it was too boring (sorry). I kept fast-forwarding, thinking, "I will be able to test this in a couple of days anyway." Fat chance. ;)

Thanks for explaining. :) Didn't think it would be so close to the borrowed version...

[Kidel.2057]

No worries :)

More images to showcase the issue: https://imgur.com/a/27bekmJAs you can see it's impossible to go over that ledge with the Skyscale. Even if you release [W] it bounces off, and it's to far to land on it with [C].

Meanwhile the Springer can do it just fine.

Another issue I have is that the decrease in altitude if you try to move horizontally seems worse then gliding. This is not acceptable. Being able to fly almost in a straight line is not gamebreaking at all (I can even swap to Griffon in mid air, lol).

Masteries won't solve anything, this is NOT a legendary mount, it's inferior to Springer and Griffon.

[Sila.6748]

Increasing the speed that it descends at would be great too. Wouldn't replace the griffon's nose dive at all because that goes head down in a spiral, this goes straight down and just 'floats' down. But it floats down way too slowly and takes forever to get off of it JUST so i can re-mount up. Mounting and switching mounts from any other mount to each other works nearly flawlessly, especially if you have gliding or the bond of faith. But the skyscale is clunky with demounting as well.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Kidel.2057 said:Another issue I have is that the decrease in altitude if you try to move horizontally seems worse then gliding.

It depends on your view angle! :) As I posted earlier, if you look up, you will ascend (as far as possible); if you look down, you will descent; and if you look straight ahead, your descent is significantly decreased.

The problem is that no one will constantly look up when they fly. ;) It's a bit of a weird mechanic, albeit interesting.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:I think at minimum they should add a mastery tier to allow the mount to use updrafts. Have the flight meter recharge in updrafts. It wouldn't infringe on gliding as you can't turn the mount off/on instantly like gliding. I do think they need to remove the forward movement cost on the meter.

Dont eating volatile magic alreaady refill the flight meter.

Volatile magic doesn't exist on every map. Adding a updraft mastery would give them reason to add updrafts to PoF and core maps. It would make it an interesting mount to use on Bloodstone Fen.

[Kidel.2057]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Kidel.2057 said:Another issue I have is that

the decrease in altitude if you try to move horizontally seems worse then gliding

.

It depends on your view angle! :) As I posted earlier, if you look up, you will ascend (as far as possible); if you look down, you will descent; and if you look straight ahead, your descent is significantly decreased.

The problem is that no one will constantly look up when they fly. ;) It's a bit of a weird mechanic, albeit interesting.

No, it actually depends on your flight meter. If you are at max altitude, with the meter at 0 and you try to go forward, even if you keep looking up, your altitude will decrease a lot. You can use dash, but once your stamina is at 0 you'll go down even more (red flight meter).

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Kidel.2057" said:No, it actually depends on your flight meter. If you are at max altitude, with the meter at 0 and you try to go forward, even if you keep looking up, your altitude will decrease a lot. You can use dash, but once your stamina is at 0 you'll go down even more (red flight meter).

Okay, I will have to look at that next time, thanks. "Dash" would be Skill 1, right? You also have a Skill 2 for descent and Space bar for ascent. Anything I left out or overlooked?

[TheUnknown.5204]

The mount is a nerf to the griffon. (The griffon is so much easier to get than this)The griffon can flu and regen stamina but the skyscale mount has a limit of flight and you need to consume magic balls.Anet should've done so much better in my opinion.What I would like, Let there be fewer collections and make the mount be able to sprint and fly faster and make it act the same way as the griffon mount. (Let it regain stamina)

[Chasind.3128]

Allow it to regain altitude/ stamina when it latches as a mastery, slow down altitude drain as a mastery, quicker descent.

[Krew.3081]

I agree, the flight cap needs to GO!!!!! or make it fly longer... It's pretty simple..It's a DRAGON and can barely fly.

[Olterin Fire.5960]

I'd change the "looking pitch" angle to be more than what it is, maybe more like 45 degrees instead of the currently 30 (at best). This would also buff the dash.Furthermore, since it is a flight mount and not just a springer replacement (considering the amount of effort involved, it's much more comparable to the griffon), it needs help with more flight. I'm fine with an altitude cap, however the rate of the canopy descent could use some work (smaller angle) - as well as returning to the starting point refreshing the flight ceiling back to what it was. Basically, make it able to fly farther, and make it always able to return to the starting point (this has been my single largest issue with the rental mount so far). A fully mastered griffon can do it, why can the skyscale not (at least not without great effort)?

As far as the wall clinging goes: Here's a possibly novel and probably not doable idea - make a mastery that enables small movement along the cliff wall, maybe a dash, at the end of which the mount is "forced" into a non-flight posture for half a second. That way you should be able to hit those small ledges.

[CETheLucid.3964]

Just remember the Roller Beetle was pretty bad at launch before they tweaked it and buffed it. I think the Skyscale is in a pretty good place but the camera steering is absurdly sensitive.

You shouldn't lose sky juice for going in a straight line or side to side. If you don't angle it absolutely perfect, it figures you're trying to ascend and you lose sky juice very quickly.

You should really have to be looking up or pressing the ascend button for it to count as gaining altitude to lose skyjuice. If they fixed that I think it would feel a lot better to use.

Though conversely I hope they don't overtune it and we end up on the opposite end of the problem where you have to have the camera angled entirely under your Skyscale to ascend...

It's almost there. I'm confident they'll get it right.

ETA: I'd agree with a buff to the sky juice uptime. I understand why it has to be a mechanic but at present even with Bond of Vigor, there just isn't much vertical airtime that it gains. Maybe the final mastery alleviates that a bit.

[Healix.5819]

@Kidel.2057 said:No, it actually depends on your flight meter. If you are at max altitude, with the meter at 0 and you try to go forward, even if you keep looking up, your altitude will decrease a lot. You can use dash, but once your stamina is at 0 you'll go down even more (red flight meter).

How much flight energy you're using is dependent on the angle you're flying at. Running out of energy will make it descend slightly faster (120/s) than if you were to fly at a slight downward angle that costs nothing (110/s). For comparison, gliding descends at 112/s and the gryphon descends at 172/s while gliding.

Also, if you have a problem with the grab, don't come at it head on - side strafe or backup into position.

[Kidel.2057]

@Healix.5819 said:

@"Kidel.2057" said:No, it actually depends on your flight meter. If you are at max altitude, with the meter at 0 and you try to go forward, even if you keep looking up, your altitude will decrease

a lot

. You can use dash, but once your stamina is at 0 you'll go down even more (red flight meter).

How much flight energy you're using is dependent on the angle you're flying at. Running out of energy will make it descend slightly faster (120/s) than if you were to fly at a slight downward angle that costs nothing (110/s).I don't know where your measurements come from, but, as explained by the devs, the altitude and your horizontal movement at max altitude is controlled by a virtual "canopy" that is shown visually by the flight meter. You can either try to keep max altitude while going forward or move alongside the virtual canopy, you can't decrease your altitude slower than that.~~So either you messed up your calculations (again, I have no Idea on how you took those), or a dev messed up the canopy system, that is intended to work as I just described. ~~

EDIT: I got the problem. You're talking about speed, I'm talking about angle and reach. I don't really care about the velocity of the descent, but the places you can reach from a certain altitude. The gliding distance of the Skyscale is terrible. I don't really care if you go there by flapping at max eight or by free falling.

For comparison, gliding descends at 112/s and the gryphon descends at 172/s while gliding.Again, not sure about your measurements, but the Griffon can flap its wings infinitely to gain altitude, and it can basically go in a straight line. I have multiple videos, but I'm sure it's not needed, right? We can all agree that Griffon > gliding by a lot. You can't rule out the wing flaps since it's the main use/purpose/mechanic of the Griffon.

EDIT: let me clarify. I understand now that you were talking about speed. I'm talking about reach.

And by your own measurements you're basically confirming my point, that Skyscale is either equal or worse than gliding in horizontal movement, and we already established that is by design equal or worse than Springer in vertical movement.This is simply unacceptable given the collection required and the rarity/prestige of the mount.

The mount is already slow, there is no need to make it crappy.

Also, if you have a problem with the grab, don't come at it head on - side strafe or backup into position.I'm not even going to address this.You're basically telling "get used to this". I'm not claiming I can't live with that, I'm claiming we should not live with that.

[LucianDK.8615]

Sounds like people here is trying to make the skyscale a replacement for the griffon, which its not. Its just a situational mount. From my experiences and what I understand of the mechanics, it will mainly be useful for ascending flat horizontal surfaces that is far too high for the springer to jump.