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Is Soulbeast the new DH?


witcher.3197

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I keep saying this. SLB is extremely easy to deal with if you avoid his 3 skills. Yes he can deal good burst damage but this is the only viable thing in this spec. And when someone can avoid it, either by LOS, dodge, block, interupt, stun, daze, knockdown, the SLB is super easy target. Good players deal with it super easy which makes it a l2p issue, and only this. Until ANET buff the dmg sustain of SLB, it won't find good spot in competitive matches.

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To be honest, any ranger using longbow can be easily dealt with by not letting them kite all day. If anything, other ranger weapons are too strong (except offhand dagger and shortbow), especially greatsword. Pets still need their passive cc removed. Compensate by buffing core pets.

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Its doesnt matter where it is OP.If it is a problem then it needs to be fixed.

„Get good“ does not solve the problem because even if a person climbs the ladder, the number of people in each devision stays the same.

The highest number of players are in silver/gold.This will never change.

A problem there effects the highest number of players and therefor has highest priority of fixing.

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shortly: Soulbeast outclass DH as a roamer.I won´t go too deep at the materia, cause it would take a lot of time. but here a little input:

DH is good at:

  • "Zoning" (means controll the position of players esp if they got no stabi)
  • it has the second strongest duell build (the best still FB if you dont play him full support)
  • he has normally all his defences that can be used for his team too (if not get fokused). means at least little more support then most roamers

His buildoptions are (that are efficiency enough):

  • burst
  • full trap (works till p1. Most players over p1 can handle that)
  • Full tank/duellist

Soulbeast is good at:

  • unblock (what btw. means aegis get´s lost without any effects, like heal after block and so on^^)
  • he is one of the best roamers for duo point (cause his burst, mobillity, duell potential, sustain are at all high. For a 3 Point roamer, he has not enouth support options for his team, esp for helping on downstate fights, disengages)

his Buildoptions are (that are efficiency enough):

  • roamer (basic lb builds)
  • burst (axe for teamfights or more yolo lb)
  • hybrid
  • full duellist

thats why Soulbeast outclass DH on:

  • roaming
  • duelling vs most classes (if DH dont play a full duell build, but then he is slow and has less impact at the match)

DH has only a better 1v1 situation against mesmers, cause of "Test of Faith" + "Spear of Justice" with his standard roam build.

So, burst gets outclassed by soulbeast and tank/duellist by FB (or faster duellists cause you need to be the better rotader then) and the yolo-trapper by DE, FA-ele, Powermes if we look at pvp... on wvw, well you got the easiest afk farm build :)

Maybe someday he will be used on teamfights, cause if a necro corrupt boons and dh hold enermies on your aoes, this gona hurt...

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There is a major difference: beating dh was about individual player skill and the two classes that had a losing match up had superior mobility. Beating soulbeast actually requires you to play one of a handful build as soulbeast wipes the floor with the remaining builds and has superior mobility to most of them.Soulbeast might be weak in organized play, where everyone plays the same builds but it’s a completely different story in ranked queues (even higher tiers) where a variety of builds are played. It’s not at the very top, but still better than the majority of builds. Dh, on the other hand, was (and still is) also complete garbage in higher tier ranked queues.

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@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Its doesnt matter where it is OP.If it is a problem then it needs to be fixed.

„Get good“ does not solve the problem because even if a person climbs the ladder, the number of people in each devision stays the same.

The highest number of players are in silver/gold.This will never change.

A problem there effects the highest number of players and therefor has highest priority of fixing.

So the game should be balanced around the least competitive part of the community? In a (supposedly) competitive game mode?

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@Vithzerai.3291 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Its doesnt matter where it is OP.If it is a problem then it needs to be fixed.

„Get good“ does not solve the problem because even if a person climbs the ladder, the number of people in each devision stays the same.

The highest number of players are in silver/gold.This will never change.

A problem there effects the highest number of players and therefor has highest priority of fixing.

So the game should be balanced around the least competitive part of the community? In a (supposedly) competitive game mode?

Every gamemode needs to be first Fun and second competitive.

The Fun part brings growth and the competitve part brings consistency.

If the Gamemode is not Fun for the majority of players ( silver/gold) it will simply not grow.

Getting new player in it has priority over everything else.

What you want it making the gamemode better for people already playing it.

What is ofc good but doing it only for them will kill the gamemode in the long run.

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@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Its doesnt matter where it is OP.If it is a problem then it needs to be fixed.

„Get good“ does not solve the problem because even if a person climbs the ladder, the number of people in each devision stays the same.

The highest number of players are in silver/gold.This will never change.

A problem there effects the highest number of players and therefor has highest priority of fixing.

So the game should be balanced around the least competitive part of the community? In a (supposedly) competitive game mode?

Every gamemode needs to be first Fun and second competitive.

The Fun part brings growth and the competitve part brings consistency.

If the Gamemode is not Fun for the majority of players ( silver/gold) it will simply not grow.

Getting new player in it has priority over everything else.

What you want it making the gamemode better for people already playing it.

What is ofc good but doing it only for them will kill the gamemode in the long run.

Like, I agree with your sentiment, 'course it should be fun. I have an issue with strong builds if they're very unintuitive to play with/against aswell, and while it may seem paradoxical, I just don't think you should balance around the lower levels of competition just because at that skill level they need less skill-dependant ways of dealing with an un-enjoyable mechanic/group of mechanics.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Vithzerai.3291" said:So the game should be balanced around the least competitive part of the community? In a (supposedly) competitive game mode?

it should be balanced around balance. one shots aren't balanced.

Cmon, don't be flippant, it's not a one-shot. (And if it ever is there are prerequisites that have to be met for it to be even remotely close to a one-shot, and it's not just pressing 2 buttons like everyone would have you believe.)Mesmer's have a more prominent 'One-shot' potential, and they sure as hell don't need a nerf. Anytime I've been one-shotted by a Mesmer, it's been 100% my own issue, I wasn't aware enough, I didn't manage my cooldowns well enough, or they simply waited for the right opportunity. Why is Soulbeast any different.

I'm starting to get a little irate with this argument of "You have to use your resources to stop the Soulbeast burst and that's unfair." As opposed to the fact that you don't when a warrior rushes you down, or any other dps class for that matter? If you're complaining that without a stunbreak/endurance for a dodge or stab that a Soulbeast can tear you apart in a couple of seconds, so can a Rev/Necro/Thief - etc. I suspect the issue is most people don't like the distance a Ranger can do it from, but almost every other class has access to ports, so their 'functional' distance is probably about the same.

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@Vithzerai.3291 said:

@Vithzerai.3291 said:Cmon, don't be flippant, it's not a one-shot.

you are either unaware or purposely being deceptive of the situation. there are one shots from stealth, and one shots from 2k range.

What is the one-shot you're perceiving, -exactly-? And in what scenario?I think he's talking about a meme glass cannon variant (there are screenshots in one of these threads) and pretending that's the meta.
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@"Vithzerai.3291" said:I have an issue with strong builds if they're very unintuitive to play with/against aswell, and while it may seem paradoxical, I just don't think you should balance around the lower levels of competition just because at that skill level they need less skill-dependant ways of dealing with an un-enjoyable mechanic/group of mechanics.You shouldn't balance around mediocre players but you should design around them if that makes sense. If certain classes/mechanics are very unfun at the level where the majority of players is at, then something should be changed (e.g. dh, turret engi and other "pet builds"). However, other aspects should be brought up so that the specialization stays viable at higher levels (which is where they often fail, e.g. dh).

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@witcher.3197 said:A trivial thing that nobody plays at high tier games, but all the silver 2 players are flooding the forums crying for it to be nerfed.

This is absolutely false. Soul beast is fully viable at higher ranks, with multiple viable setups. As other notes there are several soul beast players in the top 100, and it does see play in AT as well (but not as popular).

And regardless the design that allows damage of 30k in under 3 secs needs to go.

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@witcher.3197 said:A trivial thing that nobody plays at high tier games, but all the silver 2 players are flooding the forums crying for it to be nerfed.

Interesting.That's the same excuse defense Mirage mains made.

@Vithzerai.3291 said:I'm starting to get a little irate with this argument of "You have to use your resources to stop the Soulbeast burst and that's unfair."

Interesting.That's the same excuse defense Warrior mains made when Zerker got reworked.

Don't mind me. Just-

@Vithzerai.3291 said:

Cmon, don't be flippant, it's not a one-shot. (And if it ever is there are prerequisites that have to be met for it to be even remotely close to a one-shot, and it's not just pressing 2 buttons like everyone would have you believe.)

coughs in deadeye main

If it does significant amounts of potentially untelegraphed damage, or allows you to outheal focused dps indefinitely without having to disengage from a point, it needs to go apparently. Powermes burst next.

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@dronte.3416 said:

@witcher.3197 said:A trivial thing that nobody plays at high tier games, but all the silver 2 players are flooding the forums crying for it to be nerfed.Quite a few people play soulbeast in top100 EU.. Obviously for AT-s, it's less efficient

what do you mean by 'quite a few'?

There are a 'number' of highly skilled Rangers in top tier play.But they do not have N E A R L Y the representation other classes have because they aren't facerolly spam classesa part of the meta.

Come on over to the Ranger forums if you'd like a civil conversation

@otto.5684 said:

@witcher.3197 said:A trivial thing that nobody plays at high tier games, but all the silver 2 players are flooding the forums crying for it to be nerfed.

This is absolutely false. Soul beast is fully viable at higher ranks, with multiple viable setups. As other notes there are several soul beast players in the top 100, and it does see play in AT as well (but not as popular).

And regardless the design that allows damage of 30k in under 3 secs needs to go.

There are all kinds of 'cheese' in this game. And most of it is meta. Most of it, no one talks about.Dinna fasch yerself. It's a shame you and 'Ben' aren't besties.You could convince him to buff mesmer, warrior, necro, scrapper and nerf Soulbeast so you can really ham it up in silver.

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@witcher.3197 said:A trivial thing that nobody plays at high tier games, but all the silver 2 players are flooding the forums crying for it to be nerfed.

First: Sic' em! soulbeast is not OP indeed. It's kind of viable, like ele builds, but it gets hardcountered by some very dominant classes currently.

Also, the problem is not the Sic' em! burst. It is the burst from extreme range and high mobility to disengage. The same was kind of valid for DE: You saw the burst, you dodged it, turned around - and the enemy is 1200+ far away (or stealthing for 10 seconds). Now there are some classes who can deal with this (thief, rev, mesmers) using ports, being quick and stuff. Others have basically no means to punish someone who just completely failed their burst. I am mainly speaking as an ele player here.

This is why ranged burst is kind of problematic. Power mesmers, revs and thieves usually have to go into close combat for a full burst. Other classes have a medium range like FA ele. And then there are some classes who can fail their burst, turn around and literally walk away.

That is not OP - especially not in times of the aforementioned strong counters -, but it is extremely frustrating for certain classes and compositions. This is why the build can work in ranked, but certainly not in mATs.

I want to mention though: In times of insane AoE pressure (Scourge, Spellbreaker, Yolosmith), burst from close up has become a magnitude more risky than during core and even HoT. This is why thief has such a hard time, for example, getting eaten by randomly spammed AoEs. And it can make ranged burst necessary - it is a kind of powercreep, high close range AoE needs ranged burst as a means of applying burst at all. They should change both, or certain specs will counter others so hard they become unplayable (the condition/cleansing powercreep is exactly the same issue).

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@Vithzerai.3291 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Its doesnt matter where it is OP.If it is a problem then it needs to be fixed.

„Get good“ does not solve the problem because even if a person climbs the ladder, the number of people in each devision stays the same.

The highest number of players are in silver/gold.This will never change.

A problem there effects the highest number of players and therefor has highest priority of fixing.

So the game should be balanced around the least competitive part of the community? In a (supposedly) competitive game mode?

Every gamemode needs to be first Fun and second competitive.

The Fun part brings growth and the competitve part brings consistency.

If the Gamemode is not Fun for the majority of players ( silver/gold) it will simply not grow.

Getting new player in it has priority over everything else.

What you want it making the gamemode better for people already playing it.

What is ofc good but doing it only for them will kill the gamemode in the long run.

Like, I agree with your sentiment, 'course it should be fun. I have an issue with strong builds if they're very unintuitive to play with/against aswell, and while it may seem paradoxical, I just don't think you should balance around the lower levels of competition just because at that skill level they need less skill-dependant ways of dealing with an un-enjoyable mechanic/group of mechanics.

...Thats the way the community wants things balanced though. As was seen by a year worth of nerf threads for mesmer. That's how Anet has been balancing, and I dont see them stopping because people want them to think about their choices or admit they made a mistake and revise those.

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