Conditions

[Phantom.5389]

Why most folks that don't even PvP/PVE come to the PvP or PVE forums is because... WvW is trash tier forum and you barely get any response. We cried for months about ghost thief meta and the moment someone decided to cheese a PVE boss with the exact same build... it got fixed the next day after the video was posted on the PVE forum.For those who don't know...

As for conditions being easy mode. I would say they are indeed easier you only need to invest in Dire/Trailblazer gear to be effective (those who say you need precision are not really frank or maybe they try to hide some fact? The % dmg increase from precision or expertise is minimal in a Player versus player environment (the fights are too short for expertise to count and most proc build only need 20% base crit chance to keep traits uptime). Oh wait... Anet banned those tanky sets and banned a few sigils/runes because they were too strong for PvP players...So maybe this is the reason we get this debate again and again because both community talks based on their perspective. PvP players speak about the nerfed condition builds while WvW players talk about the optimal conditions builds.

WvW has been a joke since forever. We once made Anet ban Firework from WvW because it was overpowered (no really, people complained about it being griefing... we just wanted to expose how dumb the playstyle was and we got cut off? really?). Anet decided to ban firework instead of working on balancing the few broken condition builds that still exist as of today (super tanky, high dmg output and easy getaway... basically low risk super high reward builds). Hell a condi thief got more effective hp (toughness + health pool) than a warrior using zerker (zerker stats not the elite spec) while it kill at basically the same speed.For those who don't know the video from the roamer who got firework banned from WvW...

And yet, easy mode condition build are still among the best roaming build in WvW... got to admit roaming scene is pretty much dead since Anet ignored it for so long...For easy peezy fights just copy paste one of the many condi builds

I miss the golden age of GW2 roaming where we had some good quality roamers

(Also conversation at 5:35 on this video is spot on)

Is condition OP in PVP? I would say it is currently being kept in check by everyone running what I call anti-condition builds (mostly builds with heavy emphasis on condi clear while you see almost no offensive utility being used).

[babazhook.6805]

Those that continue to advance the claim "only one stat needed" in condition builds continue to ignore the fact that a significant portion of said builds damage comes from RAW power damage.

Again the poorest performing power AA in the Thief kit is p/x yet a condition build wearing only dire will still do more damage with a single shot from the power component then from the bleed it gives up until the third + tick. Precision does not boost damage in a condition build just because of the on Crit condition apps. It boosts on every hit that crits. Certainly not to the extent of a raw power build with high ferocity , but a single shadowstrike as exmple in a base power condition build that crits will hit for more damage power wise then multiple bleed stacks.

Damage output of carrion/hybrid type builds is significantly higher then pure condition and the fact that the person in Dire or TB facing said build has higher toughness is meaningless against the Condition damage of said hybrid.

The lack of soldiers use in power builds demonstrates clearly that the person able to pump out damage faster with higher bursts will generally defeat builds sacrificing damage for armor. The bulk of damage mitigation is STILL avoidance, be it blocks or dodges and this applies to Conditions as well as power. I still maintain that far too many power builds ignore those mitigation measures when facing condition builds because they feel they can burst out their own damage faster and can EAT said condition damage.

One reason condition builds "play easier" is the opponents they face make it easier for those condition builds. If a power build is going to mindlessly swing at a thief using DB over him , then there no reason for said thief to switch up to any other attack. The ability of that DB thief to apply those conditions drops significantly when an enemy player takes active avoidance measures. That they do not does not translate into condition builds as being OP.

There might be specific builds where the application of conditions too much in too short a period of time. These are best addresseds on a case by case basis.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Lord Velar.1509 said:So I take it everyone only wants one way to deal damage, alrighty then

with the gw1 skills struture u had more than one damage type, the gw2 problem is that Anet wanted to make a simple system that turned out to be a mess hard to fix.u had:->conditions for pressure and spike targets-> hexes/curses for damage and defbuffing-> elemental damage(note some skills would improve or change your weapons to elemental damage as in condi like fire ,chill, shock or would reduce the effect from those elements)-> phisical damage (melee and range with no cleave spam besides dervish scythe)

Btw boons are on the same boat...

This imo is organization and sorting, wich gw2 is lacking....

[Stand The Wall.6987]

if anet were to nerf condis, I think a much more reasonable approach would be to introduce hard caps to the amount of condis a person can get. anet thought it would be a good idea to go ahead and throw the condi change (that allows more condis to stack, which was originally meant for pve I think) into pvp and wvw. I think it turned out alright-ish for pvp, but its completely broken in wvw zerg fights. I think that they should've done some large scale testing before they rolled out the change since it was so massive.

[Soothsayer.9206]

@Odokuro.5049 said:You want to know my opinions on how condition damage should be changed?

1. Make vitality a counter stat to condition damage received (Like toughness is vs. power.)
2. Lower base condition damage and make it so conditions can not critically hit w/o proper investment into precision.
3. Make LoS a thing, meaning, if you can't see them(stealth doesn't apply) and they're a fair distance away, conditions lose their potency/duration.
4. Remove stat combinations like Dire/Trailblazers from the game entirely, or tone down the amount of toughness/vitality they give.

Just a few ideas.

Since this is not the first time I have seen this (point 2), and just so that you know, conditions don't critically hit. Tthis is taken directly from the Wiki page on damage: "Condition damage. This damage is inflicted primarily by conditions, does not crit and is not mitigated by the target's armor."

Here's the link to "damage"

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

In short, TBH, so far, all the arguments made against condition damage are the same that have been made since the beginning of complaining about condition damage. I have to agree with other posters who postulate and argue that people are used to direct damage as main source of damage, with conditions as a secondary source of damage as being the main problem against conditions in general. Otherwise, conditions are meant to kill your opponent and have to be accounted for in gameplay - it's by game design. They have to hit like direct damage and are subject to everything but toughness, and I think weakness - BUT have a variety of ways, passively and actively (even most heals have some condi removal, even some that are AOE ) of totally negating them forcing them to be reapplied. It's not spam, it's design and takes just as much effort (sometimes more, try getting clones/phantasms [main source of Mesmer damage] to hit consistently with all the passive and active defenses. Otherwise, there's really nothing else meaningful to add.

[Windler.4815]

@drkn.3429 said:I'm sorry, but you suggest a very convoluted solution to an issue that isn't even especially problematic. Not at this point, at least.

Uhhh... burn guards, condi necros, and condi thieves are cancer in pvp right now. Burn guards can shit out 15+ stacks on burning with zero tell. Thieve can evade 3/4 of the time while shitting out condis, etc. There's zero effort to that game play. PvP is in the dumps right now. This condi meta bs has gone on long enough. Tone them down and bring power builds back into the fold. There's almost zero build diversity. Like in everything is the world. The level of diversity in the game equals how balance/healthy the game is. Right now... it's sick as fuck.

[Windler.4815]

@Unholy Pillager.3791 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:Useless comment, no offense.Everybody, which includes condi users, can admit that conditions need to be balanced.

Game changed Since core game but was not followed as it should have been.We think spvp was unbalanced Pre hot, but we miss the pre hot pvp now.Spvp is left to itself, but this is not a reason to deny it.

But ofc if you don't want to discuss about it be my guest and feel free to leave.

Those are some powerful rose tinted glasses you have. You really don't remember DS Cele Eles? You know,

literally invulnerable

against any condition build and most power builds? Did you forget that they had to limit how many players of a given profession can be together on a PvP team, because teams were stacking 4 Elementalists and a Thief and beating much more highly skilled opposing teams who weren't stacking?

I'm not saying that things are perfect now, but they're certainly better than the pre-nerf Tempest/Chrono bunker meta, and arguably better than the pre-HoT Cele DS Ele meta where conditions, even fear and immobilize, were rendered completely and utterly useless by just one single trait. The current meta is certainly better than that one from a standpoint of conditions versus power, since at least now, there are viable (meta) builds for each.

Name one?! Tell me a meta power build that's in current use... There isn't. All meta builds are condi.

[phokus.8934]

A serious look into condition cleansing priority needs to happen. If I have a stack of vulnerability with 9 stacks of poison and condi clear removes the vulnerability, that's a problem.

[Phantom.5389]

@babazhook.6805 said:Those that continue to advance the claim "only one stat needed" in condition builds continue to ignore the fact that a significant portion of said builds damage comes from RAW power damage.

Again the poorest performing power AA in the Thief kit is p/x yet a condition build wearing only dire will still do more damage with a single shot from the power component then from the bleed it gives up until the third + tick. Precision does not boost damage in a condition build just because of the on Crit condition apps. It boosts on every hit that crits. Certainly not to the extent of a raw power build with high ferocity , but a single shadowstrike as exmple in a base power condition build that crits will hit for more damage power wise then multiple bleed stacks.

Damage output of carrion/hybrid type builds is significantly higher then pure condition and the fact that the person in Dire or TB facing said build has higher toughness is meaningless against the Condition damage of said hybrid.

The lack of soldiers use in power builds demonstrates clearly that the person able to pump out damage faster with higher bursts will generally defeat builds sacrificing damage for armor. The bulk of damage mitigation is STILL avoidance, be it blocks or dodges and this applies to Conditions as well as power. I still maintain that far too many power builds ignore those mitigation measures when facing condition builds because they feel they can burst out their own damage faster and can EAT said condition damage.

One reason condition builds "play easier" is the opponents they face make it easier for those condition builds. If a power build is going to mindlessly swing at a thief using DB over him , then there no reason for said thief to switch up to any other attack. The ability of that DB thief to apply those conditions drops significantly when an enemy player takes active avoidance measures. That they do not does not translate into condition builds as being OP.

There might be specific builds where the application of conditions too much in too short a period of time. These are best addresseds on a case by case basis.

I never said that offensive conditions sets (carrion, viper, etc) doest not deal higher damage than TB/Dire. It is just that the % dmg increase is not worth the risk added. Since you can perfectly burst someone down even with trailblazer/Dire, why go for extra damage when you get get about a 50% extra tankiness (effective HP). players vs players encounter doesn't need the ''highest damage possible'' what you need is optimal build to win the fight. Is the DPS upgrade worth the loss of that much tankiness? Simply no unless you go for a speed run on a PVE event or some shit.

If Anet decided to allow TB/Dire sets along with runes/sigils that were previously banned in PvP (prior to the recent runes/sigils rework). I would bet 500$ that you would see a lot more conditions builds and this forum would go crazy ... this discussion would not even take place since folks who only PvP would realise how ridiculous some builds can get with such stats/sigils/runes.

Hell. It is still possible to kill people without even using weapons as a conditions user (we now use Siege crate deployment box instead of firework... it is a bit less show-off but it does get the point across)

Maybe POF will change things up (truly doubt it).

[babazhook.6805]

@Phantom.5389 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Those that continue to advance the claim "only one stat needed" in condition builds continue to ignore the fact that a significant portion of said builds damage comes from RAW power damage.

Again the poorest performing power AA in the Thief kit is p/x yet a condition build wearing only dire will still do more damage with a single shot from the power component then from the bleed it gives up until the third + tick. Precision does not boost damage in a condition build just because of the on Crit condition apps. It boosts on every hit that crits. Certainly not to the extent of a raw power build with high ferocity , but a single shadowstrike as exmple in a base power condition build that crits will hit for more damage power wise then multiple bleed stacks.

Damage output of carrion/hybrid type builds is significantly higher then pure condition and the fact that the person in Dire or TB facing said build has higher toughness is meaningless against the Condition damage of said hybrid.

The lack of soldiers use in power builds demonstrates clearly that the person able to pump out damage faster with higher bursts will generally defeat builds sacrificing damage for armor. The bulk of damage mitigation is STILL avoidance, be it blocks or dodges and this applies to Conditions as well as power. I still maintain that far too many power builds ignore those mitigation measures when facing condition builds because they feel they can burst out their own damage faster and can EAT said condition damage.

One reason condition builds "play easier" is the opponents they face make it easier for those condition builds. If a power build is going to mindlessly swing at a thief using DB over him , then there no reason for said thief to switch up to any other attack. The ability of that DB thief to apply those conditions drops significantly when an enemy player takes active avoidance measures. That they do not does not translate into condition builds as being OP.

There might be specific builds where the application of conditions too much in too short a period of time. These are best addresseds on a case by case basis.

I never said that offensive conditions sets (carrion, viper, etc) doest not deal higher damage than TB/Dire. It is just that the % dmg increase is not worth the risk added. Since you can perfectly burst someone down even with trailblazer/Dire, why go for extra damage when you get get about a 50% extra tankiness (effective HP). players vs players encounter doesn't need the ''highest damage possible'' what you need is optimal build to win the fight. Is the DPS upgrade worth the loss of that much tankiness? Simply no unless you go for a speed run on a PVE event or some kitten.

If Anet decided to allow TB/Dire sets along with runes/sigils that were previously banned in PvP (prior to the recent runes/sigils rework). I would bet 500$ that you would see a lot more conditions builds and this forum would go crazy ... this discussion would not even take place since folks who only PvP would realise how ridiculous some builds can get with such stats/sigils/runes.

kitten. It is still possible to kill people without even using weapons as a conditions user (we now use Siege crate deployment box instead of firework... it is a bit less show-off but it does get the point across)

Maybe POF will change things up (truly doubt it).

While I speak to WvW the same would translate to pVP.

Given I play a carrion build on a thief, I can assure you that dropping dire is worth it for that added damage. I am not going to speak to other classes given I tend to play thief first and foremost but given my thief uses OTHER avodidance measures for damage JUST AS I WOULD using a power thief against a power build , the Dire adds little (TB is another story but that fact contradicts only one stat needed meme). On THIS existing built the added raw damage from the Carrion is significantly higher. Indeed a single attack from P/x auto in such a build powr wise will do more damage then all the bleed off that attack running its full duration. (and P/x weapon has a very POOR power component in the number 1 slot. This difference is magnified yet more in other sets)

In fact with DE rollout, I will be shifting over more builds to hybrid using the Griever stat option. This will boost damage significantly. I can assure you getting 3k+ raw damage on a single atack while giving up little from a condition damage perspective will be more then worth it and will not be an insignificant percentage boost. With griever I have already theorycrafted ~1400 condition , 2200 power with 70+ percent crit rate at 200 percent added damage. Obviously the numbers will change when translated to PvP but the basic mechanics remain.

[Ten.2617]

Core Guardians aoe burns 8k per second.Core Necros aoe corrupts 5 boons per foe at 600 radius every 10s.Waiting for Path of Conditions with that Scourge and Firebrand.

Solution:1 - Remove expertise status and precision affects cond duration according ferocity.2 - Make vitality affects cond dmg like toughness/armor affects power dmg.3 - Make clease, convert and corrupt be a game mechanic like stealth, hard of access for mostly builds.

Or

For now, nerf condi application rate. Starting for burn, torment and bleed.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Phantom.5389 said:Why most folks that don't even PvP/PVE come to the PvP or PVE forums is because... WvW is trash tier forum and you barely get any response. We cried for months about ghost thief meta and the moment someone decided to cheese a PVE boss with the exact same build... it got fixed the next day after the video was posted on the PVE forum.For those who don't know...

As for conditions being easy mode. I would say they are indeed easier you only need to invest in Dire/Trailblazer gear to be effective (those who say you need precision are not really frank or maybe they try to hide some fact? The % dmg increase from precision or expertise is minimal in a Player versus player environment (the fights are too short for expertise to count and most proc build only need 20% base crit chance to keep traits uptime). Oh wait... Anet banned those tanky sets and banned a few sigils/runes because they were too strong for PvP players...So maybe this is the reason we get this debate again and again because both community talks based on their perspective. PvP players speak about the nerfed condition builds while WvW players talk about the optimal conditions builds.

WvW has been a joke since forever. We once made Anet ban Firework from WvW because it was overpowered (no really, people complained about it being griefing... we just wanted to expose how kitten the playstyle was and we got cut off? really?). Anet decided to ban firework instead of working on balancing the few broken condition builds that still exist as of today (super tanky, high dmg output and easy getaway... basically low risk super high reward builds). kitten a condi thief got more effective hp (toughness + health pool) than a warrior using zerker (zerker stats not the elite spec) while it kill at basically the same speed.For those who don't know the video from the roamer who got firework banned from WvW...

And yet, easy mode condition build are still among the best roaming build in WvW... got to admit roaming scene is pretty much dead since Anet ignored it for so long...For easy peezy fights just copy paste one of the many condi builds

I miss the golden age of GW2 roaming where we had some good quality roamers

(Also conversation at 5:35 on this video is spot on)

Is condition OP in PVP? I would say it is currently being kept in check by everyone running what I call anti-condition builds (mostly builds with heavy emphasis on condi clear while you see almost no offensive utility being used).

Bandito was an exceptionally good roamer, especially when he hit the tracks with Scarecrow.

[Chorazin.4107]

They are just poorly implemented, there is no cleansing priority, they tick whilst people have invulns up, they scale poorly etc etc. Maybe Anets idea of being invulnerable is different to everyone else on the planet. They need to do an in depth look/pass at the condi clears classes have access to and the speed at which certain builds can re-apply condis.

The scaling is terrible. In a larger fight if you play well you might be able to sustain for a bit vs two power players until help arrives. If they play well with a key interrupt or good play they will drop you. It seems with condis it's all a battle of condi clear cooldown timers vs condi application. And these applications come from just random autos, blocks, dodges, just walking over an invisible trap, breathing, etc, play takes a backseat. You will be getting condi spammed, that is a guarantee. And with two people applying them it quickly becomes overwhelming with your long cd cleanses vs the speed of application. One dodge roll for a condi teef can provide something like 2bleed stacks, a torment stack and 6seconds worth of cripple in cover conditions.

You should absolutely be able to play condi and have condi builds be successful. Some things could really use some toning down as is however.

[Aeolus.3615]

As i stated before ANet tough makign everythib boot stacking or condi stacking would be a good decision to make game less effort for the developers, but turns out the game got in reallt worse state.

Anet wants gw2 conditions to be the conditions+hexes of the gw1 but stacked...wich take out all the effort and balance cause they are simply awfull due the pve mentality and how classes are designed for the "pve playstyle feel".

Gw1 pvp was good cause we had conditions, oh boy several of them, but we had Hexes that would ignore armor, to play conditions one could play alone for pressure targets and monks, but alone conditions alone would not be the easy kill like they are the way ANet made them spamable and easy to play on some classes to help the unskilled players(like most gw2 gimmicks are ment to be used..due the gap between gimmick and non gimmick).

On gw1 we had very good designed skill system, that makes gw2 very shameful and uninteresting, we had armor ignoring damage skills, and hexes.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor-ignoring_damage some were hexes some were melee skillshttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hex_spellhttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_type

this is what gw2 needs at least a bit of it, to tone down the easy condi spam, and make it more team spike required...

[Lord Velar.1509]

@Windler.4815 said:

@drkn.3429 said:I'm sorry, but you suggest a very convoluted solution to an issue that isn't even especially problematic. Not at this point, at least.

Uhhh... burn guards, condi necros, and condi thieves are cancer in pvp right now. Burn guards can kitten out 15+ stacks on burning with zero tell. Thieve can evade 3/4 of the time while kitten out condis, etc. There's zero effort to that game play. PvP is in the dumps right now. This condi meta bs has gone on long enough. Tone them down and bring power builds back into the fold. There's almost zero build diversity. Like in everything is the world. The level of diversity in the game equals how balance/healthy the game is. Right now... it's sick as kitten.

Ive sat here in game and in the forums and have told people how to beat my

Condi thiefBurn GuardandBleed necros

Do you know what usually happens?

These same people laugh at me as if I were a joke, yet these very people later complain about my builds later on

All 3 of my condi builds are more than capable of pulling anywhere from 300k-almost 700k in damage depending on how I'm playing that day, my second to last match on my burn guard I pulled 640k+ damage with 22 kills and 2 deaths

Ive said how to beat my burn guard hundreds of times, yet only a few have listened

Ive said how to beat condi thief both s/d and p/d

Ive said how to defeat my mmr bleed and condi shroud necros

They all are extremely easy to take down and out cleanse, ive faced plenty of people with builds whose countered all 3 with ease

You ignore our advice, yet feel the need to complain about it later

Condi builds are double edged swords and have exploitable weaknesses

Ive since stopped telling people how to beat those builds, now you either learn or keep complaining and dying to them

Condis further from op than people think it is, especially when its not aoe

[Omcrazy.4756]

@Lord Velar.1509 said:

@Windler.4815 said:

@drkn.3429 said:I'm sorry, but you suggest a very convoluted solution to an issue that isn't even especially problematic. Not at this point, at least.

Uhhh... burn guards, condi necros, and condi thieves are cancer in pvp right now. Burn guards can kitten out 15+ stacks on burning with zero tell. Thieve can evade 3/4 of the time while kitten out condis, etc. There's zero effort to that game play. PvP is in the dumps right now. This condi meta bs has gone on long enough. Tone them down and bring power builds back into the fold. There's almost zero build diversity. Like in everything is the world. The level of diversity in the game equals how balance/healthy the game is. Right now... it's sick as kitten.

Ive sat here in game and in the forums and have told people how to beat my

Condi thiefBurn GuardandBleed necros

Do you know what usually happens?

These same people laugh at me as if I were a joke, yet these very people later complain about my builds later on

All 3 of my condi builds are more than capable of pulling anywhere from 300k-almost 700k in damage depending on how I'm playing that day, my second to last match on my burn guard I pulled 640k+ damage with 22 kills and 2 deaths

Ive said how to beat my burn guard hundreds of times, yet only a few have listened

Ive said how to beat condi thief both s/d and p/d

Ive said how to defeat my mmr bleed and condi shroud necros

They all are extremely easy to take down and out cleanse, ive faced plenty of people with builds whose countered all 3 with ease

You ignore our advice, yet feel the need to complain about it later

Condi builds are double edged swords and have exploitable weaknesses

Ive since stopped telling people how to beat those builds, now you either learn or keep complaining and dying to them

Condis further from op than people think it is, especially when its not aoe

They just don't want to have to account for conditions when building their spec or actually fighting.

[Lord Velar.1509]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Phantom.5389 said:Why most folks that don't even PvP/PVE come to the PvP or PVE forums is because... WvW is trash tier forum and you barely get any response. We cried for months about ghost thief meta and the moment someone decided to cheese a PVE boss with the exact same build... it got fixed the next day after the video was posted on the PVE forum.For those who don't know...

As for conditions being easy mode. I would say they are indeed easier you only need to invest in Dire/Trailblazer gear to be effective (those who say you need precision are not really frank or maybe they try to hide some fact? The % dmg increase from precision or expertise is minimal in a Player versus player environment (the fights are too short for expertise to count and most proc build only need 20% base crit chance to keep traits uptime). Oh wait... Anet banned those tanky sets and banned a few sigils/runes because they were too strong for PvP players...So maybe this is the reason we get this debate again and again because both community talks based on their perspective. PvP players speak about the nerfed condition builds while WvW players talk about the optimal conditions builds.

WvW has been a joke since forever. We once made Anet ban Firework from WvW because it was overpowered (no really, people complained about it being griefing... we just wanted to expose how kitten the playstyle was and we got cut off? really?). Anet decided to ban firework instead of working on balancing the few broken condition builds that still exist as of today (super tanky, high dmg output and easy getaway... basically low risk super high reward builds). kitten a condi thief got more effective hp (toughness + health pool) than a warrior using zerker (zerker stats not the elite spec) while it kill at basically the same speed.For those who don't know the video from the roamer who got firework banned from WvW...

And yet, easy mode condition build are still among the best roaming build in WvW... got to admit roaming scene is pretty much dead since Anet ignored it for so long...For easy peezy fights just copy paste one of the many condi builds

I miss the golden age of GW2 roaming where we had some good quality roamers

(Also conversation at 5:35 on this video is spot on)

Is condition OP in PVP? I would say it is currently being kept in check by everyone running what I call anti-condition builds (mostly builds with heavy emphasis on condi clear while you see almost no offensive utility being used).

Bandito was an exceptionally good roamer, especially when he hit the tracks with Scarecrow.

That's the warriors fault for choosing the beserker amulet, tf

Of course a condi thief is gonna have more health than a zerker warrior, the condi thief was smart enough to equip an amulet that boosted his health

So what was your point there? Also, warriors have way better defenses all while maintaining high damage out than thieves do. Last time I checked, thieves don't have stability, they also don't have any invuln periods either.

Soooo what now?

"omg condi is op in wvw"

But I bet youre perfectly fien with 11k crits though, this is the type of shit that makes me consider the community stupid

EVERYTHING has the potential to hit 20x harder in wvw than they do in spvp since its based off of your gear, these same builds youre complaining about get crushed in spvp

Your entire comment made no sense to me....at all

And even then, you still defeat the builds the same way regardless of if its spvp or wvw. This is why your post makes absolutely no sense to me. You need to come up with better excuses than that if youre going to change anyones mind on why condis op. And condi thief should be the last example you use since condi mesmers even worst

Id rather take damage from a condi that reduces my healing than take constant damage from an ability that doubles the damage if I use an ability without cleansing it first

If you say otherwise......you're probably the problem

[Phantom.5389]

@Lord Velar.1509 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Phantom.5389 said:Why most folks that don't even PvP/PVE come to the PvP or PVE forums is because... WvW is trash tier forum and you barely get any response. We cried for months about ghost thief meta and the moment someone decided to cheese a PVE boss with the exact same build... it got fixed the next day after the video was posted on the PVE forum.For those who don't know...

As for conditions being easy mode. I would say they are indeed easier you only need to invest in Dire/Trailblazer gear to be effective (those who say you need precision are not really frank or maybe they try to hide some fact? The % dmg increase from precision or expertise is minimal in a Player versus player environment (the fights are too short for expertise to count and most proc build only need 20% base crit chance to keep traits uptime). Oh wait... Anet banned those tanky sets and banned a few sigils/runes because they were too strong for PvP players...So maybe this is the reason we get this debate again and again because both community talks based on their perspective. PvP players speak about the nerfed condition builds while WvW players talk about the optimal conditions builds.

WvW has been a joke since forever. We once made Anet ban Firework from WvW because it was overpowered (no really, people complained about it being griefing... we just wanted to expose how kitten the playstyle was and we got cut off? really?). Anet decided to ban firework instead of working on balancing the few broken condition builds that still exist as of today (super tanky, high dmg output and easy getaway... basically low risk super high reward builds). kitten a condi thief got more effective hp (toughness + health pool) than a warrior using zerker (zerker stats not the elite spec) while it kill at basically the same speed.For those who don't know the video from the roamer who got firework banned from WvW...

And yet, easy mode condition build are still among the best roaming build in WvW... got to admit roaming scene is pretty much dead since Anet ignored it for so long...For easy peezy fights just copy paste one of the many condi builds

I miss the golden age of GW2 roaming where we had some good quality roamers

(Also conversation at 5:35 on this video is spot on)

Is condition OP in PVP? I would say it is currently being kept in check by everyone running what I call anti-condition builds (mostly builds with heavy emphasis on condi clear while you see almost no offensive utility being used).

Bandito was an exceptionally good roamer, especially when he hit the tracks with Scarecrow.

That's the warriors fault for choosing the beserker amulet, tf

Of course a condi thief is gonna have more health than a zerker warrior, the condi thief was smart enough to equip an amulet that boosted his health

So what was your point there? Also, warriors have way better defenses all while maintaining high damage out than thieves do. Last time I checked, thieves don't have stability, they also don't have any invuln periods either.

Soooo what now?

"omg condi is op in wvw"

But I bet youre perfectly fien with 11k crits though, this is the type of kitten that makes me consider the community stupid

EVERYTHING has the potential to hit 20x harder in wvw than they do in spvp since its based off of your gear, these same builds youre complaining about get crushed in spvp

Your entire comment made no sense to me....at all

And even then, you still defeat the builds the same way regardless of if its spvp or wvw. This is why your post makes absolutely no sense to me. You need to come up with better excuses than that if youre going to change anyones mind on why condis op. And condi thief should be the last example you use since condi mesmers even worst

Id rather take damage from a condi that reduces my healing than take constant damage from an ability that doubles the damage if I use an ability without cleansing it first

If you say otherwise......you're probably the problem

You probably did not watch the videos...

You realise that the condi player linked in the video (not the PVE or El Bandito trolling around with Firework, but the one where a guy actually use a weapon) is pretty bad? . That was the point of my post.... He made so many errors, he let himself get backstabbed by a glass thief many times yet he still survive despite that because his build allow him to tank while doing high damage...same with eating 3bar eviscerate in the face (by the way, he was only in exotic gear with poor man infusions).

If you put a good player with such a build, it becomes a real joke. It is why we pushed that joke further with firework and Anet response was to ban firework instead of trying to balance the few low risk high reward builds (they took the easy way out).

Unless you tell me that you did not watch those videos. In that case, I suggest you do.

You say those same builds get crushed in SPvP... are you blind? You don't have access to TB/Dire in SPvP!!!! They banned those gear set from it because it is unbalanced. Read the discussion where I clearly state that SPvP got the mild version of condition builds.

You are the problem mate.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Lord Velar.1509 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Phantom.5389 said:Why most folks that don't even PvP/PVE come to the PvP or PVE forums is because... WvW is trash tier forum and you barely get any response. We cried for months about ghost thief meta and the moment someone decided to cheese a PVE boss with the exact same build... it got fixed the next day after the video was posted on the PVE forum.For those who don't know...

As for conditions being easy mode. I would say they are indeed easier you only need to invest in Dire/Trailblazer gear to be effective (those who say you need precision are not really frank or maybe they try to hide some fact? The % dmg increase from precision or expertise is minimal in a Player versus player environment (the fights are too short for expertise to count and most proc build only need 20% base crit chance to keep traits uptime). Oh wait... Anet banned those tanky sets and banned a few sigils/runes because they were too strong for PvP players...So maybe this is the reason we get this debate again and again because both community talks based on their perspective. PvP players speak about the nerfed condition builds while WvW players talk about the optimal conditions builds.

WvW has been a joke since forever. We once made Anet ban Firework from WvW because it was overpowered (no really, people complained about it being griefing... we just wanted to expose how kitten the playstyle was and we got cut off? really?). Anet decided to ban firework instead of working on balancing the few broken condition builds that still exist as of today (super tanky, high dmg output and easy getaway... basically low risk super high reward builds). kitten a condi thief got more effective hp (toughness + health pool) than a warrior using zerker (zerker stats not the elite spec) while it kill at basically the same speed.For those who don't know the video from the roamer who got firework banned from WvW...

And yet, easy mode condition build are still among the best roaming build in WvW... got to admit roaming scene is pretty much dead since Anet ignored it for so long...For easy peezy fights just copy paste one of the many condi builds

I miss the golden age of GW2 roaming where we had some good quality roamers

(Also conversation at 5:35 on this video is spot on)

Is condition OP in PVP? I would say it is currently being kept in check by everyone running what I call anti-condition builds (mostly builds with heavy emphasis on condi clear while you see almost no offensive utility being used).

Bandito was an exceptionally good roamer, especially when he hit the tracks with Scarecrow.

That's the warriors fault for choosing the beserker amulet, tf

Of course a condi thief is gonna have more health than a zerker warrior, the condi thief was smart enough to equip an amulet that boosted his health

So what was your point there? Also, warriors have way better defenses all while maintaining high damage out than thieves do. Last time I checked, thieves don't have stability, they also don't have any invuln periods either.

Soooo what now?

"omg condi is op in wvw"

But I bet youre perfectly fien with 11k crits though, this is the type of kitten that makes me consider the community stupid

EVERYTHING has the potential to hit 20x harder in wvw than they do in spvp since its based off of your gear, these same builds youre complaining about get crushed in spvp

Your entire comment made no sense to me....at all

And even then, you still defeat the builds the same way regardless of if its spvp or wvw. This is why your post makes absolutely no sense to me. You need to come up with better excuses than that if youre going to change anyones mind on why condis op. And condi thief should be the last example you use since condi mesmers even worst

Id rather take damage from a condi that reduces my healing than take constant damage from an ability that doubles the damage if I use an ability without cleansing it first

If you say otherwise......you're probably the problem

You appear to be very tilted over something... All I said was Bandito and Crow were exceptionally good roamers. I don't know what conversation or argument you were having in your head but I was just missing 2 really good roamers from the good days of WvW, one of which was my guild leader for a while.

[Silv.9207]

sPvP and WvW are two totally different things, don't put them both in the same thread.

Atm conditions are good but not the best choice for 7/9 classes, expecially at high levels.

To fight conditions you need Knowledge of this game, Knowledge of the condition mechanic and the clean mechanic and Make a build able to fight everything, not only Power damage.If you don't want to adapt you can't pretend to nerf something only because you don't want to learn and change your build.

If you do a build to fight condition you lose against power, if you make a build to fight power you lose against conditions, that's how that game work and one of the reasons Power builds are better than condition builds. Everyone is feared by conditions and build to clean everything while power damage is free to kill you.

Make balanced builds able to fight both the damage sources and live in peace.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

@Windler.4815 said:

@Unholy Pillager.3791 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:Useless comment, no offense.Everybody, which includes condi users, can admit that conditions need to be balanced.

Game changed Since core game but was not followed as it should have been.We think spvp was unbalanced Pre hot, but we miss the pre hot pvp now.Spvp is left to itself, but this is not a reason to deny it.

But ofc if you don't want to discuss about it be my guest and feel free to leave.

Those are some powerful rose tinted glasses you have. You really don't remember DS Cele Eles? You know,

literally invulnerable

against any condition build and most power builds? Did you forget that they had to limit how many players of a given profession can be together on a PvP team, because teams were stacking 4 Elementalists and a Thief and beating much more highly skilled opposing teams who weren't stacking?

I'm not saying that things are perfect now, but they're certainly better than the pre-nerf Tempest/Chrono bunker meta, and arguably better than the pre-HoT Cele DS Ele meta where conditions, even fear and immobilize, were rendered completely and utterly useless by just one single trait. The current meta is certainly better than that one from a standpoint of conditions versus power, since at least now, there are viable (meta) builds for each.

Name one?! Tell me a meta power build that's in current use... There isn't. All meta builds are condi.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

For sPvP, the meta power builds are:Daredevil, Marauder with D/PMeditrapper DH, again with MarauderMender's Bunker DruidMarauder's Shiro HeraldMender's ScrapperMender's Tempest

For condi/hybrid:Sage's Chrono (hybrid)Corruption Reaper (also hybrid, but leaning toward condi)

Look at the 'great' builds as well, of which only 2/6 have amulets with condition damage. I'll admit that WvW is condi heavy, but that's one game mode out of three.