Guild Wars 2 should have harder content.

[Yamazuki.6073]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:Look at all of these people supporting the leechers and afkers lol. Maybe we should all just afk in GW2. Why play the game when you can just afk for rewards while others work for you? That is the mentality of these people. The problem with the GW2 community is that they want rewards but they are not willing to put forward the effort required to get them. They would rather let other people do the work for them. They have time to complain but no time to put in effort.

Raids and fractals are the hard content. So if you are asking for harder raids/fractals, then sure, by all means.But open world is supposed to be casual / solo / i'm just randomly running almost naked and wanna hit things friendly.

P.S.: Let's not forget that the game was (maybe even is) marketed as casual friendly.

Being casual friendly doesn't mean having most of the game being completed with no gear. GW2 isn't even the easiest of the MMORPGs, when people say GW2 is casual friendly compared to other MMORPGs they are talking about the absence of both level cap increases and gear cycles. Most MMORPGs see level cap increases or gear cycles (or both). For GW2, you could stop playing between major updates (2 years) and your gear remains the same tier, where as other games you would find yourself very far behind due to how often gear cycles, and/or level increases, over that 2 years. Constant gear cycles aren't friendly to people with long hour jobs, this makes GW2 a good alternative as grinding here is for the purpose of unlocking cosmetics, conveniences, and achievement points/titles; especially considering how easy Ascended gear is to get and Legendary is equal in stats.

I don't know why people think casual is synonymous with being terrible at games. Some people are casual in the sense they can't play several hours a day each day, and being "hard core" play time wise doesn't make someone good.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:No, these changes are made because people vote with their feet. The hardcore content was simply

not popular enough

for Anet to continue to invest in it at the cost of ther more casual part of community.Here's the problem with a more casual audience: They're not loyal veterans of a franchise, veterans that contributes greatly in supporting the game long term.Depends on your understanding of the word "casual"Hint: whales in pve games (as opposed to competitive ones) generally lean towards more casual gameplay style on average. There's also a big group of players that dedicate a lot of time to games, but whose playstyles aren't very hardcore either.

Notice, how most of the people that represent the casual crowd were there from the very beginning.

Also, hardcores aren't all that loyal either. Or rather, they are loyal only when catered to a level practically impossible in a non-hardcore aimed game. Otherwise, they are well known to ragequit and abandon ship if they feel the content for them is aven a little bit lacking in quality and quantity.

Basically, that loyalty is very maintenance-heavy.

I don't agree that hardcore content wasn't popular. One of the main complains when the game came out was the lack of challenging end content. Its implementation was just pretty underwhelming at the beginning of the game (dungeon are more or less all stack and dps, typically). The aetherblade path was greatly appreciated however. Fractals are kind of that, but it doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should.

...see what i mean?

[kratan.4619]

I do not need a game to challenge me, real life has plenty of that and I do that there, I just need the game to allow me to relax which this game allows me to do plenty. Raids are over there if you want something a bit harder, leave open world alone thank you.

[Aigleborgne.2981]

@archmagus.7249 said:It used to be difficult, but people figured out the mechanics behind the events to the point where they're consistently passing the events. Just look at Octovine and dragon stand meta. They used to be considered really difficult, but now players know what they're doing and it's not considered difficult.

Also, how much harder do you want than raids and high end fractals?

Not only that, difficulty has been reduced just before release, at least in open world.I remember play that event with centaur's camp in Queensdale, defending or capturing. We were 4 or 5 and centaurs came in big numbers, it was difficult! You needed to help your allies, and even then, it wasn't always enough.All these events were severly toned down before release because players complained a lot...Now what? That same event with 1 or 2 players, we face 1 or 2 centaurs each attack! Come on, seriously? Even an average player could take 3-4 centaurs alone. It is so pathetic that those soldiers could eventually defend the camp on their own.

Hopefully, there are still some events that remain a challenge in core tyria. But they are rare.

Challenging open world was great, and I am only speaking about events, something anyone can just avoid if not interested. Now, it is just a rush to damage something before others kill it. Most events are a joke and you just do it for map bonuses.

[Obtena.7952]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:No, these changes are made because people vote with their feet. The hardcore content was simply

not popular enough

for Anet to continue to invest in it at the cost of ther more casual part of community.Here's the problem with a more casual audience: They're not loyal veterans of a franchise, veterans that contributes greatly in supporting the game long term. It's not a "bad" thing per say, but they need to keep their expectations in check.

Wow ... just no. Nothing about a casual player suggests they aren't loyal to the franchise or the game. Being casual is more about a person's values.

[kharmin.7683]

@"Yamazuki.6073" said:I don't know why people think casual is synonymous with being terrible at games. Some people are casual in the sense they can't play several hours a day each day, and being "hard core" play time wise doesn't make someone good.Thank you for pointing this out.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:No, these changes are made because people vote with their feet. The hardcore content was simply

not popular enough

for Anet to continue to invest in it at the cost of ther more casual part of community.Here's the problem with a more casual audience: They're not loyal veterans of a franchise, veterans that contributes greatly in supporting the game long term. It's not a "bad" thing per say, but they need to keep their expectations in check.I don't agree that hardcore content wasn't popular. One of the main complains when the game came out was the lack of challenging end content. Its implementation was just pretty underwhelming at the beginning of the game (dungeon are more or less all stack and dps, typically). The aetherblade path was greatly appreciated however. Fractals are kind of that, but it doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should.

I don't think it's fair to equate a 'loyal' customer with one who wants difficult content aka 'hardcore'. The two are exclusive. I'm ashamed to admit how many hours a week I play this game, but I still consider myself a casual, in that I do T4 dailies, but have no interest in CMs, no interest in Raiding, not an AP hunter, and while I do have a few legendaries, they are crafted over time, gradually, even though I know I could spend more time and gold to make them faster.

A player interested in difficult content is just as likely to ditch the game for perceived greener pastures as someone who just enjoys leveling new characters in open world, RP, playing the TP, or the myriad of other things that one can do in an MMO.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Notice, how most of the people that represent the casual crowd were there from the very beginning.From the very beginning there wasn't nearly as much constant complain about the difficulty. I'll say it again: Today Anet would not dare making the clock tower. I'm still baffled about the eater of soul nerf. A fight that required rethinking a build. Yeah, that was too much apparently. Complains have gone crazier and crazier over the years, the past 2 weeks have been particularly baffling.If the casual crowd was there since the beginning, it's certainly not the same crowd as the one we have today.

@"kratan.4619" said:I do not need a game to challenge me, real life has plenty of that and I do that there, I just need the game to allow me to relax which this game allows me to do plenty. Raids are over there if you want something a bit harder, leave open world alone thank you.Raids is a minuscule part of the game and I wholeheartedly disagree that it should be the only content to actually make you think of your builds intelligently. Builds crafting is an important part of the gameplay (as with any MMO or RPG) and should play a major part in the game."Open world" is no excuse to neuter an important part of the gameplay at every possible corner.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:No, these changes are made because people vote with their feet. The hardcore content was simply

not popular enough

for Anet to continue to invest in it at the cost of ther more casual part of community.Here's the problem with a more casual audience: They're not loyal veterans of a franchise, veterans that contributes greatly in supporting the game long term. It's not a "bad" thing per say, but they need to keep their expectations in check.

Wow ... just no. Nothing about a casual player suggests they aren't loyal to the franchise or the game. Being casual is more about a person's values.Quoting this post but it's meant to answer other people as well... Casual means "not regular or permanent". They don't play "regularly". Again, nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is typically coming with the excuse 'i do not have the time to' to get the game to adapt to their needs. That does not show loyalty to me.If you spend hundreds of hours into the game, you're not a casual. It's got nothing to do with whether you like challenging content or not.

[Krizek.5672]

@"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:We already have plenty of ways to casually play the game with barely any effort. Is there not a way where you guys can make some parts of the game more difficult? I understand that your main audience is not hardcore, but please leave some hardcore content for your hardcore fans that have been with you for a while. That is all that we ask for. Legendaries are nice...but we prefer harder content. I would trade my existing Legendaries for difficult content.

I have better question. Why did you choose this game when from the beginning it was clear, that will be more focus on "casuals"?

[Ashen.2907]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... but what is their process for testing things? Nothing is a better testing ground than how it actually works. It's not about being proactive because IIRC, there isn't a test server with a full population to ensure the numbers are right. We have to recognize that WE are the test server.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere. I'm cognisant that ANET isn't Blizzard and doesn't have the same resources, and even with their PTR realm, very often a patch goes live with bugs and features that are obviously flawed.

But I'll refer to the example I gave already: It didn't take long for ANET to announce they were changing the time gating from 24hrs to 2hrs. They also quickly addressed the issue that XP was locked behind mastery points we couldn't get until after completing a lengthy and timegated collection. The community raised these issues within 24 hrs of the patch going live, and ANET obviously agreed with the objections.

So why didn't the devs think of that in the first place? I don't believe we as the player base are like the Skritt, and therefore have a collective intelligence that magnifies with our population.

And again, had they discussed the time gating as part of the sneak preview, do you not think the community reaction would have been identical? ANET could then have changed the time gate before releasing the patch, saving the players a good deal of frustration.

It seems like the devs think they are doing us a favor by keeping everything a secret and springing new content and features on us, but lately it seems that philosophy is doing more harm than good, as once these features go live, the players discover flaws that ANET then scrambles to fix - and I'm not talking specifically about bugs, but about design choices. In the meantime players can lose out on time and resources, and it fosters negative feelings - all of which is bad for business.

I don't have a solution, but I'm not going to pretend like I don't see a problem, and one that seems to manifest more and more of late.

I think this is where Anet has missed a step ... they forgot there was a content difficulty between 'scrub' and 'hard'. Nothing a casual player experiences prepares them for Fractals, Raids, Dungeons, etc... How they continue to fail to bridge that disconnect ... amazing.

So much this.

Well said.

[reddie.5861]

@ChronosCosmos.9450 said:We already have plenty of ways to casually play the game with barely any effort. Is there not a way where you guys can make some parts of the game more difficult? I understand that your main audience is not hardcore, but please leave some hardcore content for your hardcore fans that have been with you for a while. That is all that we ask for. Legendaries are nice...but we prefer harder content. I would trade my existing Legendaries for difficult content.

how do u make harder content when npc's are all braindead it will never be harder..if u want harder content u need open lvl cap and only way to lvl up is in a FFA pvp zone so u gonna haveto pvp for ur xp spots etc balabaal u still kill brainless npc's but u got annoying people ganking u or wanting to xp on same spot killing u etc.but hey that doesnt fit in gw picture so gw2 will always be the easy casual game.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:No, these changes are made because people vote with their feet. The hardcore content was simply

not popular enough

for Anet to continue to invest in it at the cost of ther more casual part of community.Here's the problem with a more casual audience: They're not loyal veterans of a franchise, veterans that contributes greatly in supporting the game long term. It's not a "bad" thing per say, but they need to keep their expectations in check.I don't agree that hardcore content wasn't popular. One of the main complains when the game came out was the lack of challenging end content. Its implementation was just pretty underwhelming at the beginning of the game (dungeon are more or less all stack and dps, typically). The aetherblade path was greatly appreciated however. Fractals are kind of that, but it doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should.

Unlike players, devs don't need to speculate about what's popular and what needs attention or not. They know what we do in game and how many of us are doing it, alongside a kittenload of other data. Game components may get a short-term spotlight, depending on the situation (like early HoT raids), but in the end, everything gets attention proportionate to player interest. In-game telemetry is a pretty neat tool like that.

[MrForz.1953]

"Hardcore", right. That word has been beaten to hell.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Personally I blame the lack of a proper tutorial. I wrote... a whole lot about this a lifetime ago. The short version is this: Guild Wars 2 operates differently from every other MMO on the market, and it doesn't tell you this. Because most players don't know how anything works, most players end up pretty feeble and incompetent.

For example, most MMOs make it so you're incapable and imbalanced without a group to carry you. A tank can't deal enough damage, a healer can't deal enough damage, and DPS can't survive long enough to function. But in GW2, you're fully capable at base stats, and you build yourself up for flavor. Most players don't know that you'll have no problem surviving in a full berserker or viper gear set, and they also don't know that it is objectively best to be a glass cannon in 95% of content.

Most MMOs assume that you'll sit there and spam DPS skills while the tank eats DPS and healers heal it away. In GW2, you're your own healer, and you'll have all the active defenses to keep yourself alive. This leads to players eating telegraphs, dying, then sitting at max range in PVT gear forever afraid of those scary enemies. Worst yet, players don't realize that their skills exist to fulfill a diversity of needs. So, for "DPS" they'll spam all of their utility skills.

Most MMOs inflate their game with a lot of grind, and gate everything behind gear tiers and strict levels. GW2 balances everything around exotics and expect you to experiment as you play through the game. Because of this, players will shut their mind off and watch TV while slowly grinding their way toward 80, assuming that this is how everything is meant to be. They get to level 80, walk into PoF or HoT, and then get flattened because they never figured out what a defiance bar is. Worst yet, players don't pick particular types of gear. They'll just wear whatever they find, so long as the number is higher. This leads to the infamous "RNG Build," which is a random mishmash of stats and rarities.

---

Little anecdote here: I ran Aetherpath on my deadeye a few weeks ago. I needed the tokens, and a pug group was forming. So, I joined, for loot and to lend my expertise. After taking way too much time with the oozes, we got to Sparki and Slick. For this fight, I decided to focus on Sparki. Everyone else... targeted slick. So it was sort of a 1v4 DPS race between us. By the time I had solo killed Sparki, Slick was at 40% health. I won, by a landslide.

For the average bystander, I must be the most terrifying thing in the world. I see players struggle and nearly lose against regular enemies, throwing every skill they have and barely scraping the health bar. Then I walk up and kill 3 of those enemies almost instantly. I wonder what exactly goes through their mind when they see me do this. Do they not recognize my skill? Do they get defensive at my performance? Do they assume there's some unobtainable magic behind my abilities?

[Obtena.7952]

@"Deihnyx.6318" said:

Wow ... just no. Nothing about a casual player suggests they aren't loyal to the franchise or the game. Being casual is more about a person's values.Quoting this post but it's meant to answer other people as well... Casual means "not regular or permanent". They don't play "regularly". Again, nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is typically coming with the excuse 'i do not have the time to' to get the game to adapt to their needs. That does not show loyalty to me.If you spend hundreds of hours into the game, you're not a casual. It's got nothing to do with whether you like challenging content or not.

OK but there is still nothing that correlates people that spend hundreds of hours in a game and how they supporting the game. Just playing isn't necessarily support. If we are going to talk about if GW2 needs harder content, we have to ask why. I mean, is harder content the best way to serve the people playing this game? it probably isn't.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@"Deihnyx.6318" said:Quoting this post but it's meant to answer other people as well... Casual means "not regular or permanent". They don't play "regularly". Again, nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is typically coming with the excuse 'i do not have the time to' to get the game to adapt to their needs. That does not show loyalty to me.If you spend hundreds of hours into the game, you're not a casual. It's got nothing to do with whether you like challenging content or not.

Wow, that's the worst way to see what a casual gamer is. Just because you're not putting "hundreds of hours" doesn't mean you're not dedicated to the game. That's literally saying that anyone who has less time to play the game (whether it be real life priorities or otherwise) are not dedicated fans which is absolutely wrong in every sense. Dedication doesn't always mean playing the game. Other people are dedicated through other means (creating art, lore stuff, music, etc.).

To say that you're not playing the game enough is not being dedicated is just wrong...

[Astralporing.1957]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Notice, how most of the people that represent the casual crowd were there from the very beginning.From the very beginning there wasn't nearly as much constant complain about the difficulty....yes. Because we didn't have raids and Fractal CMs in the game. We didn't have an expac being introduced with visibly higher open world difficulty either. There were much less things, difficulty-wise, to complain about

And if you don't remember, some of the difficulty was toned down between betas and launch. Also, complains about dungeons were very frequent.

I'll say it again: Today Anet would not dare making the clock tower. I'm still baffled about the eater of soul nerf. A fight that required rethinking a build. Yeah, that was too much apparently.In an instance where you couldn't change your build? Yes, it was.

Complains have gone crazier and crazier over the years, the past 2 weeks have been particularly baffling.If the casual crowd was there since the beginning, it's certainly not the same crowd as the one we have today.Nah, it's just your memory that is hazy. For one, you don't seem to remember, that the average difficulty of this game went up, not down.

"Open world" is no excuse to neuter an important part of the gameplay at every possible corner.Important to you. Not necessarily to others.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:No, these changes are made because people vote with their feet. The hardcore content was simply

not popular enough

for Anet to continue to invest in it at the cost of ther more casual part of community.Here's the problem with a more casual audience: They're not loyal veterans of a franchise, veterans that contributes greatly in supporting the game long term. It's not a "bad" thing per say, but they need to keep their expectations in check.

Wow ... just no. Nothing about a casual player suggests they aren't loyal to the franchise or the game. Being casual is more about a person's values.Quoting this post but it's meant to answer other people as well... Casual means "not regular or permanent". They don't play "regularly".Bullkitten. There are irregularly playing hardcores. There are regularly playing casuals with more playing time than hardcores.The main difference is not really the playing time, or "regularity" of play. It's the attitude. It's whether you are more serious or laid back about the game and the content.

Again, nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is typically coming with the excuse 'i do not have the time to' to get the game to adapt to their needs. That does not show loyalty to me.And yet here you are trying to get the game to adapt to

your

needs. Are you trying to tell me than when it's

you

that are doing it, it suddenly shows more loyalty than in case of your opponents? Shouldn't you rather do what you claim casuals should do, and, instead of complaining,

adapt to the game

?

If you spend hundreds of hours into the game, you're not a casual. It's got nothing to do with whether you like challenging content or not.By that definition you might find that (no matter how ridiculously it might sound) hardcore players do not necessarily like hardcore content at all. Because a lot of those with high playtimes truly do not like it.

Thus, if we follow your definition, not all hardcores are hardcore. And not all casuals are casual. So... perhaps, just maybe your definition is not all that good?

[Deihnyx.6318]

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@"Deihnyx.6318" said:Quoting this post but it's meant to answer other people as well... Casual means "not regular or permanent". They don't play "regularly". Again, nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is typically coming with the excuse 'i do not have the time to' to get the game to adapt to their needs. That does not show loyalty to me.If you spend hundreds of hours into the game, you're not a casual. It's got nothing to do with whether you like challenging content or not.

Wow, that's the worst way to see what a casual gamer is. Just because you're not putting "hundreds of hours" doesn't mean you're not dedicated to the game. That's literally saying that anyone who has less time to play the game (whether it be real life priorities or otherwise) are not dedicated fans which is absolutely wrong in every sense. Dedication doesn't always mean playing the game. Other people are dedicated through other means (creating art, lore stuff, music, etc.).

To say that you're not playing the game enough is not being dedicated is just wrong...

You can love the game, its universe and still casually play it. It doesn't mean that the game should constantly adapt to casual needs.Again. Let's have a retrospective of the past two weeks and non stop requests for making one end game collection simpler. It wasn't 'just' the timegate.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Nah, it's just your memory that is hazy. For one, you don't seem to remember, that the average difficulty of this game went up, not down.I've been playing guild wars since the very beginning of GW1, and I've rarely spent a month without looking at the forums. There's always been some complain here and there, but a lot of the "make it easier" complains started with PoF.My point about the clock tower is that Anet doesn't bother trying to include challenging content anymore. Well yeah, it stays in raids (which is also constantly attacked by people who want their easy mode). Other than that, where is the "middleground" challenge? please tell me, where and when did the difficulty go up? Is there -any- reward, collection outside of raids that is tied to challenging content? Did we get a CM for Krak like we got for Mordremoth? Do we get more CM for the new fractals?What happened to Caudecus in LS3 again?I mean sure it's probably my memory, but then please let me know what new content do you consider harder.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:And yet here you are trying to get the game to adapt to your needs. Are you trying to tell me than when it's you that are doing it, it suddenly shows more loyalty than in case of your opponents? Shouldn't you rather do what you claim casuals should do, and, instead of complaining, adapt to the game?To a degree yes, the hope of a thread like that is to put a voice out there. There's no denying that, however:

• By design, asking for an MMO to not take time is like... complaining about what makes an MMO an MMO. Timesink is in its DNA. However, asking for builds to serve in the gameplay is part of the core experience of an MMO.
• I do not make DEMANDS for Anet to change what was initially in place (if I was, I would basically be constantly asking for GW1.5). What I ask is for people to stop trying to get everything nerfed so the balance between casual content and more challenging content be respected, and to actually provide this "stepping stone" that some comments here claim Anet never tried to implement.

Also:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

"Open world" is no excuse to neuter an important part of the gameplay at every possible corner.Important to you. Not necessarily to others.It's kinda true both ways.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Thus, if we follow your definition, not all hardcores are hardcore. And not all casuals are casual. So... perhaps, just maybe your definition is not all that good?I mean, maybe google definition is wrong then?I understand that the definition of "casual" has somehow become "who likes it easy", maybe initially meant as an insult? That's definitely not what I meant then."Hardcore" player is also supposed to be the opposite of it, it's someone who is active, commited, dedicated. Meanwhile, "hardcore" content is content that requires dedication to beat.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:Quoting this post but it's meant to answer other people as well... Casual means "not regular or permanent". They don't play "regularly". Again, nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is typically coming with the excuse 'i do not have the time to' to get the game to adapt to their needs. That does not show loyalty to me.If you spend hundreds of hours into the game, you're not a casual. It's got nothing to do with whether you like challenging content or not.

Wow, that's the worst way to see what a casual gamer is. Just because you're not putting "hundreds of hours" doesn't mean you're not dedicated to the game. That's literally saying that anyone who has less time to play the game (whether it be real life priorities or otherwise) are not dedicated fans which is absolutely wrong in every sense. Dedication doesn't always mean playing the game. Other people are dedicated through other means (creating art, lore stuff, music, etc.).

To say that you're not playing the game enough is not being dedicated is just wrong...

You can love the game, its universe and still casually play it. It doesn't mean that the game should constantly adapt to casual needs.Again. Let's have a retrospective of the past two weeks and non stop requests for making one end game collection simpler. It wasn't 'just' the timegate.

Except that's exactly what this thread is imposing, but not for casuals, for the "hardcore" players. This thread is literally asking for the game to adapt to a "hardcore" group when this game was designed to be different to most MMOs in that it tries to balance itself to work with casual players.

The reasoning behind the Skyscale nerf was because ANet screwed up the design so badly that it caused a lot of people more time than expected. Hiding achievements so that we don't know information ahead of time shows how badly the Skyscale was handled when time came that materials were needed. That along with the original timegate was not a "hardcore" design, it was a flawed design under the guise of a difficulty.

ANet are great developers but they can screw up and Skyscale was the biggest example of a screwup, and proof is in the fact that they even went ahead and adjusted the timegate. It wasn't a demand, it was a feedback and they had literally zero reason to change timegate but they did anyway because they listen to the overwhelming majority

[Obtena.7952]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:Quoting this post but it's meant to answer other people as well... Casual means "not regular or permanent". They don't play "regularly". Again, nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is typically coming with the excuse 'i do not have the time to' to get the game to adapt to their needs. That does not show loyalty to me.If you spend hundreds of hours into the game, you're not a casual. It's got nothing to do with whether you like challenging content or not.

Wow, that's the worst way to see what a casual gamer is. Just because you're not putting "hundreds of hours" doesn't mean you're not dedicated to the game. That's literally saying that anyone who has less time to play the game (whether it be real life priorities or otherwise) are not dedicated fans which is absolutely wrong in every sense. Dedication doesn't always mean playing the game. Other people are dedicated through other means (creating art, lore stuff, music, etc.).

To say that you're not playing the game enough is not being dedicated is just wrong...

You can love the game, its universe and still casually play it. It doesn't mean that the game should constantly adapt to casual needs.Again. Let's have a retrospective of the past two weeks and non stop requests for making one end game collection simpler. It wasn't 'just' the timegate.

No, the game shouldn't comstantly adapt to casual needs because you can casually play it ... but if it's the casual demographic paying the bills, then you better HOPE Anet still constantly adapts it to casual needs.

[Clyan.1593]

We have raids and fractal cms for this. Making open world pve content harder would be devestating. Most players can't handle harder content, and so you'll find that 99% of that new harder content would be impossible to finish.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@Yamazuki.6073 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:Look at all of these people supporting the leechers and afkers lol. Maybe we should all just afk in GW2. Why play the game when you can just afk for rewards while others work for you? That is the mentality of these people. The problem with the GW2 community is that they want rewards but they are not willing to put forward the effort required to get them. They would rather let other people do the work for them. They have time to complain but no time to put in effort.

Raids and fractals are the hard content. So if you are asking for harder raids/fractals, then sure, by all means.But open world is supposed to be casual / solo / i'm just randomly running almost naked and wanna hit things friendly.

P.S.: Let's not forget that the game was (maybe even is) marketed as casual friendly.

Being casual friendly doesn't mean having most of the game being completed with no gear. GW2 isn't even the easiest of the MMORPGs, when people say GW2 is casual friendly compared to other MMORPGs they are talking about the absence of both level cap increases and gear cycles. Most MMORPGs see level cap increases or gear cycles (or both). For GW2, you could stop playing between major updates (2 years) and your gear remains the same tier, where as other games you would find yourself very far behind due to how often gear cycles, and/or level increases, over that 2 years. Constant gear cycles aren't friendly to people with long hour jobs, this makes GW2 a good alternative as grinding here is for the purpose of unlocking cosmetics, conveniences, and achievement points/titles; especially considering how easy Ascended gear is to get and Legendary is equal in stats.

I don't know why people think casual is synonymous with being terrible at games. Some people are casual in the sense they can't play several hours a day each day, and being "hard core" play time wise doesn't make someone good.

I don't think that casual is a synonymous at being terrible at games. Casual for me is mostly playing the game for relaxation and enjoyment.GW2 open world is actually pretty casual friendly. You can auto attack a boss; solo a champ (yes this can be considered casual too); wear anything you like and still contribute to events (even if only reviving / healing). And you can be casual even if you play 10+ hours.Now hard core for me is pretty much wanting to min/max everything and only running the most profitable dungeons/trains/raids.Then again just dropping two groups (casual, hard core) and expecting that everyone fits in just one of them is silly. One person can be casual when it comes to min/maxing gear and dungeons, but can be die hard achievement hunter.

P.S. On topic: Hard content (as in mechanics and gear requirements) should be designed around small groups (5, 10) instanced content.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Nah, it's just your memory that is hazy. For one, you don't seem to remember, that the average difficulty of this game went up, not down.I've been playing guild wars since the very beginning of GW1, and I've rarely spent a month without looking at the forums. There's always been some complain here and there, but a lot of the "make it easier" complains started with PoF....really? What about the whole HoT debacle for example, did it start only with PoF as well? Or is it that it's your memory that is faulty?Yes, some of those complains started with PoF. Specifically, those that were about PoF and post-PoF content. It doesn't mean that people liked this kind of content before or didn't complain about it before - they very much did. It's just that there was much less of it before HoT.

My point about the clock tower is that Anet doesn't bother trying to include challenging content anymore.Do you know why? It's because it is not met with a lot of enthusiasm. Why should they bother to introduce content when only a small part of community will like it (and even smaller part will like it and keep actively playing it)?I'm pretty sure, that if there were enough of hardcore players interested in this type of content, Anet would continue to make it. Apparently though, there

aren't

enough of interested players. There were never that many of them in the first place, and quite a lot of them ended up not being loyal enough when there was still some of the more difficult content in the game and left for greener pastures long ago.

Well yeah, it stays in raids (which is also constantly attacked by people who want their easy mode). Other than that, where is the "middleground" challenge? please tell me, where and when did the difficulty go up? Is there -any- reward, collection outside of raids that is tied to challenging content? Did we get a CM for Krak like we got for Mordremoth? Do we get more CM for the new fractals?No, because the community as a whole ended up not really liking this kind of content. Some people did, but there simply wasn't enough of them for Anet to sustain their original resource investment levels.

What happened to Caudecus in LS3 again?I mean sure it's probably my memory, but then please let me know what new content do you consider harder.If you haven't noticed, even though Pof is indeed easier on average than HoT, it's still more difficult (or, as i would put it, more

annoying

) than core. And LS4 maps are a higher difficulty still. Especially cc spam from mobs is really prevalent. Increase in aggro range can also be felt.You probably don't see it, because what you're after is much higher than that, but the difference does exist and is noticeable for others.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:And yet here you are trying to get the game to adapt to your needs. Are you trying to tell me than when it's you that are doing it, it suddenly shows more loyalty than in case of your opponents? Shouldn't you rather do what you claim casuals should do, and, instead of complaining, adapt to the game?To a degree yes, the hope of a thread like that is to put a voice out there. There's no denying that, however:

• By design, asking for an MMO to not take time is like... complaining about what makes an MMO an MMO. Timesink is in its DNA. However, asking for builds to serve in the gameplay is part of the core experience of an MMO.
• I do not make DEMANDS for Anet to change what was initially in place (if I was, I would basically be constantly asking for GW1.5). What I ask is for people to stop trying to get everything nerfed so the balance between casual content and more challenging content be respected, and to actually provide this "stepping stone" that some comments here claim Anet never tried to implement.You are trying to change likes and dislikes of a gaming community by posts alone. That never works. People you're speaking to simply do not like the same things that you do - the things you bring up as problems are not a problem for them. For them, they're a
  solution
  to a problem. Basically, you're getting angry over the fact that a majority of the game community doesn't share your values.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

"Open world" is no excuse to neuter an important part of the gameplay at every possible corner.Important to you. Not necessarily to others.It's kinda true both ways.Indeed. And ultimately it's for Anet to decide how much resources to devote to each group. And that won't be decided by which group is "more right" (because both approaches are equally subjective), but rather by the ingame population breakdown and the impact each of the groups have on the game

and on Anet's income

.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Thus, if we follow your definition, not all hardcores are hardcore. And not all casuals are casual. So... perhaps, just maybe your definition is not all that good?I mean, maybe google definition is wrong then?Which one? I've seen a dozen, all of them different from each other.

The point i was making that you're first associating the words "casual" and "hardcore" with the type of content played, and the type of content desired, and then suddenly insist on definition that has nothing to do with that (because it only concentrates on time played). If you want to use a certain definition, sure, go ahead, but at least try to be consistent with it.

If you don't know what i'm talking about, i'm refering to the part where you said that Anet should not cater to people wanting the content to be casual, because casual players are not dedicated and loyal. Do you not see how you suddenly switched from "casuals" - the people playing casual content, to "casuals" - those that do not play a lot, are not dedicated and not loyal, and then tried to do a handwaving in order for us to not notice that those two groups aren't the same groups?

I understand that the definition of "casual" has somehow become "who likes it easy", maybe initially meant as an insult? That's definitely not what I meant then."Hardcore" player is also supposed to be the opposite of it, it's someone who is active, commited, dedicated. Meanwhile, "hardcore" content is content that requires dedication to beat.I've seen enough of not very active, not very dedicated and definitely not loyal players that asked for this game's casual content to be burned to the ground and salted over, and for the game to concentrate on "real" content like raids and CMs to know that your definition is not very useful for this thread. The one that is most useful here is separating the players by the type of content they prefer. Which happens to have nothing to do with loyalty.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:No, these changes are made because people vote with their feet. The hardcore content was simply

not popular enough

for Anet to continue to invest in it at the cost of ther more casual part of community.Here's the problem with a more casual audience: They're not loyal veterans of a franchise, veterans that contributes greatly in supporting the game long term.Depends on your understanding of the word "casual"Hint: whales in pve games (as opposed to competitive ones) generally lean towards more casual gameplay style on average. There's also a big group of players that dedicate a lot of time to games, but whose playstyles aren't very hardcore either.

Notice, how most of the people that represent the casual crowd were there from the very beginning.

Also, hardcores aren't all that loyal either. Or rather, they are loyal only when catered to a level practically impossible in a non-hardcore aimed game. Otherwise, they are well known to ragequit and abandon ship if they feel the content for them is aven a little bit lacking in quality and quantity.

Basically, that loyalty is very maintenance-heavy.

I don't agree that hardcore content wasn't popular. One of the main complains when the game came out was the lack of challenging end content. Its implementation was just pretty underwhelming at the beginning of the game (dungeon are more or less all stack and dps, typically). The aetherblade path was greatly appreciated however. Fractals are kind of that, but it doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should.

...see what i mean?

I don't, its no secret anet puts out content slower than other mmos, its not black or white we dont either have content coming out to fast or to slowly theres an entire mid point that anet can improve upon.

This also isnt exclusive to challenging content (although that is suffering the most from this) every part of the game has seen less content compaired to previous years, from raids, fractals, pvp, and the ow.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

I keep wondering if players who are asking for harder open world, have ever played other MMOrpgs. GW2 is far from the easiest, in fact it's way above the average OW in MMOs.