Guild Wars 2 should have harder content.

[Stephane Lo Presti.7258]

Hi everyone,

As I see this thread developing and slowly going sideways, I'd like to share some words that I posted yesterday here:

I would like to comment generally on a few things to get everyone on the same page and help put this discussion on the right track. Note that if the discussion veers into back-and-forth exchanges and heated sub-discussions, it may be short-lived!

Discussing about the Guild Wars 2 community as a whole is always tricky, because each player has a partial view of it. Depending on what you read, what Guild Wars 2 content you play and who you play it with, you’ll see a particular slice of the global community. Case in point, we’re now on the forums and not everyone participates here (but a lot of people do read them), meaning that the picture you paint of the community is incomplete.

It’s normal and expected to express feedback, especially on the official Guild Wars 2 forum, but you have to be careful when you start generalizing. And that’s why we ask that everyone be respectful and stay on topic. It’s easy for things to get heated in forum discussions because of the differing opinions, as not every player plays Guild Wars 2 the same way you do or with the same group of people.

We try to maintain on the Guild Wars 2 forums a balance between leaving the door open for a lot of feedback and discussions, and preventing these discussions from devolving into aggressive or pointless exchanges. Ideally these discussions should further everyone’s understanding of each other’s viewpoint but we can’t enforce that!

Thanks everyone for taking this into consideration!

[Ashantara.8731]

Some complain it was too difficult, then ANet softens it down and others complain it was too easy. It is hard to find a proper middle ground.

The best solution would be the implementation of a Hard Mode, in combination with achievements and/or other rewards. That way, people who like it easy will have it easy, and others will have an additional challenge.

However, I don't think it needs to be more difficult than necessary as there is content other than story missions that do provide a proper challenge. Anything beyond that would not fit into this game (IMO).

[Obtena.7952]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:I keep wondering if players who are asking for harder open world, have ever played other MMOrpgs. GW2 is far from the easiest, in fact it's way above the average OW in MMOs.

Is that actually the case? Most MMO's are easier than GW2? What OW content in GW2 are you actually comparing here because core is a friggin joke, HoT can be considered rather hard but not impossible if you are willing to adjust to solve the problems you encounter. PoF is probably right-sized ... it can be hard but you can get around those hard parts if you know how to play your class and don't need to make major adjustments.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:I keep wondering if players who are asking for harder open world, have ever played other MMOrpgs. GW2 is far from the easiest, in fact it's way above the average OW in MMOs.

Is that actually the case? Most MMO's are easier than GW2? What OW content in GW2 are you actually comparing here because core is a friggin joke, HoT can be considered rather hard but not impossible if you are willing to adjust to solve the problems you encounter. PoF is probably right-sized ... it can be hard but you can get around those hard parts if you know how to play your class and don't need to make major adjustments.

Any max level open world area. I consider most of core to not be max level even with the scaling. Granted I can only comment on other games for the time period I was playing them. Off the top of my head, ESO, SWTOR, WoW, Neverwinter (pre cap increase) all had easier overworld content. That's not to say GW2 is hard mind you.

For me PoF difficulty is just right, no HP sponges and CC spam like LS3, just interesting mobs with cool mechanics.

[kharmin.7683]

@Ashantara.8731 said:Some complain it was too difficult, then ANet softens it down and others complain it was too easy. It is hard to find a proper middle ground.

The best solution would be the implementation of a Hard Mode, in combination with achievements and/or other rewards. That way, people who like it easy will have it easy, and others will have an additional challenge.

I think that this solution would split the player base and foster more elitism than raiding has done for GW2. My opinion, of course. I don't see that this would be in the game's (or Anet's) best interest.

[Ashantara.8731]

@kharmin.7683 said:I think that this solution would split the player base and foster more elitism than raiding has done for GW2. My opinion, of course. I don't see that this would be in the game's (or Anet's) best interest.

Hmm. It worked fine in GW1. ;) (Yes, I know, this isn't GW1.)

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

But, GW1 was mostly instances. No need to worry about 'splitting the playerbase'.

[Obtena.7952]

The answer is pretty obvious because it's already been solved by other games many times ... there needs to be a progression of content from 'the easiest' to 'the hardest'. GW2 doesn't do that ... at least not very well. That ensures that the casuals that are capable of hard content have fewer barriers to entering it. This leads to more people wanting hard content. This leads to Anet making that hard content. Casuals have NO desire to jump that chasm so it's up to Anet to bridge it and make it easy for them to cross it.

One of the things that people didn't get when the game first came out was that berating people who didn't excel at hard content kept them from crossing that chasm ... EVEN if Anet was to create easy ways to do it. That's OK IMO ... there is nothing in the rulebook that says elitist players can't cause their own extinction by crushing any chance casual players might try to cross over ... the game will still persist because as normal, it will target the people that play it.

IN otherwords ... Anet isn't the only one to blame if you think the game should have harder content. You can point that finger at the abusive tryhards that are exclusive to the extreme when teaming.

[kharmin.7683]

@Obtena.7952 said:The answer is pretty obvious because it's already been solved by other games many times ... there needs to be a progression of content from 'the easiest' to 'the hardest'. GW2 doesn't do that ... at least not very well. That ensures that the casuals that are capable of hard content have fewer barriers to entering it. This leads to more people wanting hard content. This leads to Anet making that hard content. Casuals have NO desire to jump that chasm so it's up to Anet to bridge it and make it easy for them to cross it.The insta-boost to level 80 didn't help matters either. Many new to GW2 players showed up and had no idea how the mechanics worked because they wanted to jump to the end-game content.

[Aeolus.3615]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The answer is pretty obvious because it's already been solved by other games many times ... there needs to be a progression of content from 'the easiest' to 'the hardest'. GW2 doesn't do that ... at least not very well. That ensures that the casuals that are capable of hard content have fewer barriers to entering it. This leads to more people wanting hard content. This leads to Anet making that hard content. Casuals have NO desire to jump that chasm so it's up to Anet to bridge it and make it easy for them to cross it.The insta-boost to level 80 didn't help matters either. Many new to GW2 players showed up and had no idea how the mechanics worked because they wanted to jump to the end-game content.

Even if they progress trough lvling would not be much of a difference.Game is still very basic in stack n spam and dodge some animations, it’s actually very basic, players don’t have much too learn, whatever game mode we are talking.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:I keep wondering if players who are asking for harder open world, have ever played other MMOrpgs. GW2 is far from the easiest, in fact it's way above the average OW in MMOs.

Is that actually the case? Most MMO's are easier than GW2? What OW content in GW2 are you actually comparing here because core is a friggin joke, HoT can be considered rather hard but not impossible if you are willing to adjust to solve the problems you encounter. PoF is probably right-sized ... it can be hard but you can get around those hard parts if you know how to play your class and don't need to make major adjustments.Consider, that in most MMOS you can trivially outgear OW content to the point that isn't possible in GW even on starting maps.

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:I think that this solution would split the player base and foster more elitism than raiding has done for GW2. My opinion, of course. I don't see that this would be in the game's (or Anet's) best interest.

Hmm. It worked fine in GW1. ;) (Yes, I know, this isn't GW1.)It didn't matter in GW1, because everything was split (instanced) anyway.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Hmm. It worked fine in GW1. ;) (Yes, I know, this isn't GW1.)It didn't matter in GW1, because everything was split (instanced) anyway.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I was talking about story missions only, not open world exploration.

[Excursion.9752]

Sounds like we need a tribulation mode for our open world content. Higher risk greater rewards.

[otto.5684]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:I keep wondering if players who are asking for harder open world, have ever played other MMOrpgs. GW2 is far from the easiest, in fact it's way above the average OW in MMOs.

Is that actually the case? Most MMO's are easier than GW2? What OW content in GW2 are you actually comparing here because core is a friggin joke, HoT can be considered rather hard but not impossible if you are willing to adjust to solve the problems you encounter. PoF is probably right-sized ... it can be hard but you can get around those hard parts if you know how to play your class and don't need to make major adjustments.

From what I have seen, yes GW2 OW is far more challenging and rewarding than most MMO. Primarily it was created with only open world in PvE and dungeons at its start.

Also, anything OW is easy when you have large player numbers. On smaller scale or solo things can be a bit challenging.

While I have issues with PoF and LWS4 maps. I do not think the issue is with difficulty.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

In regards to the OW difficulty of GW2, it is indeed harder that more generic MMOs out there.

And that's because GW2's OW has events that actually continue to reward players when they contribute to said events and these events are mostly adjusted to work with multiple people instead of an individual. Most of the OW content in GW2 usually tracks towards team effort with certain events being soloable due to their nature as being simple escorts or having NPCs that assist you but many of the events in GW2 usually require group effort.

Most MMOs out there (especially Free to Play ones) are generally geared towards a grind fest meaning that the mobs are adjusted to be soloable mostly with the ocassional difficult mob. Especially with games where the OW is designed as a levelling ground. Not a lot of MMOs have their OW designed to be event based with multiplayer in mind, they are mostly just there for the sake of grinding. GW2 deviates from that since there's many events going and some meta events get influenced by the effort made by the group on pre events.

Most MMOs tend to make raid/dungeons (or similar mechanics) to be their multiplayer content whilst leaving OW relatively single player but GW2 actually balances out OW by having the single player and multiplayer based mechanics added to it. So in general, GW2 OW is more difficult than most MMOs.

[aspirine.6852]

Well can we all establish that this is not about changing OW difficulty but adding challenging content for the hardcore players?Elite areas with great rewards like in GW1, but for most fun to do areas like DOA, The Deep and Urgoz. Slavers exile, and other hardcore dungeons should kinda do it.

[blambidy.3216]

I don't disagree with the topic however, I think the topic should be (More) harder content. To say there is none at all, is kind of biased. If say Gw2efficiency has 200k people signed up, and out of 200k people only 2% have killed dhuum cm. Since Anet said during POF release that they have 11 million accounts created, well out of 11 million accounts only 220,000 accounts have killed dhuum cm. That is a pretty low number to say that Anet hasn't developed some hardcore content within the game. All Anet has to do is develop more hardcore content within gw2.

Anet has done a fantastic buy2play design. Its just that Anet would need to develop more consistency in raids, raid cms, fractals, fractal cms. Its not that there isn't hardcore, its that there isn't enough. Or isn't a way to be rewarded in a repeated fashion besides fractal cms.

So lets ask what could Anet do to gw2 to make it so that people are not singled out?

Raids could get a hard mode, and give more loot then regular, and they can also give an easier mode for people to develop to get to the hard mode. Kind of like fractal tier 1s compared to tier 4s. 20-30 man raids, to give more versatility in builds/classes.

Story hard modes could be developed that way also, drop more loot and add more achievements/collections within it. Then again, make sure you can select the option so that all people can get through it.

Dungeons, could add a hard mode.

So I don't think Anet (doesn't) have hardcore. Its that there isn't enough. Since Anet has all devs in, there is a possibility that they will try something in the future. But it is up to them to how they want the community and game to be.

[archmagus.7249]

You could join one of the elitist guilds which focus on the hard content. They often go for speed runs, and test new builds for viability. Be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@OutOfOrder.3719 said:The new mount Skyscale is a perfect example of how entitled the Gw2 causal community is.

Oh no it takes me 7 days to obtain the final mount in the game. This is horrible, I have to complete the meta at least 7 different times on different days. Oh my god the world is going to end !!

Lemme guess, you didn't read what the issues were with Skyscale and just assumed everyone is begging.

They probably didn't read the OP either as it's about difficulty of content. Commenting on the community's reaction to a grindy collection is as off-topic as it gets.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@OutOfOrder.3719 said:The new mount Skyscale is a perfect example of how entitled the Gw2 causal community is.

Oh no it takes me 7 days to obtain the final mount in the game. This is horrible, I have to complete the meta at least 7 different times on different days. Oh my god the world is going to end !!

Lemme guess, you didn't read what the issues were with Skyscale and just assumed everyone is begging.

It would be remiss not to mention that they also relaxed the timegate in just over a week when it was brought to bear by the community, with several players already having obtained the mount beforehand.

Take from that what you will.

[Jimarius.2843]

Pssh I don't want a hardcore mode I want a dark souls mode

[zealex.9410]

I dojt care about ow, its ow youncant balance it (unless we can get cm versions of world bosses that are instanced and guilds can summon).

What i want to see is hardmode from gw1 come back. I believe lw balanced for 5mans would be a fun bit of content to play with friends and enhance the mmo experience.

(also gw1 woc hm was hella fun to do with a couple friends, id like more of that)

[Despond.2174]

It's not happening, this MMO is designed to be able to be picked up from where you left no matter how long you're away. It was always designed to be a semi-casual MMO. Everything except maybe raids--where you need to put in some effort to get into training groups--is achievable quickly and by yourself - including fractals. The gear system it's self is probably the most flexible and casual friendly system of the current top 5 MMOs.

They have their market cornered, and they aren't going to just randomly change that and risk losing their loyal fanbase.

[belst.6815]

It seems that most of you are arguing about open world or raids.

Sure, they bring a new map every episode but they also bring new instanced story missions every episode. why not make THEM harder.

Last episode for example, I could pretty much facetank every single mechanic in the story with my full zerker thief. And even if I die, nothing happens. NOTHING. You can just continue.Imo this is extremly boring. You don't even NEED to try to get at least mediocre at the game when you can just complete the whole story with pressing 1.

Just make the mechanics more punishing if you fail them and add some sort of punishment for dying. People will try to get better then. hopefully.

Maybe after dying 5 times you have to recover and can't try the story again for 2 hours? Or even longer?

[Linken.6345]

@belst.6815 said:It seems that most of you are arguing about open world or raids.

Sure, they bring a new map every episode but they also bring new instanced story missions every episode. why not make THEM harder.

Last episode for example, I could pretty much facetank every single mechanic in the story with my full zerker thief. And even if I die, nothing happens. NOTHING. You can just continue.Imo this is extremly boring. You don't even NEED to try to get at least mediocre at the game when you can just complete the whole story with pressing 1.

Just make the mechanics more punishing if you fail them and add some sort of punishment for dying. People will try to get better then. hopefully.

Maybe after dying 5 times you have to recover and can't try the story again for 2 hours? Or even longer?

The crying would be to much, I mean dont you remember the eater of souls debacle?EditAnd about the lock out would be screaming about time gates all over again.