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We NEED a major rework!


BurrTheKing.8571

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Things have finally hit critical mass in PvP. Heart of Thorns lit the tinder and Path of Fire spread the blaze to the whole forest. The state of PvP is such a mess that small tweaks and adjustments every four to six months won't solve the problem. The issues are buried deep, and it's not just a problem with the individual class balance.

So long as the majority of capture points remain small circles classes with many AoEs will be easy to land and highly rewarding. Fighting a Scourge in an open area is not nearly as difficult as it is in a side point. Full Counter on Spellbreaker is fairly easy to avoid 1v1 but in the chaos of a point battle it's almost impossible to avoid triggering it.

I only see two possibilities to address this, either you redesign conquest with larger points and make it so that the team with more players in point start capturing like in Battlefield, or you replace the mode in ranked completely with a new mode. Perhaps something simple like round based TDM; leaving the old conquest in unranked.

Class balance is still a major issue however. Skill cooldowns are too low and activation times are too fast. Perhaps this is less of a problem at the highest levels, but that level is limited to a few dozen players. Combat in GW1 was satisfying because each skill mattered. GW2 has much better feeling combat in terms of mobility and fluidity but years of power creep have sped the game up to the point where fights don't look like anything other than a giant mess and all of those beautiful animations and effects can't be seen in their full glory most of the time.

Every class needs to be toned down across the board, no exceptions. Some traits that seem near mandatory need to either be removed and class mechanics need to be adjusted, or they need to be made baseline and every class gets something. Now, in a way that's also power creep, but what fun is a game like this when your build is basically designed for you because playing a Warrior with no 5 second weapon swap or a Thief without extra initiative is generally weaker than a build with those traits. The main things that need toning down are CC and the ease of Condi application. As far as PvP is concerned conditions should be damage over time, not just another form of burst damage. I understand why they are like they are in PvE, but not in PvP. As far as CC is concerned, big stuns and knockdowns are fine so long as they are highly telegraphed. With larger areas to fight, it'll be much easier to avoid getting chained.

I want to see PvP succeed, but with the way things are now the gameplay isn't engaging. It feels more like you're fighting the game as opposed to other players. The game mode redesigns are in my opinion more important than the balance changes, but in order for PvP to reach its potential is needs work on both ends.

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Why is the constant uptime of boons allowed in PvP along with complete CC immunity, condis and ridiculous consistent damage?

The only thing that can kind of counter a Spellbreaker is a very specific Mirage build being played by someone who's very good at PvP that uses its disgusting condi uptime and invisibility to keep them at bay because they literally can't hit it lol

And god forbid you're in a teamfight, because it takes an extreme amount of effort and skill to be able to tell what condis they have up, like Retaliation for example as stated in the post above - where you just get killed by your own damage output.

It seems every other spec has some sort of weakness or downtime to it, but Spellbreaker just lets you cycle through cooldowns while dishing out damage constantly no matter what.

It's literally the one of the best, if not the best elite spec out there in PvP right now and everybody in the PvP community, even Twitch streamers that play Warrior think it needs to be tuned down.

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@Kitten.4162 said:Why is the constant uptime of boons allowed in PvP along with complete CC immunity, condis and ridiculous consistent damage?

The only thing that can kind of counter a Spellbreaker is a very specific Mirage build being played by someone who's very good at PvP that uses its disgusting condi uptime and invisibility to keep them at bay because they literally can't hit it lol

And god forbid you're in a teamfight, because it takes an extreme amount of effort and skill to be able to tell what condis they have up, like Retaliation for example as stated in the post above - where you just get killed by your own damage output.

It seems every other spec has some sort of weakness or downtime to it, but Spellbreaker just lets you cycle through cooldowns while dishing out damage constantly no matter what.

It's literally the one of the best, if not the best elite spec out there in PvP right now and everybody in the PvP community, even Twitch streamers that play Warrior think it needs to be tuned down.

Like I said in the post, in a more open area it's not hard to avoid triggering Full Counter. It's also easier to interrupt the actual attack after triggering since the delay is fairly significant. It's when everyone is spamming on point that it's a free trigger. Me you could argue that a 10 second CD and the daze only hitting the one who triggered is reasonable, but with a larger space to fight it wouldn't even be much of a problem to begin with.

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This is part of why new game modes need to be introduced. Capture the flag, juggernaut, king of the hill, deathmatch, objective-based, etc. Each one places a different burden on the classes. Currently, conquest favors the big AoE classes, but a capture the flag game would not.

Conquest as it stands is a major reason why PvP in this game feels so stagnant and so bad.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:This is part of why new game modes need to be introduced. Capture the flag, juggernaut, king of the hill, deathmatch, objective-based, etc. Each one places a different burden on the classes. Currently, conquest favors the big AoE classes, but a capture the flag game would not.

Conquest as it stands is a major reason why PvP in this game feels so stagnant and so bad.

We are almost guaranteed to not get a new mode after the failure that stronghold was. Just not worth it for Anet to put in the resources for a completely new game mode when their history with that has been a flop.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:This is part of why new game modes need to be introduced. Capture the flag, juggernaut, king of the hill, deathmatch, objective-based, etc. Each one places a different burden on the classes. Currently, conquest favors the big AoE classes, but a capture the flag game would not.

Conquest as it stands is a major reason why PvP in this game feels so stagnant and so bad.

We are almost guaranteed to not get a new mode after the failure that stronghold was. Just not worth it for Anet to put in the resources for a completely new game mode when their history with that has been a flop.

It's a flop because they didn't even try to incentivize it and most reward schemes slanted toward conquest.

GW1 had other game types and worked just fine.

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@Asur.9178 said:PvP is a lot of "fun"...just run around button mashing for AoEs and win/lose. 0 thought needed.

Just button mash and succeed...sometimes fail because the other team had more AoE button mashing than you.

Thought is needed and badly, but the problem is there's 0 time to actually start said process. If you don't punch all of your panic buttons within 1.5s as a necro when receiving enemy focus, it's goodnight, lights out!

I would very much like to be a far more skilled necro that carefully chooses what and when he presses, but that's a comfort of 1v1 fight, while in middle blob which is where us necros are usually at there's no time for pondering who's hitting you with what when the whole enemy team is on your case...

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All of you asked for : PvE Rewards in PvP; to stop everybody losing streaks and to avoid any entrance restrictions to PvP

You all believed to know better but in the end..you were wrong:

-PvE rewards in PvP : You need prestige as unique reward for pvp...no pve skins that only attract the wrong type of crowd. You effectively kill the middle ground from where the TOP players are drawn with time; you need the "average" guy to sustain your PvP system and there is no middle ground anymore in this game

-Losing streaks : they averaged the MMR to stop people from having losing streaks but that only inflated artificially the MMR of players who never deserved to get past the lowest division for their lack of knowledge and conviction and at the same time greatly reduced the match quality

-No PvP restrictions : To maintain a given level of quality, you need to screen people at the entrance, verify if they have the right attitude to enter pvp- something like a trained area where you need to beat an AI team, would be pretty simple to program; maybe add something like random arena where you need to win 20-25 games in a row to open up structured pvp

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@BurrTheKing.8571 said:Things have finally hit critical mass in PvP. Heart of Thorns lit the tinder and Path of Fire spread the blaze to the whole forest. The state of PvP is such a mess that small tweaks and adjustments every four to six months won't solve the problem. The issues are buried deep, and it's not just a problem with the individual class balance.

So long as the majority of capture points remain small circles classes with many AoEs will be easy to land and highly rewarding. Fighting a Scourge in an open area is not nearly as difficult as it is in a side point. Full Counter on Spellbreaker is fairly easy to avoid 1v1 but in the chaos of a point battle it's almost impossible to avoid triggering it.

I only see two possibilities to address this, either you redesign conquest with larger points and make it so that the team with more players in point start capturing like in Battlefield, or you replace the mode in ranked completely with a new mode. Perhaps something simple like round based TDM; leaving the old conquest in unranked.

Class balance is still a major issue however. Skill cooldowns are too low and activation times are too fast. Perhaps this is less of a problem at the highest levels, but that level is limited to a few dozen players. Combat in GW1 was satisfying because each skill mattered. GW2 has much better feeling combat in terms of mobility and fluidity but years of power creep have sped the game up to the point where fights don't look like anything other than a giant mess and all of those beautiful animations and effects can't be seen in their full glory most of the time.

Every class needs to be toned down across the board, no exceptions. Some traits that seem near mandatory need to either be removed and class mechanics need to be adjusted, or they need to be made baseline and every class gets something. Now, in a way that's also power creep, but what fun is a game like this when your build is basically designed for you because playing a Warrior with no 5 second weapon swap or a Thief without extra initiative is generally weaker than a build with those traits. The main things that need toning down are CC and the ease of Condi application. As far as PvP is concerned conditions should be damage over time, not just another form of burst damage. I understand why they are like they are in PvE, but not in PvP. As far as CC is concerned, big stuns and knockdowns are fine so long as they are highly telegraphed. With larger areas to fight, it'll be much easier to avoid getting chained.

I want to see PvP succeed, but with the way things are now the gameplay isn't engaging. It feels more like you're fighting the game as opposed to other players. The game mode redesigns are in my opinion more important than the balance changes, but in order for PvP to reach its potential is needs work on both ends.

Wouldn't it be easier for you to find a proper PvP oriented game than expect a MMO to be changed into a MOBA?

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@Zenith.7301 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:This is part of why new game modes need to be introduced. Capture the flag, juggernaut, king of the hill, deathmatch, objective-based, etc. Each one places a different burden on the classes. Currently, conquest favors the big AoE classes, but a capture the flag game would not.

Conquest as it stands is a major reason why PvP in this game feels so stagnant and so bad.

We are almost guaranteed to not get a new mode after the failure that stronghold was. Just not worth it for Anet to put in the resources for a completely new game mode when their history with that has been a flop.

It's a flop because they didn't even try to incentivize it and most reward schemes slanted toward conquest.

GW1 had other game types and worked just fine.

I agree with you. But from a business perspective it doesn't make sense to devote the resources to trying yet a new game mode.

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@BurrTheKing.8571 said:@Arheundel.6451 I actually don't really like mobas. The top down perspective makes me feel disconnected from my character. I guess I could try SMITE but the combat mechanics don't look anywhere near as good. I also like the level of customization you get here.

I just want this to be better.

Nothing you, I, or the next person can say that will change things. ANet simply don't care to put in the resources to make PvP in this game, anything other than a PvE reward farm. Just get your pips and rewards and play the real game which is PvE.

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@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Thought is needed and badly, but the problem is there's 0 time to actually start said process. If you don't punch all of your panic buttons within 1.5s as a necro when receiving enemy focus, it's goodnight, lights out!

I would very much like to be a far more skilled necro that carefully chooses what and when he presses, but that's a comfort of 1v1 fight, while in middle blob which is where us necros are usually at there's no time for pondering who's hitting you with what when the whole enemy team is on your case...

Sure, we'll pretend that thought is needed...especially when playing the current scourge.

I'm going to pretend playing my scourge was difficult and that I wasn't on a 8-win streak the instant I started playing it, running to fights and spamming all my buttons, with 0 game plan, and killing everyone. I'm going to pretend that I don't hold that streak any longer too because I simply alt+f4'd after the last game and haven't PvP'd since because of how atrocious the games were.

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@Marxx.5021 said:Everybody knew that PoF means balancing in PvP gets worse. It will take some time I guess until things settle.

The problem is that it will take more than a year here in GW2. In order for that to happen. Meanwhile actually PvP titles would have started releasing the groundwork for fixes not even 2 weeks after such a problem presented itself.

This is simply because ANet just does not pursue PvP balance, as a necessity, more as a burden to their company.

On the other hand PvP titles have to fix stuff quick. Or risk losing sufficient population and support for the product and question. Just look no farther than Paragon for a example of this.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:This is part of why new game modes need to be introduced. Capture the flag, juggernaut, king of the hill, deathmatch, objective-based, etc. Each one places a different burden on the classes. Currently, conquest favors the big AoE classes, but a capture the flag game would not.

Conquest as it stands is a major reason why PvP in this game feels so stagnant and so bad.

We are almost guaranteed to not get a new mode after the failure that stronghold was. Just not worth it for Anet to put in the resources for a completely new game mode when their history with that has been a flop.

It flopped because they didn't devote enough effort to it.

They built a single map, let it run, and did virtually nothing else. If they had taken the time to iron out some balance issues or add in more varied maps, I doubt it would have been seen as much of a "failure."

Same went for the brief time we had a team death match map. They tried it once, with one map, and didn't do anything to adjust it or its rules.

This goes for any project in life -- nothing worth doing is easy.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:This is part of why new game modes need to be introduced. Capture the flag, juggernaut, king of the hill, deathmatch, objective-based, etc. Each one places a different burden on the classes. Currently, conquest favors the big AoE classes, but a capture the flag game would not.

Conquest as it stands is a major reason why PvP in this game feels so stagnant and so bad.

We are almost guaranteed to not get a new mode after the failure that stronghold was. Just not worth it for Anet to put in the resources for a completely new game mode when their history with that has been a flop.

It flopped because they didn't devote enough effort to it.

They built a single map, let it run, and did virtually nothing else. If they had taken the time to iron out some balance issues or add in more varied maps, I doubt it would have been seen as much of a "failure."

Same went for the brief time we had a team death match map. They tried it once, with one map, and didn't do anything to adjust it or its rules.

This goes for any project in life -- nothing worth doing is easy.

It's baffling because GW1 had PvP as a core part of the gameplay. In Factions you had PvP modes spread out in the PvE areas. PvP was basically the end game. Sure you had difficult PvE stuff before it became a farm but there was clearly always a lot of focus on PvP. We got balance updates and skill splitting way more frequently. This lead to a lot of flavor of the month team comps but that kept things fresh. We get the same meta in GW2 for 6 months+.

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I agree with you completely OP. I love this game and I've gotten a lot of my friends to buy it. Everythign is great except PvP class balance. PvP class balance is one giant mess. you need a new class balance team. The expansion was a good time to overhaul it, but now it's just one big missed opportunity. The same complaints directed at anet for the last 2 years have been amplified. As if they're playing a game of do the opposite whatever the other person says.

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I agree as well, while I do make my own builds using standard stuff (no HoT or PoF) most of it consist of damage preventing abilities because of the crazy aoe burst and high damage burst that occur, not to mention other abilities that I would love to take but I can't because of what most people use (which tends to be the -same-meta-combos, again and again). I have noticed that a lot of the specializations tend to have much more bonuses in their traits than standard traits. However for a small wind of hope, PoF does have negative buffs for their classes which can (and should) make a player weigh up the pros and cons of using a specialization.

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@choovanski.5462 said:yeah, but how valuable is a full rework going to be if it's done by the same dev team who created the current mess were in?

I feel like we need something we will never get.

It seems like the real problem is that no one is dedicated specifically to PvP balance. They're always trying to balance for all modes at the same time. This clearly isn't working and it's time for there to be someone dedicated to PvP balance only and for there to be a ton of skill splits. They don't even have to change the functionality in most cases, just numbers.

They'll need to make even fewer changes of we get a different game mode or a rework to conquest.

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