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Weaver Dual Attacks feel weak and useless half the time. The elite spec is basically designed around using your dual attacks as much as possible with at least 4 traits specifically tied into them. I shall now list the skills by impact.Heavy Impact Skills:Staff: Pile DriverScepter: Earthen Synergy, Plasma BeamDagger: Steam Surge, Katabatic Wind, Mud SlideSword: Gale Strike, Lava Skin, Pyro vortex

Medium Impact Skills:Staff: Pyroclastic Blast, Plasma BlastScepter: Fiery FrostDagger: Grinding Stones, Ashen BlastSword Skills: Natural Frenzy

Low Impact Skills:Staff: Pressure Blast, Lahar, MonsoonScepter: Glacial Drift, Fracturing Strike, Stone TideDagger: Plasma BurstSword: Shearing Edge, Twin Strike

Some of the skills in the medium and low categories have aspects which are useful in pvp but are either too slow, clunky, or don't provide what you actually WANT when attuning to that attunement. For instance, most of the skills you will notice in the bottom category have water as part of their attunement combo. When an elementalist switches to water, they want a skill that will heal them or otherwise offer sustain far greater than being in Air-fire for instance. Staff and scepter are the most egregious in this regard. On staff, I am sacrificing a potent aoe heal for skills that, what, do weak damage and apply weak conditions?! Seriously. As for Scepter, Glacial Drift and Stone Tide are just AWFUL. Good luck being effective with either of those. I know Water Trident doesn't heal much, but it can at least cure a condition when traited. I could go on and on but I think weaver seriously needs to be looked at.

On a side noteTraits which reduce the cool down of skills in a specific attunement should function for Dual Attacks as well. If both are taken, they should double up to be a 40% CD reduction. If this means increasing the base CD of some dual attacks so be it.

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I agree, more isn't always better.

I've been wondering why they didn't go with a Kalla like stacking buff that encouraged constant attunement swapping given weaver is supposed to "dance" in combat.

As for the dual attack mechanic, instead of making up a ton of new skills with variable usefulness, why not simply make the elite a 3 charge Unravel and focus on dual-attunement altering autoattacks instead - which is far more in theme with dual attacks as previously implemented on thief where the main- and off-hand decides the skill 3, not just the main-hand as it does on weaver and where the attunements are what decides the skill available.

I remember the cascade of new, yet quite unimpactful skills, being what drove me away from the spec as it came out.

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Addendum: I was playing my staff weaver and just found out that Monsoon (Air-Water) doesn't even grants it's regen to the user , only to allies. The only thing useful about the attack is broken. . . lovely.

Edit: Also Plasma blast is low tier not mid. my bad

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@MyPuppy.8970 said:Because 26 weapon skills too OP, must compensate with low damage, high CD, long cast time, low range, and rooting + blockable/reflectable.

26 Weapon skills does seem OP until you realize that if you NEED to swap to a certain attunement in order to stay alive, the effective weapon skills you have available to you (across all attunements) is only 16 keeping in mind that 4 of these are auto attacks and 4 are full attunement skill 3's. Now, taking the staff as an example, what skills are useful when I attunement swap as a Weaver? Fireball, Lava Font, Chain Lightning, Lightning Surge, Gust, Pile Driver, Geyser, Stoning, and Magnetic Aura. That is 8 skills, 3 of which are auto attacks, 1 of which is straight DoT, 3 of which are FULL attunement skills, and one of which is a heavy damage and CC Dual Attack. What this boils down to is that there is only ONE heal skill that is of any substantiate use, and that you need KNOW you need to heal at least 3.5 seconds prior to actually having access to it. On top of that, those 3.5-4 seconds are going to be spent not having access to ANY useful weapon skills for your #1, 2, or 3 slots.

Give me a reason to play something other than sword weaver anet, please. . .

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@MyPuppy.8970 said:Because 26 weapon skills too OP, must compensate with low damage, high CD, long cast time, low range, and rooting + blockable/reflectable.

Yes, ele must have every possible drawback for having extra skills. One is not enough. Every time someone asks why ele is lacking something, someone else will say that they have extra skills, while not realizing that ele has way more drawbacks and that the extra skills are always used as the justification for everything. How about we pick one or two drawbacks for the extra skills instead of having an entire list?

You also forgot lowest survivability if not invested in as a drawback. It doesn't directly tie into dual skills, but it's not like those help your survivability much anyway.

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@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

I think that post was meant sarcastically to begin with.Just look at those skills.

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@Zenix.6198 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

I think that post was meant sarcastically to begin with.Just look at those skills.

Well, OP listes Pyro Vortex as very strong... I might have problems seeing sarcasm sometimes, I admit. I need smileys for that!

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

I think that post was meant sarcastically to begin with.Just look at those skills.

Well, OP listes Pyro Vortex as very strong... I might have problems seeing sarcasm sometimes, I admit. I need smileys for that!

Thing is, meta weaver is this low damage evade spam crap. If you eat all the ticks of pyro vortex from a glass build I think you'll change your tune.

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@Ovark.2514 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

I think that post was meant sarcastically to begin with.Just look at those skills.

Well, OP listes Pyro Vortex as very strong... I might have problems seeing sarcasm sometimes, I admit. I need smileys for that!

Thing is, meta weaver is this low damage evade spam kitten. If you eat all the ticks of pyro vortex from a glass build I think you'll change your tune.

Yes, you're right of course, but that only works after very specific skill rotations - Gale Strike, Updraft - or on downed bodies. If they increased the radius a little, things would be very very different indeed. That's why I have always been saying: Don't increase damage, increase ranges (a little).

Enabling sword Weaver to be able to use very offensive amulets would also be an option, but I don't think they are willing to make such big efforts. And, to be honest, I don't think it is necessary. It's the same issue why Spellbreaker gets balanced around offensive amulets and noone really thinks of using mender there. Why would anyone give up so much damage when the healing is already great?

@Grimjack.8130, don't be toxic. Just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they are wrong. Especially without any explanation, that'd be just arrogant. If you bring more actual arguments, I'd be happy to discuss.

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@AlexPlay.8436 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ye definitely some of dual attacks and ele skills in general have high cds.

Yes, it's very confusing: why these traits [Aquamancer's Training], [Pyromancer's Training], [Aeromancer's Training], [Geomancer's Training] do not affect dual-attacks CD?I see no logic here.May be it's just a bug?

In this game, when a bug is there for a long time, it's no longer a bug, it's a feature. But yes I always wondered as well why they don't affect dual skills, it's just silly, especially granted how awful dual skills CD usually are. Dual skills also tend to take the defensive skills spot on core weapon, which hurt those weaponset in PvP.

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

Don't try to change my words when I say they are good skills. They aren't good in whatever context you're trying to put them in, I'm telling you they are straight up, good skills. You can't tell that because you don't see the same synergy that others do.

Twin Strike is a key in the loop of both Fire and Water Weaver, that pushes your offensive capability to the max even when you're resustaining. Very few Weavers take advantage of where this skill is located and how to use it optimally, even popular Weaver youtubers completely skip over this skill.Fracturing Strike is a two part hard hitting skill that has great synergy with Fresh Air, and its even a great skill in the rare Lightning Rod Scepter builds that people sometimes play. (also vuln.)Stone Tide hits a ton, guaranteeing your Fresh Air proc when used on someone CCed or in the downstate, and stacks great Vulnerability dramatically buffing you and your teams downcleave or removes Aegis so harder hitting skills will land (Shatterstone).

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@Grimjack.8130 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

Don't try to change my words when I say they are good skills. They aren't good in whatever context you're trying to put them in, I'm telling you they are straight up, good skills. You can't tell that because you don't see the same synergy that others do.

Twin Strike is a key in the loop of both Fire and Water Weaver, that pushes your offensive capability to the max even when you're resustaining. Very few Weavers take advantage of where this skill is located and how to use it optimally, even popular Weaver youtubers completely skip over this skill.Fracturing Strike is a two part hard hitting skill that has great synergy with Fresh Air, and its even a great skill in the rare Lightning Rod Scepter builds that people sometimes play. (also vuln.)Stone Tide hits a ton, guaranteeing your Fresh Air proc when used on someone CCed or in the downstate, and stacks great Vulnerability dramatically buffing you and your teams downcleave or removes Aegis so harder hitting skills will land (Shatterstone).

...this whole post is just..cringe worthy

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

Don't try to change my words when I say they are good skills. They aren't good in whatever context you're trying to put them in, I'm telling you they are straight up, good skills. You can't tell that because you don't see the same synergy that others do.

Twin Strike is a key in the loop of both Fire and Water Weaver, that pushes your offensive capability to the max even when you're resustaining. Very few Weavers take advantage of where this skill is located and how to use it optimally, even popular Weaver youtubers completely skip over this skill.Fracturing Strike is a two part hard hitting skill that has great synergy with Fresh Air, and its even a great skill in the rare Lightning Rod Scepter builds that people sometimes play. (also vuln.)Stone Tide hits a ton, guaranteeing your Fresh Air proc when used on someone CCed or in the downstate, and stacks great Vulnerability dramatically buffing you and your teams downcleave or removes Aegis so harder hitting skills will land (Shatterstone).

...this whole post is just..cringe worthy

Nice job explaining why it's cringe-worthy. I for the most part agree with Grimjack.

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@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

Don't try to change my words when I say they are good skills. They aren't good in whatever context you're trying to put them in, I'm telling you they are straight up, good skills. You can't tell that because you don't see the same synergy that others do.

Twin Strike is a key in the loop of both Fire and Water Weaver, that pushes your offensive capability to the max even when you're resustaining. Very few Weavers take advantage of where this skill is located and how to use it optimally, even popular Weaver youtubers completely skip over this skill.Fracturing Strike is a two part hard hitting skill that has great synergy with Fresh Air, and its even a great skill in the rare Lightning Rod Scepter builds that people sometimes play. (also vuln.)Stone Tide hits a ton, guaranteeing your Fresh Air proc when used on someone CCed or in the downstate, and stacks great Vulnerability dramatically buffing you and your teams downcleave or removes Aegis so harder hitting skills will land (Shatterstone).

...this whole post is just..cringe worthy

Nice job explaining why it's cringe-worthy. I for the most part agree with Grimjack.

The elementalist class is the only one without any in-built defensive mechanic and any resemblance of minimal sustain comes from raw stats alone, for this reason ele, the class is forced to always rely on bunker amulets to avoid being oneshotted on the spot, it's the same reason why scepter builds are just yolo builds for solo ranked low levels or group ganking in wvw.

Secondly the skills he mentions if used by a full zerk ele do as much dmg as a demolisher ranger with lb AA, the latter will only have 3-4x more sustain and impact in game....from the 1200 ranger comfort.

Maybe you and Grimjack want to reach the AT finals playing this amazing weaver burst build..or at the very least anywhere near plat 2

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You cannot say a skill is bad because you view the build as bad or unviable, thats an arguement thats flawed. Regardless of the strength of the build overall, you should be able to see the value the skills bring to the table. Sadly you cannot, and you would rather try to play me down as some random who doesn't know what I'm talking about.

It seems you don't even see the niche that Fresh Air Weaver can create for itself, it has more sustain than any other "one shot" build in the game, it also never runs out of damage meaning theres no other class worse for you to let free cast than a Fresh Air Weaver. I've played Fresh Air Weaver in 5v5s versus some of the best players in the game. It has some of the best ranged spike, probably only second to Sic' Em Soulbeast on top of everything else I've already mentioned. Regardless, this isn't what this thread is about, but I can go on if you want.

You also completely skipped over my point about Twin Strike, I'd assume because you can't figure out a reason why I would be wrong.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

Don't try to change my words when I say they are good skills. They aren't good in whatever context you're trying to put them in, I'm telling you they are straight up, good skills. You can't tell that because you don't see the same synergy that others do.

Twin Strike is a key in the loop of both Fire and Water Weaver, that pushes your offensive capability to the max even when you're resustaining. Very few Weavers take advantage of where this skill is located and how to use it optimally, even popular Weaver youtubers completely skip over this skill.Fracturing Strike is a two part hard hitting skill that has great synergy with Fresh Air, and its even a great skill in the rare Lightning Rod Scepter builds that people sometimes play. (also vuln.)Stone Tide hits a ton, guaranteeing your Fresh Air proc when used on someone CCed or in the downstate, and stacks great Vulnerability dramatically buffing you and your teams downcleave or removes Aegis so harder hitting skills will land (Shatterstone).

...this whole post is just..cringe worthy

Nice job explaining why it's cringe-worthy. I for the most part agree with Grimjack.

The elementalist class is the only one without any in-built defensive mechanic and any resemblance of minimal sustain comes from raw stats alone, for this reason ele, the class is forced to always rely on bunker amulets to avoid being oneshotted on the spot, it's the same reason why scepter builds are just yolo builds for solo ranked low levels or group ganking in wvw.

Secondly the skills he mentions if used by a full zerk ele do as much dmg as a demolisher ranger with lb AA, the latter will only have 3-4x more sustain and impact in game....from the 1200 ranger comfort.

Maybe you and Grimjack want to reach the AT finals playing this amazing weaver burst build..or at the very least anywhere near plat 2

As a fellow Weaver PVP player, I disagree with that. You will rely less and less on your amulet for sustain the more you are able to optimize your built-in sustain mechanics and anticipate enemy moves. Take weakness and evades for example, they are built-in mechanics that can boost your sustain and let you maximize your damage. Of course, there are teams comp that require to use a bunker amulet sometimes because the enemy team condi or damage potential will be too high for your built-in mechanics alone.

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@Grimjack.8130 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:Twin Strike is really good, Fracturing Strike is REALLY good, and Stone Tide is really good too.

The problem is that other classes have powercrept away. So while they are good in a core/HoT context, they are lackluster in PoF.

Not too much. No need to overbuff ele. But some small adjustments in ranges, projectile speeds and QoL (casting backwards, some CDs...) would be great.

(...)

Twin Strike is a key in the loop of both Fire and Water Weaver, that pushes your offensive capability to the max even when you're resustaining. Very few Weavers take advantage of where this skill is located and how to use it optimally, even popular Weaver youtubers completely skip over this skill.

Twin Strike is not bad. But the direct damage is not great either and while the Chill is nice, the Burning is just one stack. (Side note: It is good to have two independant conditions on one skill though.) The damage is suboptimal and does not need to be evaded. Imagine not evading something like Deathstrike or Warrior Axe skills. It is also no real downed pressure - the range is so small that it is hard to hit more than one enemy.

It hits for 3k ish damage with mender if both strikes crit +1k for the burning.*

(...)Fracturing Strike is a two part hard hitting skill that has great synergy with Fresh Air, and its even a great skill in the rare Lightning Rod Scepter builds that people sometimes play. (also vuln.)(...)

It has a 1s cast time. It has weak damage coefficients. And is behind Fire-Earth, not at all optimal for a FA weaver. About 4k damage on full zerker with Scholar runes.*

Interestingly though, it is again a hybrid skill. Scepter doesn't really work in PVP with conditions, but they seem fixed on adding conditions to make up for weak(er) direct damage coefficients. Less burning but a higher damage coefficient would make this much more interesting and synergize much better with Scepter for Ele (in PvP).

Other hybrid skills like Photon Blitz from Yolosmith do have great direct damage coefficients (2.4!) and still added conditions. Why not for Ele?

Stone Tide hits a ton, guaranteeing your Fresh Air proc when used on someone CCed or in the downstate, and stacks great Vulnerability dramatically buffing you and your teams downcleave or removes Aegis so harder hitting skills will land (Shatterstone).

Again locked behind Water-Earth. No air attuning for 8 seconds for an FA weaver. Hits a ton? On full Zerker with scholar runes it hits for 3.2k if everything crits + 600ish for bleeding. Not even 4k.* We seem to have different definitions of "hitting a ton" and "hard hitting skill". It is nice because it can be cast backwards though.

And then we have a low damage skill. Again a hybrid skill which Scepter-PVP builds rarely use. Compared to Photon Blitz? Or Confusing Images, which is also a hybrid weapon skill now (lol)? Incredibly low damage especially with the broken version of it we had some weeks ago.

My conclusion:The skills are kind of solid. But calling something "good" also needs to have some relation - and there is a reason Sword Weaver has problems punishing opponents. Twin Strike is definitely good enough to be used, especially with the synergies, but it lacks any significant pressure or acute danger. Nobody watches out for that skill to dodge it like Revenant or Warrior close combat skills. Increasing the range a little would enable Weaver to apply some AoE pressure. Increasing the damage would make the build more of a +1 role, focussing out enemies, also a possibility, but one that would not quite fit the sidenode bunker role.

And there is a reason Scepter builds don't use conditions and waste a major part of the potential. I have yet to see FA weavers use these two skills to any major effect (actually rarely using them at all, only while kiting or as a combat opener respectively). I would like to see the direct damage coefficients increased or some conditions changed - Stone Tide could use some Chill or Cripple for kiting purposes, for example.

€:*All on light armor targets, I should add.

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