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Deadeye... what were they thinking?!


Silverstone.4539

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I'm curious on how much armor (defense + toughness) is on players who get hit by DJ for 25k (or more) damage. You can assess how much damage would be taken by simply using the math:

New Damage = Old Damage * Old Armor / New Armor

In other words, if you want to see how that 25k crit would change with higher armor, use the equation above. Example: If you take 25k crit DJ with 2600 armor, then you'd take this damage instead if you had 3000 armor:

25k * 2600 / 3000 = 21.6k

That is a 13% reduction in damage. However 3000 armor is not typical on most builds, and would be considered rather tanky. A glassy build however can have an armor value as low as 2000. That would result in the following math for pure glass vs. "tanky":

25k * 2000 / 3000 = 16.7k

Still big, but more survivable than a 25k crit.

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@Solori.6025 said:If you were rezzing someone then they were probably marked, and you took the hit for them.

Is that possible? I was rezzing a corpse, not a downed. In any case it wasn't on me.

Whether I was or wasn't marked, I don't expect Anet will let this particular thing carry just because it seems at odds with how they want the game to be played. Hard hitting one-shots tend to get blunted, and this is the hardest hitting one-shot in the game to date with the most range and a stealth component as well. I just don't expect this is in line with what they intended or that they'll let it carry on.

That being said, I don't remotely see Deadeye as unbalanced so far, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was an unintended issue (like building malice off of a wall). Also, the guy was nice and all... my post was more to draw attention to something strange rather than anything salty.

@juno.1840 said:I'm curious on how much armor (defense + toughness) is on players who get hit by DJ for 25k (or more) damage.

About 2300 for me. 26.5k (unmarked) on the first round, and 29k (marked) on the second.

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@"Trajan.4953" said:Hehe Pogo theifs were stoked for Deadeye. Hopes and dreams shattered.

Love it.

No one should cheer for a class getting nerfed, and another player having "hopes and dreams shattered." That type of attitude is toxic. This is a game, but people deserve respect whether you condone their actions or not. I haven't played all the classes extensively, so I avoid calling any nerfs on them. Why? Because I don't understand how they work. Two months ago, I started a mesmer and my eyes widened in horror at how complex the class is. I gained a greater respect for those players because mesmers have to really know their class to get results.

At least, I think because I haven't played a mesmer long.

Until we actually understand how each class works; its weaknesses and advantages, you don't have the privilege of calling a nerf unless something really seems wrong (like massive damage while unmarked).

Games are supposed to be fun, not "I want the other player to suffer because I think their class is OP. Anet, please nerf [insert class name here]!" Yes, I agree it's frustrating to die in 1-2 hits, hence why I avoid WvW unless I need a quick daily done. I also avoid PvP like the plague unless, again, I need a quick daily.

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I suggest people test it themselves and then bug report it. You mark ANYTHING. And use that bonus on ANY target (even in the other direction nowhere near your mark). You can mark a wall, a mosquito, a random player or gate guard. Death's Judgement does not have to hit the marked target to get the bonus. I have also noticed that I am getting the increased damage with 3 round burst against targets other than my mark. Mark a wall, random player comes along and hit the player for 6k x3 (which only takes 1 second).

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@Choppy.4183 said:

@Solori.6025 said:If you were rezzing someone then they were probably marked, and you took the hit for them.

Is that possible? I was rezzing a corpse, not a downed. In any case it wasn't on me.

Whether I was or wasn't marked, I don't expect Anet will let this particular thing carry just because it seems at odds with how they want the game to be played. Hard hitting one-shots tend to get blunted, and this is the hardest hitting one-shot in the game to date with the most range and a stealth component as well. I just don't expect this is in line with what they intended or that they'll let it carry on.

That being said, I don't remotely see Deadeye as unbalanced so far, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was an unintended issue (like building malice off of a wall). Also, the guy was nice and all... my post was more to draw attention to something strange rather than anything salty.

@juno.1840 said:I'm curious on how much armor (defense + toughness) is on players who get hit by DJ for 25k (or more) damage.

About 2300 for me. 26.5k (unmarked) on the first round, and 29k (marked) on the second.

There are plenty of "tells" a marked target receives in order to avoid this damage. I tend to know right away when I am marked and as others pointed out there is that beam that shows a bullet incoming before that bullet hits. Dodge and 6 ini burned for no hit. Beter yet, if you on a warrior or a class with reflect , use your shield block just as you see that beam and reflect the shot back on the thief. If he has gotten your malice up to full stacks and you were oblivious to his presence prior, that means he was not using attacks to increase malice faster. In order to get malice get malice up to that level he will have needed time meaning if you are marked and have dodged that first incoming, he does not have a lot of time to get a second in before the mark expires.

It a very counterable skill which IMO means it not OP.

Obviously this all changes if a bug or exploit being used to generate that malice , but bugs and exploits should not translate to the need to nerf a skill.

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@gebrechen.5643 said:To ask something constructive and because I haven't met many rifle thieves this week.After seeing kitten getting hit for 23k I ask myself:

  • can I see an animation when a thief casts Death's sentence or can he do it from stealth?
  • is it reflectable?
  • does full counter work against it?

Death’s Judgement can not deal damage from Stealth, the Skill reveals before the cat animation begins.

There is a rather obvious Red/Orange Laser as soon as skill is cast from a Deadeye to Target, the Bullet has a Dark Red trail as well.

It is Reflectable unless they use Basilisk Venom ( a 40 sec CD)

Full Counter Damage reduction works on it, but the damage won’t unless they are within 300 Range.

There seems to be a bug that Death’s Judgement Malice modifiers affect anyone that isn’t marked as long as something is Marked. On top of the bug that all Deadeye Kneeling Skills aren’t hitting for the proper range, they fall quite short of what they are supposed to.

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One of them 1 shotted me on my warrior today with death's judgement. So just under 21k damage in a single shot. Which I guess is fine.....just they did it from stealth with that one skill. I'm literally ooc then suddenly im dead in 1 hit. Kinda dumb, since it revealed them after it alrdy hit me and I was down for the count. I can't remember if I could see the projectile or not as it shot from stealth......definitely wasn't time to see anything that fast and discrete if ur not looking out for it. I didn't die since others were around me and we were looking for him the whole time...so he was obviously stacking stuff on me from stealth the entire time even though I didn't notice the deadeye mark on me (im pretty sure i didnt have the mark till he shot).

Its a case of you know a deadeye is in the area. YOu are ooc, full hp, full armour. You have no way to reveal him out of stealth, which can stack a stupid long time, so you don't know if he still around lurking or ran off at anytime. Thennn ur ded. Im pretty darned sure I didnt have the deadeye mark on me the whole time...I def woulda noticed. Even if I did though...I literally couldn't do anything other than try to dodge at the second he shoots me...lol. And even then that wouldn't reveal him since he didnt hit anything, he could just try again.

I don't think that's okay.....1-shotting from stealth, especially when the penalty is only being revealed for 3 seconds on a class that can easily do a marathon run in that time and back for a stealth stomp. That needs a change. Using such a powerful skill should reveal or drop stealth 'as its' casting, not after it hits lol.

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@gebrechen.5643 said:To ask something constructive and because I haven't met many rifle thieves this week.After seeing kitten getting hit for 23k I ask myself:
  • can I see an animation when a thief casts Death's sentence or can he do it from stealth?
  • is it reflectable?
  • does full counter work against it?

Death’s Judgement can not deal damage from Stealth, the Skill reveals before the cat animation begins.

There is a rather obvious Red/Orange Laser as soon as skill is cast from a Deadeye to Target, the Bullet has a Dark Red trail as well.

I wonder if this shows up for non targeted players, many times in group play I have managed to hit people that are either walking in front of my target, (or simply don't know a DE can shot two DJ's back to back.)

There seems to be a bug that Death’s Judgement Malice modifiers affect anyone that isn’t marked as long as something is Marked. On top of the bug that all Deadeye Kneeling Skills aren’t hitting for the proper range, they fall quite short of what they are supposed to.

If it's bugged then I have no doubt it will be fixed, but they also need to fix all of the bugs for even using rifle first I think.

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@Cerby.1069 said:One of them 1 shotted me on my warrior today with death's judgement. So just under 21k damage in a single shot. Which I guess is fine.....just they did it from stealth with that one skill. I'm literally ooc then suddenly im dead in 1 hit. Kinda kitten, since it revealed them after it alrdy hit me and I was down for the count. I can't remember if I could see the projectile or not as it shot from stealth......definitely wasn't time to see anything that fast and discrete if ur not looking out for it. I didn't die since others were around me and we were looking for him the whole time...so he was obviously stacking stuff on me from stealth the entire time even though I didn't notice the deadeye mark on me (im pretty sure i didnt have the mark till he shot).

Its a case of you know a deadeye is in the area. YOu are ooc, full hp, full armour. You have no way to reveal him out of stealth, which can stack a stupid long time, so you don't know if he still around lurking or ran off at anytime. Thennn ur ded. Im pretty darned sure I didnt have the deadeye mark on me the whole time...I def woulda noticed. Even if I did though...I literally couldn't do anything other than try to dodge at the second he shoots me...lol. And even then that wouldn't reveal him since he didnt hit anything, he could just try again.

I don't think that's okay.....1-shotting from stealth, especially when the penalty is only being revealed for 3 seconds on a class that can easily do a marathon run in that time and back for a stealth stomp. That needs a change. Using such a powerful skill should reveal or drop stealth 'as its' casting, not after it hits lol.

The damage cannot come from Stealth..... it reveals before any animation starts. Reading Tooltips is an amazing thing. And there is an orange laser before the bulltet ever fires.

They made sure it had a lot of obvious tells and visuals and that a Thief can’t burst from Stealth with it.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:Don't know why anyone including the developers would think one shot skills is a good idea for this game.This isn't Ghost Recon.

The first time I learned they're going to include a sniper profession in this game - even though I play it now - I really thought this is totally heading in the wrong direction. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound like a hypocrite, while I play the Deadeye it's solely because I play sniper classes in most games, but at the same time I agree it doesn't fit in this game. I think the same about Dragonhunter (that's the worst mix of knight + archer + hunter + mage + what not, typical for the weakest of players to be able to score as it requires 0 thinking), but then again there are plenty of professions that make this game casual because they're just about spamming buttons randomly.

There is very little skill gap. Even the lowest ranks can often score a win by sheer luck, or by exploiting what is currently most imbalanced.

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If anyone has their doubts about the 1-shot without being marked claim, I did get it on video thanks for the wonders of modern technology.https://youtu.be/lUCnsAUN1PcMuted since I had NSFW music playing. As you can see I was not marked. That's why I was asking if any Deadeyes or anyone else knows if this damage should be possible theoretically without being marked, or if it is a bug/exploit. I don't want to claim it's a bug due to the ignorance I have of all things thief.

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:One of them 1 shotted me on my warrior today with death's judgement. So just under 21k damage in a single shot. Which I guess is fine.....just they did it from stealth with that one skill. I'm literally ooc then suddenly im dead in 1 hit. Kinda kitten, since it revealed them after it alrdy hit me and I was down for the count. I can't remember if I could see the projectile or not as it shot from stealth......definitely wasn't time to see anything that fast and discrete if ur not looking out for it. I didn't die since others were around me and we were looking for him the whole time...so he was obviously stacking stuff on me from stealth the entire time even though I didn't notice the deadeye mark on me (im pretty sure i didnt have the mark till he shot).

Its a case of you know a deadeye is in the area. YOu are ooc, full hp, full armour. You have no way to reveal him out of stealth, which can stack a stupid long time, so you don't know if he still around lurking or ran off at anytime. Thennn ur ded. Im pretty darned sure I didnt have the deadeye mark on me the whole time...I def woulda noticed. Even if I did though...I literally couldn't do anything other than try to dodge at the second he shoots me...lol. And even then that wouldn't reveal him since he didnt hit anything, he could just try again.

I don't think that's okay.....1-shotting from stealth, especially when the penalty is only being revealed for 3 seconds on a class that can easily do a marathon run in that time and back for a stealth stomp. That needs a change. Using such a powerful skill should reveal or drop stealth 'as its' casting, not after it hits lol.

The damage cannot come from Stealth..... it reveals before any animation starts. Reading Tooltips is an amazing thing. And there is an orange laser before the bulltet ever fires.

They made sure it had a lot of obvious tells and visuals and that a Thief can’t burst from Stealth with it.

meh, i saw what i saw...tooltip or no

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@Cerby.1069 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:One of them 1 shotted me on my warrior today with death's judgement. So just under 21k damage in a single shot. Which I guess is fine.....just they did it from stealth with that one skill. I'm literally ooc then suddenly im dead in 1 hit. Kinda kitten, since it revealed them after it alrdy hit me and I was down for the count. I can't remember if I could see the projectile or not as it shot from stealth......definitely wasn't time to see anything that fast and discrete if ur not looking out for it. I didn't die since others were around me and we were looking for him the whole time...so he was obviously stacking stuff on me from stealth the entire time even though I didn't notice the deadeye mark on me (im pretty sure i didnt have the mark till he shot).

Its a case of you know a deadeye is in the area. YOu are ooc, full hp, full armour. You have no way to reveal him out of stealth, which can stack a stupid long time, so you don't know if he still around lurking or ran off at anytime. Thennn ur ded. Im pretty darned sure I didnt have the deadeye mark on me the whole time...I def woulda noticed. Even if I did though...I literally couldn't do anything other than try to dodge at the second he shoots me...lol. And even then that wouldn't reveal him since he didnt hit anything, he could just try again.

I don't think that's okay.....1-shotting from stealth, especially when the penalty is only being revealed for 3 seconds on a class that can easily do a marathon run in that time and back for a stealth stomp. That needs a change. Using such a powerful skill should reveal or drop stealth 'as its' casting, not after it hits lol.

The damage cannot come from Stealth..... it reveals before any animation starts. Reading Tooltips is an amazing thing. And there is an orange laser before the bulltet ever fires.

They made sure it had a lot of obvious tells and visuals and that a Thief can’t burst from Stealth with it.

meh, i saw what i saw...tooltip or no

What you saw can’t happen since the skill legitimately reveals you before the skill ever starts the animation or deals the damage. You would know that if you read the Tooltip or played the class at all and used the skill while stealthed. Again Anet made it that way on purpose, with the Laser Tell, the Tell on the projectile trail and then the Skill has audio tells that the targeted player here’s of the Deadeye saying a quote like “One shot one Kill”

The only time that Death’s Judgement could be cast from “Stealth” but that was a Desync Bug and not actually stealth, where the Thief model was in a different location than it physically was, and that was rightfully fixed since it was game breaking in some cases.

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I just made a number of attempts to see if you could make this shot without being revealed. As in trying to use another stealth source as soon as I init the skill and so on. You can get CLOSE to it by using the elite just as you fire, however you still pop into view. If you use the elite prior to firing you get revealed . If you use the elite right after firing there a very brief window where you pop into view and then out. If at extreme range and if you are not aware where the shot taken from a thief could conceivably burn an elite to instantly re-stealth.

That the best answer I can come up with UNLESS there some other bug or trick.

Just for interests sake one of the things I did try was using shadowtrap in the build. Interesting results. You can set this up say 1500 behind you and proceed to kneel and fire. As soon as an enemy gets too close trip it (preferably while stealthed) and you in position for some more shots. Conceivably you could perfrom the same sort of trick with shadowstep although it would be a little more awkward in use.

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What I have been doing to players is exactly what the video above shows. Player not marked, and the player was downed in 1 shot. Some of that is the range in the video, he was fairly close, but was downed before the thief was revealed and there was no "tell" animation. You can read the other threads where the really good thieves are doing the same but using 3 round burst to prevent the tell from longer ranges. But, it is absolutely broken in it's current state. The increased velocity means unless you just "guess" and randomly dodge (since you're not marked to know) you are downed.

The other issue, basilisk venom makes the shot unblockable...a reflect is not a block, and unless they are going to change all the labels, they need to fix that too.

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@Ubi.4136 said:What I have been doing to players is exactly what the video above shows. Player not marked, and the player was downed in 1 shot. Some of that is the range in the video, he was fairly close, but was downed before the thief was revealed and there was no "tell" animation. You can read the other threads where the really good thieves are doing the same but using 3 round burst to prevent the tell from longer ranges. But, it is absolutely broken in it's current state. The increased velocity means unless you just "guess" and randomly dodge (since you're not marked to know) you are downed.

The other issue, basilisk venom makes the shot unblockable...a reflect is not a block, and unless they are going to change all the labels, they need to fix that too.

So what you're saying is the skill is technically working correctly since it's just the built-up malice he has from another target? Or is he getting the marked bonus damage on me even though he has something else marked?

Admittedly I do play a glass cannon build and in the clip I was reckless, but I do generally know my limits on my class and I had all my defensive utilities up. So I was ready to get out if shit hit the fan. But obviously I cannot expect to just go down in 1 hit lol. If I was marked, then I wouldn't be playing like that. But a shot completely out of the blue like that...I had no idea what hit me. It was actually pretty funny because I'd never seen anything like that in GW. Obviously could be a huge problem though if people start catching on and you see it everywhere.

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@Ubi.4136 said:The other issue, basilisk venom makes the shot unblockable...a reflect is not a block, and unless they are going to change all the labels, they need to fix that too.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable"Unblockable is a property of attack skills which prevents the attack from being blocked, and in case of ranged attacks, reflected or otherwise destroyed by effects of skills. Unblockable is also an effect, currently only available from Signet of Might, "Nothing Can Save You!", and Phase Traversal, making attacks for the duration unblockable. Skills that block will be ignored and effects that trigger on blocking will not trigger against unblockable attacks. Unblockable skills can be evaded by dodging or other effects, aside from the ones that cannot be evaded by any means."

I'm not sure why you are nitpicking the wording of a game-wide mechanic that has worked the same since pre-release. A reflect is a block, with added utility.

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@Ubi.4136 said:What I have been doing to players is exactly what the video above shows. Player not marked, and the player was downed in 1 shot. Some of that is the range in the video, he was fairly close, but was downed before the thief was revealed and there was no "tell" animation. You can read the other threads where the really good thieves are doing the same but using 3 round burst to prevent the tell from longer ranges. But, it is absolutely broken in it's current state. The increased velocity means unless you just "guess" and randomly dodge (since you're not marked to know) you are downed.

The other issue, basilisk venom makes the shot unblockable...a reflect is not a block, and unless they are going to change all the labels, they need to fix that too.

There still a "tell"if a target switched and it that purple beam. In the video I think the thief was right up close so there would be little distance for that beam to travel before it hits, thus no seeming tell. So what I think goes on here is malice built gainst another target then target switched maintaining the stacks, the DE gets to point blank range so there no distance for the bullet to travel and the shot made. It akin to a backstab from stealth.

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@Ubi.4136 said:What I have been doing to players is exactly what the video above shows. Player not marked, and the player was downed in 1 shot. Some of that is the range in the video, he was fairly close, but was downed before the thief was revealed and there was no "tell" animation. You can read the other threads where the really good thieves are doing the same but using 3 round burst to prevent the tell from longer ranges. But, it is absolutely broken in it's current state. The increased velocity means unless you just "guess" and randomly dodge (since you're not marked to know) you are downed.

The other issue, basilisk venom makes the shot unblockable...a reflect is not a block, and unless they are going to change all the labels, they need to fix that too.

In the Video the Thief was revealed prior to the Damage, it’s hard to tell since the video pans that direction at the time the damage shows.

https://imgur.com/a/JXx1p

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@SWI.4127 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:What I have been doing to players is exactly what the video above shows. Player not marked, and the player was downed in 1 shot. Some of that is the range in the video, he was fairly close, but was downed before the thief was revealed and there was no "tell" animation. You can read the other threads where the really good thieves are doing the same but using 3 round burst to prevent the tell from longer ranges. But, it is absolutely broken in it's current state. The increased velocity means unless you just "guess" and randomly dodge (since you're not marked to know) you are downed.

The other issue, basilisk venom makes the shot unblockable...a reflect is not a block, and unless they are going to change all the labels, they need to fix that too.

So what you're saying is the skill is technically working correctly since it's just the built-up malice he has from another target? Or is he getting the marked bonus damage on me even though he has something else marked?

Admittedly I do play a glass cannon build and in the clip I was reckless, but I do generally know my limits on my class and I had all my defensive utilities up. So I was ready to get out if kitten hit the fan. But obviously I cannot expect to just go down in 1 hit lol. If I was marked, then I wouldn't be playing like that. But a shot completely out of the blue like that...I had no idea what hit me. It was actually pretty funny because I'd never seen anything like that in GW. Obviously could be a huge problem though if people start catching on and you see it everywhere.

Yes, he killed you using the malice stacks he built up on whatever he has marked. The video clearly shows you are not his marked target yet he got the bonus damage on you. If they are not using stacks of malice for that damage, then it definitely needs to be toned down.

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:What I have been doing to players is exactly what the video above shows. Player not marked, and the player was downed in 1 shot. Some of that is the range in the video, he was fairly close, but was downed before the thief was revealed and there was no "tell" animation. You can read the other threads where the really good thieves are doing the same but using 3 round burst to prevent the tell from longer ranges. But, it is absolutely broken in it's current state. The increased velocity means unless you just "guess" and randomly dodge (since you're not marked to know) you are downed.

The other issue, basilisk venom makes the shot unblockable...a reflect is not a block, and unless they are going to change all the labels, they need to fix that too.

In the Video the Thief was revealed prior to the Damage, it’s hard to tell since the video pans that direction at the time the damage shows.

Yeah, now that I'm on my computer to see it larger, can see he is revealed just before the 24k shows up. But, none of the DJ animation happen. Revealed, 24k damage, player down. Even if this is what Anet is thinking deadeye should be able to do, they should not be getting the bonus damage from malice against targets other than the mark.

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@Ubi.4136 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:What I have been doing to players is exactly what the video above shows. Player not marked, and the player was downed in 1 shot. Some of that is the range in the video, he was fairly close, but was downed before the thief was revealed and there was no "tell" animation. You can read the other threads where the really good thieves are doing the same but using 3 round burst to prevent the tell from longer ranges. But, it is absolutely broken in it's current state. The increased velocity means unless you just "guess" and randomly dodge (since you're not marked to know) you are downed.

The other issue, basilisk venom makes the shot unblockable...a reflect is not a block, and unless they are going to change all the labels, they need to fix that too.

In the Video the Thief was revealed prior to the Damage, it’s hard to tell since the video pans that direction at the time the damage shows.

Yeah, now that I'm on my computer to see it larger, can see he is revealed just before the 24k shows up. But, none of the DJ animation happen. Revealed, 24k damage, player down. Even if this is what Anet is thinking deadeye should be able to do, they should not be getting the bonus damage from malice against targets other than the mark.

Yeah I couldn’t see why the Animations didn’t show, idk if it’s due to him not facing the Deadeye first since the Thief is revealed prior to the War panning that direction since the cast is pretty long and it wasn’t that much time ie anything close to the 3/4 second from a War panning to Thief and the damage hitting, so it could have finished the animation prior to the camera going that direction, or it could be the graphics settings of the Wars game not allowing the effects to show as strongly.

I do know whenever I have been hit by the Death’s Judgement I see the Animations clearly, but I also play completely zoomed out and have the graphics on maximized settings to see Animations/particle effects.

Yea idk if the Death’s Judgement Malice Damage is a Bug since it only states based on Malice stacks the Thief has not specifically against Marked Target. But I wouldn’t be upset if they made it only apply to Marked Target since it will make the overall health of the game better.

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Yeah, the video showed pretty much what I came across except the person was further away and we weren't in the middle of a battle. As mentioned, the laser was visible for a split second and then it was over. I thought the second example I mentioned (when I was actually marked and hit for 29k) was also interesting in that I made attempts to mitigate using a pretty mobile build, attempted to block LoS, etc., but he had enough mobility and stealth to make those attempts much less effective than they'd be against (for example) a longbow ranger.

In any case, my bet is Anet makes malice stacking target specific (which is a big hit vs targets able to stealth) and/or increases the channel time/visual tell. I hope they don't dive too much into the damage to start, but my prediction is they'll do something. I think one data point worth keeping in mind is that most people don't run their Deadeyes like this, which either means people haven't learned how to do it or it's a super small niche. Deadeye really doesn't seem unbalanced though, so I hope the class isn't dumpstered by any fix we should all expect is coming.

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