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Downstate is currently unbalanced yes or no?


Doug.4930

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Seen a few posts about this, thought I'd add my voice to the mix.

Currently my biggest gripe with this game since coming back is how easy it is to revive players who have been downed. Seems very anti competitive that finishing off a downed enemy when outnumbered is often more difficult than outplaying them into downstate to begin with.

I've uploaded this video to emphasis how much downstate plays to the advantage of the team reviving over the team stomping. Personally I think if you go down, then it should be difficult for your allies to get you back into the fight, it should require coordination and healing skills, not just pressing F. Afterall you've already gone down right? Why should the game reward you for this by allowing you to get back into the fight so very easily? Seems to be very little consequences for going down as long as your allies have an index finger.For instance:

In this video I manage to down an enemy scourge while fighting outnumbered. I burn through my cool downs to take him down, I burn one of my essential stun breakers/suriviability tools; shadow step, in order to close the gap ASAP and confirm the kill. I begin stomping and get about 30% through the animation before somebody begins to revive. Enemy is around 68% when they actually start reviving. Despite all this, the SINGLE enemy that was late to the rez is STILL able to revive the player. How is this fair or balanced in any way? Here I am fighting well outnumbered, burned thorough many cool downs to down the enemy, burn through another simply to close the gap for the stomp, begin stomping well before the rez begins and yet im thwarted by an enemy player who presses F. That's it. That is all they do. They press F and they win.

I'm not advocating to remove downstate or anything else that's too extreme, but come on anet throw us few who fight outnumbered a bone... please? Don't even get me started on how impossible it is to double down someone who's running with a support player.

I am curious how the majority of the player base see's this though, am I alone in thinking that going into downstate should be punished a tad more?

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@Clownmug.8357 said:Yes, but this is a casual game mode for the most part, so competitiveness doesn't really matter.

Well when I say competitive I should clarify that I'm mostly talking about balance, which is an essential part of any game casual or not.EDIT: I changed the title to unbalanced for better clarification.

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thats one of the greatest weaknesses of deadeye when outnumbered, its difficult to finish someone. at the same time with stealth you often can down and stomp people before their allies will react. other profession sometimes even profit from people trying to ressurect as that keeps the pressure off them while granting them a good opportunity to pressure all of them.pretty simple: kill the squishy target first unless they have supporter that is aware and doing a proper job, then kill the supporter first. (unless the squishy is soo bad that he doesnt dodge anything, then kill it with downed penalty) if they have 2 decent supporters..well cant get them all, at least you can choose not to fight them as deadeye.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:Yes, but this is a casual game mode for the most part, so competitiveness doesn't really matter.

Well when I say competitive I should clarify that I'm mostly talking about balance, which is an essential part of any game casual or not.EDIT: I changed the title to unbalanced for better clarification.

Well it's balanced for casual gameplay where there can be vast differences in player skill levels.

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Down state handicaping needs to be removed from the game. Your video clearly shows what everyone experiences in WvW or PvP.

  • You waste 3 seconds on a stomp animation doing absolutely nothing BUT being vulnerable to damage (unless you have invulnerabilities to stomp, but that makes you waste a utility for what? for nothing!)
  • The enemy that outnumbers you, can just put AoE damage on top of the down players, if you want to "kill them again", then you need to eat all that damage.

This game is a joke! The fact that down state handicap is still on WvW and PvP just goes to show that this game is for casuals.

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Make stomp take 1-1.5 second. That would give plenty of time for someone to react and possibly interrupt if paying attention but still make it viable to stomp an enemy. I would also increase the damage taken while downed. It shouldn't take more than 3 seconds max of cleaving with autos to finish off a down. I also think you should be given a debuff (20-30 sec?) that if you're downed again with that debuff on you're instantly double downed. Getting downed in PvP should just be a moment at a second chance if you're team mates are paying attention to help. Not several seconds and a second or third chance.

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When someone complains about burst damage especially from a stealth class in this game, the response is bring friends...Now when a person is downed and has friends ressing them, people want to complain about that too...

We don't even see the full fight so can't even judge what kind of fight it was, but all your skills were up other than steal even though you said you burned through cooldowns. Then seeing two others arrive before you even started stomping but you choose to stay and stomp even though you could have just left and still had https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Gust https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows to use, I mean it even looked like you didn't even want to bother stun breaking out with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Haste until you started taking a full hundred blades to the face. (and lets not even try to argue it was half a second and not enough time to react, because this is the same argument people have when attacked from stealth that gets shut down all the time)

Instead you were fully confident you could get away with stomping someone in front of two others in a full enemy camp because of stealth stomping, which by the way is already a bone in outnumbered fights. The scenario wasn't in your favor, you paid the price instead, move on.

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When you see players go down, and then you see other players rush to rez them, then you put extra pressure on the downed. This often causes multiple downs at one time. Resulting in multiple deaths. Resulting in multiple bags.

If you are talking about outnumbered fights where you are attacking 3 or more all by your lonesome then I dunno what to tell ya.

Cannot tell you how many times we've fought blood scourges that drag their downed to them, and a handy dandy phase smash or meteor shower takes them all.

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@"XenesisII.1540" said:When someone complains about burst damage especially from a stealth class in this game, the response is bring friends...Now when a person is downed and has friends ressing them, people want to complain about that too...

We don't even see the full fight so can't even judge what kind of fight it was, but all your skills were up other than steal even though you said you burned through cooldowns. Then seeing two others arrive before you even started stomping but you choose to stay and stomp even though you could have just left and still had https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Gust https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows to use, I mean it even looked like you didn't even want to bother stun breaking out with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Haste until you started taking a full hundred blades to the face. (and lets not even try to argue it was half a second and not enough time to react, because this is the same argument people have when attacked from stealth that gets shut down all the time)

Instead you were fully confident you could get away with stomping someone in front of two others in a full enemy camp because of stealth stomping, which by the way is already a bone in outnumbered fights. The scenario wasn't in your favor, you paid the price instead, move on.

You seemed to have missed my point completely. The fact that I died doesn't matter. The fact that I should have left which is true in hindsight doesn't matter. The fact that I play with 300 ping and can't react as quickly does not matter. The responce to burst damage from a stealth class is not to "bring friends", not sure if you've played dead eye after the nerfs but bring friends Is completely unnecessary. There's a reason thief is put below ranger, warrior, engi and mesmer in the current meta. But as I'm trying to tell you all of this doesn't matter.

The point is the stomp and the rez speed. It is broken that no matter how the fight is played out, what cool downs you use to down your foe, when you go for a stomp on the enemy, the counter play is for the allies (or in this case single ally) of the downed foe to press F. Thats it. Hell, they don't even need to be quick about it, as you can see when I slowed the vid down i was already 30% of the way through the stomp when the enemy started rezing. But are they punished for being slow to rez? No, of course not. Which to me is dumb. There should be more to counter play than just pressing F. You should cleave the body with CC first, maybe drop some passive AOE heals, just SOMETHING. Anything besides simply pressing F. If you go down you should be punished, by the laws of the game you have lost, and if your allies use counter play, then you should have a chance to get back up. But said counter play needs to exist. Smart support plays should be rewarded. Pressing F is not a smart support play. Pressing F should not counter play all the effort and cool downs that were used to down the enemy to begin with. Pressing F is not counter play.

I just want to reiterate that this example is purely how easy it is to rez, and not how good/bad I am at the game. This can be applied to so many situations. Many of them larger team fights.

I'm not looking for extreme fixes here, I just think that if you're fighting with numbers on your side and you go down, then you're team should be on the back foot. They should have to play intelligently in order to get you back into the fight. But in the games current state they don't. They just press F.

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You also only need to press F to stomp, and you can do it in stealth. Daredevils even have instant finisher with their elite, another bone.You could have also done your own cc with shadowgust, although that would have also screwed you.

You were also in stealth when you went for that stomp, they don't know if you were stomping or leaving, why would they just spam aoes and cc's when the only option before them was to res the person? You're playing a game mode where there's like up to 120+ enemies on the map at any given time it's not always going to be 1v1, you took a chance in an outnumbered situation and lost.

In just about every single thief gank thread the qq'ers are told to bring a friend if they can't handle being ganked, this person had two friends show up, you should also have to play intelligently to get out of an outnumbered situation, or were you also planning on killing the other two there plus the camp?

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@XenesisII.1540 said:You also only need to press F to stomp, and you can do it in stealth. Daredevils even have instant finisher with their elite, another bone.You could have also done your own cc with shadowgust, although that would have also screwed you.

You were also in stealth when you went for that stomp, they don't know if you were stomping or leaving, why would they just spam aoes and cc's when the only option before them was to res the person? You're playing a game mode where there's like up to 120+ enemies on the map at any given time it's not always going to be 1v1, you took a chance in an outnumbered situation and lost.

In just about every single thief gank thread the qq'ers are told to bring a friend if they can't handle being ganked, this person had two friends show up, you should also have to play intelligently to get out of an outnumbered situation, or were you also planning on killing the other two there plus the camp?

No, its seems I should have edited the video to only show the stomp, I keep telling you that the fight and my death are irrelevant. If downstate was fixed and I got that stomp, and then died to the others in the camp, I would be 100% satisfied with that result.

The fact that an enemy can be late to begin reviving after doing nothing and then simply pressing F is unbalanced. They make no intelligent decision, no smart play, no thought to predict my movements. All they do is exactly what an NPC would do. Walk to the player and press F and taking their time while doing so. You say they had no idea i was stomping? Then they should be punished for their lack of situational awareness. Any competent player that see's a downed ally knowing a stealth class is nearby would assume they may be stomping. That is a conclusion even an average player could comprehend. The enemy being at 68% hp after iv already begun stomping them, then being revived to 100% before I've completed a stomp that I have already begun is unbalanced in my opinion. Doesn't matter If i was a warrior, or if it was a 2v1 in an open field. The focus of my gripe is the speed at which pressing F can revive a player, and how the counter play of that which is stomping the player is so SO much slower by comparison.

So if you believe that players reviving should SIGNIFICANTLY outpace stomping in every situation then just say so, and we can agree to disagree on that point. Or perhaps you think that outnumbered players shouldn't really be allowed to win in a team based game, then we can disagree on that. But talking about how I played in that clip is irrelevant. Its downstate I'm trying to discuss here.

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@"Doug.4930" said:No, its seems I should have edited the video to only show the stomp, I keep telling you that the fight and my death are irrelevant. If downstate was fixed and I got that stomp, and then died to the others in the camp, I would be 100% satisfied with that result.Would you have stomped him in a 1v1 fight?

Yes or no?

Answer truthfully now.

Because I think we all know the answer to that.

You're posting an example that is incredibly biased toward this specific combat situation with your specific class of choice and your specific build of choice. It's quite possible that a single knockback or interrupt on the resser could have given you the stomp. Maybe you should have used poison. Maybe you should have been a staff stomper and simply pounded them both to submission. Who knows what could have happened with any other player on any other build.

Here is another smallscale video that shows many aspects of downstate: failure to res due to interrupts, 2 way downed, successful res due to bunkering, failure to res due to conditions, insta-stomp by surprise third party, kitten out of luck with last stand and ultimately failure to 2v1 due to being meh.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Doug.4930 said:No, its seems I should have edited the video to only show the stomp, I keep telling you that the fight and my death are irrelevant. If downstate was fixed and I got that stomp, and then died to the others in the camp, I would be 100% satisfied with that result.Would you have stomped him in a 1v1 fight?

Yes or no?

Answer truthfully now.

Because I think we all know the answer to that.

You're posting an example that is
incredibly
biased toward this specific combat situation with your specific class of choice and your specific build of choice. It's quite possible that a single knockback or interrupt on the resser could have given you the stomp. Maybe you should have used poison. Maybe you should have been a staff stomper and simply pounded them both to submission. Who knows what could have happened with any other player on any other build.

Absolutely I would have stomped him 1v1. Any player can get a stomp 1v1. Any build can stomp 1v1. I feel like a broken record player. Downstate favours the team with the numbers. 1v1 means that being outnumbered is not a problem, therefore downstate would not be problem. The problem occurs when you are outnumbered.

Now that I have answered truthfully, Its your turn:Do you think that the speed in which a single non traited player can rez someone by simply pressing F is balanced? Do you believe that the health you start with in downstate is balanced?

Perhaps I should post a video as a warrior next time? As nobody who is pro downstate seems to want to address just how rewarding it is to simply press F, or how quickly pressing F revives the player.

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@Doug.4930 said:Now that I have answered truthfully, Its your turn:Do you think that the speed in which a single non traited player can rez someone by simply pressing F is balanced? Do you believe that the health you start with in downstate is balanced?If we are talking about a 1:1 res? Yep. It's balanced. You got tools to prevent the enemies from doing it, you got tools to delay the res, you got tools to secure the stomp just like players have tools to secure a res or prevent enemies from stomping. Will you always have all the tools? No. You might fail. You might succeed. Just because you brought the wrong tool or failed to use it. Because that's how a class based group combat MMO works.

If it's more people ressing it's another matter. Ever since Anet introduced 1:1 rally, I've thought they should make it 1:1 ressing too (stomping is already 1:1 obviously).

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So basically arguing for no down state then, because you can argue for like a 0.25s or 1s or whatever reduction on stomping or increasing time to res or increasing the amount of people to res etc etc etc people will somehow still run into that situation, was there even any consideration if they had runes or traits for speeding up ressing too?

As a warrior would you really have gone for that stomp with 2 others and a camp surrounding you? or would you have switched to great sword and at least gotten out of that cave.

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