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Elementalist (yet) again being top DPS...


Amineo.8951

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Hey, why don't you buff the other professions to be on par with Weaver in term of DPS? Each has 2 Elite specs now so it's not gonna change anything balance wise, it'll make the game more fun and have more variety in fractals and raids. The same goes for Druid and Chrono being top tier support, specs like Scourge, Firebrand (it's supposed to be a support spec btw yet it's DPS atm, mm'kay) and Herald/Renegade needs much more love in that aspect...

I'm just saying this because of the obligatory "2 Chrono, 2 Druids, 2 PS and 4 Weaver" meta coming soon...

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yes! remove gotl and goe. give rev and guards quickness and alacrity same as chrono. so heavy armor will be tanks like revs. and revs will be relevant. guard should guard the raid group, no? barriers look useless in pve aspect. make other specs to be as strong as needed and nerf fb and weaver dps to others.

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@Feanor.2358 said:Sure. Make a spec which is incredibly reliant on being able to do its rotation on a stationary target, has zero utility and is hard to play also lack damage. Brilliant idea!

I said buff the other specs, I didn't mention a single nerf. Besides, only Sloth, Matthias, Xera and Deimos are truly active, all the other raid bosses are or can be stationary, and there's already a condi Weaver build being experimented that does more damage than Firebrand.

I don't hate Elementalist but I'm very sick of playing it over and over as a DPS spec.

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@Amineo.8951 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Sure. Make a spec which is incredibly reliant on being able to do its rotation on a stationary target, has zero utility and is hard to play also lack damage. Brilliant idea!

I said buff the other specs, I didn't mention a single nerf. Besides, only Sloth, Matthias, Xera and Deimos are truly active, all the other raid bosses are or can be stationary, and there's already a condi Weaver build being experimented that does more damage than Firebrand.

I don't hate Elementalist but I'm very sick of playing it over and over as a DPS spec.

Then don't play it. I play my (now renegade) rev all the time, even pre pof, and constantly out dps a lot of ppl (not all, but a good majority) just because its the class i enjoy and know the best.

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@Amineo.8951 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Sure. Make a spec which is incredibly reliant on being able to do its rotation on a stationary target, has zero utility and is hard to play also lack damage. Brilliant idea!

I said buff the other specs, I didn't mention a single nerf. Besides, only Sloth, Matthias, Xera and Deimos are truly active, all the other raid bosses are or can be stationary, and there's already a condi Weaver build being experimented that does more damage than Firebrand.

I don't hate Elementalist but I'm very sick of playing it over and over as a DPS spec.

Buffing or nerfing doesn't make any difference. If the spec doesn't have any edge, only drawbacks, there'd be no point in playing it.Stationary is a bit tricky. Gorse is normally stationary, but if you don't get distort on the slam and if your group doesn't insta-cc him it does you no good - you still will lose a lot of dps by breaking your rotation to either dodge or not kill yourself on retal.

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@Amineo.8951 said:Hey, why don't you buff the other professions to be on par with Weaver in term of DPS? Each has 2 Elite specs now so it's not gonna change anything balance wise, it'll make the game more fun and have more variety in fractals and raids. The same goes for Druid and Chrono being top tier support, specs like Scourge, Firebrand (it's supposed to be a support spec btw yet it's DPS atm, mm'kay) and Herald/Renegade needs much more love in that aspect...

I'm just saying this because of the obligatory "2 Chrono, 2 Druids, 2 PS and 4 Weaver" meta coming soon...

I honestly don't understand why they continue to nerf other classes with high DPS.

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Oh man, not this complaint again.

For the record, the current posted rotations for Weaver are about as ridiculous as an Engi, and as others have mentioned Weaver's utility is essentially next to nothing if you are shooting for top DPS. At the very least Tempest gave out some boons passively to other team members even with fully damage spec'd.

Weaver being top DPS doesn't surprise: horrible rotation requirements, little to no utility, and being an ele at its core means a strong breeze is all that's required to kill you. Tbh OP, the whole "buff other classes" is the same typical complaint that the community brings to the table because A: Players don't realize how difficult it is to pull of that sort of damage or B: They're just hurt that their own preferred class isn't top DPS. The best example I can give you of an over-the-top class was Firebrand. That class pre-nerf had a huge damage potential but also had a very high utility set at the same time. Naturally, players are gonna hold up the nerf flag because something like that shouldn't. Weaver, in its current iteration, excels at damage at the cost of party contribution.

But as others have mentioned buffing other classes won't do anything except shun out the more difficult classes. Imagine if Firebrand was still a thing. No one would run any other class since Firebrand has equal (if not better DPS) than Weaver but the rotation for Firebrand was much more simplified. It was the same reason why very few people ran engi back in the day when it had top DPS; no one could pull off the rotation.

So, if you want to grab a Weaver thinking you're gonna get top DPS for free, go for it. Let me know how that works out.

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I would argue Firebrand is still a valid choice over Weaver. On many occasions, especially on small hitboxes, you're likely to still end up doing higher dps. Especially if your group isn't perfect in execution.

Personally, I'm sticking with my weaver for the most part since it's my ele main. But I'll be taking my Renegade to tonight's Sabetha and my Mirage to tonight's Matthias. Maybe I'll opt for a Firebrand on Cairn and just for the sake of diversity I could go with a Soulbeast on MO. We'll also have one or two Scourges in the party, at least on some bosses and there's a player in the group who likes both his condi dd and his condi berserker, and another who often plays condi engi. So I guess... each and every class has a place as a viable dps? So what exactly is the fuss about?

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After trying the rotation a bit on the golem and attempting to pug a kc run, I am of the impression that I would rather have pugs not attempt to play weaver unless they are very competent on it. It is a very punishing rotation that is easy to get lost in. Additionally unlike tempest, weaver brings pretty much no support to the table, losing wash away the pain, gale song, cc almost entirely comes down to icebow 5. Also without hardy conduit, weaver is even squishier than tempest which was already squishier than all other classes. It will probably be used in speed runs and high end groups, but I doubt it will be beating other dps classes in the vast majority of all normal runs (excluding KC obviously it does great there damage wise).

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@Feanor.2358 said:So I guess... each and every class has a place as a viable dps? So what exactly is the fuss about?

Ding ding ding

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After trying the rotation a bit on the golem and attempting to pug a kc run, I am of the impression that I would rather have pugs not attempt to play weaver unless they are very competent on it. It is a very punishing rotation that is easy to get lost in.

Ding Ding Ding x2

I'm all for encounters being more favorable towards one class/build style. Recently I've seen plenty of Scourges and Renegades along with Mirages. Firebrand was a dime a dozen pre-nerf but now there are more situational. About the only classes I haven't seen are Spellbreaker, Holosmith, and Deadeye. Spellbreak and Deadeye I imagine due to the classes being too niche. Holosmith I would think would be more used but I can't say I've looked at the number/playstyle.

But I digress...

The note here being regardless of what the damage potential of a class is you still gotta see whether or not a class is in a situation where you can pull off that sort of damage. If not? Go with another build/class that can more easily maintain its damage uptime.

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Its always fun when people that cant reach 25k on golem complain about weaver. Weaver is squishier than tempest (no gale song), requires big, stationary targets to pull strong dps and it's much harder to play on a high level than tempest. It is almost condi engi difficulty. Add to that, u require really nice alacrity and quickness uptime to pull it off and u rely a lot on distorts from your mesmer.

Weaver is high skill, high risk, high reward which most people cant even handle in their dreams. So y, its not OP unless u are already playing at a level where u can pull high numbers on any class. I mean, this is why we cant have good things, people with literally no clue voice nonsense opinions with zero insight just because they saw a qt benchmark. But but but "freedom of speech".

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@Amineo.8951 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Sure. Make a spec which is incredibly reliant on being able to do its rotation on a stationary target, has zero utility and is hard to play also lack damage. Brilliant idea!

I said buff the other specs, I didn't mention a single nerf. Besides, only Sloth, Matthias, Xera and Deimos are truly active, all the other raid bosses are or can be stationary, and there's already a condi Weaver build being experimented that does more damage than Firebrand.

I don't hate Elementalist but I'm very sick of playing it over and over as a DPS spec.

Come on bro... I've been playing these games for almost 20 years now. You should know like anyone else if you say "X class is OP and is top DPS" you know that the devs immediate response is not to bring the OTHER CLASSES in line, but to nerf the "X class" you speak of. If you want Elementalist to get nerfed, keep making threads like this.Devs only have one direction of thinking.

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@CptAurellian.9537 said:A bit lower, I'd say. HoT specs are in the region of 32-35k (small hitboxes) and I don't see any reason why PoF specs should get above that.

To make them more appealing, obviously. Then they'll get toned down over time, just like HoT specs did. Just marketing things.

@zoomborg.9462 said:Its always fun when people that cant reach 25k on golem complain about weaver. Weaver is squishier than tempest (no gale song), requires big, stationary targets to pull strong dps and it's much harder to play on a high level than tempest. It is almost condi engi difficulty. Add to that, u require really nice alacrity and quickness uptime to pull it off and u rely a lot on distorts from your mesmer.

Weaver is high skill, high risk, high reward which most people cant even handle in their dreams. So y, its not OP unless u are already playing at a level where u can pull high numbers on any class. I mean, this is why we cant have good things, people with literally no clue voice nonsense opinions with zero insight just because they saw a qt benchmark. But but but "freedom of speech".

This here exactly. I feel like all the complaints come from people who didn't even try playing the supposedly OP weaver.

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@Joxer.6024 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:But I'll be taking my Renegade to tonight's Sabetha

PLEASE share how this turns out!!!??? Cheers! ;)

It was OK, though not great as I did cannons and was running Kalla for the first time in my life, so I was messing up my rotation all the time. In hindsight I should have just used Mallyx/Jalis as usual, it was quite strong the last time I played it there. But you know, new stuff, gotta try it out. :)

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I wonder if any of these forum warriors here have actually set their foot in raids since release. Seems to me that most people (including Arenanet sadly) draw conclusions based on benchmark values and don't even try out the specs in practice.

I've raided a bit with my team for the past 2 weeks, wanna know what it looked like? It was exactly the same as every week before PoF. People were doing very similar DPS, regardless of the build or spec they were playing. Those who pulled solid numbers before, on HoT specs, pulled solid numbers again on PoF specs. People who played terribly before were still terrible. No spec or build is magical enough to let you do good DPS if you don't follow the rotation or screw up mechanics.

You wanna know the secret of doing top DPS? It's not about playing tempest, weaver, firebrand or anything like that. It's about having the right attitude. PoF hasn't changed that, HoT didn't change that, any of the balance patches hasn't changed that and your build won't change that either. So either accept that and git gud or stop playing DPS and start playing minstrel chrono.

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When talking about weave dps, please keep KC encounter out of it. Similar to math and condi mesmers, the details that makes up for the DPS numbers are very unique to the boss mechanic and don't translate to any other game content, be that other raid encounters, pve, wvw, or pvp.

It should be clear that a class that has drawbacks should also have benefits. Weaver has the lowest health pool, lowest armor, skills that root players, conjure weapons that need to have placement planed and has a timer on it, second to hardest rotation, and time delayed access to mediocre CC. A high dps ceiling is fair. We should all remember that during the time when engi had the highest dps in game, 5 engi was not meta. At some point, increased difficulty and increase dps ceiling will stop translating to become meta for DPS, a point which condi engi achieved.

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I think Weaver's potential DPS should be higher than any class, because in a practical setting, Weaver isn't going to be able to reach it, while other DPS specs will reach their potential DPS much easier. Heck, in my initial Weaver test at a rotation, I barely broke 30k DPS on the golem.

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I think dps balancing is not too bad actually and i agree some specs should do more dps than others because lack of support and difficult mechanics. However I would still like if some power specs would be buffed and more support for some general undertuned classes like:

  • buff all power specs except for thief, ele and guard
  • buff condi mesmer a bit
  • add more aclarity options to rev
  • add quickness options to one of the power specs of any class but thief or guard
  • make heal/support for guard, rev and ele viable

In this case we would have an other option to the chrono/druid meta and every class had a viable power or condi specc.

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@SkullProX.7083 said:When tempest was finally nerfed to a balanced state after being top/best pick for 2 YEARS ON 90% OF BOSSES.... WE GET WEAVER....ptsdAnd firebrand got nerfed, while getting the same dps as weaver.. seemsgood

Firebrand was not getting the same DPS as Weaver.

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