(Spoilers inside) Suspicious issues with Lyssa

[Obliviscaris.6937]

On 12/24/2021 at 12:37 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

One Path Ends pretty much confirms that Anise is Livia's (grand?)daughter. It's not said explicitly, but the analogy is made straight-up, that Anise follows Livia's orders "like a grown child to a parent."

 

Lazarus: Tell me, Livia. Do you have children? Grandchildren? Great-grandchildren?

Livia: I do not.

Lazarus: How disappointing. Your line dies with you. You've wasted lifetimes on me.

Livia: Your dying is worth it.

Lazarus: You've staged your last revolt.

 

Source: Dialogue between Lazarus & Livia during 'The Last Chance', Living World Season 3.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

 

Lazarus: Tell me, Livia. Do you have children? Grandchildren? Great-grandchildren?

Livia: I do not.

Lazarus: How disappointing. Your line dies with you. You've wasted lifetimes on me.

Livia: Your dying is worth it.

Lazarus: You've staged your last revolt.

 

Source: Dialogue between Lazarus & Livia during 'The Last Chance', Living World Season 3.

Unreliable narrator is a thing, you know.

Obviously Livia wouldn't tell her worst enemy who is a sadistic kitten that would gleefully hunt down her family that she has one. She wasn't under the effects of a truth spell/serum/etc.

While it is entirely plausible Livia's telling the truth there, it's equally plausible that she's lying (more likely, I'd say, that she would say she didn't whether or not that was true or false). The interactions later between Livia and the Commander is a bit more telling.

And it's obvious that the Commander doesn't believe Livia's statement there, as after Livia tells Lazarus she doesn't have children, the Commander makes a comparison denoting Anise as Livia's child, to which Livia simply responds with "all the Shining Blade is my family" - which, in a way, also counters Livia's statement to Lazarus.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Obliviscaris.6937]

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Unreliable narrator is a thing, you know.

Obviously Livia wouldn't tell her worst enemy who is a sadistic kitten that would gleefully hunt down her family that she has one.

 

Ah right, it doesn't fit your head-cannon. Carry on.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

22 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

Ah right, it doesn't fit your head-cannon. Carry on.

Despite your very insulting tone, it has nothing to do with "my head-canon" or not.

 

I've not once stated that Livia does as a fact have children. I said, to quote:

It's not said explicitly, but the analogy is made straight-up, that Anise follows Livia's orders "like a grown child to a parent."

And the analogy is made outright:

Livia: (deep breath) You believe the ravings of a lunatic?

<Character name>: I do, actually. It explains why Anise defers to you—like a grown child to a parent.

So like I said:

While it is entirely plausible Livia's telling the truth there, it's equally plausible that she's lying (more likely, I'd say, that she would say she didn't whether or not that was true or false).

I never once said "it is this way and nothing else is true". I said "this is implied, and the Commander by all indication believes it". So honestly, if anything, you seem to be the one refusing to accept other possibilities.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Unreliable narrator is a thing, you know.

Obviously Livia wouldn't tell her worst enemy who is a sadistic kitten that would gleefully hunt down her family that she has one. She wasn't under the effects of a truth spell/serum/etc.

While it is entirely plausible Livia's telling the truth there, it's equally plausible that she's lying (more likely, I'd say, that she would say she didn't whether or not that was true or false). The interactions later between Livia and the Commander is a bit more telling.

And it's obvious that the Commander doesn't believe Livia's statement there, as after Livia tells Lazarus she doesn't have children, the Commander makes a comparison denoting Anise as Livia's child, to which Livia simply responds with "all the Shining Blade is my family" - which, in a way, also counters Livia's statement to Lazarus.

There is literally nothing in her statement that even hints she is lying about not having biological children. Her treatment of the Shining Blade as an adoptive family doesn't counter her statement to Lazarus that she has no actual children or grandchildren.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

6 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Its funny how you're so quick to write paragraphs in pretty much every lore topic refuting anything you dont like as "unconfirmed" constantly yet when it comes to your own interpretations you're willing to claim things with very little supporting evidence are "pretty much confirmed" 

Gatekeeping 

 

 

[Kayberz.5346]

3 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

 

Refuting any theories or speculation others come up with on the grounds that something about it is "unconfirmed" yet not holding themselves to the same standards of bulletproof confirmation when they make their own speculation or interpretations is basically gatekeeping speculation.

They act as if they are the authority on guild wars lore and what is or isn't possible 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Its funny how you're so quick to write paragraphs in pretty much every lore topic refuting anything you dont like as "unconfirmed" constantly yet when it comes to your own interpretations you're willing to claim things with very little supporting evidence are "pretty much confirmed" 

Gatekeeping

I literally presented the exact source material for my statement. Both times.

I didn't write paragraphs because I didn't need to.

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

There is literally nothing in her statement that even hints she is lying about not having biological children. Her treatment of the Shining Blade as an adoptive family doesn't counter her statement to Lazarus that she has no actual children or grandchildren.

As I said, there is that possibility that she wasn't lying to Lazarus.

But if you honestly believe that Livia would say anything but "no" to Lazarus' question, then I don't think you understand how emotions work.

 

Let me put it like this. Someone's been stalking you for a decade. They killed your parents and was imprisoned for that. Now they just showed up and you at gun point. They ask "do you have any family left"? You have a spouse and child.

What do you say? Do you tell them "yes" because it's the truth, or do you say "no" because you don't want them hunting down your spouse and child?

Livia is in that situation. She suffered at the hands of the White Mantle and mursaat dearly in GW1, it's why she joined the Shining Blade. The last of her enemies has her in a death grip and is asking if she has family, with the pretty clear implication that he'd hunt them down afterwards. Do you honestly believe she'd say yes?

 

She's going to say no whether or not she has family. I know I would. I know most people would. Those who wouldn't say no in that situation are either heartless bastards or extremely full of themselves in thinking they have a 100% chance to get out of the situation and stop their enemy.

[Obliviscaris.6937]

17 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Despite your very insulting tone, it has nothing to do with "my head-canon" or not.

 

I've not once stated that Livia does as a fact have children. I said, to quote:

It's not said explicitly, but the analogy is made straight-up, that Anise follows Livia's orders "like a grown child to a parent."

And the analogy is made outright:

Livia: (deep breath) You believe the ravings of a lunatic?

<Character name>: I do, actually. It explains why Anise defers to you—like a grown child to a parent.

So like I said:

While it is entirely plausible Livia's telling the truth there, it's equally plausible that she's lying (more likely, I'd say, that she would say she didn't whether or not that was true or false).

I never once said "it is this way and nothing else is true". I said "this is implied, and the Commander by all indication believes it". So honestly, if anything, you seem to be the one refusing to accept other possibilities.

I have this tone because just about everyone is tired of the mental gymnastics that you put yourself and everyone else through. There's no critical thinking to be had when it's literally stated "I do not have children or grandchildren".

Writers put that into the story so people don't come up with crackpot theories like "Anise is Livia's grand-daughter. Basically. It's like, implied. Sort of". It's not.

Livia isn't going to hide jack squat from someone she's literally about to kill. There's no deception involved here. It's not that deep, it's never been that deep.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

51 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

I have this tone because just about everyone is tired of the mental gymnastics that you put yourself and everyone else through. There's no critical thinking to be had when it's literally stated "I do not have children or grandchildren".

Writers put that into the story so people don't come up with crackpot theories like "Anise is Livia's grand-daughter. Basically. It's like, implied. Sort of". It's not.

Livia isn't going to hide jack squat from someone she's literally about to kill. There's no deception involved here. It's not that deep, it's never been that deep.

1) So it's not okay to suggest Anise is Livia's daughter, with supporting evidence, but it's okay to proclaim Anise is Lyssa's half with Jennah? Okay.

2) Livia was being choked to death. She was not exactly in a position of "literally about to kill".

3) I see you're still ignoring the Commander's own words, taking Livia's as absolute proof despite the fact ArenaNet loves to use unreliable narrator and presents, not even 5 minutes later, an alternative to the narrator of Livia.

 

There's no mental gymnastics involved. It's just you refusing to see the possibility of other outcomes. And not only that, but I'm merely presenting a theory and admitting that it could very well be wrong, while you're saying "no it's this and nothing else". Which is ironic when I am the one being claimed to be "gatekeeping".

Edited December 28, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kayberz.5346]

23 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

1) So it's not okay to suggest Anise is Livia's daughter, with supporting evidence, but it's okay to proclaim Anise is Lyssa's half with Jennah? Okay.

2) Livia was being choked to death. She was not exactly in a position of "literally about to kill".

3) I see you're still ignoring the Commander's own words, taking Livia's as absolute proof despite the fact ArenaNet loves to use unreliable narrator and presents, not even 5 minutes later, an alternative to the narrator of Livia.

 

There's no mental gymnastics involved. It's just you refusing to see the possibility of other outcomes. And not only that, but I'm merely presenting a theory and admitting that it could very well be wrong, while you're saying "no it's this and nothing else". Which is ironic when I am the one being claimed to be "gatekeeping".

You consistently have done the very thing you're accusing him of doing for YEARS on these forums.

Kind of ironic

People speculate on all kinds of things on these forums and are many times later proven correct and you almost always come in with some multi paragraph post picking apart everything you dont like with your own interpretations of the lore to claim why it isn't possible or doesn't  make sense.

Arguing semantics and being needlessly contrarian all the time

 

"ACKCHYUALLY......"

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

You consistently have done the very thing you're accusing him of doing for YEARS on these forums.

Kind of ironic

People speculate on all kinds of things on these forums and are many times later proven correct and you almost always come in with some multi paragraph post picking apart everything you dont like with your own interpretations of the lore to claim why it isn't possible or doesn't  make sense.

Arguing semantics and being needlessly contrarian all the time

 

"ACKCHYUALLY......"

 

 

If the mods close this thread, y'all will only have yourselves to blame.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid attacking each other.

Regards.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 12/24/2021 at 3:37 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

One Path Ends pretty much confirms that Anise is Livia's (grand?)daughter. It's not said explicitly, but the analogy is made straight-up, that Anise follows Livia's orders "like a grown child to a parent."

And it's not like Jennah's someone who can be easily replaced, esp. with a team of mesmers and other soldiers watching her at all times.

Anise and Jennah may be "powerful mesmers" but they're nowhere near god-level or even demigod level.

 

 

As for "Lyssa giving Balthazar the mirror". The fact Balthazar went to Siren's Landing to hide the aspect of Lazarus so that his disguise wasn't foiled, but wasn't disguised when he showed up there, indicates that he didn't have the mirror there - he looted more than just his own Reliquary, so he likely got the mirror from Lyssa's reliquary in Siren's Landing, and not from Lyssa herself.

There are no clues or evidence (within the in-game dialogue or environment) to suggest that Balthazar looted Lyssa's reliquary.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Leo.3428]

On 12/23/2021 at 7:04 PM, Ninutra.7926 said:

Now, I don't know how credible a description of a legendary trinket is, but this, again, emphasises Lyssa's relation to Balthazar. And that the gods probably don't know of his death.

I had always assumed that the six had some Olympian Mist Twitter for sharing gossip about cosmic events and planetary experiments and could not miss so big a thing unless they went full hermit. Kormir is aware of at least the possibility of it, right?

[maxwelgm.4315]

11 hours ago, Leo.3428 said:

I had always assumed that the six had some Olympian Mist Twitter for sharing gossip about cosmic events and planetary experiments and could not miss so big a thing unless they went full hermit. Kormir is aware of at least the possibility of it, right?

 

This is a shaky part of lore IMO. I don't think the writers for PoF did a good job with the whole "the gods just went really far away" thing. And that's simply because the gods had (have?) direct access to the Hall of Heroes which is the center of The Rift. The Rift itself being the nexus that literally connects every point of the Mists in both time and space - the center of GW's multiverse. That means they simply cannot be "too far" unless they somehow purposely cut access to the Rift from themselves. And being that they are vessels of magic and not living beings, this filtering of their particular teleportation capabilities would have to be explicitly mentioned even if not explained. Since Hall of Chains raid and Shadow Behemoth events also exist, not even to mention Aetherblades and the Consortium, we may also infer the Rift is not really closed off at all, the Mists still being very much accessible even to random Bookahs that sell snake oil. Therefore, by GW's own worldbuilding the gods should be able to feel the death of Balthazar but choose to ignore it.

 

In fact, the gods also chose to ignore Kralkatorrik tearing apart their previous realms and merging all of spacetime into itself.  We had an Elder Dragon devouring the Mists and the divine magic beings with access to the Rift didn't bat an eye - the explanation being they went "so, so far away" when they are connected by definition to every other point in the multiverse through the Rift. Ugh. It only gets worse the more you think about the human gods: Kormir let her realm fall to torment (and so this whole stuff was not intrinsic to Abbaddon in the end too), Grenth allowed the ressurging of Dhuum and apparently didn't bother to check if Desmina could even tank the being who wanted to eat all souls of the Underworld, and so on for the other gods as well. If they really closed off their own connection to the Rift, is that going to fall into darkness too? The only possible explanation is Anet didn't want to write any single extra line involving the human gods directly, so they just wrote "no more gods" and that's it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 12/28/2021 at 5:47 PM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

There are no clues or evidence (within the in-game dialogue or environment) to suggest that Balthazar looted Lyssa's reliquary.

There is, but it only becomes notable when you take dev comments on reddit into consideration as well.

First, when the Commander shows up in Siren's Landing, we talk to Dagonet, and this is the conversation:

<Character name>: Sorry to be abrupt, but I'm looking for Balthazar or the Eye of Janthir, a floating...

Firstborn Dagonet: Oh, we know what it is. They've both been here, but you cannot follow where they went.

If asura:

<Character name>: Why for the Eternal Alchemy can't I?

If charr:

<Character name>: Why not?

If human:

<Character name>: What's the problem?

If sylvari:

<Character name>: Is there a problem?

If norn:

<Character name>: What's in the way?

King Reza: The main reliquary—Abaddon's—is locked down.

Firstborn Dagonet: Only the Reliquary of Melandru is illuminated. It was like that when we arrived, so we're studying it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/On_Orrian_Shores#At_Siren.27s_Landing

Later, at Balthazar's Reliquary, we have this dialogue:

Queen Yasamin: My lord Balthazar has returned! (laugh) I am overjoyed!

If asura:

<Character name>: It is...fascinating, isn't it?

If charr:

<Character name>: It's unsettling.

If human or sylvari:

<Character name>: It is...amazing news, isn't it?

If norn:

<Character name>: It makes you think, doesn't it?

Queen Yasamin: The best news of all. Soon Orr will be ours and we can coax the gods back. Balthazar was a sight for sore eyes.

<Character name>: So you saw him? Here?

Queen Yasamin: Oh yes. He came to visit his reliquary, and I was the first to greet him.

Queen Yasamin: He was gracious and asked me to maintain the reliquary, but when he left, it went still.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Flow_of_Magic#Dialogue

Additionally, we have this comment from a dev on reddit which expands a bit on Balthazar's actions:

Balthazar was keeping the last aspect in a safe hiding spot to prevent the real Lazarus from being summoned and ruining his ruse.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6pj6wm/one_path_ends_devs_here_ask_us_anything/dkprbzm/

This all shows that Balthazar showed up without a disguise, for the purpose of maintaining said disguise - which doesn't make sense unless he doesn't have the disguise yet. After all, if he could pretend to be Lazarus while hiding an Aspect of Lazarus, why wouldn't he?

The fact he visited to prevent his disguise from being found out also tells us that Balthazar visited quite some time ago - before Episode 2 at the very least, as visiting post-Flashpoint would be a moot point (disguise foiled already) and he was being shadowed by Marjory from Episode 2 until his disguise was foiled..

We also know from the story that he visited at least two Reliquaries - his own and Abaddon's - why not visit Lyssa's or another's as well? It's even possible the mirror came from his own or Abaddon's reliquary, rather than Lyssa's.

 

So the question is: if he had Lyssa's Mirror, why didn't he show up in Orr disguised already?

 

Occam's Razor, imo, would be: "he didn't have Lyssa's Mirror yet".

 

Of course, all of this flies in the face of Kormir's statement in PoF, that he entered Tyria disguised already and the truth wasn't figured out until it's too late. But I think an overzealous ghost, sylvari, and not-so-overzealous ghost proclaiming to see Balthazar while he took care his disguise wasn't foiled, is far more reliable than Kormir saying he was disguised the whole time.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

 

This is a shaky part of lore IMO. I don't think the writers for PoF did a good job with the whole "the gods just went really far away" thing. And that's simply because the gods had (have?) direct access to the Hall of Heroes which is the center of The Rift. The Rift itself being the nexus that literally connects every point of the Mists in both time and space - the center of GW's multiverse. That means they simply cannot be "too far" unless they somehow purposely cut access to the Rift from themselves.

In regards to the Rift bit - original design for Path of Fire's plot had us visiting the Hall of Heroes from the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, where we would then get to Kormir's Sanctum in the Realm of Torment - presumably this means that Sunspear dial puzzle wouldn't have existed if they kept this idea in. And similar to the Sanctum, players would be able to revisit the Hall of Heroes. It was ultimately cut, but it does give the implication that the Six Gods no longer maintain a presence in or connection to The Rift.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0gvkl/

Quote

And being that they are vessels of magic and not living beings, this filtering of their particular teleportation capabilities would have to be explicitly mentioned even if not explained. Since Hall of Chains raid and Shadow Behemoth events also exist, not even to mention Aetherblades and the Consortium, we may also infer the Rift is not really closed off at all, the Mists still being very much accessible even to random Bookahs that sell snake oil. Therefore, by GW's own worldbuilding the gods should be able to feel the death of Balthazar but choose to ignore it.

It should be denoted that simply accessing the Mists doesn't mean one's accessing the Rift.

In GW1, before reaching the Rift, players had to go through The Underworld. So Hall of Chains and Shadow Behemoth events are probably closer to Tyria than the Rift is (incidentally, this means that the players would "go too far" and backtrack in the original layout of the story for visiting Kormir - but this makes a bit of sense, as the Commander would be following a historic path, rather than the shortcut we ended up getting to use).

Quote

In fact, the gods also chose to ignore Kralkatorrik tearing apart their previous realms and merging all of spacetime into itself.  We had an Elder Dragon devouring the Mists and the divine magic beings with access to the Rift didn't bat an eye - the explanation being they went "so, so far away" when they are connected by definition to every other point in the multiverse through the Rift.

Kralkatorrik was still localized. He was only assaulting the Underworld, Realm of Torment, and other afterlives of Tyria. He hadn't even reached the Mists borderlands. Though it's curious he managed to brand some Riftstalkers that originate from another world (and pull in the mysterious mushrooms also from another world - may or may not be the same other world as Riftstalkers came from), he wouldn't have been so far as threatening The Rift yet. So even if the distance was ultimately "Tyria->Tyrian Realms->Tyrian Borderlands->Rift->Otherworldly Borderlands->Otherworldly Realms->Otherworld" if Kralkatorrik is in "Tyrian Realms" and Six Gods are in "Otherworld", that's quite the distance - and that's assuming they have access to the Rift.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Mad Queen Malafide.7512]

It seems especially odd that Bathazar would curse Kormir (the newest of the 6), before cursing Lyssa, who is one of the original gods of Tyria. The dialog strongly implies that he is intentionally leaving Lyssa out. I do not believe it is a mistake on anet's part.

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 12/20/2021 at 1:18 PM, Kayberz.5346 said:

Completely baseless speculation:

Perhaps Balthazar and lyssa at some point became lovers, and perhaps their offspring is the one that replaced Balthazar as a god

Although i dont know exactly how that would work with lyssa technically being 2 entities, but who knows

A threesome obviously.

On 12/20/2021 at 1:18 PM, Kayberz.5346 said:

Theres definitely "something" going on there that anet is deliberately teasing at

Probably unrelated, but queen Jennahs unexplored past and her seeming to be one of the most powerful mesmers we've ever seen before for no apparent reason was always kinda fishy 

Now that is a lovely idea. Goddess of deception 'left' Tyria but is secretly still guiding the human kingdom. I'd love to see that Living World episode. But really I just want to see the beyond beautiful twins on screen, along with the rest of the gods at some point.

I really liked that we got to see Balthazar, and Kormir in her Goddess form. Seeing the rest either in EoD or the follow up LW season would be a great way to close out the story of GW2. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 1/3/2022 at 9:44 AM, Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

It seems especially odd that Bathazar would curse Kormir (the newest of the 6), before cursing Lyssa, who is one of the original gods of Tyria. The dialog strongly implies that he is intentionally leaving Lyssa out. I do not believe it is a mistake on anet's part.

Devs confirmed that Balthazar not cursing Lyssa was intentional.

What the intended reason for the lack of cursing remains a mystery. But Kormir does call Lyssa out - twice - in relation to banishing Balthazar and leaving Tyria.

[Mad Queen Malafide.7512]

One would almost think that there is some sort of romantic connection between the two...

Edited January 7, 2022 by Mad Queen Malafide.7512

[DaFishBob.6518]

On 12/27/2021 at 9:13 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

1) So it's not okay to suggest Anise is Livia's daughter, with supporting evidence, but it's okay to proclaim Anise is Lyssa's half with Jennah? Okay.

2) Livia was being choked to death. She was not exactly in a position of "literally about to kill".

3) I see you're still ignoring the Commander's own words, taking Livia's as absolute proof despite the fact ArenaNet loves to use unreliable narrator and presents, not even 5 minutes later, an alternative to the narrator of Livia.

 

There's no mental gymnastics involved. It's just you refusing to see the possibility of other outcomes. And not only that, but I'm merely presenting a theory and admitting that it could very well be wrong, while you're saying "no it's this and nothing else". Which is ironic when I am the one being claimed to be "gatekeeping".

I just want to point out that you're wrong on point 2. Livia was not getting choked to death when Lazarus was asking the question and I think you're mixing the middle of the fight with the end.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Last_Chance

 

Spoiler

 

After 3 aspects have been killed and 2 are shielded:

Livia: Those shields... I have an idea. Cover me!

Lazarus: So ungrateful. I saved Kryta from the charr. Do you not remember?

Livia: I remember everything. You didn't save us. You enslaved us.

<Character name>: Kerida! Livia! Focus!

Lazarus: Tell me, Livia. Do you have children? Grandchildren? Great-grandchildren?

Livia: I do not.

Lazarus: How disappointing. Your line dies with you. You've wasted lifetimes on me.

Livia: Your dying is worth it.

Lazarus: You've staged your last revolt.

When Lazarus' health reaches 0:

Livia: I watched the titans tear your brethren apart—one by one! I will rejoice at your death rattle!

Lazarus: Witch! You could not slay me then, and you will not slay me now!

Lazarus: I made a promise to your ancestors! I will have my day!

Lazarus: You...are not immortal.

Livia: (choking)

Lazarus: It was never going to end any other way.

Livia: (choking)

Lazarus: Accursed human!

Livia: (choking)

Lazarus: I have not forgotten the insults of the past! I will not forget this!

Livia: (choking)

Lazarus: Your people bring on their own suffering, generation after generation.

Livia: (choking)

 

Also a bit O/T but I seem to remember you having a belief that Councillor Haia should be dead by now based on what Councillor Flax and the others had to say after saving them from the VAL-A golems.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnum_Opus

 

If you still believe that, wouldn't it be a good idea to re-evaluate how reliable those statements are about future events?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 1/7/2022 at 8:33 PM, DaFishBob.6518 said:

Also a bit O/T but I seem to remember you having a belief that Councillor Haia should be dead by now based on what Councillor Flax and the others had to say after saving them from the VAL-A golems.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnum_Opus

 

If you still believe that, wouldn't it be a good idea to re-evaluate how reliable those statements are about future events?

It's more that the implication was very, very much there, and on top of that Haia doesn't show up in any Council instance (until S3) just like all personal story characters who die or have optional-fates never show up in instances even if they should. It's not hard to imagine that this was a slip up by ANet, as this would be the third time a "dead character" was brought back to life.

Eitel the Unlovable was killed in the personal story, then inexplicably came back in HoT as Cin Fursarai's bodyguard (and yet didn't show up in S3E4, when Cin does and in an active warzone...).

Similarly, Morning very explicitly dies in S2E1, but shows up again in Festival of the Four Winds - in this case, the dev made note that he made a mistake and just proclaimed "it's a different Morning" as the 'fix' (instead of renaming the NPC or something).

 

I don't get why you're bringing that up, however, given that I've always established that unreliable narrator is a thing. I've had to bring it up time and time again as people mistakenly believed Thrulnn the Lost wholeheartedly, despite every other source about the fall of the jotun tells a different (and the same different) story about it. In fact, I'm right here suggesting that Livia is the unreliable narrator, rather than a reliable one - I'm suggesting that she's probably lying to Lazarus (because that makes sense) and the Commander draws a conclusion that contradicts Livia's statement.

 

I'll admit I got the timing of Livia saying it wrong, but it is still towards her mortal enemy who would gleefully murder her family, and she has no guarantee that Lazarus won't escape. So her lying about having children still makes equally as much sense.

[DaFishBob.6518]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's more that the implication was very, very much there, and on top of that Haia doesn't show up in any Council instance (until S3) just like all personal story characters who die or have optional-fates never show up in instances even if they should. It's not hard to imagine that this was a slip up by ANet, as this would be the third time a "dead character" was brought back to life.

Ah that's what I missed when remembering that. I just thought I'd bring it up again since all this talk of unreliable narrator makes me wonder why you may have actually trusted the words of Councillor Flax who to me is meant to represent the head of an overly stiff and bureaucratic governing body that can't really react to serious threats in a timely and appropriate manner. To me, isolated from those other instances you brought up, Haia still being alive makes sense due to how she apparently was the most successful at nearly eliminating the rest of the members and is known to be extremely careful in not leaving any evidence and likely any openings to attack or eject her.