Revenge Counter vs Pulsating Pestilence, how is this fair?

[witcher.3197]

Pulsating Pestilence is a revenant GM trait that does the following:

Copy 3 conditions to enemies240 radius10s CD

Revenge Counter, warrior GM trait:

Copy 5 conditions to enemiesFull Counter damage increased by 20%2s Resistance300 radius6.5s CD

Sure legend swap is instant, but still.

[choovanski.5462]

idk why that trait was nerfed so much tbh

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

You added a second trait from another spec line into the mix, Full counter has a 8 second cd.

[witcher.3197]

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:You added a second trait from another spec line into the mix, Full counter has a 8 second cd.

You're right, but everyone takes that CD reduction trait anyways.

[kKagari.6804]

Well everyone takes invocation so don't forget the stunbreak and the cleanse on swap.

[witcher.3197]

@kKagari.6804 said:Well everyone takes invocation so don't forget the stunbreak and the cleanse on swap.

This is a condi trait and condi revs don't take Invocation.. I know you are here to blindly defend warrior and say this because I factored in another warrior trait which reduces full counter CD - yes recharge reduction makes this trait indirectly stronger. Invocation doesn't make rev trait any stronger.

[kKagari.6804]

@witcher.3197 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:Well everyone takes invocation so don't forget the stunbreak and the cleanse on swap.

This is a condi trait and condi revs don't take Invocation.. I know you are here to blindly defend warrior and say this because I factored in another warrior trait which reduces full counter CD - yes recharge reduction makes this trait indirectly stronger. Invocation doesn't make rev trait any stronger.

You've presented a biased argument, and you know it.

[witcher.3197]

@kKagari.6804 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:Well everyone takes invocation so don't forget the stunbreak and the cleanse on swap.

This is a condi trait and condi revs don't take Invocation.. I know you are here to blindly defend warrior and say this because I factored in another warrior trait which reduces full counter CD - yes recharge reduction makes this trait indirectly stronger. Invocation doesn't make rev trait any stronger.

You've presented a biased argument, and you know it.

How?

[kKagari.6804]

I'm the second person to point out that you've casually added another whole trait line to bolster your argument. When I play spellbreaker I run strength and defense, I don't take discipline. You could have easily compared this apples for apples but no, you chose to make it biased.

Core revenant would definitely take invocation if they were running condition. At which point the legend swap would be a stunbreak, which makes it pretty good. And you know what? Full Counter needs adrenaline, on top of cooldown. They aren't the same.

You also need to trigger Full Counter for it to copy, there's no mechanic associated with that for simply swapping a legend.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

@kKagari.6804 said:I'm the second person to point out that you've casually added another whole trait line to bolster your argument. When I play spellbreaker I run strength and defense, I don't take discipline. You could have easily compared this apples for apples but no, you chose to make it biased.

not to mention they are totally different.Pulsating requires the user to just invoke a legend, the failure rate is 0, does not stop the rev from attacking, has no needed buildup from their class resource and does not have to have the enemy activate it for them.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@kKagari.6804 said:I'm the second person to point out that you've casually added another whole trait line to bolster your argument. When I play spellbreaker I run strength and defense, I don't take discipline. You could have easily compared this apples for apples but no, you chose to make it biased.

Core revenant would definitely take invocation if they were running condition. At which point the legend swap would be a stunbreak, which makes it pretty good. And you know what? Full Counter needs adrenaline, on top of cooldown. They aren't the same.

You also need to trigger Full Counter for it to copy, there's no mechanic associated with that for simply swapping a legend.

I'll be the first person to point out that not only is this a PvP trait, and that you don't run core Revenant in PvP. For condi, you run Corruption, Inocation/Retribution, and Herald, an elite. The option of Retribution vs Invocation depends on if you want to be more bulky and have some access to stability. Bringing up the fact that Empty Vessel breaks stun on swap has nothing to do with Pulsating Pestilence is pointless since it has nothing to do with anything; you're doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Condition copy does -not- cleanse conditions, it only mirrors them, and saying that there's no mechanic involved with swapping legends...what? That's Revenants entire class mechanic. You swap for energy; you swap for your second legend, and in this case to copy conditions.

Using this trait is often a death sentence as Revenant is far weaker to condi than Warrior could hope to be, and the best way to deal with condi, aside from Ventari, is to camp Mallyx and try to maintain resistance, which occupies all of your energy; swap legends when you've been condi bombed and see how fast you crumble, successful copy or not. The risk involved with each of these traits is far greater for the Revenant while the payout is significantly lower, not only when you look at the traits apples to apples, but also when you realize that you got FC to proc as well, giving you all the benefits of that skill which is also greater than legend swapping is.

[kKagari.6804]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:I'm the second person to point out that you've casually added another whole trait line to bolster your argument. When I play spellbreaker I run strength and defense, I don't take discipline. You could have easily compared this apples for apples but no, you chose to make it biased.

Core revenant would definitely take invocation if they were running condition. At which point the legend swap would be a stunbreak, which makes it pretty good. And you know what? Full Counter needs adrenaline, on top of cooldown. They aren't the same.

You also need to trigger Full Counter for it to copy, there's no mechanic associated with that for simply swapping a legend.

I'll be the first person to point out that not only is this a PvP trait, and that you don't run core Revenant in PvP. For condi, you run Corruption, Inocation/Retribution, and Herald, an elite. The option of Retribution vs Invocation depends on if you want to be more bulky and have some access to stability. Bringing up the fact that Empty Vessel breaks stun on swap has nothing to do with Pulsating Pestilence is pointless since it has nothing to do with anything; you're doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Condition copy does -not- cleanse conditions, it only mirrors them, and saying that there's no mechanic involved with swapping legends...what? That's Revenants entire class mechanic. You swap for energy; you swap for your second legend, and in this case to copy conditions.

Using this trait is often a death sentence as Revenant is far weaker to condi than Warrior could hope to be, and the best way to deal with condi, aside from Ventari, is to camp Mallyx and try to maintain resistance, which occupies all of your energy; swap legends when you've been condi bombed and see how fast you crumble, successful copy or not. The risk involved with each of these traits is far greater for the Revenant while the payout is significantly lower, not only when you look at the traits apples to apples, but also when you realize that you got FC to proc as well, giving you all the benefits of that skill which is also greater than legend swapping is.

I'm saying there is no on-hit mechanic associated to swapping a legend, like there is with full counter. You can't get the benefits of full counter if it isn't triggered.

[Jzaku.9765]

You're also comparing a trait line that supports condition damage gameplay against an elite specialization that's incredibly awful at it so ??

[Xolas.9781]

This thread is ridiculous. So many wasted posts about a literal 1.5 second difference in cd.

Let's pretend OP wrote the correct 8 seconds without trait instead of 6.5. His point and comparison still stands. One trait is overloaded

[kKagari.6804]

@Xolas.9781 said:This thread is ridiculous. So many wasted posts about a literal 1.5 second difference in cd.

Let's pretend OP wrote the correct 8 seconds without trait instead of 6.5. His point and comparison still stands. One trait is overloaded

Haha, well, now that you put it that way. I still don't agree though, it may be overloaded but the comparison doesn't make sense either.

[Zenith.7301]

@kKagari.6804 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:I'm the second person to point out that you've casually added another whole trait line to bolster your argument. When I play spellbreaker I run strength and defense, I don't take discipline. You could have easily compared this apples for apples but no, you chose to make it biased.

Core revenant would definitely take invocation if they were running condition. At which point the legend swap would be a stunbreak, which makes it pretty good. And you know what? Full Counter needs adrenaline, on top of cooldown. They aren't the same.

You also need to trigger Full Counter for it to copy, there's no mechanic associated with that for simply swapping a legend.

I'll be the first person to point out that not only is this a PvP trait, and that you don't run core Revenant in PvP. For condi, you run Corruption, Inocation/Retribution, and Herald, an elite. The option of Retribution vs Invocation depends on if you want to be more bulky and have some access to stability. Bringing up the fact that Empty Vessel breaks stun on swap has nothing to do with Pulsating Pestilence is pointless since it has nothing to do with anything; you're doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Condition copy does -not- cleanse conditions, it only mirrors them, and saying that there's no mechanic involved with swapping legends...what? That's Revenants entire class mechanic. You swap for energy; you swap for your second legend, and in this case to copy conditions.

Using this trait is often a death sentence as Revenant is far weaker to condi than Warrior could hope to be, and the best way to deal with condi, aside from Ventari, is to camp Mallyx and try to maintain resistance, which occupies all of your energy; swap legends when you've been condi bombed and see how fast you crumble, successful copy or not. The risk involved with each of these traits is far greater for the Revenant while the payout is significantly lower, not only when you look at the traits apples to apples, but also when you realize that you got FC to proc as well, giving you all the benefits of that skill which is also greater than legend swapping is.

I'm saying there is no on-hit mechanic associated to swapping a legend, like there is with full counter. You can't get the benefits of full counter if it isn't triggered.

lol like it's hard to get full counter triggered.

[kKagari.6804]

@Zenith.7301 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:I'm the second person to point out that you've casually added another whole trait line to bolster your argument. When I play spellbreaker I run strength and defense, I don't take discipline. You could have easily compared this apples for apples but no, you chose to make it biased.

Core revenant would definitely take invocation if they were running condition. At which point the legend swap would be a stunbreak, which makes it pretty good. And you know what? Full Counter needs adrenaline, on top of cooldown. They aren't the same.

You also need to trigger Full Counter for it to copy, there's no mechanic associated with that for simply swapping a legend.

I'll be the first person to point out that not only is this a PvP trait, and that you don't run core Revenant in PvP. For condi, you run Corruption, Inocation/Retribution, and Herald, an elite. The option of Retribution vs Invocation depends on if you want to be more bulky and have some access to stability. Bringing up the fact that Empty Vessel breaks stun on swap has nothing to do with Pulsating Pestilence is pointless since it has nothing to do with anything; you're doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Condition copy does -not- cleanse conditions, it only mirrors them, and saying that there's no mechanic involved with swapping legends...what? That's Revenants entire class mechanic. You swap for energy; you swap for your second legend, and in this case to copy conditions.

Using this trait is often a death sentence as Revenant is far weaker to condi than Warrior could hope to be, and the best way to deal with condi, aside from Ventari, is to camp Mallyx and try to maintain resistance, which occupies all of your energy; swap legends when you've been condi bombed and see how fast you crumble, successful copy or not. The risk involved with each of these traits is far greater for the Revenant while the payout is significantly lower, not only when you look at the traits apples to apples, but also when you realize that you got FC to proc as well, giving you all the benefits of that skill which is also greater than legend swapping is.

I'm saying there is no on-hit mechanic associated to swapping a legend, like there is with full counter. You can't get the benefits of full counter if it isn't triggered.

lol like it's hard to get full counter triggered.

Yes, but the requirement is still there, so is the resource requirement. Why should every skill be balanced around the lowest common denominators?

You could run into a teamfight and have it pop result but you could also be equally hamstrung in a 1v1 by it not going off.

There's also a guaranteed window of time to dodge after the FC is triggered, but it's not worthwhile to discuss that, it just enters ifs and buts territory.

[Zenith.7301]

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:I'm the second person to point out that you've casually added another whole trait line to bolster your argument. When I play spellbreaker I run strength and defense, I don't take discipline. You could have easily compared this apples for apples but no, you chose to make it biased.

Core revenant would definitely take invocation if they were running condition. At which point the legend swap would be a stunbreak, which makes it pretty good. And you know what? Full Counter needs adrenaline, on top of cooldown. They aren't the same.

You also need to trigger Full Counter for it to copy, there's no mechanic associated with that for simply swapping a legend.

I'll be the first person to point out that not only is this a PvP trait, and that you don't run core Revenant in PvP. For condi, you run Corruption, Inocation/Retribution, and Herald, an elite. The option of Retribution vs Invocation depends on if you want to be more bulky and have some access to stability. Bringing up the fact that Empty Vessel breaks stun on swap has nothing to do with Pulsating Pestilence is pointless since it has nothing to do with anything; you're doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Condition copy does -not- cleanse conditions, it only mirrors them, and saying that there's no mechanic involved with swapping legends...what? That's Revenants entire class mechanic. You swap for energy; you swap for your second legend, and in this case to copy conditions.

Using this trait is often a death sentence as Revenant is far weaker to condi than Warrior could hope to be, and the best way to deal with condi, aside from Ventari, is to camp Mallyx and try to maintain resistance, which occupies all of your energy; swap legends when you've been condi bombed and see how fast you crumble, successful copy or not. The risk involved with each of these traits is far greater for the Revenant while the payout is significantly lower, not only when you look at the traits apples to apples, but also when you realize that you got FC to proc as well, giving you all the benefits of that skill which is also greater than legend swapping is.

I'm saying there is no on-hit mechanic associated to swapping a legend, like there is with full counter. You can't get the benefits of full counter if it isn't triggered.

lol like it's hard to get full counter triggered.

Yes, but the requirement is still there, so is the resource requirement. Why should every skill be balanced around the lowest common denominators?

You could run into a teamfight and have it pop result but you could also be equally hamstrung in a 1v1 by it not going off.

There's also a guaranteed window of time to dodge after the FC is triggered, but it's not worthwhile to discuss that, it just enters ifs and buts territory.

And you think swapping legends doesn't cost you anything? You are locked out of one set of utilities for 10 seconds.

Full Counter is about as braindead as it gets.

At worst, you take no damage for 2 seconds. A 2 second invulnerability on such a low cd is powerful enough to begin with, but then it gains all these effects as well. Warrior adrenaline isn't even difficult to build up, it's trivial.

In a 1v1 is where spellbreaker is at its most broken since you have a class with healing signet that has 2x endure pain, zerker stance, shield stance, and full counter every 7 seconds to give the warrior ridiculous amounts of invulnerability periods with which to heal with while remaining offensive.

You can have 2x endure pain, shield stance, and zerker stance. But you can't have all those and full counter on top and even call it remotely balanced.

You are basically a druid in terms of survival who has way more damage output and CC.

[kKagari.6804]

Then the issue lies with the rest of the kit, as I've said in another topic, not solely on full counter itself. The original argument against the OP is that the two traits aren't worth comparing given they are essentially different.