The Real Problem with DE

[tongpo.3184]

The real issue with DE IMO, isn't the limitations with kneeling, but rather how bad standing is. They wanted to make kneeling a "thoughtful decision"... but the issue is that standing with a rifle is so bad that you pretty much always want to be in sniper mode despite the issues you know what comes with kneeling. Standing right now is just a waste of initiative because the damage is so bad that there isn't really a decision to be made. The current thought process with Rifle is... looking for a good spot to kneel... until than, don't have the rifle out.... and that to me is just wrong.

For the most part, sniper mode abilities should be standard for DE. This way, you won't feel like you are wasting initiative by using abilities in standing. Kneeling should offer other utilities like, range increase from 1500-1700 (because a sniper gun should really out distance a long bow... just saying), auto attacks pierce, and using abilities will refund 1 initiative if they hit.

This way while there is a clear buff to kneeling, I won't feel like I have to be kneeling. Kneeling will actually be a thoughtful decisions, not a mandatory one. Overall, I also feel that damage needs a buff across the board also, but really, I see no reason why Standing mode vs sniper mode should be different abilities.... kneeling should just offer different utilities.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@tongpo.3184 said:The real issue with DE IMO, isn't the limitations with kneeling, but rather how bad standing is. They wanted to make kneeling a "thoughtful decision"... but the issue is that standing with a rifle is so bad that you pretty much always want to be in sniper mode despite the issues you know what comes with kneeling. Standing right now is just a waste of initiative because the damage is so bad that there isn't really a decision to be made. The current thought process with Rifle is... looking for a good spot to kneel... until than, don't have the rifle out.... and that to me is just wrong.

For the most part, sniper mode abilities should be standard for DE. This way, you won't feel like you are wasting initiative by using abilities in standing. Kneeling should offer other utilities like, range increase from 1500-1700 (because a sniper gun should really out distance a long bow... just saying), auto attacks pierce, and using abilities will refund 1 initiative if they hit.

This way while there is a clear buff to kneeling, I won't feel like I have to be kneeling. Kneeling will actually be a thoughtful decisions, not a mandatory one. Overall, I also feel that damage needs a buff across the board also, but really, I see no reason why Standing mode vs sniper mode should be different abilities.... kneeling should just offer different utilities.

What’s also holding it back is Rifle Kneeling Skills Range is bugged and shorter than it’s supposed to be.

[Zacchary.6183]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@tongpo.3184 said:The real issue with DE IMO, isn't the limitations with kneeling, but rather how bad standing is. They wanted to make kneeling a "thoughtful decision"... but the issue is that standing with a rifle is so bad that you pretty much always want to be in sniper mode despite the issues you know what comes with kneeling. Standing right now is just a waste of initiative because the damage is so bad that there isn't really a decision to be made. The current thought process with Rifle is... looking for a good spot to kneel... until than, don't have the rifle out.... and that to me is just wrong.

For the most part, sniper mode abilities should be standard for DE. This way, you won't feel like you are wasting initiative by using abilities in standing. Kneeling should offer other utilities like, range increase from 1500-1700 (because a sniper gun should really out distance a long bow... just saying), auto attacks pierce, and using abilities will refund 1 initiative if they hit.

This way while there is a clear buff to kneeling, I won't feel like I have to be kneeling. Kneeling will actually be a thoughtful decisions, not a mandatory one. Overall, I also feel that damage needs a buff across the board also, but really, I see no reason why Standing mode vs sniper mode should be different abilities.... kneeling should just offer different utilities.

What’s also holding it back is Rifle Kneeling Skills Range is bugged and shorter than it’s supposed to be.

How so? I have not been having any problem with the extended range.

[Saraneth.6021]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@tongpo.3184 said:The real issue with DE IMO, isn't the limitations with kneeling, but rather how bad standing is. They wanted to make kneeling a "thoughtful decision"... but the issue is that standing with a rifle is so bad that you pretty much always want to be in sniper mode despite the issues you know what comes with kneeling. Standing right now is just a waste of initiative because the damage is so bad that there isn't really a decision to be made. The current thought process with Rifle is... looking for a good spot to kneel... until than, don't have the rifle out.... and that to me is just wrong.

For the most part, sniper mode abilities should be standard for DE. This way, you won't feel like you are wasting initiative by using abilities in standing. Kneeling should offer other utilities like, range increase from 1500-1700 (because a sniper gun should really out distance a long bow... just saying), auto attacks pierce, and using abilities will refund 1 initiative if they hit.

This way while there is a clear buff to kneeling, I won't feel like I have to be kneeling. Kneeling will actually be a thoughtful decisions, not a mandatory one. Overall, I also feel that damage needs a buff across the board also, but really, I see no reason why Standing mode vs sniper mode should be different abilities.... kneeling should just offer different utilities.

What’s also holding it back is Rifle Kneeling Skills Range is bugged and shorter than it’s supposed to be.

How so? I have not been having problem with range.

Has been happening to me a lot in WvW. When kneeling, the enemies are in range-in the circle-and I still often keep getting out of range error. Even when they are quite a distance in the circle it still happens quite a bit. Can go on for some time too which really sucks. I'm just there like "WTF" as all my skills fail due to this.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Saraneth.6021 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@tongpo.3184 said:The real issue with DE IMO, isn't the limitations with kneeling, but rather how bad standing is. They wanted to make kneeling a "thoughtful decision"... but the issue is that standing with a rifle is so bad that you pretty much always want to be in sniper mode despite the issues you know what comes with kneeling. Standing right now is just a waste of initiative because the damage is so bad that there isn't really a decision to be made. The current thought process with Rifle is... looking for a good spot to kneel... until than, don't have the rifle out.... and that to me is just wrong.

For the most part, sniper mode abilities should be standard for DE. This way, you won't feel like you are wasting initiative by using abilities in standing. Kneeling should offer other utilities like, range increase from 1500-1700 (because a sniper gun should really out distance a long bow... just saying), auto attacks pierce, and using abilities will refund 1 initiative if they hit.

This way while there is a clear buff to kneeling, I won't feel like I have to be kneeling. Kneeling will actually be a thoughtful decisions, not a mandatory one. Overall, I also feel that damage needs a buff across the board also, but really, I see no reason why Standing mode vs sniper mode should be different abilities.... kneeling should just offer different utilities.

What’s also holding it back is Rifle Kneeling Skills Range is bugged and shorter than it’s supposed to be.

How so? I have not been having problem with range.

Happened to me a lot in WvW. When kneeling, the enemies are in range-in the circle- sometimes buy a lot and I still often keep getting out of range error. Really sucks.

Now that you mention it I have been having some issues with Mark (sometimes) with range. But overall not so much. Still worth reporting tho.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@tongpo.3184 said:The real issue with DE IMO, isn't the limitations with kneeling, but rather how bad standing is. They wanted to make kneeling a "thoughtful decision"... but the issue is that standing with a rifle is so bad that you pretty much always want to be in sniper mode despite the issues you know what comes with kneeling. Standing right now is just a waste of initiative because the damage is so bad that there isn't really a decision to be made. The current thought process with Rifle is... looking for a good spot to kneel... until than, don't have the rifle out.... and that to me is just wrong.

For the most part, sniper mode abilities should be standard for DE. This way, you won't feel like you are wasting initiative by using abilities in standing. Kneeling should offer other utilities like, range increase from 1500-1700 (because a sniper gun should really out distance a long bow... just saying), auto attacks pierce, and using abilities will refund 1 initiative if they hit.

This way while there is a clear buff to kneeling, I won't feel like I have to be kneeling. Kneeling will actually be a thoughtful decisions, not a mandatory one. Overall, I also feel that damage needs a buff across the board also, but really, I see no reason why Standing mode vs sniper mode should be different abilities.... kneeling should just offer different utilities.

What’s also holding it back is Rifle Kneeling Skills Range is bugged and shorter than it’s supposed to be.

How so? I have not been having any problem with the extended range.

1500 is the Tooltip Range, a Dev has stated that all Ranged and Melee Skills have a 15% Range Buffer to assist with tracking, I was in Guild Hall Arena testing ranges vs my buddies Ranger, all of Deadeye shots stop at the 1500 Range Marker Deadeye has when Kneeling, the Ranger was hitting from well past that, this scenario was both just standing their Shooting at each other.

Here is a screenshot to highlight this, notice my Health is gone while Ranger is at 100%

https://imgur.com/a/HLjGY

[Tringsh.2380]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:1500 is the Tooltip Range, a Dev has stated that all Ranged and Melee Skills have a 15% Range Buffer to assist with tracking, I was in Guild Hall Arena testing ranges vs my buddies Ranger, all of Deadeye shots stop at the 1500 Range Marker Deadeye has when Kneeling, the Ranger was hitting from well past that, this scenario was both just standing their Shooting at each other.

Here is a screenshot to highlight this, notice my Health is gone while Ranger is at 100%

https://imgur.com/a/HLjGY

That's incredibly disappointing and only serves to illustrate why people were asking for more than 1500 range when prone. Thanks for testing this you may want to create a dedicated post for it as part of the dev feedback.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Tringsh.2380 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:1500 is the Tooltip Range, a Dev has stated that all Ranged and Melee Skills have a 15% Range Buffer to assist with tracking, I was in Guild Hall Arena testing ranges vs my buddies Ranger, all of Deadeye shots stop at the 1500 Range Marker Deadeye has when Kneeling, the Ranger was hitting from well past that, this scenario was both just standing their Shooting at each other.

Here is a screenshot to highlight this, notice my Health is gone while Ranger is at 100%

https://imgur.com/a/HLjGY

That's incredibly disappointing and only serves to illustrate why people were asking for more than 1500 range when prone. Thanks for testing this you may want to create a dedicated post for it as part of the dev feedback.

I already have a dedicated post in the bugs subforum, I try not to make duplicate topics/posts.

[Falcord.3608]

Yeah, something got lost in translation when balancing the rifle.

I think the intention was for standing rifle to be more or less on par with P/P damage, and kneeling rifle to be a significant upgrade over that.

The reality is that kneeling rifle is on par with P/P with significant more effort, well behind when faced by opposition (as simple as enemies walking up to you) and standing rifle is openly useless, except as a kiting tool.

I love the rifle, I think the abilities are well designed, with the possible exception of Double Tap / TRB which are a bit bland, but everything on it desperately needs a boost.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@Falcord.3608 said:Yeah, something got lost in translation when balancing the rifle.

I think the intention was for standing rifle to be more or less on par with P/P damage, and kneeling rifle to be a significant upgrade over that.

The reality is that kneeling rifle is on par with P/P with significant more effort, well behind when faced by opposition (as simple as enemies walking up to you) and standing rifle is openly useless, except as a kiting tool.

I love the rifle, I think the abilities are well designed, with the possible exception of Double Tap / TRB which are a bit bland, but everything on it desperately needs a boost.

I don't think they intended for standing rifle to be as strong as P/P, because that would make P/P completely inferior, creating content that invalidates previous content is simply not how you do updates. Kneeling Rifle is a different story entirely...

Their design approach to the rifle is to be to use standing for mobility and escape, while kneeling is supposed to be your primary source of damage... Whether or not this has been done well is... Well just take a look at the rest of the forums.

[Androx.8572]

Humble opinion:I think you are all missing one important fact about deadeye: It is supposed to be a person who one shot kills anyone in its way when possible , it is not supposed to be an omnipotent powerhead in the field. Daredevil kind of made it feel like we had control over most situations. Therefore, it is good the way it is until now , I understand how cool it would be for it to own better mobility and all , but then it wouldnt be a deadeye anymore isnt it?

[Falcord.3608]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

I don't think they intended for standing rifle to be as strong as P/P, because that would make P/P completely inferior, creating content that invalidates previous content is simply not how you do updates. Kneeling Rifle is a different story entirely...

I think you are both right and wrong. Thief is a unique class in that weapon abilities have no cooldowns, so you need to keep everything on equal footing. When I say standing rifle should be on par with P/P, I am compensating for the added benefit of 1200 range vs 900. So yes, standing rifle should be slightly weaker than P/P, but not to the degree it is now. It should be a viable alternative where you sacrifice damage slightly for the benefit of easier kiting.

Why? Because a thief that is running P/P and Rifle simply has no reason at all to engage with the rifle at short range if they can just bring out the pistols. That's why Thief is so tricky to balance: Any other profession can choose to field an inferior weapon set alongside the superior one, because they can always burn through every cooldown in succession. Thieves don't have that luxury so weapon sets with similar roles need to be very well balanced, and in this case P/P should be measured against standing rifle, not kneeling.

[Vertep.2498]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@Falcord.3608 said:Yeah, something got lost in translation when balancing the rifle.

I think the intention was for standing rifle to be more or less on par with P/P damage, and kneeling rifle to be a significant upgrade over that.

The reality is that

kneeling rifle

is on par with P/P with significant more effort, well behind when faced by opposition (as simple as enemies walking up to you) and standing rifle is openly useless, except as a kiting tool.

I love the rifle, I think the abilities are well designed, with the possible exception of Double Tap / TRB which are a bit bland, but everything on it desperately needs a boost.

I don't think they intended for standing rifle to be as strong as P/P, because that would make P/P completely inferior, creating content that invalidates previous content is simply not how you do updates. Kneeling Rifle is a different story entirely...

Their design approach to the rifle is to be to use standing for mobility and escape, while kneeling is supposed to be your primary source of damage... Whether or not this has been done well is... Well just take a look at the rest of the forums.

I think problem is as rifle should be better than p/p unload spam but just while kneel and shouldnt be better without kneel as you say but here we are...rifle is inferior than p/p even if kneeling for dps, here is problem I think

[tongpo.3184]

@Androx.8572 said:Humble opinion:I think you are all missing one important fact about deadeye: It is supposed to be a person who one shot kills anyone in its way when possible , it is not supposed to be an omnipotent powerhead in the field. Daredevil kind of made it feel like we had control over most situations. Therefore, it is good the way it is until now , I understand how cool it would be for it to own better mobility and all , but then it wouldnt be a deadeye anymore isnt it?

But its not one shot one kill no matter how you slice it. You need to build up malice stacks before DJ can do any damage. And currently, the best way to do that is to start with p/p, use mark, pop unload since that builds up malice way faster and more consistently than triple tap, then weapon swap, then kneel, then Dj... thats anything, but one shot, one kill. You could just start in rifle mode, but autos and triple tap don't build malice fast enough, but then if you used triple tap twice, by the time your initiative came back to use DJ, the malice stacks already wore off... so its not fine at all, lol.

Overall, I am not asking for better mobility, I am asking that standing mode have the same abilities as kneeling, and then kneeling offers additional utilities to your abilities. I think that makes a lot more sense and falls in line with their whole, "thoughtful decision" thing. Beucase its not thoughtful at all right now, its mandatory because standing is trash.

Currently, the feel is, I'm gimped if I do and I'm gimped if I don't. Due to all the issues with kneeling, it feels terrible to be forced to kneel because it feels even worse to be standing. Thats the issue.

[saerni.2584]

Deadeye should use rifle as a secondary weapon imo.

Engage with a faster weapon to build up Malice. Then when you gain Perfectionist swap to rifle and DJ

Camping rifle can work if you mark a downed and then use rifle to shoot enemy players who try to help that person. You can get better sustain and people will either stop res'ing or eat a maxed out DJ.

[tongpo.3184]

@saerni.2584 said:Deadeye should use rifle as a secondary weapon imo.

Engage with a faster weapon to build up Malice. Then when you gain Perfectionist swap to rifle and DJ

Camping rifle can work if you mark a downed and then use rifle to shoot enemy players who try to help that person. You can get better sustain and people will either stop res'ing or eat a maxed out DJ.

The issue I have with that is that it defeats the purpose of the espec. P/P is rather short range at 900, whereas DE is supposed to be a long range, kill from afar spec. And the correct way right now is to build malice with p/p, then swap, kneel - DJ. But you do the DJ at a pretty short range then, usually within 900. Not much of a sniper IMO and doesn't really fit the theme of the what the spec was suppose to be for the class.