Pistol/pistol rework for thief?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How would Sneak Attack become an auto attack? It already functions like a slower version of damage and bleed.

Sneak attack is basically a toned down version of unload with conditions built into it. It’s not hard to imagine it becoming an auto attack. It would function exactly as it does now.

I don't see how's that a reasonable change.

Okay. How many hours have you played PP thief? Have you tried playing PP thief in SpvP? How competitive were you?

Once you answer those questions, then please provide your explanation as to why it would be an unreasonable change.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How would Sneak Attack become an auto attack? It already functions like a slower version of damage and bleed.

Sneak attack is basically a toned down version of unload with conditions built into it. It’s not hard to imagine it becoming an auto attack. It would function exactly as it does now.

I'm not a big supporter of P/P applying condition damage. P/P should be crit based and can apply CCs and Vuln. Adding condition damage to the weapon set throws the balance out of whack due to the variance in scaling. P/P should be mainly pure physical damage and if you want to add condition damage to it, then you should play around with the runes and venoms.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How would Sneak Attack become an auto attack? It already functions like a slower version of damage and bleed.

Sneak attack is basically a toned down version of unload with conditions built into it. It’s not hard to imagine it becoming an auto attack. It would function exactly as it does now.

I'm not a big supporter of P/P applying condition damage. P/P should be crit based and can apply CCs and Vuln. Adding condition damage to the weapon set throws the balance out of whack due to the variance in scaling. P/P should be mainly pure physical damage and if you want to add condition damage to it, then you should play around with the runes and venoms.

Alright tell that to Saerni, not me. Before responding further please try and read through the comment thread first to avoid confusion on who’s taking what position on PP and why.

[Sobx.1758]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How would Sneak Attack become an auto attack? It already functions like a slower version of damage and bleed.

Sneak attack is basically a toned down version of unload with conditions built into it. It’s not hard to imagine it becoming an auto attack. It would function exactly as it does now.

I don't see how's that a reasonable change.

Okay. How many hours have you played PP thief? Have you tried playing PP thief in SpvP? How competitive were you?

Once you answer those questions, then please provide your explanation as to why it would be an unreasonable change.

Enough to know how braindead it was to play and to understand that what you're proposing would just get it nerfed further so it doesn't have right to exist. p/p was always a fun cheese build, it got nerfed strictly because of unload and now you're trying to throw it as new '1' (nerfed, yes, but it doesn't really matter a lot when it becomes free).How exactly is that a reasonable thing to propose?

[Guy.9207]

I'll admit, maybe I gave the wrong impression, but the new "autoattack/unload" I talked about would be something like this:

• No channel time, works more or less the same as the old autoattack, just fires faster similarly to repeater speed.
• The autoattack gives you a might on each hit.
• Optionally you could make it a chain attack with second hit giving you bleeding. When its dual equipped anet could also animate it to be firing both guns I suppose.
• Stealth could have a lot shorter channel time, while still applying the same amount of condis. Think of it like scattergun when it fires.

Now back to the discussion of what p/p should be: I personally agreed with it being more of cc heavy weapon, mainly because the resources are already there. All the skills could work as a cc, leaving the autoattack to be the damage dealer. All the skills would work as a supplement rather than working as a de facto autoattack.

For the other skills, body shot should work like a bullet shot, headshots and smokeshots could use some buff, maybe headshot gives back ini if interrupted, and smokeshot giving larger radius for combos, particularly when used with dagger. If anyone has a better idea for skill 3 that would work as a cc please do say it, but I personally think it should be most powerful of all.

If I were to consider the idea of p/d, it would actually be a buff, since now it grants you even more boons, while (optionally) also bleeds your enemies, allowing some viable condi using such combination.

Tl;dr: I said it wrong, my mistake, I meant to say that I think a buffed autoattack (including stealthed) and a skill to replace unload (which is not only redundant, but also overshadowing other skills) would make p/p better as a cc weapon, and also buffs other builds that uses pistol.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@"NeverLoseGuy.3894" said:I'll admit, maybe I gave the wrong impression, but the new "autoattack/unload" I talked about would be something like this:

• No channel time, works more or less the same as the old autoattack, just fires faster similarly to repeater speed.
• The autoattack gives you a might on each hit.
• Optionally you could make it a chain attack with second hit giving you bleeding. When its dual equipped anet could also animate it to be firing both guns I suppose.
• Stealth could have a lot shorter channel time, while still applying the same amount of condis. Think of it like scattergun when it fires.

Now back to the discussion of what p/p should be: I personally agreed with it being more of cc heavy weapon, mainly because the resources are already there. All the skills could work as a cc, leaving the autoattack to be the damage dealer. All the skills would work as a supplement rather than working as a de facto autoattack.

For the other skills, body shot should work like a bullet shot, headshots and smokeshots could use some buff, maybe headshot gives back ini if interrupted, and smokeshot giving larger radius for combos, particularly when used with dagger. If anyone has a better idea for skill 3 that would work as a cc please do say it, but I personally think it should be most powerful of all.

If I were to consider the idea of p/d, it would actually be a buff, since now it grants you even more boons, while (optionally) also bleeds your enemies, allowing some viable condi using such combination.

Tl;dr: I said it wrong, my mistake, I meant to say that I think a buffed autoattack (including stealthed) and a skill to replace unload (which is not only redundant, but also overshadowing other skills) would make p/p better as a cc weapon, and also buffs other builds that uses pistol.

So now you're suggesting making auto-attack as p/p's main way to dps? That'd literally make p/p into new sw/p, equally dull, except with more range instead of having to melee and totally defeats the purpose you suggested in OP. And sw/p already has the CC covered well on Infiltrator's Strike, Pistol Whip and Headshot.And yush, on paper Unload spam looks too OP. But at least in PVE you still need to master the easy'ish rotation and you also need to constantly think 15 secs ahead to have stolen skill available for stealth to reset malice between Marks to trigger M7 as often as possible. And considering how simple it sounds in theory and how it has superior dps uptime and boons and good dps, why people don't play it more? 'Cause very few could actually pull it off in real situation. (And staff does have superior dps if the boss is a damage golem.)

[Straegen.2938]

Nerf Unload... seriously? Unload is far... far... really really far from being OP anywhere in the game. It is basically a crap version of Rapid Fire. It is a medium range SINGLE target skill on a single target weapon. Most ranged AoE in the game can hit at least five people. Does anyone run into P/P and go... wow that thing is stupid OP and I have virtually no way to beat it? Fun, sure. In need to some cosmic balancing in the game, hell no.

As for the other skills in the set. Other than the AA and stealth attack, I find everything about it useful. I have builds centered around the interrupt. The immob spam is brilliant in a team setting as the number of enemies running toward a door have discovered. Bound makes BP fantastic. Fix the auto-attack and from stealth attack and the weapon might crawl into the barely usable section of WvW meta.

@CJH.2879 said:I truly miss the ricochet trait for the pistols, wish that one was brought back into the mix (or re-incorporated in one way or another on the actual pistol attacks). =)

Every time I think about this change it pisses me off. Lets take one of the most fun traits in the game that doesn't have a hint of OP-ness and remove it. Best thing about the skill was that it allowed thieves to compete more efficiently with clone spam, other pet builds and do better in outnumbered situations. The inability of the weapon set to pressure more than one opponent at a time basically limits its usefulness in virtually all aspects of the game.

[DemonSeed.3528]

The things that may have made ricochet a problem in the past are long gone. It should come back.