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What's holding you back of changing how downed state works ?


Caedmon.6798

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@Doug.4930 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Can’t believe some are having this much of a tough time with the current downed mechanics...

What can we say, some of us like taking fights where the numbers are not in our favour. Something downstate apologists wouldn't really understand.

Downed state benefits any size group, and of course it’s tougher when solo against more than 1... As it should be because this is an unpredictable “open world” RvR mode not a 1v1 designed mode...

And I roam most of the time in wvw, and don’t see what the hubbub is all about... Sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you get the stomp or kill, sometimes you don’t. And that’s how it goes, so we can deal with it or not.

There were plenty of times I didn’t get the kill, but I didn’t run to the forums complaining and asking to change game mechanics because I couldn’t handle it.

Edit- And seriously, what do some want next? The devs to change the mechanics in SPvP so you can have the possibility to win a match 1v5?

Well firstly I wouldn't say I'm complaining I'd say I 'm criticizing. I'm trying to contribute ideas as to why I think downstate is unbalanced and how it could be improved. Complaining is if I just said downstate is bad boo hoo without explaining myself.

Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group, it specifically benefits the larger group at all times. It is much much harder for a smaller group to cleave down a target when the larger group is reviving and cleaving. Fighting outnumbered is already an uphill battle as you stated. Downstate makes what is already a very steep hill into a mountain.

All I'm saying is that the larger group already has the advantage of more people. I Think in its current state if the outnumbered force manages to down one of the enemy players on the opposing and numerically superior team, then I think i think the advantage when it comes to finishing that player should be given to the outnumbered force. But in its current state the pendulum swings very much in favour of those who are reviving over those who are finishing.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:
Downed penalty timer an actual penalty
Its currently sits at a measly 60 seconds. This means that if you go down, get ressed, then survive for a minute (kind of easy in a slugfest among tanks), you loose that penalty. Increase this to at least 180s.

Third times the charm
Remove one downed penalty stage. Instead of 75%/50%/25%/dead make it go 66%/33%/dead.

Nothing in this really requires any "balance" considerations, any changes to skills or any major coding done (the last suggestion being the "worst"). I consider all this perfectly acceptable both for PvE and sPvP as well. PvErs cant really argue anything, they say PvE is too easy anyway. Dont think sPvPers often encounter the WvW issues with power ressing and repeated downing.

And that is really all I will say on this subject, because downed state threads always end up a mess with uncompromising cries to delete it.

I would be more than happy for these changes to be implemented. Sure I hate downstate, but I'd be more than happy for any compromise such as the changes you suggested.

And this my friend is you not understanding... “Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group”...

@Swagger.1459 said:Downed state benefits any size group,

My apologies then for misunderstanding you, I assumed that this statement was implying that downstate benefits any size group both large and small equally. Which as we can now both agree couldn't be more wrong.

Everyone benefits from downed mechanics.

Are you new to wvw or something? Never seen, or been part of, a smaller group that rez downed members?

Of course I have, however reviving downed players when you are outnumbered is significaly more difficult than it is reviving when you have numbers on your side. An analogy would be like saying that a penalty kick in football (soccer in the USA) is balanced equally between the kicker and the goalkeeper simply because we've seen the goal keepers save it sometimes. So yes I have revived my team mates in outnumbered fights before, but I was still extremely disadvantaged by downstate due to being outnumbered. Sometimes the goal keeper can save it, but to then use that as your logic to build an argument stating that penalty kicks favour both the attack and defense equally is ridiculous. Much the same way that stating you've revived allies before when you've been outnumbered means downstate benefits both groups equally is ridiculous.

Are you new to fighting outnumbered or something?

So what that it’s harder? And it’s harder for 1 person to push a truck as opposed to 10... Doesn’t change the fact that downed mechanics benefit all players and gives an opportunity for a come back.

WvW is primarily a RvR mode designed to allow for mass battles to take place. It’s not supposed to be fair and balanced, and the downed mechanics aren’t changing for players who are upset they didn’t get the kill because someone rezzed their target.

I’m a roamer. My guild are all roamers. We, and everyone else who plays in smaller groups, fight outnumbered at times. That’s the way it goes. Get use to it.

Edit- And you keep injecting the word “equally” and using that as a talking point... I never said downed benefits everyone “equally”, I said “Downed state benefits any size group, and of course it’s tougher when solo against more than 1...”... This “tougher” obviously includes outnumbered groups too. Doesn’t change the fact that downed mechanics benefit someone who was downed, and that’s the whole purpose.

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@Doug.4930 said:Again, it doesn't need to be one extreme or the other. Remove or keep downstate. I'm sure Anet can simply make alterations to downstate to make it more balanced.On reflection, I actually agree. They need to normalise the revive skills because some of them have a cast time of at least 2 seconds whereas others have a shorter, near-instant cast time and a lower CD to boot e.g. Illusion of Life. And with scrappers and MI firebrands, revives are generally instant if you're playing against a moderately competent guild group. But whatever.

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@Clownmug.8357 said:I think not caring is what's holding me back, also the fact that I don't work for Arenanet.

I don’t thin anyone would love that, working on a team that promotes bad combat trough lame gimmicks and rotations....

I would go nuts if some colegue would present something has lame has most elite spec gimmicks behave...

For some reason wvw and pvp are in the state they are.

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:One thing I noticed too, the last downed state event, there was a dramatic increase in players throughout the week.

Would be interested if they shared those numbers. But to be fair we would also need to run a week with bonuses to WXP, reward track and magic find to get a good comparison if it was no downstate or loot that drew people in. If it was just the added loot, we should run more bonus weeks throughout the year or consider it for a potential change in the future.

Full disclosure, run roamer/havoc and liked the week, not saying remove DS but it could use adjustment. Again a good balance might be in remove the ability for the full dead to be rezzed. You can't complain about a smaller force not willing to get run over by a larger one if the smaller one has nothing to gain from their deaths. Give them a way to thin out a larger force by making dead members have to run back and you will see more zergs getting attacked by smaller groups like you do during no downstate weeks. It is a havoc mini-game to get a larger force to chase you since you know you are wasting their time and allowing your side to hit them elsewhere, but even than the havoc would prefer to be thinning them out themselves, but knowing the zerg can just power rez their dead, there is not as much a point to it.

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@Usagi.4835 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Again, it doesn't need to be one extreme or the other. Remove or keep downstate. I'm sure Anet can simply make alterations to downstate to make it more balanced.On reflection, I actually agree. They need to normalise the revive skills because some of them have a cast time of at least 2 seconds whereas others have a shorter, near-instant cast time and a lower CD to boot e.g.
Illusion of Life
. And with scrappers and
MI
firebrands, revives are generally instant if you're playing against a moderately competent guild group. But whatever.

Agree doesn't have to be extremes. Also there is nothing wrong with people creating builds that focus on getting people back up. if anything that adds a level to game play. But there is no penalty for someone being dead when people can just think, we will get them back up once we win. That just means larger side wins, that's a problem. Make it more challenging gameplay and force players to decide, revive them before they are dead or they are gone.

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@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Again, it doesn't need to be one extreme or the other. Remove or keep downstate. I'm sure Anet can simply make alterations to downstate to make it more balanced.On reflection, I actually agree. They need to normalise the revive skills because some of them have a cast time of at least 2 seconds whereas others have a shorter, near-instant cast time and a lower CD to boot e.g.
Illusion of Life
. And with scrappers and
MI
firebrands, revives are generally instant if you're playing against a moderately competent guild group. But whatever.

Agree doesn't have to be extremes. Also there is nothing wrong with people creating builds that focus on getting people back up. if anything that adds a level to game play. But there is no penalty for someone being dead when people can just think, we will get them back up once we win. That just means larger side wins, that's a problem. Make it more challenging gameplay and force players to decide, revive them before they are dead or they are gone.

Exactly just some small changes to downstate and reviving, nothing huge and extreme, thats what most of us who complain about downstate would be happy to settle for. Larger groups already have the advantage of more people, downstate really shouldn't give them the double advantage.

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