Nerf the mesmers for the love of pvp

[praqtos.9035]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Vague Memory.2817" said:Even the devs must realise now that the complaints about Mes are getting ridiculous. This is the most nerfed class already. Read the skill change notes on the class wiki including core traits. It reads like a massacre. They are not going to redesign what makes a Mes a Mes. There are no Mes topping the leaderboards to my knowledge. That says it all. This obsession with trying to turn Mes into a PvE only class is ludicrous and the devs need to stop pandering to this kind of kitten.

Account name ckod was rank 12 the other day on Chaotic Interruption on NA. It's doing better than mesmer usually does.Chaotic interruption need a nuke from the orbit. Immobilize proc. Thats truly dumb and shouldnt be like that, a lot of bad mesmers suddenly became "so good" at the class with this CI focused builds - bunker chrono,cmirage.After this trait would be destroyed mesmer can hope start get buffs(nerf reverts?) and fix power block bug >:(Only I see a problem in condition duration amulets ? Everything boiled down to maximum condition duration - Scourge and Mirage are now both in the same boat - maximum condition duration. I always have thought condition duration amulets shouldnt had been introduced.

[Xstein.2187]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:These threads wouldn't grow so big if the mesmer mains would ignore them.

It's like picking at a wound when you should ignore it and let it go away on its own.

Wound???? Except lets be real here, it's more like HIV as every time a new cure is tried patch after patch, these threads KEEP COMING BACK!!!

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

[Allarius.5670]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Vague Memory.2817" said:Even the devs must realise now that the complaints about Mes are getting ridiculous. This is the most nerfed class already. Read the skill change notes on the class wiki including core traits. It reads like a massacre. They are not going to redesign what makes a Mes a Mes. There are no Mes topping the leaderboards to my knowledge. That says it all. This obsession with trying to turn Mes into a PvE only class is ludicrous and the devs need to stop pandering to this kind of kitten.

Account name ckod was rank 12 the other day on Chaotic Interruption on NA. It's doing better than mesmer usually does.Chaotic interruption need a nuke from the orbit. Immobilize proc. Thats truly dumb and shouldnt be like that, a lot of bad mesmers suddenly became "so good" at the class with this CI focused builds - bunker chrono,cmirage.After this trait would be destroyed mesmer can hope start get buffs(nerf reverts?) and fix power block bug >:(Only I see a problem in condition duration amulets ? Everything boiled down to maximum condition duration - Scourge and Mirage are now both in the same boat - maximum condition duration. I always have thought condition duration amulets shouldnt had been introduced.

Maybe a fat stack of torment in place of immobilize?

[Dreddo.9865]

@"praqtos.9035" said:Chaotic interruption need a nuke from the orbit. Immobilize proc. Thats truly dumb and shouldnt be like that, a lot of bad mesmers suddenly became "so good" at the class with this CI focused builds - bunker chrono,cmirage.I am happy to see that my comments are being adopted by the 'pros'. We are making some progress.

For who asked how the stunlock happens read MrAmputatoes.6031 post.

@Zenix.6198 The problem is that for the risk taken the output of dps is absurd. And we have been discussing this for ages (almost two years now).

[mortrialus.3062]

@Allarius.5670 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Vague Memory.2817" said:Even the devs must realise now that the complaints about Mes are getting ridiculous. This is the most nerfed class already. Read the skill change notes on the class wiki including core traits. It reads like a massacre. They are not going to redesign what makes a Mes a Mes. There are no Mes topping the leaderboards to my knowledge. That says it all. This obsession with trying to turn Mes into a PvE only class is ludicrous and the devs need to stop pandering to this kind of kitten.

Account name ckod was rank 12 the other day on Chaotic Interruption on NA. It's doing better than mesmer usually does.Chaotic interruption need a nuke from the orbit. Immobilize proc. Thats truly dumb and shouldnt be like that, a lot of bad mesmers suddenly became "so good" at the class with this CI focused builds - bunker chrono,cmirage.After this trait would be destroyed mesmer can hope start get buffs(nerf reverts?) and fix power block bug >:(Only I see a problem in condition duration amulets ? Everything boiled down to maximum condition duration - Scourge and Mirage are now both in the same boat - maximum condition duration. I always have thought condition duration amulets shouldnt had been introduced.

Maybe a fat stack of torment in place of immobilize?

Lolno. The game needs less instant cast damage.

Instant cast disables like immob or blind are fine. The core problem is how out of control and spammable Mantra of Distraction is right now. Dropping the baseline immob from 2s to 1s and whatever nerf is likely in the pipeline for mantras will likely bring it in line I think

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@necromaniac.7629 said:If you yourself can't manage to counter their bursts why even waste my time explaining anything to you

Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor asserting that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss itYou made a claim, you can't prove that claim to be true, so it will dismissed as a false claim.

[flog.3485]

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

Chaotic interruption should only proc off stuns. Right now there is just way too many opportunities to interrupt for mesmer as a whole, especially with mantra of distraction.

This trait has barely seen any modification throughout the elite specs era. It really needs to be updated.

[Daishi.6027]

I agree that Chaotic interruption over performs, but it's currently sitting on par with many other over performing specs, like war and engie in particular, and even being countered by the likes of holo. I'm fine with it being nerfed and brought into line, but once again this is an issue with condi and not power, which has access to the exact same tools and doesn't over perform.

No matter how much some people will argue about what power is capable of to people who let the entire combo land; power is made redundant and easily pushed off point by a well placed dodge or two on anything with a mediocre amount of sturdyness/sustain. Condi on the other hand is not.

Was the same prior to the nerfs and is the same now. The inherent imbalance from mesmer tends to stem from condi and it's sources.

[mortrialus.3062]

@flog.3485 said:

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

Chaotic interruption should only proc off stuns. Right now there is just way too many opportunities to interrupt for mesmer as a whole, especially with mantra of distraction.

This trait has barely seen any modification throughout the elite specs era. It really needs to be updated.

Immob on stun is hilariously redundant.

[viquing.8254]

@"praqtos.9035" said:Chaotic interruption need a nuke from the orbit. Immobilize proc. Thats truly dumb and shouldnt be like that, a lot of bad mesmers suddenly became "so good" at the class with this CI focused builds - bunker chrono,cmirage.

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

@flog.3485 said:

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

Chaotic interruption should only proc off stuns. Right now there is just way too many opportunities to interrupt for mesmer as a whole, especially with mantra of distraction.

This trait has barely seen any modification throughout the elite specs era. It really needs to be updated.

@Daishi.6027 said:I agree that Chaotic interruption over performs, but it's currently sitting on par with many other over performing specs, like war and engie in particular, and even being countered by the likes of holo. I'm fine with it being nerfed and brought into line, but once again this is an issue with condi and not power, which has access to the exact same tools and doesn't over perform.

Why did it suddenly be used after years of being a unused trait ?Maybe stop rollfacing and get some condiclear/stab back in your builds ?I'm all to have a real 2 to 3 sec flat hard CC like other meta build instead of an immob who can be clear and proc only on rupt or 1 sec daze (the target can evade the incomming burst.) while every other meta class have hard CC proc with no rupt prerequise in AOE for every top 5 meta builds.So yeah remove CI and give real easy to use 600 range 2 sec hard CC aoe to mesmer, thanks. (<= it was sarcasms huh.)

[Xstein.2187]

@viquing.8254 said:

Why did it suddenly be used after years of being a unused trait ?

Same could be said about a lot of mesmer skills people complain about here.

Take mantra of distraction for example:before it could stun 100% of the time with CS with no ICD, now it can'tbefore it could then stun 100% of the time with CS with a 5 sec ICD, now it can'tbefore it could then also stun with CS with a 15 sec ICD, now it can't-doesn't work with CS at all anymorebefore it could scale with critical hit damage on bower block, now it can't

Before HoT and PoF, mantra of distraction was a LOT more powerful.It is not like all these changes happened in quick succession either. Many versions were around for years.I'm not saying some stuff shouldn't have got nerfed or changed, but right now some people in this thread are complaining like these skills just popped up outa nowhere.

Hint: It's not because these skills got better-they got worse. It's because a lot of other mesmer skills have already been nerfed and now certain people, including WP, need to find something else to complain about because . . . . . . . . . .you know. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mesmers

[mortrialus.3062]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"praqtos.9035" said:Chaotic interruption need a nuke from the orbit. Immobilize proc. Thats truly dumb and shouldnt be like that, a lot of bad mesmers suddenly became "so good" at the class with this CI focused builds - bunker chrono,cmirage.

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

@flog.3485 said:

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

Chaotic interruption should only proc off stuns. Right now there is just way too many opportunities to interrupt for mesmer as a whole, especially with mantra of distraction.

This trait has barely seen any modification throughout the elite specs era. It really needs to be updated.

@Daishi.6027 said:I agree that Chaotic interruption over performs, but it's currently sitting on par with many other over performing specs, like war and engie in particular, and even being countered by the likes of holo. I'm fine with it being nerfed and brought into line, but once again this is an issue with condi and not power, which has access to the exact same tools and doesn't over perform.

Why did it suddenly be used after years of being a unused trait ?Maybe stop rollfacing and get some condiclear/stab back in your builds ?I'm all to have a real 2 to 3 sec flat hard CC like other meta build instead of an immob who can be clear and proc only on rupt or 1 sec daze (the target can evade the incomming burst.) while every other meta class have hard CC proc with no rupt prerequise in AOE for every top 5 meta builds.So yeah remove CI and give real easy to use 600 range 2 sec hard CC aoe to mesmer, thanks. (<= it was sarcasms huh.)

I think we were all just sleeping on how godly it was because we all associated mantras with power mesmers, not condi.

[Xstein.2187]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@"praqtos.9035" said:Chaotic interruption need a nuke from the orbit. Immobilize proc. Thats truly dumb and shouldnt be like that, a lot of bad mesmers suddenly became "so good" at the class with this CI focused builds - bunker chrono,cmirage.

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

@flog.3485 said:

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

Chaotic interruption should only proc off stuns. Right now there is just way too many opportunities to interrupt for mesmer as a whole, especially with mantra of distraction.

This trait has barely seen any modification throughout the elite specs era. It really needs to be updated.

@Daishi.6027 said:I agree that Chaotic interruption over performs, but it's currently sitting on par with many other over performing specs, like war and engie in particular, and even being countered by the likes of holo. I'm fine with it being nerfed and brought into line, but once again this is an issue with condi and not power, which has access to the exact same tools and doesn't over perform.

Why did it suddenly be used after years of being a unused trait ?Maybe stop rollfacing and get some condiclear/stab back in your builds ?I'm all to have a real 2 to 3 sec flat hard CC like other meta build instead of an immob who can be clear and proc only on rupt or 1 sec daze (the target can evade the incomming burst.) while every other meta class have hard CC proc with no rupt prerequise in AOE for every top 5 meta builds.So yeah remove CI and give real easy to use 600 range 2 sec hard CC aoe to mesmer, thanks. (<= it was sarcasms huh.)

I think we were all just sleeping on how godly it was because we all associated mantras with power mesmers, not condi.

Nope, nope, I'm gonna call it: The next one is going to be that all those players who may have tried to use it, like Helseth, were worthless trash players and the 'skill level' of mesmer players has somehow magically substantially increased since then ;)

[flog.3485]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Chaotic interruption is annoying as hell... especially when paired w/ pistol or Chaos storm. You're already getting interrupted/ stunned, why tack on the immobilization?

Chaotic interruption should only proc off stuns. Right now there is just way too many opportunities to interrupt for mesmer as a whole, especially with mantra of distraction.

This trait has barely seen any modification throughout the elite specs era. It really needs to be updated.

Immob on stun is hilariously redundant.

Then we change the immob to something else.

Edit: or you know, we just remove it.

[Evil.1580]

Just witnessed how a mesmer 1 shot 3 guys in under a sec, all together, out from stealth, in Plat 2 tier.

Yet, some people still defend it.

[Dreddo.9865]

@viquing.8254 said:Maybe stop rollfacing and get some condiclear/stab back in your builds ?

1. Who can faceroll a mesmer?
2. Who doesn't have condi clears in their build?
3. How much stability/stun breaks can a 'build' (class specific) have?

[Xstein.2187]

@"Dreddo.9865" said:

2. Who doesn't have condi clears in their build?

Power mesmers

[Vague Memory.2817]

There is only one one shot combo I know of, which exists on Chrono and ANet introduced these changes recently to allow it to happen. Which just proves they don't have a clue what they are doing. It's a burst from stealth involving one daze and all the chrono slow traits. It's a one trick pony but very effective when executed flawlessly. I know because I had an unranked match where I was consistently hit with it successfully and I play usually mes (for a long time). It is situational. Other than that anomoly chrono is trash, and I stopped playing it because pretty much every other class elite can eat it for breakfast. Trust me Mes is in a pretty poor state at the moment, to the point where core Mes should only be used in PvE, Chrono is just awful for damage, and Mirage which is still playable but literally relies on two skills. So those complaining about being one shotted blame ANet who buffed slow skills for no other reason than because they trashed everything else Chrono can do. ANet have been killing build diversity for so long on all classes there are only a few viable ones to choose from, including pure cheese.

[Evil.1580]

@Vague Memory.2817 said:There is only one one shot combo I know of, which exists on Chrono and ANet introduced these changes recently to allow it to happen. Which just proves they don't have a clue what they are doing. It's a burst from stealth involving one daze and all the chrono slow traits. It's a one trick pony but very effective when executed flawlessly. I know because I had an unranked match where I was consistently hit with it successfully and I play usually mes (for a long time). It is situational. Other than that anomoly chrono is trash, and I stopped playing it because pretty much every other class elite can eat it for breakfast. Trust me Mes is in a pretty poor state at the moment, to the point where core Mes should only be used in PvE, Chrono is just awful for damage, and Mirage which is still playable but literally relies on two skills. So those complaining about being one shotted blame ANet who buffed slow skills for no other reason than because they trashed everything else Chrono can do. ANet have been killing build diversity for so long on all classes there are only a few viable ones to choose from, including pure cheese.

Good that we agree this should be nerfed.

And if I may add - many more things should be tuned down. The combo clonses+torment+daze+stealth spam must stop now.

[Xstein.2187]

@Vague Memory.2817 said:There is only one one shot combo I know of, which exists on Chrono and ANet introduced these changes recently to allow it to happen. Which just proves they don't have a clue what they are doing. It's a burst from stealth involving one daze and all the chrono slow traits. It's a one trick pony but very effective when executed flawlessly. I know because I had an unranked match where I was consistently hit with it successfully and I play usually mes (for a long time). It is situational. Other than that anomoly chrono is trash, and I stopped playing it because pretty much every other class elite can eat it for breakfast. Trust me Mes is in a pretty poor state at the moment, to the point where core Mes should only be used in PvE, Chrono is just awful for damage, and Mirage which is still playable but literally relies on two skills. So those complaining about being one shotted blame ANet who buffed slow skills for no other reason than because they trashed everything else Chrono can do. ANet have been killing build diversity for so long on all classes there are only a few viable ones to choose from, including pure cheese.

Amen! the only problem is the 'Lost Time' change on Dec 11, 2018

Besides this, if people are still complaining, they likely just despise the mesmer's class theme.

[Xstein.2187]

@"bOTEB.1573" said:

@Vague Memory.2817 said:There is only one one shot combo I know of, which exists on Chrono and ANet introduced these changes recently to allow it to happen. Which just proves they don't have a clue what they are doing. It's a burst from stealth involving one daze and all the chrono slow traits. It's a one trick pony but very effective when executed flawlessly. I know because I had an unranked match where I was consistently hit with it successfully and I play usually mes (for a long time). It is situational. Other than that anomoly chrono is trash, and I stopped playing it because pretty much every other class elite can eat it for breakfast. Trust me Mes is in a pretty poor state at the moment, to the point where core Mes should only be used in PvE, Chrono is just awful for damage, and Mirage which is still playable but literally relies on two skills. So those complaining about being one shotted blame ANet who buffed slow skills for no other reason than because they trashed everything else Chrono can do. ANet have been killing build diversity for so long on all classes there are only a few viable ones to choose from, including pure cheese.

Good that we agree this should be

nerfed.

revamped.

[Mikkel.8427]

@Xstein.2187 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

Why did it suddenly be used after years of being a unused trait ?

Same could be said about a lot of mesmer skills people complain about here.

Take mantra of distraction for example:before it could stun 100% of the time with CS with no ICD, now it can'tbefore it could then stun 100% of the time with CS with a 5 sec ICD, now it can'tbefore it could then also stun with CS with a 15 sec ICD, now it can't-doesn't work with CS at all anymorebefore it could scale with critical hit damage on bower block, now it can't

Before HoT and PoF, mantra of distraction was a

LOT

more powerful.It is not like all these changes happened in quick succession either. Many versions were around for years.I'm not saying some stuff shouldn't have got nerfed or changed, but right now some people in this thread are complaining like these skills just popped up outa nowhere.

Hint: It's not because these skills got better-they got worse. It's because a lot of other mesmer skills have already been nerfed and now certain people, including WP, need to find something else to complain about because . . . . . . . . . .you know. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mesmers

To add on to this:Chaotic Interruption did NOT get better, and the build that's using it didn't just pop up out of nowhere. The CI build has been considered meme tier until recently for two reasons.1) Mesmer's other options have been nerfed. Mesmer has eaten a ton of nerfs across its core trait lines severely limiting build diversity. As far as Chaos GM traits are concerned, Prismatic Understanding has always been a mediocre choice (cant control a point while invisible...) and Bountiful Disillusionment was gutted. Chaotic Interruption is the only real option.2) Condi builds have been seeing major nerfs for a long time now on top of condi clears getting majorly buffed. Most people are running power builds in response to the general changes, dropping condi clears from their builds. The Chaotic Interruption builds are capitalizing on this. If we were in a Condi heavy meta and people were building for a reasonable amount of cleanse, this wouldn't even be a subject for discussion.

[viquing.8254]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Maybe stop rollfacing and get some condiclear/stab back in your builds ?

1. Who can faceroll a mesmer?Nobody because if you faceroll you will get lockdown.Now the guy who is perma CCed and immobilised did facerolling because no cast = no immob.
2. Who doesn't have condi clears in their build?Many players since we aren't in a condi meta.
3. How much stability/stun breaks can a 'build' (class specific) have?Bored to rewrite it explained : basically : scrapper, defense sb, holo with stab, thief, slb, gard shouldn't have issues against CI builds.

@Mikkel.8427 said:2) Condi builds have been seeing major nerfs for a long time now on top of condi clears getting majorly buffed. Most people are running power builds in response to the general changes, dropping condi clears from their builds. The Chaotic Interruption builds are capitalizing on this. If we were in a Condi heavy meta and people were building for a reasonable amount of cleanse, this wouldn't even be a subject for discussion.That's why I'm sure the day people take back condi clear on their build they should manage it.

[aetemes.2603]

I play mesmer it's 'my main'...and all of the other classes. I dont understand why I can reach 40 stacks of torment by just evading and not being even close to my target it's awesome? (literally pve dps uses the endurance sigil like lol?)...while my thief barely gets to 5 stacks and gets one shot if I'm out of an evade frame because I have to decide to actually be in their faces if I want to kill them and if I am condi I have to run around and waste time to allow condis to run their course. They both have the concept of having low hp.

I die on mesmer and some how the illusions tank damage forever.

I feel like mesmer should not be a damaging maniac at least in pvp and have all the cc and confusion and stealthing snd blinking around and inflicting stuns immobilizes cripple lol and the ability to ridiculously self boon stun break/reposition while stunned??...like it needs to be if you pick a route the other options are gone.

I hate to say this cause I was annoyed to the changes to chrono..but when I play other classes im like damn mesmers got it all?

When I first played mesmer my impression was it will be the chaotic factor for its team mates...so you help your teamates by being a nuisance that can't be easily dispatched then your teammates get to kill the enemies. When on its own its just a waste of time that wont really do much youd win by mucking around and chpping away. Not a one team assasin that when you see you should run for the hills...was hoping thatd be thief.

Anyways my perspective on what could help again I hate talking nerfs cause anet sometimes just way overdo it and they do it in such an unpolished boring way just shut people up.

The infinite horizon torment/bleeding needs to be toned down, either clone generation ability go down or the mesmer has to spend more time generating plenty of clones (not just three lol) to reach a point where the condis are a problem - this is what happened to condi thief (I prefer the latter to preserve mesmer identity).

Perhaps an internal cooldown on the rate of condi application/ambush being triggered by evasion for the clones?. Perhaps infinite horizon now makes your clones easier to kill as punishment. I am not a game programmer I don't know what's easy to do. Limit these changes to pvp?

But seeing a mesmer in wvw run thro a zerg because he feels he can burst the catapult real quick with the condis is...I dunno.

Then again honestly I don't pvp that much...so thats just my opinion. It's really hard thinking how to nerf classes without removing what makes them unique and fun especially after you've tasted it.