Pay-to-win 2.0

[Rod.6581]

@SoV.5139 said:

And youd own a ghost town.

Seems you know Free vs HoT vs PoF players ratio. Care to share with us?

[SoV.5139]

@Rod.6581 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

And youd own a ghost town.

Seems you know Free vs HoT vs PoF players ratio. Care to share with us?

This little non sequitur about the ratios of which players bought which xpacs doesnt really apply. That reasoning of taking away parts of the game that people already paid for until they pay for the current expansion is a fail regardless.

Did you forget (or not know) the game was originally b2p before making that statement?

As someone is bound to confuse or intentionally conflate the real issue here, I will once again add that no one is against paying for content. Players do get irritated by the monetizing of character power.

[Dhemize.8649]

An example of how it's possible to tackle expansions without kneecapping your audience: make each pack grant access to a unique race. Skritt, Tengu, whatever, but each one with its own story and cosmetics rather than P2W power creeps over a previous version. You'll avoid people like myself who learned their lesson from HoT and will avoid PoF knowing full well the next expansion will gut core, Hot, and PoF anyway. Might as well skip to the end if that's how it is. But if you have value in each (such as races) then even new people will be interested in going back to buy something that came out several years ago.

Too bad GW2 already sealed their fate with how they rolled out expansions. It really could have been something great but now they're trapped in a hole they dug.

[Rod.6581]

With all the time spent here qq-ing you could of earn enough to buy that expac, you know....

[Cyninja.2954]

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs.

Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P.

No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

You are literally saying it. The game is buy to play. Which part of that suddenly means don't buy expansions?

[SoV.5139]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs.

Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P.

No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

You are literally saying it. The game is buy to play. Which part of that suddenly means don't buy expansions?

Now the 6th time saying this, as people are now intentionally leaving it out of the quoted text. Per below:

As someone is bound to confuse or intentionally conflate the real issue here, I will once again add that no one is against paying for content. Players do get irritated by the monetizing of character power.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs. Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P. No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

As far as drastically overestimating the popularity of GW2, they advertise the game at 11 million players. Got any evidence that counters this?

Or this:

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

No one is overestimating the popularity. We are going with what the company advertises. /shrug.

That trailer quality in no way looks like 11million people play this game. How could you possibly believe that lie? (Advertisements are made to get people interested, they dont have to be fact lol)

[SoV.5139]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs. Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P. No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

As far as drastically overestimating the popularity of GW2, they advertise the game at 11 million players. Got any evidence that counters this?

Or this:

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

No one is overestimating the popularity. We are going with what the company advertises. /shrug.

That trailer quality in no way looks like 11million people play this game. How could you possibly believe that lie? (Advertisements are made to get people interested, they dont have to be fact lol)

The goal posts are now moved to the company lying about how many players play their game?

I'll trust them to report the correct concurrency numbers which they actually have before I trust someone on their forum who claims others are overestimating the games popularity but has zero evidence on the table to back it up.

You also intentionally snipped out the other location where they advertise this.

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

I have 2 citations of evidence where the company reports X# of people playing. I await your evidence.

Also: video quality = must be lying? Yeah, these two things are totally related. Seems legit. :persevere:

[Cyninja.2954]

@SoV.5139 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs. Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P. No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

As far as drastically overestimating the popularity of GW2, they advertise the game at 11 million players. Got any evidence that counters this?

Or this:

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

No one is overestimating the popularity. We are going with what the company advertises. /shrug.

That trailer quality in no way looks like 11million people play this game. How could you possibly believe that lie? (Advertisements are made to get people interested, they dont have to be fact lol)

The goal posts are now moved to the company lying about how many players play their game?

I'll trust them to report the correct concurrency numbers which they actually have before I trust someone on their forum who claims others are overestimating the games popularity but has zero evidence on the table to back it up.

You also intentionally snipped out the other location where they advertise this.

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

I have 2 citations of evidence where the company reports X# of people playing. I await your evidence.

Also: video quality = must be lying? Yeah, these two things are totally related. Seems legit. :persevere:

Those are accounts total, not active players. The math has been done multiple times and the number coincides with all past reports on accounts created. A well educated estimate is a player size of aproximately 1-1.2 million active players which play semi regularly.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@SoV.5139 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs. Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P. No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

As far as drastically overestimating the popularity of GW2, they advertise the game at 11 million players. Got any evidence that counters this?

Or this:

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

No one is overestimating the popularity. We are going with what the company advertises. /shrug.

That trailer quality in no way looks like 11million people play this game. How could you possibly believe that lie? (Advertisements are made to get people interested, they dont have to be fact lol)

The goal posts are now moved to the company lying about how many players play their game?

I'll trust them to report the correct concurrency numbers which they actually have before I trust someone on their forum who claims others are overestimating the games popularity but has zero evidence on the table to back it up.

You also intentionally snipped out the other location where they advertise this.

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

I have 2 citations of evidence where the company reports X# of people playing. I await your evidence.

Also: video quality = must be lying? Yeah, these two things are totally related. Seems legit. :persevere:

So your trusting a advertisement on delivering factual numbers? Now let me get this straight...

11mil players.Mega servers are implemented. WvW queues are never maxed. SPvP hotjoin rooms are empty. SPvP queues take forever. Alliances.

If this game really had 11mil players, whats the point of alliances, megaservers, and relinking?

Evidence is common sense, not "trusting advertisements".

[sephiroth.4217]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Hmm..

@sephiroth.4217 I guess your ? drop post wasn’t received well.

No it wasn't lolbut I dont mind, I wont split hairs over it.

[SoV.5139]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs. Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P. No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

As far as drastically overestimating the popularity of GW2, they advertise the game at 11 million players. Got any evidence that counters this?

Or this:

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

No one is overestimating the popularity. We are going with what the company advertises. /shrug.

That trailer quality in no way looks like 11million people play this game. How could you possibly believe that lie? (Advertisements are made to get people interested, they dont have to be fact lol)

The goal posts are now moved to the company lying about how many players play their game?

I'll trust them to report the correct concurrency numbers which they actually have before I trust someone on their forum who claims others are overestimating the games popularity but has zero evidence on the table to back it up.

You also intentionally snipped out the other location where they advertise this.

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

I have 2 citations of evidence where the company reports X# of people playing. I await your evidence.

Also: video quality = must be lying? Yeah, these two things are totally related. Seems legit. :persevere:

So your trusting a advertisement on delivering factual numbers? Now let me get this straight...

11mil players.Mega servers are implemented. WvW queues are never maxed. SPvP hotjoin rooms are empty. SPvP queues take forever. Alliances.

If this game really had 11mil players, whats the point of alliances, megaservers, and relinking?

Evidence is common sense, not "trusting advertisements".

I'll trust the company's own ad before I'll trust someone on the forums doomsaying the game.

The psychology is well known that when someone is not satisfied they tend to believe and also project that no one else is satisfied either.

WvW is a minority faction in the game. PvE and "fashion wars" is likely multiplicitively higher headcount. Its why they get far more attention than the PVP modes do.

Provide some actual evidence. I did, straight from the source.

[SoV.5139]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs. Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P. No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

As far as drastically overestimating the popularity of GW2, they advertise the game at 11 million players. Got any evidence that counters this?

Or this:

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

No one is overestimating the popularity. We are going with what the company advertises. /shrug.

That trailer quality in no way looks like 11million people play this game. How could you possibly believe that lie? (Advertisements are made to get people interested, they dont have to be fact lol)

The goal posts are now moved to the company lying about how many players play their game?

I'll trust them to report the correct concurrency numbers which they actually have before I trust someone on their forum who claims others are overestimating the games popularity but has zero evidence on the table to back it up.

You also intentionally snipped out the other location where they advertise this.

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

I have 2 citations of evidence where the company reports X# of people playing. I await your evidence.

Also: video quality = must be lying? Yeah, these two things are totally related. Seems legit. :persevere:

Those are accounts total, not active players. The math has been done multiple times and the number coincides with all past reports on accounts created. A well educated estimate is a player size of aproximately 1-1.2 million active players which play semi regularly.

Nope. It says players, not accounts.

Citations please. Where was this math shown?

I do see what the doomsayers are trying to do here. This is the perfect little derailment to draw attention away from having no answer for the ON TOPIC points actually made, so start a side debate on a different topic while bringing zero evidence to that conversation while dismissing evidence reported straight from the source.

Thats some pretty heavy goal post moving. Thats not a new planet NASA discovered. Its the goal posts, moved so far they are now tens of millions of miles past Pluto floating around in space.

[Cyninja.2954]

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs. Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P. No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

As far as drastically overestimating the popularity of GW2, they advertise the game at 11 million players. Got any evidence that counters this?

Or this:

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

No one is overestimating the popularity. We are going with what the company advertises. /shrug.

That trailer quality in no way looks like 11million people play this game. How could you possibly believe that lie? (Advertisements are made to get people interested, they dont have to be fact lol)

The goal posts are now moved to the company lying about how many players play their game?

I'll trust them to report the correct concurrency numbers which they actually have before I trust someone on their forum who claims others are overestimating the games popularity but has zero evidence on the table to back it up.

You also intentionally snipped out the other location where they advertise this.

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

I have 2 citations of evidence where the company reports X# of people playing. I await your evidence.

Also: video quality = must be lying? Yeah, these two things are totally related. Seems legit. :persevere:

Those are accounts total, not active players. The math has been done multiple times and the number coincides with all past reports on accounts created. A well educated estimate is a player size of aproximately 1-1.2 million active players which play semi regularly.

Nope. It says players, not accounts.

Citations please. Where was this math shown?

I do see what the doomsayers are trying to do here. This is the perfect little derailment to draw attention away from having no answer for the ON TOPIC points actually made, so start a side debate on a different topic while bringing zero evidence to that conversation while dismissing evidence reported straight from the source.

Thats some pretty heavy goal post moving. Thats not a new planet NASA discovered. Its the goal posts, moved so far they are now tens of millions of miles past Pluto floating around in space.

Please do some basic research.

The total number of accounts created was communicated multiple times over the games existance.

It's total accounts created.

Also as far a derailing, you were the one to brings this up.

[SoV.5139]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Instead of asking which MMORPGs require expansions, maybe give examples of pupolar MMORPGS which do NOT require expansions while granting full access to endgame content. I would be quite interested to know myself.

Vanilla WoW.Subscription based tho.

That game is not even out yet and they haven't ruled out to progressively introduce addons to Vanilla WoW too... also given it's subscription is connected to regular WoW...

@SoV.5139 said:The reasoning that other MMOs get away with this so its not big deal if they continue to do it, is simply an example of the market audience being well adjusted to a profoundly sick subculture. We typically find this type of reasoning rears its head sooner or later. Someone always shows up to point out that worse examples exist, fully believing this somehow justifies all lesser examples of it also existing. Likely the most popular one is "WOW double dips charging for subscriptions AND expansions, as well as paywalls their expansions" and by that reasoning it must be OK for all other MMOs to do the same. This reasoning is fully forgetting (or more likely purposely excluding) that GW2 was marketed as being the anti-clone MMO where players should NOT expect the same practices to occur, and this was a significantly large draw to GW2 as a game.

You are really reaching here with what was promised and how GW2 was supposed to be different than other MMOs. It's still the cheapest MMO or among the cheapest to play without being in anyway impaired. Yes, context matters and if far worse examples exist, one should be as fair to point those out. If almost the entire segment of the market is worse, then that should be pointed out too.

@SoV.5139 said:Keep in mind most of the clone-MMOs people use to justify these practices havent survived. The ones that have survived are games people migrated from to come play this one, some for the very reasons you point out as justifications...

You are drastically overestimating GW2 popularity versus the mentioned MMOs.

TL;DR:...not a great marketing decision to waffle on the entire premise of being a unique anti-clone-MMO, to engage in the same/similar practices the clones do, re-invoking/revisiting the very reasons why some of your audience left those games to come play your game.

I don't recall ever that Arenanet in any way said they would never charge or that players would never have to charge for content in the game. Fun side fact (even if I am all for removal of cash shop items as much as possible) if monetization via the gem store drops (be it due to regulation or w/e) expect that every player will have to pay more regularly since currently a lot of players not paying for game content are subsedized by others who spend more on the game.

Im not reaching at all. They marketed it as the game to come play when sick of the clone MMOs. Kept it B2P when most other games that were once subscription only went F2P. No one is against them charging for content. Players get irritated when character power is monetized.

As far as drastically overestimating the popularity of GW2, they advertise the game at 11 million players. Got any evidence that counters this?

Or this:

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

No one is overestimating the popularity. We are going with what the company advertises. /shrug.

That trailer quality in no way looks like 11million people play this game. How could you possibly believe that lie? (Advertisements are made to get people interested, they dont have to be fact lol)

The goal posts are now moved to the company lying about how many players play their game?

I'll trust them to report the correct concurrency numbers which they actually have before I trust someone on their forum who claims others are overestimating the games popularity but has zero evidence on the table to back it up.

You also intentionally snipped out the other location where they advertise this.

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

I have 2 citations of evidence where the company reports X# of people playing. I await your evidence.

Also: video quality = must be lying? Yeah, these two things are totally related. Seems legit. :persevere:

Those are accounts total, not active players. The math has been done multiple times and the number coincides with all past reports on accounts created. A well educated estimate is a player size of aproximately 1-1.2 million active players which play semi regularly.

Nope. It says players, not accounts.

Citations please. Where was this math shown?

I do see what the doomsayers are trying to do here. This is the perfect little derailment to draw attention away from having no answer for the ON TOPIC points actually made, so start a side debate on a different topic while bringing zero evidence to that conversation while dismissing evidence reported straight from the source.

Thats some pretty heavy goal post moving. Thats not a new planet NASA discovered. Its the goal posts, moved so far they are now tens of millions of miles past Pluto floating around in space.

Please do some basic research.

The total number of accounts created was communicated multiple times over the games existance.

It's total accounts created.

Also as far a derailing, you were the one to brings this up.

Please take your own advice. Citation required on your end. I provided 2 myself, straight from the company, who reports players, not accounts. Since they have access to their own numbers, and you do not, they are the more credible source here.

Also you are incorrect in myself bringing this up. I was told by another poster that the game isnt as popular as people are estimating it to be. So far 100% of the evidence on the table contradicts that claim. Doomsayers want to continue to claim otherwise, but bring 0 evidence to support it.

Objective observers understand the psychology here, as many of us have seen this hundreds of times. Some folks are not satisfied, and they feel their negative feedback is more credible if they can paint the picture that everyone else is also unsatisfied. In the land of make believe, if this feedback isnt listened to, it wont be a few niche players who stop playing, mass exodus will occur, and people will exit in droves. Its the "we aint just leaving the playground, but we taking the ball with us" of the video game world. The people posting this dont leave however, and have active histories over many years posting the same doomsaying. They are afraid that if they leave as threatened, no one else follows them out the proverbial door, and the game simply moves forward without them.

One form of this doomsaying is the repeated claims of dead game modes, population numbers shrinking, people ALREADY leaving in droves, which means those providing the negative feedback are even more heavily relied on to stay and support the game than in a normal situation where the population numbers are high. This makes it imperative to continue to report low population numbers, even to the point of contradicting the company's own reports if need be, even going as far as accusing them of lying about it when its brought up and the sources are linked.

Newsflash. This kind of doomsaying, especially when it reaches this level, actually makes the feedback appear less credible, not more.

Who plays a game made by a company who they believe is lying to them about population numbers in the first place?

Congratulations, ya played ya-self. /dj khaled.jpg

[Strider Pj.2193]

So... there is a thing called ‘Private messages’ in this forum. You’ve both detailed the topic, and provide no actual information to the topic at hand.

On topic: the P2W argument won’t die as it boils down to perspective. Used as a pejorative in most games, people in this game get offended that their game would be considered pay to win.

What do you win would be my first question.

But elite specs and some of the tools allowed by each expansion do provide some advantages.

While keeping the perspective of how the term Pay to Win began, this game does not qualify.

However, by a more literal definition, it is P2W.

[SoV.5139]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:So... there is a thing called ‘Private messages’ in this forum. You’ve both detailed the topic, and provide no actual information to the topic at hand.

On topic: the P2W argument won’t die as it boils down to perspective. Used as a pejorative in most games, people in this game get offended that their game would be considered pay to win.

What do you win would be my first question.

But elite specs and some of the tools allowed by each expansion do provide some advantages.

While keeping the perspective of how the term Pay to Win began, this game does not qualify.

However, by a more literal definition, it is P2W.

Selling character power straight cash, and/or paywalling it behind other purchases will be regarded as p2w by objective observers, regardless of how you or anyone else defines the term. While gw2 does not engage in the former, they do engage in the latter. Ive posted this multiple times in this thread, refuting your claim of being off topic. Id love if people actually addressed this very point, rather than start side bar conversations in order to try to bury points they cannot address in quantity based analysis paralysis, which is why I am bringing it up again.

[Furry.3801]

I believe it is in terms of players who like to progress faster. Using real money to buy gems and using these can help a player progress faster. This is true because of the way guild wars 2 was designed. I purchased the ultimate package to try out and realised that I still had to pay more money in future to progress in a good pace. So, I guess I won't be playing this game for long. It is too bad. I believe it is a great game if the company just really use the online shop to sell truly cosmetic items. But, I don't think it is so. They have change the game to a certain degree to even remove or adjust certain game elements because some people found ways to progress faster without using real money. I do understand the company needs to pay salaries and maintain servers costs. But, to put artificial game progression stoppers to make you play for longer periods is just not making the game fun. Example, to get the flying mounts, you would need gems to exchange for gold. That's like about 500 to 1000 gems. I have 4000 from the ultimate package, but, can you imagine those without these. It would take the player many hours to collect the amount of gold needed to get the mounts. The game has become a chore rather then a fun thing to do which I thought it would be once I got my dinosaur mount but, guess what, it would take huge amount of gold and effort to get the flying mount. Probably I need to get more gems in future, so that mean pay more real money. I don't think this is a good way to monetize the MMO. I do not think I can support such a practice for the long term. However, I must truly say Guild Wars 2 has great potential and is a great game. Please do consider making the progression smoother. Personally, I also don't quite like the huge story lines which is like a time sinker. I just want to discover the world by myself and not be hand hold all the time. There is no fun is a linear tour. And can you imagine if I could find a flying mount very earlier in the game and be able to explore the world better as least to have a good view, but of course, certain areas would be above my level, but, then it would be very fun and make it fun to know that there are so many things to be done. A few years ago, I tried playing the free addition and the progression was so painful, that I stopped playing it. I did not purchase the game because the progression make me think that the world would be limited or hard to get into because of the time requirements and slow progression. But, finally recently I purchase the ultimate addition thinking that it would be a nice change to try it and took my bet on it.

Yes, it was fun for the boost to level 80. But, then when I started to try to get the mounts, I again realised the progression would be a show stopper again (also the resource cost is high = real money needed ) I don't have huge amount of time to spent just grinding none stop. Since, I paid an expensive price for the package, I was expecting a a game with good progression, but it is still the same. Maybe Guild wars 2 is not for me afterall. I am not an expert on MMO. Maybe the designers can think about my small views here. Can something be done to improve progression and make player be more interested in playing? The slow progression is making me quit the game even before I go deep into it. (I have one character i leveled from 1 to 33 in free edition)

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@"Frye.4608" said:Why bother selling people stronger gear if you can let them skip that bit and pay straight into a 2.0+ K/D ratio which allows them to sustain the illusion of deserving it? Loot boxes or straight up advantages are one thing but very obvious. This is way smarter psychologically.

first, u cannot buy ascended gear regularly anywhere, and also only legendary weapons afaik, at least i saw nowhere legy armor sold. the difference between ascended and exotics isn't huge. at least by far not enough to give u a notable difference in kill/death ratio.

if u talk about server transfers, acutally often "high tier" servers aren't there because they're good. some few are stacked, but you as such get nothing out of that. you get free ppt, okay, but that gives u really nothing. the amount of kills you personally would get on the "bandwagoner" servers isn't more than u can get on a mediocre one, as long as the server works on teaching its pepes how to mash the keyboard buttons and gear their kittens (or at least tries to)

also u have to actively chase the stacking servers with the current system. relink otherwise laughs at you. in EU, currently the k/dR leads from strong guilds gathering on servers, because some other servers provide no fighting guilds, which makes proper raids impossible, since toxic troll guilds, roamers, or nooby guilds will try to gank lone raiding guilds. (happens pretty often sadly)

also it happens that core groups of servers leave and a former brokenly strong server becomes something between mediocre or weak i comparison to other stacked servers.

in terms of Wvw, you probably have the misunderstanding, like many new / casual players, that the aim is to win ppt score. nobody cares really about it, it's just comfiness (u have waypoints) if u win it, or u may want a specific matchup and therefore try to win it. but there are absolutely no rewards for ppt. killing players is independent from ppt, and mostly from gear as well. many own several full ascended chars, but when i make a new char, it also first starts exotic. and can still farm a ton of kills, if i know how to klick my buttons in time :bleep_bloop:

[Swagger.1459]

@kamikharzeeh.8016

This pointless thread has been dead for over a year.

[Junkpile.7439]

@Furry.3801 said:I believe it is in terms of players who like to progress faster. Using real money to buy gems and using these can help a player progress faster. This is true because of the way guild wars 2 was designed. I purchased the ultimate package to try out and realised that I still had to pay more money in future to progress in a good pace. So, I guess I won't be playing this game for long. It is too bad. I believe it is a great game if the company just really use the online shop to sell truly cosmetic items. But, I don't think it is so. They have change the game to a certain degree to even remove or adjust certain game elements because some people found ways to progress faster without using real money. I do understand the company needs to pay salaries and maintain servers costs. But, to put artificial game progression stoppers to make you play for longer periods is just not making the game fun. Example, to get the flying mounts, you would need gems to exchange for gold. That's like about 500 to 1000 gems. I have 4000 from the ultimate package, but, can you imagine those without these. It would take the player many hours to collect the amount of gold needed to get the mounts. The game has become a chore rather then a fun thing to do which I thought it would be once I got my dinosaur mount but, guess what, it would take huge amount of gold and effort to get the flying mount. Probably I need to get more gems in future, so that mean pay more real money. I don't think this is a good way to monetize the MMO. I do not think I can support such a practice for the long term. However, I must truly say Guild Wars 2 has great potential and is a great game. Please do consider making the progression smoother. Personally, I also don't quite like the huge story lines which is like a time sinker. I just want to discover the world by myself and not be hand hold all the time. There is no fun is a linear tour. And can you imagine if I could find a flying mount very earlier in the game and be able to explore the world better as least to have a good view, but of course, certain areas would be above my level, but, then it would be very fun and make it fun to know that there are so many things to be done. A few years ago, I tried playing the free addition and the progression was so painful, that I stopped playing it. I did not purchase the game because the progression make me think that the world would be limited or hard to get into because of the time requirements and slow progression. But, finally recently I purchase the ultimate addition thinking that it would be a nice change to try it and took my bet on it.

Yes, it was fun for the boost to level 80. But, then when I started to try to get the mounts, I again realised the progression would be a show stopper again (also the resource cost is high = real money needed ) I don't have huge amount of time to spent just grinding none stop. Since, I paid an expensive price for the package, I was expecting a a game with good progression, but it is still the same. Maybe Guild wars 2 is not for me afterall. I am not an expert on MMO. Maybe the designers can think about my small views here. Can something be done to improve progression and make player be more interested in playing? The slow progression is making me quit the game even before I go deep into it. (I have one character i leveled from 1 to 33 in free edition)

This is world vs world vs world forum. You could get better tips if you would post in players helping players or Guild Wars 2 Discussion forums. We don't really know how to get gold fast and other pve stuff.

[SweetPotato.7456]

What about all those free to play account that come to troll tactivators and spy on your server? that is definitely free.

[Thornwolf.9721]

This game is NOT pay to win, I suggest you move your attention to the original Arche-age because that my friends was pay to win. Hell arguably even ESO is pay to win with their optional sub giving you all the dlc content and more space in your bank, allowing you to do more for less..

[Aeolus.3615]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:This game is NOT pay to win, I suggest you move your attention to the original Arche-age because that my friends was pay to win. Hell arguably even ESO is pay to win with their optional sub giving you all the dlc content and more space in your bank, allowing you to do more for less..

The awfull balance and lack of atention to it made players start to see gw2 as pw2.Lets say the powercreep on some gimmicks release made it a bit more towards p2w since it was carrying most of us using those new specs... yet gw2 isnt p2w.

Games with easiers ways and more eficient with less effor needed to play on pay content that gives uperhand againt other players isa bit of p2w but that wont decide is a game is trully pw2 , gw2 used a bit this due its lack of balance but it doesnt make it a p2w game, people need to see IF is really ment to have a upper hand or if it's a issue of developer not caring about pvp balance in wich was the case.Games with powercreep consumes and items on store is pure p2w.

[devastoscz.9851]

Its ironic this is still going on when you have, currently, both core and HoT builds well in the mix of meta builds in both competitive game modes (Including PVE here is nonsensical, you can play whatever you want in PVE) Core guardian is a beast in Conquqest. Reaper and tempest are both top choices in PvP comps. Herald, Scrapper, Tempest, Reaper, Core Guard, Core Necro: all absolutely viable, if not outright meta zerg builds in WvW. Core Warrior is still the best roaming warrior out there (to be frank the whole class is honestly sub-par now, regardless of spec.)

Most other games will level cap you out of the gate if you don't buy their expacs. All your gear would be useless the second their DLC drops. Pay again for every new little piece of content or mission. This game does none of that. Implying GW2 is Pay to Win because it gates elite specs with the expansions is an incredible stretch when you objectively compare it to other business models in the genre. If you want access to ALL the variety of content, including new elites, pay for the Expac. The game went Free-to-Play, not Free-to-Have-Everything.