Nerf the Mirage Daze spam

mortrialus.3062 · July 9, 2019

@praqtos.9035 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge.40 seconds ?!?!?!?! To save ths aids immob proc? Are you okay there?Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.Yes, sure, why bother interrupting close to instant skills, lets just make it slow moving projectile and make it 3 time worse than distracting daggers that has inbuild power block, 3 charges recharging automatically, you are genius ! /s

I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile. Right now Mantra of Daze is being run at nearly 100% usage rate on both Power and Condi mesmers. And on NA at least in plat 2 Mesmers are making up 2-4 most games. Heck, I have had extremely close games where the enemy team was literally three Chaotic Interruption mesmers.

Mantra of Distraction might not need a projectile, but Mantra of Pain absolutely does. Instant cast damage like that should simply not be a thing in the game. Mantra of Distraction with Power Block still results in instant cast damage.

It's not that Chaotic Interruption as a trait needs to be saved. It's that I agree that mantras right now are too spammy. I call em like I see em. Simple as that.

Also I get the whole randomness is part of the flavor for Chaos themed skills, but randomly pulsing daze on Chaos Storm (Aegis too for that matter) is just too much high value randomness that this game was always trying to get away from.Improvisation ?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75791/rework-improvisation

viquing.8254 · July 9, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@viquing.8254 said:
@bravan.3876 said:O /
Don't worry, I will not comment again the pro/cons CI etc discussed here :
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/964579
The immobilize on Chaotic Interruption needs to get replaced by somehting else, maybe a blind which would fit into the defensive nature of the chaostraitline. It would still be annoying to fight against but not a lock down freekill on random spammed dazes anymore.
Also the mightstacks on CI have to go without any compensation, they don't fit into a defensive traitline at all. Anet has to learn that there needs to be remarkable opportunity costs in dmg for taking sustain (in particular passive sustain). Chaos and even Inspiration Mesmer still can have way to much dmg for the sustain they have. That is the problem for most classes, in particular side node bruiser.So what should happened if we do that is :
mesmers switch to PU builds. -> New thread about perma stealth mesmers op.
mesmers switch to full damage build like domi/duel/chrono or domi/duel/illusion or duel/illusion/mirage. -> Mesmer op burst/damage threads pop and classic mesmer too much condi threads still remain.
Lost Time needs to only proc on Interrupt, should not be able to crit and (not necessary) one sec less slow uptime. Atm it is a way better Power Block without the need of an interrupt.Then welcome back to chronophantasma (literally the only one chrono GM traits used since chronorelease before the last Lost time rework.) or switch of chrono to other above dps builds. -> again mesmers too much dps, one shot threads still remains.
Mantra of Pain needs to be reworked into something else (or at least get cd on recharge and inbetween uses, also lower dmg and reduce the might stacks to 6 or delete them fully)Actually I didn't see many mesmers running MoP dunno why it has issues but not a problem, rework it = switch back to other utility (saw Jazz with Illusion of Life for example or we can use another sustain utility.).

I mean you can nerf and nerf all you want, I can easily predict the next nerf thread chain because people will always cry. (And we still always find good reasons to nerf, skill subjective or not.)

It doesn't matter what ppl will cry about next for current balance suggestions and ofc there will always be low skilled ppl without any gameknowledge crying about Mesmer, no matter how bad it is. That doesn't mean i cannot address the really broken or low skill floor/ceiling stuff that exist and actually get used. The traits/skills i mentioned are clearly low effort high reward overperforming things need to get balanced. They are not the only ones, means some future complains will even make sense (like ofc PU is a noobcarrytrait too, if it will be viable in conquest is a different story). In the end as long as Chaos and Inspirationtraitline but also from other classes like Defensetraitline on warrior exist in the current state and as long as condis are so heavily wrong designed (like bursting with condis? where is the logic in that? not to mention i still can take more def stats during having that burst) ppl will find something they can get carried by.

Yeah so we can enter into a "skill" discussion if you want but in the current environnement, the "I clic, it does something" on the list you gave is kinda balanced.Moreover each time we start talking about "skill" we will go into a subjective discussion mixing efficiency with skill and so on.Like when I read your post

like ofc PU is a noobcarrytrait tooSo probably 80% of currents traits are noobcarry and no skills.You ideal build is a build with 0 sustain, power block and MoD, I get it but where is the diversity ?Give a try to https://www.coolmathgames.com/0-space-is-key or other same game if you want to prove something because I really think you mix gameplay options with efficiency with what you think is skill in your reasonnement.IMO PU is a gameplay choice, you drop damage to more sustain and repositionning option like most traits are and should be with pro and cons.If you continue with your logic, we will end with 1 unviable monogameplay build.

viquing.8254 · July 9, 2019

double post ...

bravan.3876 · July 9, 2019

@viquing.8254 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@viquing.8254 said:
@bravan.3876 said:O /
Don't worry, I will not comment again the pro/cons CI etc discussed here :
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/964579
The immobilize on Chaotic Interruption needs to get replaced by somehting else, maybe a blind which would fit into the defensive nature of the chaostraitline. It would still be annoying to fight against but not a lock down freekill on random spammed dazes anymore.
Also the mightstacks on CI have to go without any compensation, they don't fit into a defensive traitline at all. Anet has to learn that there needs to be remarkable opportunity costs in dmg for taking sustain (in particular passive sustain). Chaos and even Inspiration Mesmer still can have way to much dmg for the sustain they have. That is the problem for most classes, in particular side node bruiser.So what should happened if we do that is :
mesmers switch to PU builds. -> New thread about perma stealth mesmers op.
mesmers switch to full damage build like domi/duel/chrono or domi/duel/illusion or duel/illusion/mirage. -> Mesmer op burst/damage threads pop and classic mesmer too much condi threads still remain.
Lost Time needs to only proc on Interrupt, should not be able to crit and (not necessary) one sec less slow uptime. Atm it is a way better Power Block without the need of an interrupt.Then welcome back to chronophantasma (literally the only one chrono GM traits used since chronorelease before the last Lost time rework.) or switch of chrono to other above dps builds. -> again mesmers too much dps, one shot threads still remains.
Mantra of Pain needs to be reworked into something else (or at least get cd on recharge and inbetween uses, also lower dmg and reduce the might stacks to 6 or delete them fully)Actually I didn't see many mesmers running MoP dunno why it has issues but not a problem, rework it = switch back to other utility (saw Jazz with Illusion of Life for example or we can use another sustain utility.).

I mean you can nerf and nerf all you want, I can easily predict the next nerf thread chain because people will always cry. (And we still always find good reasons to nerf, skill subjective or not.)

It doesn't matter what ppl will cry about next for current balance suggestions and ofc there will always be low skilled ppl without any gameknowledge crying about Mesmer, no matter how bad it is. That doesn't mean i cannot address the really broken or low skill floor/ceiling stuff that exist and actually get used. The traits/skills i mentioned are clearly low effort high reward overperforming things need to get balanced. They are not the only ones, means some future complains will even make sense (like ofc PU is a noobcarrytrait too, if it will be viable in conquest is a different story). In the end as long as Chaos and Inspirationtraitline but also from other classes like Defensetraitline on warrior exist in the current state and as long as condis are so heavily wrong designed (like bursting with condis? where is the logic in that? not to mention i still can take more def stats during having that burst) ppl will find something they can get carried by.

Yeah so we can enter into a "skill" discussion if you want but in the current environnement, the "I clic, it does something" on the list you gave is kinda balanced.Moreover each time we start talking about "skill" we will go into a subjective discussion mixing efficiency with skill and so on.Like when I read your post

like ofc PU is a noobcarrytrait tooSo probably 80% of currents traits are noobcarry and no skills.You ideal build is a build with 0 sustain, power block and MoD, I get it but where is the diversity ?Give a try to
https://www.coolmathgames.com/0-space-is-key
or other same game if you want to prove something because I really think you mix gameplay options with efficiency with what you think is skill in your reasonnement.IMO PU is a gameplay choice, you drop damage to more sustain and repositionning option like most traits are and should be with pro and cons.If you continue with your logic, we will end with 1 unviable monogameplay build.

You forget that i said i would change all passive traitlines from all classes into something more active. I don't mind sustain as long as it is active and not nearly perma spammable, passive sustain should be reduced to a minimum. The general problem is how Anet cannot balance sustain and condis because both have too less opportunity costs. The whole meta is pretty braindead and noobfriendly atm because of that, not only Condimesmer.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · July 9, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:I'm personally hoping the uptick in Power Mesmer over Condition Mesmers between the May Balance Patch and now resulted in Mantra of Distraction taking a hit coincidentally hitting the new CI Condi Mirages that have shown up the past couple of weeks. Condition Mirage is the only class I have ever seen in a game repeatedly get more powerful as it gets nerfed because it awakens people to more broken stuff in the kit that was being overlooked.
Right now the Mantra Ammo Counts have a 24 second cooldown. If you spam and double cast the mantra rather than waiting on the ammo the cooldown for recharging the mantra is only 12 seconds to get both charges back, which also shaves 30s off of the Diversion the F3 Daze. So not only are you not punished for using it as frequently as possible rather than saving it and waiting on the ammo, you're actually rewarded with more frequent dazes and cooldown reduction on Diversion if you use it off cooldown.
That seems backwards to me. Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge. So if you're patient, if you time your interrupts better, you get more value out of them. But if you want to interrupt twice very frequently you have to pay for it with a higher cooldown to use interrupts again. And if face a mesmer and you see the two 2 mantra dazes done back to back you know they aren't going to be able to do so again for some time.
Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.
Also I get the whole randomness is part of the flavor for Chaos themed skills, but randomly pulsing daze on Chaos Storm (Aegis too for that matter) is just too much high value randomness that this game was always trying to get away from.

After 1v1ing this guy on his Mantra Condi Mirage for like 3 hours the other day, I had come to the conclusion that the bolded pretty much is where the problem is here. These mantra skills have no counter play. They should become projectiles that are able to be sighted and dodge rolled, or at the least put a 1/4ths cast animation on them.

I could not counter play against it even on a Bunker Druid that has access to two full bar cycling condi cleanses, an additional 4 condi cleanse on heal, and additional 2 condi cleanse on Lightning Reflexes, 4 ever cycling stun breaks, 10 stacks of stab with 16s duration off Strength of the Pack, stealth disengage resets, and various support skills from pet swapping. Any of you who are accustomed to side noding vs. my Druid should know that it is no easy 1v1 kill, but I couldn't do anything to this Mirage in a 1v1 situation.

The reason why I could not counter play is because the CC burst is too overwhelming in terms of it being instant use no-animation non projectile ranged, so it just immediately hits with no tells. When the first CC gets dropped, you have to stun break but that's not enough, more CCs are immediately on the way, including soft CCs like immob. So not only do you have to burn a full list of stun breaks to escape the burst here, but you also have to use condi clears to ensure the escape of immobilization. This presents an over pressuring situation, where condi clears are being used to escape immobilizations, instead of being used to mitigate the actual damage coming from the Condi Mirage. And this isn't even to mention the insane amount of burst that is actually coming off this build. At one point @mortrialus.3062 asked me to look at the death breakdown. It was something like 47k bleeding, and around 4k to 8k on other condi ticks. In a nutshell, that burst was dealing enough damage to kill my Druid 4x over. And that's just the burst we're talking about, this isn't even to mention the general attrition. Furthermore, it lays down so much pressure that there was little time to do anything but play 100% defensively. And the CCs can also be used not only for the super kill burst, but also to toss at an opponent to interrupt important cleansing & healing skills. Even if a player were to toss the CCs randomly, without even timing them, there are so many CCs rolling off this build, chances are you're going to interrupt a couple important skills, which will entirely screw over the guy who is fighting you. If you could see some tells, it wouldn't be anymore of an issue as it is to fight a CC heavy Spellbreaker. However, there are no tells for instant use skills, that are ranged none the less.

I really really want to point out what is special and unique about this particular balance inquiry. This is the first condi spec that we've seen, that is employing a ludicrous amount of CC in addition to its condi. Normally CC heavy builds are power based, and other builds that try to go condi with heavy CCs don't really work out too well. This build on the other hand, is not only functional & viable, but its offensive method is presenting something completely new into the intra-class dynamic. With the way utilities have been balanced through the years, they have been balanced around the idea that you use them to condi cleanse vs. an opponent, or to stun break vs. and opponent. It isn't so often that a skill such as Contemplation of Purity is actually used to burn off a big full bar of condis while stun breaking at the same time. Well not in pvp anyway, but wvw zerging is a different matter. Most of the time you are using it for either or. Well when you are against an opponent that is pumping out tons and tons of condis and large CC effects, sometimes the Contemplation of Purity needs to be used NOW to break a CC, but then won't be available for cleansing when you will need it soon. Or sometimes you need it to clear condis, but then it can't be used to stun break soon after. In other words, the consistent application of mid to heavy grade attrition condis, paired with a CC train & condi burst that is comparable to the damage of a Power based Mesmer, is too much pressure vs. what utilities currently offer considering the time of their CDs. There are not enough stun breaks & condi clears to go around on any build, to deal with this Condi Mantra Mirage. It pressures and baits out all of an opponent's utilities way too fast. This is especially painful considering that most utilities actually have animations to be able to be used, which means they cannot be used while undergoing some 8 seconds of a literal stun lock, which means you don't get to clear condis during the burst. <- That is just abusive. It's the first condi build we've seen where the condis are essentially a power burst due to this.

The only exception to the above statement is the case of Condi Mantras vs. Scrapper. THE ONLY THING that lets Scrapper get away with better survival rates vs. the Condi Mantra is due to this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose and all of the sources of rando small passive cleanse the Scrapper gets. Make sure you notice what immobilization turns into. The Scrapper also routinely cycles these no-animation small condi clears, so he can still cleanse and convert condis into boons during a CC lock up. The Scrapper is the only archetype that has a kit capable of dealing with such heavy condi burst/attrition/CC stun locking. Other archetypes will generally escape/survive the first round of the mantra burst, but once they've blown a full list of utilities to do so, they'll have nothing left for round 2 when the mantras come off their small CDs. This Condi Mantra Mirage is simply pumping out way too much offensive pressure, and it isn't "too much pressure for how much defense it has" no, it is too much offensive pressure period, regardless of how anyone views its level of defensive mechanisms, which is significant because it is Mirage based.

Important to note that I don't want to start a Mesmer hate bandwagon. This is just honest feedback after having an elongated 1v1 session vs. this build archetype. I personally feel that the sole problem here is Mantra of Distraction. Before power creep came, Mantra of Distraction was never really that big of an issue. Sure you could lock someone up with it, but before power creep, a person could actually survive that lock up. Now after power creep, a Mantra stun lock = you die immediately, especially if it's a team fight or you're getting plused on. This is a good example of how certain skills greatly scale up or down in usefulness depending on the power creep level. Other good examples are things like Litany Of Wrath, which has become a godly heal skill after the power creep. Or Heralds healing when getting hit, which is an amazing heal skill while in a power based meta that has such power creep.

To put this into an alternative perspective, for those who maybe aren't seeing why the mantras might need a rework on this instant ranged casting, let's imagine if some of the other classes were to be given some instant cast skills that laid down heavy CC:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

bravan.3876 · July 9, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down, it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that (but as Warrior i would hate that trade off tbh).
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you also need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except the instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

Mouse.7382 · July 9, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that.
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except an instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

Having played GW2 since near release, focusing mainly on Spvp (more PvE the last 2 seasons); any time <insert FOTM META class/build> has given me problems I could not figure out to counter, I created that same build and looked at animations/tells/cooldowns--all in an effort to understand and improve my gameplay. This has worked everytime. Thus, whenever I am fighting certain classes and certain builds--I 'generally' know what to expect (most ppl copy and paste META, rotations and runes/sigils--its so vanilla in nature), that its usually, personal skill, that decides the victor.

I can't understand why it is (and I read these forums daily) more people don't do this to improve their gameplay. I don't play enough Rev/Holo to understand them as well as I should--but do for the rest, including CI Mesmer. Not an issue (for me)--rather that, than say, Chronobunker.

I am old, and have been playing MMO PvP games probably longer than most of these players have been alive. I can say with a degree of confidence that 'complaining' due to lack of understanding, in a true pvp gamemode of other games, would make you cry.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · July 9, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down, it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that (but as Warrior i would hate that trade off tbh).
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you also need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except the instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

lol that's a strong strawman technique right there.

Let me go ahead and clear up the bogus misdirection you've created on my comments:

I understand and meant everything that I said. I believe the problem lies only within the core mechanics of Mantra of Distraction, and how it has scaled in utility alongside of the power creep. What I don't understand is how a person could even feasibly argue that this build is not using "lock down" techniques, lol. I actually laughed out loud for real when I read that you had said that. As far as nerfing CI, I believe it would be one way to nerf Mantra of Distraction, but it would be aiming a bit out of the court in terms of where the problem really is at, which is an on demand instant cast ranged CC that has absolutely no tells for counter play. In higher tiers of play, instant cast interrupts are AMAZINGLY powerful. More skilled players who wield such mechanics are able to interrupt heal skills almost every time, or some otherwise crucial skill that the opponent must be able to use or he will surely lose the match up.

Don't worry boys, I'm not asking for Mirage to be nerfed into the ground here. I'm simply pointing out that as we see more power creep, we will also see how chain CCs become more powerful. With the current state of balance, a Mirage with Mantra of Distraction could follow 1 Herald, and with only those 2 dazes if they are well placed, the Mirage could allow the Herald to repeatedly get 6s kills or less throughout the entire match. Those 2 dazes alone during an assist are over powered in terms of utility granted, and that is because the Mirage doesn't need to chase you in melee to use it, he doesn't need to rear his arm back and throw an F1 spear of justice like a DH, displaying animations that can be dodged, he doesn't fumble a Ranger LB #4 due to anti projectile bubbles. Nope, he simply takes a target, carefully watches the opponent status bar, and hits when the time is right. And it will hit.

Chilli.2976 · July 10, 2019

Just pop stability. 3Head

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Chilli.2976 said:Just pop stability. 3Head

I am happy to see that at least 1 from the mentioned 10 counters to Mantra have reached one person in this forum! 1Head

Trevor Boyer.6524 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down, it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that (but as Warrior i would hate that trade off tbh).
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you also need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except the instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

lol that's a strong strawman technique right there.

Let me go ahead and clear up the bogus misdirection you've created on my comments:

I understand and meant everything that I said. I believe the problem lies only within the core mechanics of Mantra of Distraction, and how it has scaled in utility alongside of the power creep. What I don't understand is how a person could even feasibly argue that this build is not using "lock down" techniques, lol. I actually laughed out loud for real when I read that you had said that. As far as nerfing CI, I believe it would be one way to nerf Mantra of Distraction, but it would be aiming a bit out of the court in terms of where the problem really is at, which is an on demand instant cast ranged CC that has absolutely no tells for counter play. In higher tiers of play, instant cast interrupts are AMAZINGLY powerful. More skilled players who wield such mechanics are able to interrupt heal skills almost every time, or some otherwise crucial skill that the opponent must be able to use or he will surely lose the match up.

Don't worry boys, I'm not asking for Mirage to be nerfed into the ground here. I'm simply pointing out that as we see more power creep, we will also see how chain CCs become more powerful. With the current state of balance, a Mirage with Mantra of Distraction could follow 1 Herald, and with only those 2 dazes if they are well placed, the Mirage could allow the Herald to repeatedly get 6s kills or less throughout the entire match. Those 2 dazes alone during an assist are over powered in terms of utility granted, and that is because the Mirage doesn't need to chase you in melee to use it, he doesn't need to rear his arm back and throw an F1 spear of justice like a DH, displaying animations that can be dodged, he doesn't fumble a Ranger LB #4 due to anti projectile bubbles. Nope, he simply takes a target, carefully watches the opponent status bar, and hits when the time is right. And it will hit.

Ok stay bad then and think Mantra of Distraction has no counterplay when i just mentioned tons. It is even one of the utilties with the most counterplay. Only CI creates the instant lock down not Mantra alone (Mantra alone is not a lock down, you can dodge every follow up). If you don't even get that simple difference it is pointless to argue. I know i am not the first person get the epiphany that talking to you is somehow pointless most of the time. I don't care if all classes get nerfed into the ground but i hate when classes get dumbed down because some random ppl have no clue how the game or the class works or are simply bad and waste more time in forums claiming wrong stuff, compare apples with oranges instead just l2p. All your examples are pointless, completely senseless and you don't even get what causes unbalance and low skillfloor/ceilling gameplay on mesmer atm and i explained very well why. Feels like you didn't understand anything i said, sry i have no dictionary "me - low gameknowledge player" that could help me translate what i said into something your mind can deal with.

My good stronk bro, we can agree to disagree.

Vieux P.1238 · July 10, 2019

the OP's is right. Nerf Holo Daze spam.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down, it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that (but as Warrior i would hate that trade off tbh).
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you also need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except the instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

lol that's a strong strawman technique right there.

Let me go ahead and clear up the bogus misdirection you've created on my comments:

I understand and meant everything that I said. I believe the problem lies only within the core mechanics of Mantra of Distraction, and how it has scaled in utility alongside of the power creep. What I don't understand is how a person could even feasibly argue that this build is not using "lock down" techniques, lol. I actually laughed out loud for real when I read that you had said that. As far as nerfing CI, I believe it would be one way to nerf Mantra of Distraction, but it would be aiming a bit out of the court in terms of where the problem really is at, which is an on demand instant cast ranged CC that has absolutely no tells for counter play. In higher tiers of play, instant cast interrupts are AMAZINGLY powerful. More skilled players who wield such mechanics are able to interrupt heal skills almost every time, or some otherwise crucial skill that the opponent must be able to use or he will surely lose the match up.

Don't worry boys, I'm not asking for Mirage to be nerfed into the ground here. I'm simply pointing out that as we see more power creep, we will also see how chain CCs become more powerful. With the current state of balance, a Mirage with Mantra of Distraction could follow 1 Herald, and with only those 2 dazes if they are well placed, the Mirage could allow the Herald to repeatedly get 6s kills or less throughout the entire match. Those 2 dazes alone during an assist are over powered in terms of utility granted, and that is because the Mirage doesn't need to chase you in melee to use it, he doesn't need to rear his arm back and throw an F1 spear of justice like a DH, displaying animations that can be dodged, he doesn't fumble a Ranger LB #4 due to anti projectile bubbles. Nope, he simply takes a target, carefully watches the opponent status bar, and hits when the time is right. And it will hit.

Ok stay bad then and think Mantra of Distraction has no counterplay when i just mentioned tons. It is even one of the utilties with the most counterplay. Only CI creates the instant lock down not Mantra alone (Mantra alone is not a lock down, you can dodge every follow up). If you don't even get that simple difference it is pointless to argue. I know i am not the first person get the epiphany that talking to you is somehow pointless most of the time. I don't care if all classes get nerfed into the ground but i hate when classes get dumbed down because some random ppl have no clue how the game or the class works or are simply bad and waste more time in forums claiming wrong stuff, compare apples with oranges instead just l2p. All your examples are pointless, completely senseless and you don't even get what causes unbalance and low skillfloor/ceilling gameplay on mesmer atm and i explained very well why. Feels like you didn't understand anything i said, sry i have no dictionary "me - low gameknowledge player" that could help me translate what i said into something your mind can deal with.

My good stronk bro, you are trying to shove over the focus to the small immob effect on CI, when literally no one is even complaining about that lol. I've said nothing about it, and the title of the thread is: "Nerf the Mirage Daze spam" lol. You are repeating stating that "Nothing makes sense to you" and I was wondering that perhaps that may be because you are not actually participating in the actual topic of the discussion, which is people discussing the daze spam on Mantra Of Distraction lol.

You mean the OP who is complaining about getting stunned and need to stunbreak permanently? Can't move for 10 secs even after using stunbreak? Yes he has just as much clue about what he is complaining about as you. Same lvl of game and class knowledge. Rofl. Even though he doesn't know what he is even complaining about you clearly can adapt that he is talking about Ci build, that is the only build includes a lock down he calls "stun" and "can't move after stunbreak".

Your whole post i quoted literally complained about CI not Mantra of Distraction but you don't even get that these are 2 different things. You make examples to vote for nerfs don't make sense at all. It is actually cringy how wrong you are. The "small immob effect" is exactly what everyone cries about and that with good reasons. I already explained why. Only with CI trait the Mantra becomes an instant lock down what should not exist. Mantra alone is not a lock down and for that can be instant. But CI is so rewarding that you don't even need to look for big skills to interrupt, you can just random interrupt some autoattacks and done. That kills most of the counterplay you have vs Mantra of Distraction alone, because you will never use any cds to cover autoattacks to not get interrupted. And every cover skill cd get outrun when you need to cover everything you do because otherwise you are locked down to death. But i think i can tell you the facts 100 times and you still will not understand.

You never saw a Mantra of Distraction or Mirage daze complain thread in this forum (not even back then when it had a stun from Confounding Suggestion included, that was op btw for the same reasons CI+Mantra is op), these threads coming up now with the use of CI as Metabuild. It is clearly to put into this context, even though the op doesn't even know what he is actually complaining about and use completely wrong terms.

Seems like you just try to use the opportunity to get something nerfed you have no clue how to counter, but that is a l2p issue on your side. I mentioned you 10 ways how to counter Mantra of Distraction itself. Take them or stay helpless for no reason. Can't say more than this.

praqtos.9035 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down, it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that (but as Warrior i would hate that trade off tbh).
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you also need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except the instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

lol that's a strong strawman technique right there.

Let me go ahead and clear up the bogus misdirection you've created on my comments:

I understand and meant everything that I said. I believe the problem lies only within the core mechanics of Mantra of Distraction, and how it has scaled in utility alongside of the power creep. What I don't understand is how a person could even feasibly argue that this build is not using "lock down" techniques, lol. I actually laughed out loud for real when I read that you had said that. As far as nerfing CI, I believe it would be one way to nerf Mantra of Distraction, but it would be aiming a bit out of the court in terms of where the problem really is at, which is an on demand instant cast ranged CC that has absolutely no tells for counter play. In higher tiers of play, instant cast interrupts are AMAZINGLY powerful. More skilled players who wield such mechanics are able to interrupt heal skills almost every time, or some otherwise crucial skill that the opponent must be able to use or he will surely lose the match up.

Don't worry boys, I'm not asking for Mirage to be nerfed into the ground here. I'm simply pointing out that as we see more power creep, we will also see how chain CCs become more powerful. With the current state of balance, a Mirage with Mantra of Distraction could follow 1 Herald, and with only those 2 dazes if they are well placed, the Mirage could allow the Herald to repeatedly get 6s kills or less throughout the entire match. Those 2 dazes alone during an assist are over powered in terms of utility granted, and that is because the Mirage doesn't need to chase you in melee to use it, he doesn't need to rear his arm back and throw an F1 spear of justice like a DH, displaying animations that can be dodged, he doesn't fumble a Ranger LB #4 due to anti projectile bubbles. Nope, he simply takes a target, carefully watches the opponent status bar, and hits when the time is right. And it will hit.

Ok stay helpless then and think Mantra of Distraction has no counterplay when i just mentioned tons. It is even one of the utilties with the most counterplay. Only CI creates the instant lock down not Mantra alone (Mantra alone is not a lock down, you can dodge every follow up). If you don't even get that simple difference it is pointless to argue. I know i am not the first person get the epiphany that talking to you is somehow pointless most of the time. I don't care if all classes get nerfed into the ground but i hate when classes get dumbed down because some random ppl have no clue how the game or the class works or are simply bad and waste more time in forums claiming wrong stuff, compare apples with oranges instead just l2p. All your examples are pointless, completely senseless and you don't even get what causes unbalance and low skillfloor/ceilling gameplay on mesmer atm and i explained very well why. Feels like you didn't understand anything i said.Damn that sounds like Eminem - Killshot, I just witnessed a murder !@Trevor Boyer.6524 and his "knowledable community" strats to nerf mesmer AGAIN through nering it in wrong place. Tell me arent you tired yourself ?That would be exactly same dumb as I would make random rant about every ranger ability and come to a "conclusion" every skill is broken and need about 90% cooldown increase and make half of utilities that ranger has utter garbage and half of its traitlines as well.

praqtos.9035 · July 10, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge.40 seconds ?!?!?!?! To save ths aids immob proc? Are you okay there?Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.Yes, sure, why bother interrupting close to instant skills, lets just make it slow moving projectile and make it 3 time worse than distracting daggers that has inbuild power block, 3 charges recharging automatically, you are genius ! /s

I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile. Right now Mantra of Daze is being run at nearly 100% usage rate on both Power and Condi mesmers. And on NA at least in plat 2 Mesmers are making up 2-4 most games. Heck, I have had extremely close games where the enemy team was literally three Chaotic Interruption mesmers.It being ran 100% because CI on condi mirage with maximum condi duration makes it 3 seconds, you have to stay stationary and take this phantasmal duelist with over ~16 bleeds from 1 skill that delete 50% of your health alone, just as other damage sources.Mesmer is currently running low on useful utilities. Trying to save CI through nerfing even more utilities like they did with chronophantasma post phantasm rework, instead of keep them usable they prefer to nerf phantasms first,then nerf the trait, is that what you want? So its best in slot for power mesmer as it work with power block (interrupt key abilities for long cooldown while damage is abysmal) or lost time that start to do damage and F3 has insane long cooldown.Just put 1 second internal cooldown on LT(because bunch of CC thrown at once wont be a burst damage but proc small damage and slow), replace 100% immob on another control condition - chill. (blind is on ineptitude, weakness is on power block, cripple is on GS traits)Mantra of Distraction might not need a projectile, but Mantra of Pain absolutely does. Instant cast damage like that should simply not be a thing in the game. Mantra of Distraction with Power Block still results in instant cast damage.It's not that Chaotic Interruption as a trait needs to be saved. It's that I agree that mantras right now are too spammy. I call em like I see em. Simple as that.CI have no rights to preserve its immobilize effect. You can solve the issues without making yet another dead utilities that mesmer has more than enough. I suggested two above.About RNG... There is absolutely no place for luck when its comes to competitive game modes, no one should win or lose because of RNG.

Lincolnbeard.1735 · July 10, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile.

On one hand this game is so spammy that chances are you always interrupt something.That's what you get when the base design of game is so poorly thought but that's another talk.On the other hand in a game where most skills are 3/4sec cast time 1/2 interrupt is awfully bad, unless you preemptively interrupt there's no way you interrupt something, of course, this is solved by the first point.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile.

On one hand this game is so spammy that chances are you always interrupt something.That's what you get when the base design of game is so poorly thought but that's another talk.On the other hand in a game where most skills are 3/4sec cast time 1/2 interrupt is awfully bad, unless you preemptively interrupt there's no way you interrupt something, of course, this is solved by the first point.

You would get random interrupts also in core game already where the game wasn't that spammy (spammy in terms of you can be useful when you just random spam your skills on cd). The normal not spammy game design with no cd autoattacks makes it possible already. Means the game being so spammy is not even the main reason.

The way he says he interrupted "something" already shows where the problem lies. Ppl use pistol 5 to stun lock for the pistol phantams and other skills to hit, not to interrupt specific skills on purpose. Main reason why you still get random interrupts without going for them on purpose is what i said about your opponent is not able to cover everyhting he does, in particular will not use cover skills to cover autoattacks. Means you often will get an interrupt on autoattacks or other skills wihtout even going for it. No one has enough cover cds to cover everything he does. An instant range interrupt skill is only not op when the effect which is combined with is not that high, that you can just mindless spam it and hope for the best. CI is too much of a reward because it turns mantra into an instant lock down only needs to interrupt autoattacks to kill opponents. Instant lock down should not exist in general. Lost Time is too much because it doesn't even need an interrupt, means you can just spam mantra for the too high dmg + slow what is just as broken as a mechanic as Mantra of Pain.

@praqtos.9035 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down, it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that (but as Warrior i would hate that trade off tbh).
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you also need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except the instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

lol that's a strong strawman technique right there.

Let me go ahead and clear up the bogus misdirection you've created on my comments:

I understand and meant everything that I said. I believe the problem lies only within the core mechanics of Mantra of Distraction, and how it has scaled in utility alongside of the power creep. What I don't understand is how a person could even feasibly argue that this build is not using "lock down" techniques, lol. I actually laughed out loud for real when I read that you had said that. As far as nerfing CI, I believe it would be one way to nerf Mantra of Distraction, but it would be aiming a bit out of the court in terms of where the problem really is at, which is an on demand instant cast ranged CC that has absolutely no tells for counter play. In higher tiers of play, instant cast interrupts are AMAZINGLY powerful. More skilled players who wield such mechanics are able to interrupt heal skills almost every time, or some otherwise crucial skill that the opponent must be able to use or he will surely lose the match up.

Don't worry boys, I'm not asking for Mirage to be nerfed into the ground here. I'm simply pointing out that as we see more power creep, we will also see how chain CCs become more powerful. With the current state of balance, a Mirage with Mantra of Distraction could follow 1 Herald, and with only those 2 dazes if they are well placed, the Mirage could allow the Herald to repeatedly get 6s kills or less throughout the entire match. Those 2 dazes alone during an assist are over powered in terms of utility granted, and that is because the Mirage doesn't need to chase you in melee to use it, he doesn't need to rear his arm back and throw an F1 spear of justice like a DH, displaying animations that can be dodged, he doesn't fumble a Ranger LB #4 due to anti projectile bubbles. Nope, he simply takes a target, carefully watches the opponent status bar, and hits when the time is right. And it will hit.

Ok stay helpless then and think Mantra of Distraction has no counterplay when i just mentioned tons. It is even one of the utilties with the most counterplay. Only CI creates the instant lock down not Mantra alone (Mantra alone is not a lock down, you can dodge every follow up). If you don't even get that simple difference it is pointless to argue. I know i am not the first person get the epiphany that talking to you is somehow pointless most of the time. I don't care if all classes get nerfed into the ground but i hate when classes get dumbed down because some random ppl have no clue how the game or the class works or are simply bad and waste more time in forums claiming wrong stuff, compare apples with oranges instead just l2p. All your examples are pointless, completely senseless and you don't even get what causes unbalance and low skillfloor/ceilling gameplay on mesmer atm and i explained very well why. Feels like you didn't understand anything i said.kitten that sounds like Eminem - Killshot, I just witnessed a murder !:joy:

Lincolnbeard.1735 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 yes you could random rupt in GW1 too, but would anyone waste a rupt to try to catch something random? Rupts in the first game we're more important than on this one.The only reason to try to preemptively rupt in gw1 was to catch some Monk key skills.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@bravan.3876 yes you could random rupt in GW1 too, but would anyone waste a rupt to try to catch something random? Rupts in the first game we're more important than on this one.

Yes that is what you have with Power Block Mantra or post nerfed Headshot too. The dmg from both are not high enough anymore to make it worth to be spammed on random stuff in particular only autoattacks. That is why this is balanced and skillful gameplay what has plenty of counterplay. Traits/ skills rewarding for active/ reactive (interrupt-) gameplay in a not op way is one of the best game mechanics and I am happy to fight every Thief or Power Block Mesmer just spamm their interrupts randomly. They don't do anything to me, no matter what class i play, and that even when they get a lucky interrupt on a bigger skill here and there, because their opportunity costs are too high to make that rewarding and to win the fight. This is something needs skill to play but also needs skill to play against and that is exactly how it should be.Sadly all the casual randoms will always have a problem with stuff that also needs skill to play against, they always will feel that it is op because it is something beyond their horizon. And when they then just try to get carried by what they cry about, they get rekt. Main reason why mesmers get so much more hate even on builds not op compared to other classes on meta builds.

praqtos.9035 · July 10, 2019

@"bravan.3876"

The way he says he interrupted "something" already shows where the problem lies. Ppl use pistol 5 to stun lock for the pistol phantams and other skills to hit, not to interrupt specific skills on purpose. Main reason why you still get random interrupts without going for them on purpose is what i said about your opponent is not able to cover everyhting he does, in particular will not use cover skills to cover autoattacks. Means you often will get an interrupt on autoattacks or other skills wihtout even going for itPistol 5 mean not to interrupt but stunlock .. hence why it has 2.5s STUN (I dont get why they gave it 0.5s more stun,its felt long enough anyway, unless they badly want mesmers to use it or to nerf it to hell with next patch).Interrupt problem lies only within chaos interruption as your opponent immobed for 2-3s.During core/HoT days it was a meme, taking chaos meant huge damage loss, all classes were kinda fat and very hard to kill for mesmer, everyone had tons of stab. Now we have condi mirage which damage output depends on the dueling traitline and bunker chrono that get the damage from lost time and might stacks(which is problem for every class who solely can maintain high might stacks)Also interrupt something for CI is a legit thing as you want this boons badly and want your grandmaster trait to give you something and not to be a dead weight, its just shouldnt have immobilize so they can... just dodge 4head :joy:

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@praqtos.9035 said:@"bravan.3876"
The way he says he interrupted "something" already shows where the problem lies. Ppl use pistol 5 to stun lock for the pistol phantams and other skills to hit, not to interrupt specific skills on purpose. Main reason why you still get random interrupts without going for them on purpose is what i said about your opponent is not able to cover everyhting he does, in particular will not use cover skills to cover autoattacks. Means you often will get an interrupt on autoattacks or other skills wihtout even going for itPistol 5 mean not to interrupt but stunlock .. hence why it has 2.5s STUN (I dont get why they gave it 0.5s more stun... unless they badly want to use it or to nerf it to hell with next patch )Interrupt problem lies only within chaos interruption as your opponent immobed for 2-3s.Also interrupt something for CI is a legit thing as you want this boons badly and want your grandmaster trait to give you something and not to be a dead weight, its just shouldnt have immobilize so they can... just dodge 4head :joy:

Yes give them boons but onyl defensive boons. The mighstacking is another op thing doesn't fit with that defensive traitline. I think chill instead immob would still be too strong. Imagine being perma chilled...

praqtos.9035 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:@bravan.3876
The way he says he interrupted "something" already shows where the problem lies. Ppl use pistol 5 to stun lock for the pistol phantams and other skills to hit, not to interrupt specific skills on purpose. Main reason why you still get random interrupts without going for them on purpose is what i said about your opponent is not able to cover everyhting he does, in particular will not use cover skills to cover autoattacks. Means you often will get an interrupt on autoattacks or other skills wihtout even going for itPistol 5 mean not to interrupt but stunlock .. hence why it has 2.5s STUN (I dont get why they gave it 0.5s more stun... unless they badly want to use it or to nerf it to hell with next patch )Interrupt problem lies only within chaos interruption as your opponent immobed for 2-3s.Also interrupt something for CI is a legit thing as you want this boons badly and want your grandmaster trait to give you something and not to be a dead weight, its just shouldnt have immobilize so they can... just dodge 4head :joy:

Yes give them boons but onyl defensive boons. The mighstacking is another op thing doesn't fit with that defensive traitline. I think chill instead immob would still be too strong. Imagine being perma chilled...I imagine reapers, I imagine chill nerf threads and all of them gave an answer - chill is fine l2p. Chill is exist as random option anyway, mesmer can apply various conditions depends on the other traits and weapon, chill would fit as one of control conditions to manipulate cooldowns - thematically.Why only defensive boons? Its flavor of the chaos to apply random boons and conditions and to make this one work you have to interrupt otherwise you get nothing + stability counter completely any CC. Yet it wouldnt prevent anyone from evading or using a cleanse.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@praqtos.9035 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:@bravan.3876
The way he says he interrupted "something" already shows where the problem lies. Ppl use pistol 5 to stun lock for the pistol phantams and other skills to hit, not to interrupt specific skills on purpose. Main reason why you still get random interrupts without going for them on purpose is what i said about your opponent is not able to cover everyhting he does, in particular will not use cover skills to cover autoattacks. Means you often will get an interrupt on autoattacks or other skills wihtout even going for itPistol 5 mean not to interrupt but stunlock .. hence why it has 2.5s STUN (I dont get why they gave it 0.5s more stun... unless they badly want to use it or to nerf it to hell with next patch )Interrupt problem lies only within chaos interruption as your opponent immobed for 2-3s.Also interrupt something for CI is a legit thing as you want this boons badly and want your grandmaster trait to give you something and not to be a dead weight, its just shouldnt have immobilize so they can... just dodge 4head :joy:

Yes give them boons but onyl defensive boons. The mighstacking is another op thing doesn't fit with that defensive traitline. I think chill instead immob would still be too strong. Imagine being perma chilled...I imagine reapers, I imagine chill nerf threads and all of them gave an answer - chill is fine l2p. Chill is exist as random option anyway, mesmer can apply various conditions depends on the other traits and weapon, chill would fit as one of control conditions to manipulate cooldowns - thematically.Why only defensive boons? Its flavor of the chaos to apply random boons and conditions and to make this one work you have to interrupt otherwise you get nothing + stability counter completely any CC. Yet it wouldnt prevent anyone from evading or using a cleanse.

Aight im ok with trying it and see how it goes with the chill. But i stay with no mightstacks in defensive traitlines. When you pick defense you need to have opportunity costs in dmg.

praqtos.9035 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:@bravan.3876
The way he says he interrupted "something" already shows where the problem lies. Ppl use pistol 5 to stun lock for the pistol phantams and other skills to hit, not to interrupt specific skills on purpose. Main reason why you still get random interrupts without going for them on purpose is what i said about your opponent is not able to cover everyhting he does, in particular will not use cover skills to cover autoattacks. Means you often will get an interrupt on autoattacks or other skills wihtout even going for itPistol 5 mean not to interrupt but stunlock .. hence why it has 2.5s STUN (I dont get why they gave it 0.5s more stun... unless they badly want to use it or to nerf it to hell with next patch )Interrupt problem lies only within chaos interruption as your opponent immobed for 2-3s.Also interrupt something for CI is a legit thing as you want this boons badly and want your grandmaster trait to give you something and not to be a dead weight, its just shouldnt have immobilize so they can... just dodge 4head :joy:

Yes give them boons but onyl defensive boons. The mighstacking is another op thing doesn't fit with that defensive traitline. I think chill instead immob would still be too strong. Imagine being perma chilled...I imagine reapers, I imagine chill nerf threads and all of them gave an answer - chill is fine l2p. Chill is exist as random option anyway, mesmer can apply various conditions depends on the other traits and weapon, chill would fit as one of control conditions to manipulate cooldowns - thematically.Why only defensive boons? Its flavor of the chaos to apply random boons and conditions and to make this one work you have to interrupt otherwise you get nothing + stability counter completely any CC. Yet it wouldnt prevent anyone from evading or using a cleanse.

Aight im ok with trying it and see how it goes with the chill. But i stay with no mightstacks in defensive traitlines. When you pick defense you need to have opportunity costs in dmg.Chaos itself offer no damage... You didnt read my edited comment let me ...During core/HoT days it was a meme, taking chaos meant huge damage loss, all classes were kinda fat and very hard to kill for mesmer, everyone had tons of stab so it was so hard to interrupt something. Now we have condi mirage which damage output depends on the dueling traitline and bunker chrono that get the damage from lost time and might stacks(which is problem for every class who solely can maintain high might stacks)

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@praqtos.9035 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:@bravan.3876
The way he says he interrupted "something" already shows where the problem lies. Ppl use pistol 5 to stun lock for the pistol phantams and other skills to hit, not to interrupt specific skills on purpose. Main reason why you still get random interrupts without going for them on purpose is what i said about your opponent is not able to cover everyhting he does, in particular will not use cover skills to cover autoattacks. Means you often will get an interrupt on autoattacks or other skills wihtout even going for itPistol 5 mean not to interrupt but stunlock .. hence why it has 2.5s STUN (I dont get why they gave it 0.5s more stun... unless they badly want to use it or to nerf it to hell with next patch )Interrupt problem lies only within chaos interruption as your opponent immobed for 2-3s.Also interrupt something for CI is a legit thing as you want this boons badly and want your grandmaster trait to give you something and not to be a dead weight, its just shouldnt have immobilize so they can... just dodge 4head :joy:

Yes give them boons but onyl defensive boons. The mighstacking is another op thing doesn't fit with that defensive traitline. I think chill instead immob would still be too strong. Imagine being perma chilled...I imagine reapers, I imagine chill nerf threads and all of them gave an answer - chill is fine l2p. Chill is exist as random option anyway, mesmer can apply various conditions depends on the other traits and weapon, chill would fit as one of control conditions to manipulate cooldowns - thematically.Why only defensive boons? Its flavor of the chaos to apply random boons and conditions and to make this one work you have to interrupt otherwise you get nothing + stability counter completely any CC. Yet it wouldnt prevent anyone from evading or using a cleanse.

Aight im ok with trying it and see how it goes with the chill. But i stay with no mightstacks in defensive traitlines. When you pick defense you need to have opportunity costs in dmg.Chaos itself offer no damage... You didnt read my edited comment let me ...During core/HoT days it was a meme, taking chaos meant huge damage loss, all classes were kinda fat and very hard to kill for mesmer, everyone had tons of stab so it was so hard to interrupt something. Now we have condi mirage which damage output depends on the dueling traitline and bunker chrono that get the damage from lost time and might stacks(which is problem for every class who solely can maintain high might stacks)

Chaos itself shouldn't offer dmg because it gives high sustain. If you keep the mighstacks in chaos then chaos in fact gives dmg in additon to sustain and that contradicts the basics of good balance.

Nerf the Mirage Daze spam

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