Nerf the Mirage Daze spam

Trevor Boyer.6524 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
Your whole post i quoted literally stated exactly how I feel about CI and Mantra of Distraction. I was misunderstanding what you meant the first time around and I'll try not to convolute or misrepresents your statements in the future to fuel my own agenda.

It's all good man. No worries.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
Your whole post i quoted literally stated exactly how I feel about CI and Mantra of Distraction. I was misunderstanding what you meant the first time around and I'll try not to convolute or misrepresents your statements in the future to fuel my own agenda.

It's all good man. No worries.

That nearly borders on propaganda. Can you stop please? I use my time to to argue logically and explaining with lot of facts why you make wrong comparisions and try to be as friendly as possible during facing narrowed ppl trying to make balance assumptions and suggestions without having any game or class knowledge. You don't even understand your own post in which you complained about CI not Mantra (then later you claimed you never complained about the little immob effect on CI, this post you edited because at least you got that you were wrong in that one). I stop arguing with you at this point because it is really senseless.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
Your whole post i quoted literally stated exactly how I feel about CI and Mantra of Distraction. I was misunderstanding what you meant the first time around and I'll try not to convolute or misrepresents your statements in the future to fuel my own agenda.

It's all good man. No worries.

That nearly borders on propaganda. Can you stop please? I use my time to to argue logically and explaining wiht lot of facts why you make wrong comparisions and try to be as friendly as possible during facing narrowed ppl trying to make assumptions and suggestions without having any game or class knowledge. You don't even understand your own post in which you complained about CI not Mantra (then later you claimed you never complained about the little immob effect on CI, this post you edited because at least you got that you were wrong in that one). I stop arguing with you at this point because it is really senseless.

If you can post for me, right now, an actual quote of me complaining about CI, we can stop this now. Otherwise my friend, you'll have to accept that you have attempted to strawman my statements.

~ Challenge set, go! See if you can do it! The world is watching our argument! It matters! Defend yourself!

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:I'm personally hoping the uptick in Power Mesmer over Condition Mesmers between the May Balance Patch and now resulted in Mantra of Distraction taking a hit coincidentally hitting the new CI Condi Mirages that have shown up the past couple of weeks. Condition Mirage is the only class I have ever seen in a game repeatedly get more powerful as it gets nerfed because it awakens people to more broken stuff in the kit that was being overlooked.
Right now the Mantra Ammo Counts have a 24 second cooldown. If you spam and double cast the mantra rather than waiting on the ammo the cooldown for recharging the mantra is only 12 seconds to get both charges back, which also shaves 30s off of the Diversion the F3 Daze. So not only are you
not
punished for using it as frequently as possible rather than saving it and waiting on the ammo, you're actually rewarded with more frequent dazes and cooldown reduction on Diversion if you use it off cooldown.
That seems backwards to me. Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge. So if you're patient, if you time your interrupts better, you get more value out of them. But if you want to interrupt twice very frequently you have to pay for it with a higher cooldown to use interrupts again. And if face a mesmer and you see the two 2 mantra dazes done back to back you know they aren't going to be able to do so again for some time.
Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.

Also I get the whole randomness is part of the flavor for Chaos themed skills, but randomly pulsing daze on Chaos Storm (Aegis too for that matter) is just too much high value randomness that this game was always trying to get away from.

After 1v1ing this guy on his Mantra Condi Mirage for like 3 hours the other day, I had come to the conclusion that the bolded pretty much is where the problem is here. These mantra skills have no counter play. They should become projectiles that are able to be sighted and dodge rolled, or at the least put a 1/4ths cast animation on them.

I could not counter play against it even on a Bunker Druid that has access to two full bar cycling condi cleanses, an additional 4 condi cleanse on heal, and additional 2 condi cleanse on Lightning Reflexes, 4 ever cycling stun breaks, 10 stacks of stab with 16s duration off Strength of the Pack, stealth disengage resets, and various support skills from pet swapping. Any of you who are accustomed to side noding vs. my Druid should know that it is no easy 1v1 kill, but I couldn't do anything to this Mirage in a 1v1 situation.

The reason why I could not counter play is because the CC burst is too overwhelming in terms of it being instant use no-animation non projectile ranged, so it just immediately hits with no tells. When the first CC gets dropped, you have to stun break but that's not enough, more CCs are immediately on the way, including soft CCs like immob. So not only do you have to burn a full list of stun breaks to escape the burst here, but you also have to use condi clears to ensure the escape of immobilization. This presents an over pressuring situation, where condi clears are being used to escape immobilizations, instead of being used to mitigate the actual damage coming from the Condi Mirage. And this isn't even to mention the insane amount of burst that is actually coming off this build. At one point @mortrialus.3062 asked me to look at the death breakdown. It was something like 47k bleeding, and around 4k to 8k on other condi ticks. In a nutshell, that burst was dealing enough damage to kill my Druid 4x over. And that's just the burst we're talking about, this isn't even to mention the general attrition. Furthermore, it lays down so much pressure that there was little time to do anything but play 100% defensively. And the CCs can also be used not only for the super kill burst, but also to toss at an opponent to interrupt important cleansing & healing skills. Even if a player were to toss the CCs randomly, without even timing them, there are so many CCs rolling off this build, chances are you're going to interrupt a couple important skills, which will entirely screw over the guy who is fighting you. If you could see some tells, it wouldn't be anymore of an issue as it is to fight a CC heavy Spellbreaker. However, there are no tells for instant use skills, that are ranged none the less.

I really really want to point out what is special and unique about this particular balance inquiry. This is the first condi spec that we've seen, that is employing a ludicrous amount of CC in addition to its condi. Normally CC heavy builds are power based, and other builds that try to go condi with heavy CCs don't really work out too well. This build on the other hand, is not only functional & viable, but its offensive method is presenting something completely new into the intra-class dynamic. With the way utilities have been balanced through the years, they have been balanced around the idea that you use them to condi cleanse vs. an opponent, or to stun break vs. and opponent. It isn't so often that a skill such as Contemplation of Purity is actually used to burn off a big full bar of condis while stun breaking at the same time. Well not in pvp anyway, but wvw zerging is a different matter. Most of the time you are using it for either or. Well when you are against an opponent that is pumping out tons and tons of condis and large CC effects, sometimes the Contemplation of Purity needs to be used NOW to break a CC, but then won't be available for cleansing when you will need it soon. Or sometimes you need it to clear condis, but then it can't be used to stun break soon after. In other words, the consistent application of mid to heavy grade attrition condis, paired with a CC train & condi burst that is comparable to the damage of a Power based Mesmer, is too much pressure vs. what utilities currently offer considering the time of their CDs. There are not enough stun breaks & condi clears to go around on any build, to deal with this Condi Mantra Mirage. It pressures and baits out all of an opponent's utilities way too fast. This is especially painful considering that most utilities actually have animations to be able to be used, which means they cannot be used while undergoing some 8 seconds of a literal stun lock, which means you don't get to clear condis during the burst. <- That is just abusive. It's the first condi build we've seen where the condis are essentially a power burst due to this.

The only exception to the above statement is the case of Condi Mantras vs. Scrapper. THE ONLY THING that lets Scrapper get away with better survival rates vs. the Condi Mantra is due to this:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose

and all of the sources of rando small passive cleanse the Scrapper gets. Make sure you notice what immobilization turns into. The Scrapper also routinely cycles these no-animation small condi clears, so he can still cleanse and convert condis into boons during a CC lock up. The Scrapper is the only archetype that has a kit capable of dealing with such heavy condi burst/attrition/CC stun locking. Other archetypes will generally escape/survive the first round of the mantra burst, but once they've blown a full list of utilities to do so, they'll have nothing left for round 2 when the mantras come off their small CDs. This Condi Mantra Mirage is simply pumping out way too much offensive pressure, and it isn't "too much pressure for how much defense it has" no, it is too much offensive pressure period, regardless of how anyone views its level of defensive mechanisms, which is significant because it is Mirage based.

Important to note that I don't want to start a Mesmer hate bandwagon. This is just honest feedback after having an elongated 1v1 session vs. this build archetype.

I personally feel that the sole problem here is Mantra of Distraction.

Before power creep came, Mantra of Distraction was never really that big of an issue. Sure you could lock someone up with it, but before power creep, a person could actually survive that lock up. Now after power creep, a Mantra stun lock = you die immediately, especially if it's a team fight or you're getting plused on. This is a good example of how certain skills greatly scale up or down in usefulness depending on the power creep level. Other good examples are things like Litany Of Wrath, which has become a godly heal skill after the power creep. Or Heralds healing when getting hit, which is an amazing heal skill while in a power based meta that has such power creep.

To put this into an alternative perspective, for those who maybe aren't seeing why the mantras might need a rework on this instant ranged casting, let's imagine if some of the other classes were to be given some instant cast skills that laid down heavy CC:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

@bravan.3876 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down, it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that (but as Warrior i would hate that trade off tbh).
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you also need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except the instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

Trevor said: My good stronk bro, you are trying to shove over the focus to the small immob effect on CI, when literally no one is even complaining about that lol. I've said nothing about it, and the title of the thread is: "Nerf the Mirage Daze spam" lol. You are repeating stating that "Nothing makes sense to you" and I was wondering that perhaps that may be because you are not actually participating in the actual topic of the discussion, which is people discussing the daze spam on Mantra Of Distraction lol.

@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:

Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse
on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.
ect.. ect..

At any rate, it's good to see Mirage back into the fray, but that Mantra of Distraction needs attention. It's the main culprit of the problem here, due to how it has little to no counter play options against it.

You compare a single utility skill with a single utiltiy skill + major grandmaster trait. Doesn't make sense. You have to give Mantra of Distraction the immobilize into the skill itself to make it the same in terms of balance. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down cc like a knock down, it is only a daze, you can dodge every follow up. That is why Mantra can be instant but a hard cc like knock down should never be instant. The problem you build up here is giving an instant lock down. This only is the case with the trait CI which turns Mantra into an instant lock down skill. Means nerf CI and not Mantra. Also you need to remove the power and condi dmg, the stunbreak and the teleport if you want it to be a range instant daze equal to Mantra.
Interclass comparisions don't always make sense. There is a reason current Warrior specs neither have a Mantra of Distraction nor stealth or teleports. The same reason a Chrono cannot dodge while hard cced. But ok take away the dmg, the dmg absorbtion, the unblockable ability, the stability and make it an instant aoe daze. Would not even mind that (but as Warrior i would hate that trade off tbh).
Same as for No. 2. This interclass comparision doesn't make sense. This one also is passive not active. Completely senseless comparision.
Same as for Warrior some interclass comparisions just don't make sense, Thief has completely different class mechanic and strengths than mesmer. It is not supposed to have a comparable interrupt build like mesmer, a class that highly depends on combine instand skills with no instant skills for combos. Also the thief utility near to Mantra of Distraction (what makes a bit more sense to compare) has the Power Block trait included into the skill already and can be used almost as often as Mantra of Distraction (for that it is only single target and less range).
Mantra has only 2 not 3 ammo charges. The torchskill includes a lock down not only a daze. You again describe a problem we only get when using Mantra +Ci and not Mantra alone or with only Power Block. To make it into something you could compare to mantra you also need to delete everything else this skill has to offer except the instant daze.

Your problem is the CI trait and not Mantra of Distraction. I find it hard to argue with ppl don't even know what they talk about and comparing apples with oranges, without getting angry when thinking about that these are most likely the ppl Anet maybe listen to in the end...

And as an advice because you seems to not know about that, let me copy pasta my list of counterplay to Mantra (not CI, only Mantra):

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.L2p issue 1000%. I hope that will help you.

lol that's a strong strawman technique right there.

Let me go ahead and clear up the bogus misdirection you've created on my comments:

I understand and meant everything that I said. I believe the problem lies only within the core mechanics of Mantra of Distraction, and how it has scaled in utility alongside of the power creep. What I don't understand is how a person could even feasibly argue that this build is not using "lock down" techniques, lol. I actually laughed out loud for real when I read that you had said that. As far as nerfing CI, I believe it would be one way to nerf Mantra of Distraction, but it would be aiming a bit out of the court in terms of where the problem really is at, which is an on demand instant cast ranged CC that has absolutely no tells for counter play. In higher tiers of play, instant cast interrupts are AMAZINGLY powerful. More skilled players who wield such mechanics are able to interrupt heal skills almost every time, or some otherwise crucial skill that the opponent must be able to use or he will surely lose the match up.

Don't worry boys, I'm not asking for Mirage to be nerfed into the ground here. I'm simply pointing out that as we see more power creep, we will also see how chain CCs become more powerful. With the current state of balance, a Mirage with Mantra of Distraction could follow 1 Herald, and with only those 2 dazes if they are well placed, the Mirage could allow the Herald to repeatedly get 6s kills or less throughout the entire match. Those 2 dazes alone during an assist are over powered in terms of utility granted, and that is because the Mirage doesn't need to chase you in melee to use it, he doesn't need to rear his arm back and throw an F1 spear of justice like a DH, displaying animations that can be dodged, he doesn't fumble a Ranger LB #4 due to anti projectile bubbles. Nope, he simply takes a target, carefully watches the opponent status bar, and hits when the time is right. And it will hit.

Ok stay bad then and think Mantra of Distraction has no counterplay when i just mentioned tons. It is even one of the utilties with the most counterplay. Only CI creates the instant lock down not Mantra alone (Mantra alone is not a lock down, you can dodge every follow up). If you don't even get that simple difference it is pointless to argue. I know i am not the first person get the epiphany that talking to you is somehow pointless most of the time. I don't care if all classes get nerfed into the ground but i hate when classes get dumbed down because some random ppl have no clue how the game or the class works or are simply bad and waste more time in forums claiming wrong stuff, compare apples with oranges instead just l2p. All your examples are pointless, completely senseless and you don't even get what causes unbalance and low skillfloor/ceilling gameplay on mesmer atm and i explained very well why. Feels like you didn't understand anything i said, sry i have no dictionary "me - low gameknowledge player" that could help me translate what i said into something your mind can deal with.

My good stronk bro, you are trying to shove over the focus to the small immob effect on CI, when literally no one is even complaining about that lol. I've said nothing about it, and the title of the thread is: "Nerf the Mirage Daze spam" lol. You are repeating stating that "Nothing makes sense to you" and I was wondering that perhaps that may be because you are not actually participating in the actual topic of the discussion, which is people discussing the daze spam on Mantra Of Distraction lol.

You mean the OP who is complaining about getting stunned and need to stunbreak permanently? Can't move for 10 secs even after using stunbreak? Yes he has just as much clue about what he is complaining about as you. Same lvl of game and class knowledge. Rofl. Even though he doesn't know what he is even complaining about you clearly can adapt that he is talking about Ci build, that is the only build includes a lock down he calls "stun" and "can't move after stunbreak".

Your whole post i quoted literally complained about CI not Mantra of Distraction but you don't even get that these are 2 different things. You make examples to vote for nerfs don't make sense at all. It is actually cringy how wrong you are. The "small immob effect" is exactly what everyone cries about and that with good reasons. I already explained why. Only with CI trait the Mantra becomes an instant lock down what should not exist. Mantra alone is not a lock down and for that can be instant. But CI is so rewarding that you don't even need to look for big skills to interrupt, you can just random interrupt some autoattacks and done. That kills most of the counterplay you have vs Mantra of Distraction alone, because you will never use any cds to cover autoattacks to not get interrupted. And every cover skill cd get outrun when you need to cover everything you do because otherwise you are locked down to death. But i think i can tell you the facts 100 times and you still will not understand.

You never saw a Mantra of Distraction or Mirage daze complain thread in this forum (not even back then when it had a stun from Confounding Suggestion included, that was op btw for the same reasons CI+Mantra is op), these threads coming up now with the use of CI as Metabuild. It is clearly to put into this context, even though the op doesn't even know what he is actually complaining about and use completely wrong terms.

Seems like you just try to use the opportunity to get something nerfed you have no clue how to counter, but that is a l2p issue on your side. I mentioned you 10 ways how to counter Mantra of Distraction itself. Take them or stay helpless for no reason. Can't say more than this.

End of story! Bye!

Psycoprophet.8107 · July 10, 2019

Nerf mesmer

Buff ele :)

Trevor Boyer.6524 · July 10, 2019

@"bravan.3876" What is wrong with you? Anyone who read that quote could see that 90% of the post is discussing the strength of specifically mantra instant casting. The only time it mentions CI immob is when it is thoroughly covering what happens during the full burst effect. But again, what I am calling out in particular about this build, is the strength behind mantra instant cast instant hitting. 90% of that post, is reiterating in different ways, that mantra instant casting is where I believe the problem is.

What you did is you inserted your own interpretation into my statement, which is ridiculous on many fundamental levels. If you want to make your own statement, make your own statement. Don't try to strawman and parasitically convert the body of someone else's statement into a way to support your statement. That's just weird that anyone would take the time to do that, instead of just make their own statement.

Let me give an example of how this is supposed to work:

I say: "I believe the problem is within the core mechanics of mantra instant casting instant striking."
You say: "I disagree, I believe the problem is the immob on CI."
We have both stated opinions, actual statements from both of us. Now we can explain ourselves. "Here is why I feel this way, ect ect." "Ok I see where you're coming from but did you ever notice this? Let me explain why I have this different opinion." This is productive discussion.

Here is what you don't do:

I say: "I believe the problem is within the core mechanics of mantra instant casting instant striking."
You fire back with: "You're complaining about CI immob but your too ignorant to understand that MoD and CI are two different things. You're wrong in everything you said."
^ This is like a super combo of (A) Assumption, (B) Discrediting, © Strawmanning. When you do this, people cannot have a productive or clear conversation with you at all. Because we aren't even talking about the same thing anymore because you are misrepresenting the original point of what the person said and what they meant by it to begin with. In fact you haven't actually made your own statement on the matter at all, you're just attacking someone and telling them they are wrong. Now the person who made the actual statement must spend their time explaining their statement so they can continue in the discussion and have people understand that what they said was what they meant, because unfortunately these kinds of cheap tactics actually work amongst the masses.

I've said this many times in this forum, I don't care if you disagree with me and tell me I am wrong, that's great. But don't take my statements and turn them into something that they are not. That's amongst the rudest and nastiest things one can do when participating in public forum discussions, whether online or in real life.

If you had a mature bone in your body to go back and reread my first post on all of this, and then you're first response. You'll see that I simply made a very light hearted statement about my 3 hour 1v1 experience vs this build and you fired off at me with nasty response. I never even made firm statements. I kept watching my words and saying things like: "I believe the core of the problem is mantra instat cast instant hit." I was giving honest feedback. I am certain aware of the difference between a mantra utility and the trait selection CI. Then you immediately respond to a well mannered post with nasty discrediting and assumption of intent and the alteration of my clear bigger statement, "That I believe the core of the problem is mantra instat cast instant hit." and begin attempting to alter my statements as if I didn't understand what I was saying and that really what the problem is, is CI. <- Which is not anything like what I said at all.

We can end this now. But just to make things clear: "I believe the core of the problem is mantra instat cast instant hit." And Even after all of this debacle between you and I, is still have that same opinion. None of this was productive and it was a complete waste of time.

Forum users should watch their words more carefully and consider if engaging an argument over assumption, discrediting, and strawmanning will even be useful in the end.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

Ok one last time @"Trevor Boyer.6524" :

Your post our discussion started with, started with the statement that mantras have no counter play. First obviously completely wrong statement. No opinion, just fact. I listed 10 examples of counerplay to Mantra of Distraction. Your statement is only right for Mantra of Pain. All you write later in this comment is based on mantras have no counterplay even tho the only reason Mantra of Distraction has no (or barely any) counterplay in that specific build is because of CI. Mantra of Distraction on its own has plenty of counterplay as i listed.

This goes for your whole post which is (as you agreed yourself) only based on duels vs the one specific build. Condi chaosline interrupt. That is why i say you don't even understand your own post, if missing game/class knowledge causes this or simply a missing ability for logical thinking or no clue how balance should work, whatever i don't know. You just claim or assume that the no counter results from Mantra of Distraction being instant and i explained to you based on facts why the lack of counterplay doesn't come from Mantra itself but only from CI what turns Mantra into an instant lock down. An instant daze is no balance problem and never was. Also OPs complain clearly is based on the CI build and had to be put into that context, no matter that he uses the wrong terms and don't even know what he is rly talking about.

You assuming and other ppl quoting your assumtions and telling you based on facts and logic why they are objectively wrong. That has nothing to do with me rating my opinion over yours. I didn't even list any opinion of mine. What we have is simple wrong statements from your side. There are opinions and there are facts. Get the difference please.

If you say your opinion is that the earth is flat i would explain to you why this is wrong the same way i do with your balance suggestions.

Then you started to "prove" your wrong assumptions with listing 5 examples which are all totally wrong and make no sense at all, what i again explained very logical and detailed. Not opinion just facts.

I also explained logically and detailed why Mantra of Distraction as an interrupt tool needs to be instant otherwise it would be useless. This is nothing about opinion this is simple balance logic.

To go into more detail of your duel post you used to claim that Mnatra of Distraction is the issue (what is objectively wrong):

If you use a stunbreak on a simple daze it is your lack of skill and misplay and not the daze from Manta of Distraction being op. It is also the lack of skill that you still have no clue how to counter Mantra of Distraction even though i mentioned 10 ways as example several times.

What cc burst? Mantra of Distraction itself has no burst included. And every added or follow up burst can be dodged easy because it is only a daze. No need for a stunbreak or a condiremove.

Then you say something finally hit the issue: Mantra of Distraction combined with cc like immob or other lock down mechanics like stun (stun is not available with a manta use anymore so that is irrelevant atm). Yes that is where the problem starts. You even say it yourself without understanding yourself.

Btw just because you obiously don't know that (just like the OP): Stunbreak will not help at all vs an immob lock down. You waste your skill if you use it either on a simple daze or a daze+immob lock down. Means you can replace all stunbreaks you have vs either stabi or invuln or condiclear if you wanna counter the specific chaosline interrupt build.

I ignore your other complains on the condiburst and sustain of a Chaosline Condimesmer, they have nothing to do with Mantra of Distraction.

You have massive problem vs the CI condi build in your duels. Ofc you do, because it is op but also because from what your write you also simply misplay a lot vs it. And when you have the same issues vs a glass power shatter Mesmer using Power Block only with Mantra of Distraciton then it will be only because of you having no clue how to counter Mantra even tho Mantra itself has plenty of counterplay and because of you misplaying by wasting cds from stunbreaks when it is not needed.

Curunen.8729 · July 10, 2019

Here's an alternative:

What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.

I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.

As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.

There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.

Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:Ok one last time @Trevor Boyer.6524 :
To go into more detail of your duel post you used to claim that Mnatra of Distraction is the issue (what is objectively wrong):

Now see this is exactly where our problem in communication lies. You are 100% positive with no room for discussion, that your opinion is correct. But your opinion is simply an opinion in the same way that my opinion is an opinion. You have to respect this if you want respect yourself.

I would tell you that my opinion has no concern for the immob from CI, albeit annoying. My concern is that the frequent chain daze effects, which turns all my skills into a black bar cool down so that I can't use a condi cleanse to begin with or stun breaks for that matter, is where the problem begins and ultimately where it lies.

We can agree to disagree. You don't have to win every argument in every forum that you post in.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:Ok one last time @Trevor Boyer.6524 :
To go into more detail of your duel post you used to claim that Mnatra of Distraction is the issue (what is objectively wrong):

Now see this is exactly where our problem in communication lies. You are 100% positive with no room for discussion, that your opinion is correct. But your opinion is simply an opinion in the same way that my opinion is an opinion. You have to respect this if you want respect yourself.

I would tell you that my opinion has no concern for the immob from CI, albeit annoying. My concern is that the frequent chain daze effects, which turns all my skills into a black bar cool down so that I can't use a condi cleanse to begin with or stun breaks for that matter, is where the problem begins and ultimately where it lies.

We can agree to disagree. You don't have to win every argument in every forum that you post in.

I like how you just ignore 99% of my post and only quote the conclusion i made over 20-30 sentences based on facts and logic. But that is how propaganda works.

Again already one mistake in this short last post of yours. You always can use a stunbreak when dazed, you can use all instant skills while dazed. It just would be a waste to do it for a simple daze. And why you want to use a condi clear when you are only dazed? The need of a condi clear is only relevant when you want to remove the immob. Mantra of Distraction doesn't immob you. Mantra of Distraction is not a lock down. Just dodge what comes with it or right after it. But all your complains in your duel post are based on that clearly wrong statement, that MoD has no counterplay and that the no counterplay comes from it being instant. You don't even get that all your complains only fit for the one build you dueled against, only for an interrupt build with CI or equal instant lock down.Sorry but no, you are so objectively wrong that i don't even agree to disagree here. This is not about opinions it is about stating factual wrong things. Then building up 5 completely wrong examples and trying to prove wrong statements with wrong statement.

Continue to use your stunbreak when you are dazed (or will you also still claim that daze prevents you from stunbreaking any further? It is like stubborn holding your opinion that the earth is flat). You don't wanna learn that Mantra of Distractions has at least 10 ways of counterplays i already mentioned, ok it is up to you to not improve. I have the strong feeling that you don't want to improve, you just want to get stuff nerfed you struggle with, and when ppl tell you what mistakes you made in that duels (what you tell in your duel post) you don't even listen. Better use your time in this forum for some more propaganda in hope to get skillbased things dumbed down and nerfed for no reason so you don't need to face anything requires a skill to play and play against. Live your happy casual life then. Have a nice day.

@Curunen.8729 said:Here's an alternative:
What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.
I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.
As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.
There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.
Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.

Maybe not even a bad idea but tbh i can't overlook all the consequences from that right now. But it is clearly an idea Anet should check. Still it doesn't solve the problem that instant lock downs should not exist in general because it will never be balanced or skillful to use. Tools meant to be for an viable interrupt build need to be instant otherwise they would be useless for an reactive interrupt playstyle aiming for specific skills. Means all interupt traits need to be balanced around these interrupt tools and not the other way around. The immob on CI needs to go in any case. Any Icd on it would lower the problem but not solve it because in the current state of power creep (condi burst) one random interrupt lock down on an autoattack is almost enough to win the fight or in conquest teamfights to get the target killed.

Sampson.2403 · July 10, 2019

Human resources chaotically interrupted my day today while i was running around in a bumblee bee suit trying to sit on all of the women in the office. They told me that's sexual harrassmentment which is a lie because i was just trying to sting them.

Lincolnbeard.1735 · July 10, 2019

@Curunen.8729 said:Here's an alternative:
What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.
I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.
As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.
There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.
Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.

You mean nerf all professions instead of just mesmer?! Are you mad?!

@bravan.3876 Yes, rupts aren't op at all but I maintain my pov that interrupts in this game are kind of neglectful, they don't really impact the gameplay. Taking gw1 as an example again, dshoting word of healing for example could be a death sentence for the Monk and several team members. In gw2 if you interrupt something, well, no problem at all, plenty of safety nets out there.

Also you're trying to argue with someone that is on an anti-mesmer crusade since pof came out.

praqtos.9035 · July 10, 2019

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:Here's an alternative:
What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.
I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.
As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.
There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.
Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.

You mean nerf all professions instead of just mesmer?! Are you mad?!

@"bravan.3876" Yes, rupts aren't op at all but I maintain my pov that interrupts in this game are kind of neglectful, they don't really impact the gameplay. Taking gw1 as an example again, dshoting word of healing for example could be a death sentence for the Monk and several team members. In gw2 if you interrupt something, well, no problem at all, plenty of safety nets out there.

Also you're trying to argue with someone that is on an anti-mesmer crusade since pof came out."Me and my knowledable community against the mesmers but dont you dare to touch my main"

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:

Also you're trying to argue with someone that is on an anti-mesmer crusade since pof came out.

Yes i got that, that is why i stopped for now before i get angry you know^^

Curunen.8729 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:Here's an alternative:
What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.
I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.
As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.
There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.
Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.

Maybe not even a bad idea but tbh i can't overlook all the consequences from that right now. But it is clearly an idea Anet should check. Still it doesn't solve the problem that instant lock downs should not exist in general because it will never be balanced or skillful to use. Tools meant to be for an viable interrupt build need to be instant otherwise they would be useless for an reactive interrupt playstyle aiming for specific skills. Means all interupt traits need to be balanced around these interrupt tools and not the other way around. The immob on CI needs to go in any case. Any Icd on it would lower the problem but not solve it because in the current state of power creep (condi burst) one random interrupt lock down on an autoattack is almost enough to win the fight or in conquest teamfights to get the target killed.

Yeah there's a lot of skills and interactions to look over.

Maybe this should also tie in with other things such as potentially making fear/taunt/immobilise effects instead of conditions - as they take control away from the character - and leave conditions as softer cc and DoTs.

In any case I agree with pretty much everything you are saying regarding MoD - which on it's own should be instant given the many sub 1 second key skills to be interrupted in the game, and on it's own isn't spammable so missing a cast is pretty wasteful. If someone's healing and the player hits a MoD interrupt that's good to be rewarded for preventing the skill use - but as you say they can still dodge. Requires good timing for the player to hit those interrupts.

The silly stuff has always been CI since they combined the two older traits and added immobilise - and on things like random chaos storm daze procs if they interrupt... No skill in that, just luck.

But on the other hand if stunbreak could clear immobilise (and the daze), maybe it wouldn't be such an issue.

In any case as someone who has no vested interest in CI, MoD or Pistol for that matter, I'm kind of happy to watch from the sidelines and see what they do. More interested in Anet pulling their finger out and redesigning Elusive Mind.

Curunen.8729 · July 10, 2019

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:Here's an alternative:
What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.
I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.
As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.
There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.
Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.

You mean nerf all professions instead of just mesmer?! Are you mad?!

@bravan.3876 Yes, rupts aren't op at all but I maintain my pov that interrupts in this game are kind of neglectful, they don't really impact the gameplay. Taking gw1 as an example again, dshoting word of healing for example could be a death sentence for the Monk and several team members. In gw2 if you interrupt something, well, no problem at all, plenty of safety nets out there.

Also you're trying to argue with someone that is on an anti-mesmer crusade since pof came out.

This is a very good point - interrupts in general can have negligible impact given how many defensive safety nets exist to handle getting a skill interrupted.

I'm not sure where they should go with the gameplay, but denial/cc should be a valid form of building - but ideally with sacrifice of damage (power or condi) - so either you have massive damage but unable to heavily cc/lock an opponent, or you have heavy cc but reduced burst potential.

But damage is so high in this game at the moment, nothing significant needs to be sacrificed while being able to take any amount of defensive stuff, cc or whatever - on all classes.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Curunen.8729 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:Here's an alternative:
What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.
I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.
As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.
There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.
Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.

Maybe not even a bad idea but tbh i can't overlook all the consequences from that right now. But it is clearly an idea Anet should check. Still it doesn't solve the problem that instant lock downs should not exist in general because it will never be balanced or skillful to use. Tools meant to be for an viable interrupt build need to be instant otherwise they would be useless for an reactive interrupt playstyle aiming for specific skills. Means all interupt traits need to be balanced around these interrupt tools and not the other way around. The immob on CI needs to go in any case. Any Icd on it would lower the problem but not solve it because in the current state of power creep (condi burst) one random interrupt lock down on an autoattack is almost enough to win the fight or in conquest teamfights to get the target killed.

Yeah there's a lot of skills and interactions to look over.

Maybe this should also tie in with other things such as potentially making fear/taunt/immobilise effects instead of conditions - as they take control away from the character - and leave conditions as softer cc and DoTs.

In any case I agree with pretty much everything you are saying regarding MoD - which on it's own should be instant given the many sub 1 second key skills to be interrupted in the game, and on it's own isn't spammable so missing a cast is pretty wasteful. If someone's healing and the player hits a MoD interrupt that's good to be rewarded for preventing the skill use - but as you say they can still dodge. Requires good timing for the player to hit those interrupts.

The silly stuff has always been CI since they combined the two older traits and added immobilise - and on things like random chaos storm daze procs if they interrupt... No skill in that, just luck.

But on the other hand if stunbreak could clear immobilise (and the daze), maybe it wouldn't be such an issue.

In any case as someone who has no vested interest in CI, MoD or Pistol for that matter, I'm kind of happy to watch from the sidelines and see what they do. More interested in Anet pulling their finger out and redesigning Elusive Mind.

Maybe make Immob a hybrid like Fear? Fear can be cleared by condiremove or stunbreak. Immob is just as strong as Fear or Taunt in its cc nature, means it would even fit into that category and no need to rework every stunbreak then.

viquing.8254 · July 10, 2019

I will just point out the exageration :

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:I'm personally hoping the uptick in Power Mesmer over Condition Mesmers between the May Balance Patch and now resulted in Mantra of Distraction taking a hit coincidentally hitting the new CI Condi Mirages that have shown up the past couple of weeks. Condition Mirage is the only class I have ever seen in a game repeatedly get more powerful as it gets nerfed because it awakens people to more broken stuff in the kit that was being overlooked.
Right now the Mantra Ammo Counts have a 24 second cooldown. If you spam and double cast the mantra rather than waiting on the ammo the cooldown for recharging the mantra is only 12 seconds to get both charges back, which also shaves 30s off of the Diversion the F3 Daze. So not only are you
not
punished for using it as frequently as possible rather than saving it and waiting on the ammo, you're actually rewarded with more frequent dazes and cooldown reduction on Diversion if you use it off cooldown.
That seems backwards to me. Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge. So if you're patient, if you time your interrupts better, you get more value out of them. But if you want to interrupt twice very frequently you have to pay for it with a higher cooldown to use interrupts again. And if face a mesmer and you see the two 2 mantra dazes done back to back you know they aren't going to be able to do so again for some time.
Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.

Also I get the whole randomness is part of the flavor for Chaos themed skills, but randomly pulsing daze on Chaos Storm (Aegis too for that matter) is just too much high value randomness that this game was always trying to get away from.After 1v1ing this guy on his Mantra Condi Mirage for like 3 hours the other day, I had come to the conclusion that the bolded pretty much is where the problem is here. These mantra skills have no counter play. They should become projectiles that are able to be sighted and dodge rolled, or at the least put a 1/4ths cast animation on them.Counter play =1) brain the lock :
Cancel cast.
Cast under Aegis, stab.
Don't spam skills.

2) Even if the lock trigger :

condi clear.
use temporisation skills : block, teleport, invul.

I could not counter play against it even on a Bunker Druid that has access to two full bar cycling condi cleanses, an additional 4 condi cleanse on heal, and additional 2 condi cleanse on Lightning Reflexes, 4 ever cycling stun breaks, 10 stacks of stab with 16s duration off Strength of the Pack, stealth disengage resets, and various support skills from pet swapping. Any of you who are accustomed to side noding vs. my Druid should know that it is no easy 1v1 kill, but I couldn't do anything to this Mirage in a 1v1 situation.Yes because it's basically a tank builds vs a tank build. that said he shouldn't do much to you as well.The reason why I could not counter play is because the CC burst is too overwhelming in terms of it being instant use no-animation non projectile ranged, so it just immediately hits with no tells.Wait what ? Which CC burst ??The only CC burst I can think is the pistol stunt/phantasm combo who have nothing to do with lock traits. Which is far to be instant btw.the actual damage coming from the Condi Mirage.Actual damage who is 80% projectile if we talk about the mirage CI and who isn't the best pressure a mesmer can do.And this isn't even to mention the insane amount of burst that is actually coming off this build.Again I didn't know this build have burst.death breakdown. It was something like 47k bleeding, and around 4k to 8k on other condi ticks.1) Death breakdown isn't reliable at all.2) First damage bleed mean you hit too much pistol phantam.Dont take it bad but if you are eating that much phantasm attacks, chance are hudge you will die faster versus any real burst spec.
ludicrous amount of CC in addition to its condi.Ludicrous = 5.4 of them have a CC duration of 1 to 1,25 sec on which you can easily evade if no rupt. One have a 2.5 sec duration.Condi output = 80% projectile.
I personally feel that the sole problem here is Mantra of Distraction. Before power creep came, Mantra of Distraction was never really that big of an issue.Again you cite the burst (probably the pistol sutnt + pistol phantasm + scepter 3) who have nothing to do with MoD or CI.
Imagine if Judge's Intervention was given a 2s knockdown.Imagine if gard have an instant AOE bump.
What if Spellbreaker Full Counter had no animation at all, and was an instant cast skill that could be used at the same time the Spellbreaker was taking other actions?What if Full counter is AOE on a very short CD while giving war some Fx procs and being unblocable. Also what if full counter proc on clones auto (ho wait.).
What if One Wolf Pack on a Soulbeast additionally laid down a 1/2 second daze on each additional strike from the One Wolf Pack?What if SlB haven't 3 nice hard CC during his 5 sec mega-burst ?
Headshot on a Thief was made no animation no cast time, and can be used at any time while the Thief is taking other actions.What if most thief attack do damage while evading ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse on Scourge was made a 3 ammo skill and turned into a no-animation no cast time skill.What if scourge can't insta fear and haven't 2 or 3 depend of builds nice hard CC aoe while doing damage ?
ect.. ect..Yeah etc etc, we can compare if you want, fact are that mesmers aren't more than 15% top 50 for good reasons.

Pay attention because there is many contradictions in your post.

@praqtos.9035 said:Pistol 5 mean not to interrupt but stunlock .. hence why it has 2.5s STUN (I dont get why they gave it 0.5s more stun,its felt long enough anyway, unless they badly want mesmers to use it or to nerf it to hell with next patch).Good question, like why did they give 2 clones production to scepter and staff...
@bravan.3876 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:@bravan.3876
The way he says he interrupted "something" already shows where the problem lies. Ppl use pistol 5 to stun lock for the pistol phantams and other skills to hit, not to interrupt specific skills on purpose. Main reason why you still get random interrupts without going for them on purpose is what i said about your opponent is not able to cover everyhting he does, in particular will not use cover skills to cover autoattacks. Means you often will get an interrupt on autoattacks or other skills wihtout even going for itPistol 5 mean not to interrupt but stunlock .. hence why it has 2.5s STUN (I dont get why they gave it 0.5s more stun... unless they badly want to use it or to nerf it to hell with next patch )Interrupt problem lies only within chaos interruption as your opponent immobed for 2-3s.Also interrupt something for CI is a legit thing as you want this boons badly and want your grandmaster trait to give you something and not to be a dead weight, its just shouldnt have immobilize so they can... just dodge 4head :joy:

Yes give them boons but onyl defensive boons. The mighstacking is another op thing doesn't fit with that defensive traitline. I think chill instead immob would still be too strong. Imagine being perma chilled...

On other hand, it's very easy to other meta build to get 15+ power stacks so maybe start by this. I mean 5 power stack on rupt is nothing even if getting 10+ while you face class who stack 15+ in easy rotation.And under chill the target can still evade.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:Ok one last time @Trevor Boyer.6524 :
To go into more detail of your duel post you used to claim that Mnatra of Distraction is the issue (what is objectively wrong):

Now see this is exactly where our problem in communication lies. You are 100% positive with no room for discussion, that your opinion is correct. But your opinion is simply an opinion in the same way that my opinion is an opinion. You have to respect this if you want respect yourself.

I would tell you that my opinion has no concern for the immob from CI, albeit annoying. My concern is that the frequent chain daze effects, which turns all my skills into a black bar cool down so that I can't use a condi cleanse to begin with or stun breaks for that matter, is where the problem begins and ultimately where it lies.

We can agree to disagree. You don't have to win every argument in every forum that you post in.

I like how you just ignore 99% of my post and only quote the conclusion i made over 20-30 sentences based on facts and logic. But that is how propaganda works.

Again already one mistake in this short last post of yours. You always can use a stunbreak when dazed, you can use all instant skills while dazed.

Why would I not ignore 99% of a narcissistic "I'm right and you're wrong" rant?

And you're wrong about always being able to use stun breaks. Lately the daze train will lock up my entire utility bar and all weapon skills. I don't know if this is a bug but it is happening. During a match earlier today, there were two Mantra Mirages in the match against me, and I almost recorded the match specifically to example how the daze is locking up even instant use skills. These two skills should not be being locked up during a Daze: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22 and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Reflexes but for whatever reason it is happening and it seems to be happening often.

I'll try to get a good recording of it next time I'm in-game, as I'm sure right now you are 100% sure that you are correct and I am wrong. Brace yourself for it though, because I have caught and posted far stranger bugs than this, in this forum.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@bravan.3876 said:Ok one last time @Trevor Boyer.6524 :
To go into more detail of your duel post you used to claim that Mnatra of Distraction is the issue (what is objectively wrong):

Now see this is exactly where our problem in communication lies. You are 100% positive with no room for discussion, that your opinion is correct. But your opinion is simply an opinion in the same way that my opinion is an opinion. You have to respect this if you want respect yourself.

I would tell you that my opinion has no concern for the immob from CI, albeit annoying. My concern is that the frequent chain daze effects, which turns all my skills into a black bar cool down so that I can't use a condi cleanse to begin with or stun breaks for that matter, is where the problem begins and ultimately where it lies.

We can agree to disagree. You don't have to win every argument in every forum that you post in.

I like how you just ignore 99% of my post and only quote the conclusion i made over 20-30 sentences based on facts and logic. But that is how propaganda works.

Again already one mistake in this short last post of yours. You always can use a stunbreak when dazed, you can use all instant skills while dazed.

Why would I not ignore 99% of a narcissistic "I'm right and you're wrong" rant?

And you're wrong about always being able to use stun breaks. Lately the daze train will lock up my entire utility bar and all weapon skills. I don't know if this is a bug but it is happening. During a match earlier today, there were two Mantra Mirages in the match against me, and I almost recorded the match specifically to example how the daze is locking up even instant use skills. These two skills should not be being locked up during a Daze:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22

and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Reflexes

but for whatever reason it is happening and it seems to be happening often.

I'll try to get a good recording of it next time I'm in-game, as I'm sure right now you are 100% sure that you are correct and I am wrong. Brace yourself for it though, because I have caught and posted far stranger bugs than this, in this forum.

Since when a bug is a valid balance argument? You ignore my whole post for the sake of not admitting to facts and logic. That is fine, you are struggling ingame not me. Ignore every advice i gave you for the sake of being right and get the nerfs you want, no matter that they are stupid.

Curunen.8729 · July 10, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:Here's an alternative:
What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.
I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.
As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.
There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.
Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.

Maybe not even a bad idea but tbh i can't overlook all the consequences from that right now. But it is clearly an idea Anet should check. Still it doesn't solve the problem that instant lock downs should not exist in general because it will never be balanced or skillful to use. Tools meant to be for an viable interrupt build need to be instant otherwise they would be useless for an reactive interrupt playstyle aiming for specific skills. Means all interupt traits need to be balanced around these interrupt tools and not the other way around. The immob on CI needs to go in any case. Any Icd on it would lower the problem but not solve it because in the current state of power creep (condi burst) one random interrupt lock down on an autoattack is almost enough to win the fight or in conquest teamfights to get the target killed.

Yeah there's a lot of skills and interactions to look over.

Maybe this should also tie in with other things such as potentially making fear/taunt/immobilise effects instead of conditions - as they take control away from the character - and leave conditions as softer cc and DoTs.

In any case I agree with pretty much everything you are saying regarding MoD - which on it's own should be instant given the many sub 1 second key skills to be interrupted in the game, and on it's own isn't spammable so missing a cast is pretty wasteful. If someone's healing and the player hits a MoD interrupt that's good to be rewarded for preventing the skill use - but as you say they can still dodge. Requires good timing for the player to hit those interrupts.

The silly stuff has always been CI since they combined the two older traits and added immobilise - and on things like random chaos storm daze procs if they interrupt... No skill in that, just luck.

But on the other hand if stunbreak could clear immobilise (and the daze), maybe it wouldn't be such an issue.

In any case as someone who has no vested interest in CI, MoD or Pistol for that matter, I'm kind of happy to watch from the sidelines and see what they do. More interested in Anet pulling their finger out and redesigning Elusive Mind.

Maybe make Immob a hybrid like Fear? Fear can be cleared by condiremove or stunbreak. Immob is just as strong as Fear or Taunt in its cc nature, means it would even fit into that category and no need to rework every stunbreak then.

Heh, that's what I meant/was saying, apologies if it wasn't expressed clearly. :) Yeah definitely think changing immobilise to also be removed by stunbreak as well as condi cleanse, would make it so that all forms of harder cc are then removable by stunbreak - so anything preventing movement, freedom of skill choice or normal dodge use.

It certainly seems reasonable to consider fear/taunt/immobilse all together when building counters.

bravan.3876 · July 10, 2019

@Curunen.8729 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:Here's an alternative:
What if stunbreak also removed immobilise? Just like how it breaks fear/taunt which are also conditions.
I haven't considered all the consequences but off the top of my head think that could solve a lot of the problem, not just with CI but with building in general to counter condi and cc - homogenise stunbreak to remove fear, taunt and immobilise.
As a related but off topic side note, this would also fix problems like Sand through Glass instantly breaking the mirror when immobilised rendering half the skill useless. Here the stunbreak would remove the immobilise and always move the player away from the mirror position.
There must be other examples in this way, but am on mobile so can't think or type more stuff.
Softer cc like chill/cripple are fine to be excluded and require condi cleanse.