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Guardian Balance Changes Discussion


Derm.4932

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

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@Derm.4932 said:

GuardianThe Retribution trait in the Radiance line had a lot of power and was crowding out other options. We're transferring this power over to the Zeal line, along with a few other trait reworks to make that type of damage bonus more reliable.

Did I miss the replacement trait for Retribution in the Radiance line? I am not sure how a removing the only viable Power DPS trait in that tier 'opens more options'. Will it swap with a current Zeal trait?

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@Hagion.1086 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

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@Svaalls.4328 said:

GuardianThe Retribution trait in the Radiance line had a lot of power and was crowding out other options. We're transferring this power over to the Zeal line, along with a few other trait reworks to make that type of damage bonus more reliable.

Did I miss the replacement trait for Retribution in the Radiance line? I am not sure how a removing the only viable Power DPS trait in that tier 'opens more options'. Will it swap with a current Zeal trait?

Retribution would still provide 10% damage. The 250 ferocity is removed from that trait. 150 ferocity is now added to radiance grand master minor. So radiance over all lost 100 ferocity. Zeal gain 5% damage, also as grand master minor. Also. Symbols will deal about 17-18% more damage. Damage in PvE should be slightly higher. SPvP if you use zeal/radiance/valor damage should be a around 10-15% higher.

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I like that they splitted the potency a bit and improvements on zeals is nice too.For competitive modes it is more an area control balance patch. For PvE it's a dmg buff.DH got atleast something and FB didn't get nerfed.The spirit weapon trait should be reworked though although the buff is nice.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

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@Derm.4932 said:

Guardian

Spear of Light: This skill now scales damage dynamically based on distance rather than using distance thresholds.Leap of Faith: This skill now heals you for each foe hit in addition to its previous effects.
Still too easy to interrupt, not to mention LoF is mostly used as a tool to get out, not push-in.
Deflecting Shot: This skill no longer deals bonus damage if a missile is reflected. Increased base damage by 80%.
Not bad
Symbol of Energy: Increased projectile speed by 25%.
Cool? Symbols suck, can we please change the mechanics behind them?(Talking spvp/wvw mostly)
Symbolic Avenger: This trait has been reworked. It now increases the guardian's damage by 2% stacking (max 5 stacks) for 15 seconds whenever a symbol hits a foe.
This is actually a decent nerf, instead of receiving an immediate dmg increase with some power conversion, you may only get a few stacks. This traitline(zeal) was never utilized anyway, thanks for the nerf.
Symbolic Power: Increased the symbol damage from 10% to 30%. This trait no longer has a chance to inflict burning. Instead it causes symbols to charge your Justice passive effect twice as fast.
Good change
Symbol of Punishment: Lowered the damage of extra strikes by 25% in PvE.
Who cares about targets that are brain-dead and never move out of your symbols?
Symbolic Exposure: This trait now increases damage to vulnerable foes by 5% in addition to its previous effects.
Good change
Protective Reviver: Fixed a bug that caused this trait to not increase revive speed.Zealous Blade: This trait no longer heals when combined with a light field or grants 10% bonus damage when wielding a greatsword. Instead it grants +120 power plus an additional +120 power while wielding a greatsword in addition to reducing greatsword skill recharge by 20%.
So...why is this one of the few traits that only gets a cd reduction with power while say Warriors get both AND might on crit? Give me something interactive! Also, GS needs a rework, I've already went over my reasons but outside of WW(Which needs its projectiles removed and dmg meshed with just the physical aspect), the rest need a rework.
Eternal Armory: Increased burning stacks from 1 to 2.
No one uses spirit weapons in spvp, cool
Retribution: This trait no longer grants bonus ferocity.
Oh awesome, another nerf to the somewhat only viable dmg trait-line while Guardians were already lacking BEFORE the nerfs in terms of dmg. Well done.
Radiant Power: This trait now grants +150 ferocity.
WHY move this? I don't get the idea behind this change?
Pure of Sight: This trait now scales dynamically based on distance from the target. Scaling has been adjusted from 5% to 15%.
Not enough for any self-respecting DH to consider playing it again
Spear of Justice: This skill has been updated so the tether aspect doesn't fail against world bosses as frequently.

Forgive me for all the negative comments but holy hell these are bad. Once again, let's focus on a mechanic that requires both caster and enemy to stand-in for lengthy periods of time for ANY benefit(symbols) in a game where mobility is HUGE! Great mechanic. Come on guys.

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@TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

@Ragnarox.9601 said:no buffs to spirit weapons and sigils? me disappointed. Again, they have no clue about balancing and real problems of guardians.

Sword of justice were buff through trait, inflicting 2 stacks of burning, so from 4 to 8 stacks.For other spirit weapons, nothing.

Eternal Armory
: Increased burning stacks from 1 to 2
should improve all spirit weapons

Wich is funny cause SoJ is basically trap on cast that can melt a target XD, bow needs better scale with healing power and condi removal besides blasting it’s light field.

Shield needs better uptime

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@"Hagion.1086" said:Plz ANET don't nerf GS Heal and toughness converted in power of symbolic avenger! ???

I think it was done because of the change to the minor trait "Symbolic Power: Increased the symbol damage from 10% to 30%." As a result, they turned SA into a trait that scales with the number of enemies. Might be a bit weak, especially as GM trait, but a 10% buff for up to 15 sec - with no gear requirements - seems pretty good.

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After testing:

SPvP Zeal/radiance/valor, the damage increase is too small to be noticeable. The loss of all healing from GS is definitely noticeable, in a build that suffers in the sustainability dept. they removed the heal per Hit not only blasting light fields.

There are no other possible new combinations using zeal or SoJ in PvP.

PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

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@otto.5684 said:PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

Hm, according to my testing Virtues is completely superceded by Zeal for all condi builds.

Zeal/Radiance/FB is about 3-5k DPS ahead of Virtues/Radiance/FB, be it cQB, cFB etc.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@otto.5684 said:PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

Hm, according to my testing Virtues is completely superceded by Zeal for all condi builds.

Zeal/Radiance/FB is about 3-5k DPS ahead of Virtues/Radiance/FB, be it cQB, cFB etc.

Interesting. I guess zeal will be the new staple in condi builds.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@otto.5684 said:PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

Hm, according to my testing Virtues is completely superceded by Zeal for all condi builds.

Zeal/Radiance/FB is about 3-5k DPS ahead of Virtues/Radiance/FB, be it cQB, cFB etc.

Did you take into your tests aoe abilities provided by permea wrath?Or is it only about single target damage?If you play wvw, this difference does matter.

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@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

@otto.5684 said:PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

Hm, according to my testing Virtues is completely superceded by Zeal for all condi builds.

Zeal/Radiance/FB is about 3-5k DPS ahead of Virtues/Radiance/FB, be it cQB, cFB etc.

Did you take into your tests aoe abilities provided by permea wrath?Or is it only about single target damage?If you play wvw, this difference does matter.

Speaking of PvE.

The Zeal rotation relies heavily on Symbol uptime and won't be of any use in PvP or WvW.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

DH already outperforms Core DPS by at least 10% on a Golem, and that assumes the Core has Aegis up, otherwise it's a flat 30%. Now, technically, DH has been given a survivability boost over Core by the removal of the GS heal. Again, why? Was DH underplayed? Core too powerful? Id question anyone who agreed with either of those statements.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

DH already outperforms Core DPS by at least 10% on a Golem, and that assumes the Core has Aegis up, otherwise it's a flat 30%. Now, technically, DH has been given a survivability boost over Core by the removal of the GS heal. Again, why? Was DH underplayed? Core too powerful? Id question anyone who agreed with either of those statements.

I won't say it is a suvivability boost to DH, since both used zeal in PvE anyway and both will lose on the sustain. However, it surely is a nerf to zeal/radiance/valor build in sPvP. After doing a bit of testing yesterday, I think the damage is about even before and after the patch in sPvP. Stronger potential but less consistent. The healing was the only source of sustain zeal offered. With it gone, and damage about the same, it is overall nerf in sPvP. The heal on leap of faith does not count cuz it cannot hit shit, especially won't hit a group of enemies.

Overall, condi/hybrid builds got buffs in PvE and better diversity, with zeal in the mix. Everything else is the same. Power builds are viable but cannot compete P2 and beyond. And of course, are not AT viable. It will remain FB only in PvP for.. I guess the next expansion, unless FB gets massively nerfed, which is more likely considering it is over performing and Anet does not fix shit. Just nerf it out of viability.

Unrelated, if core power to ever become PvE viable, Unscathed Contender must be changed from aegis to something else (retaliation makes most sense).

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@otto.5684 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

DH already outperforms Core DPS by at least 10% on a Golem, and that assumes the Core has Aegis up, otherwise it's a flat 30%. Now, technically, DH has been given a survivability boost over Core by the removal of the GS heal. Again, why? Was DH underplayed? Core too powerful? Id question anyone who agreed with either of those statements.

I won't say it is a suvivability boost to DH, since both used zeal in PvE anyway and both will lose on the sustain. However, it surely is a nerf to zeal/radiance/valor build in sPvP. After doing a bit of testing yesterday, I think the damage is about even before and after the patch in sPvP. Stronger potential but less consistent. The healing was the only source of sustain zeal offered. With it gone, and damage about the same, it is overall nerf in sPvP. The heal on leap of faith does not count cuz it cannot hit kitten, especially won't hit a group of enemies.

Overall, condi/hybrid builds got buffs in PvE and better diversity, with zeal in the mix. Everything else is the same. Power builds are viable but cannot compete P2 and beyond. And of course, are not AT viable. It will remain FB only in PvP for.. I guess the next expansion, unless FB gets massively nerfed, which is more likely considering it is over performing and Anet does not fix kitten. Just nerf it out of viability.

Unrelated, if core power to ever become PvE viable, Unscathed Contender must be changed from aegis to something else (retaliation makes most sense).

I should have been clearer. DH didn't get a boost as much as it was compensated by increasing the healing from F2 if you land on multiple targets. It's not the same thing, obv, but DH did gain a means of increased healing while Core/FB lost it.

I agree with your last sentence, as even running with Retreat and x/Shield, Aegis isn't going to stay up since Chrono got gutted. I still prefer it over standard DH as it brings group utility from virtues and leaves me more wiggle room on the utility bar. But I highly doubt they would roll more benefit into retaliation, not without first making retaliation harder to sustain.

Just don't understand a nerf to something nobody had/should have had a problem with.

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PvP wise, nothing has changed. Guard is an outdated class that also suffers from incoherent traitlines.

  • This balance patch focused on symbol traits. But symbols DON'T work out of pve. Symbols are static, and the game has never been more dynamic. People are not stupid enough to remain inside a symbol, in the best case it will tick once before they sidestep it. Also, the big symbol trait is misplaced in a traitline it doesn't belong to.. Suggestion (which will need underlying balance): Make the symbols follow the guard. Or nerf everything that offers mobility, so that the game doesn't look like a swarm of people flying in all the directions.

  • Guards have the lowest health pool of the game while being the class with the lowest kiting options. The defenses skills that were making it work in 2012 are no longer relevant nowadays. The amount of CC in this game totally annihilates the stability output of the guard. The poor aegis and protection uptime (if build adequatly..) is nothing compared to the defense options of all the other classes. And the only mobility skills you can think off are just a way to get closer to the opponents.

  • The virtues suck. They suck very hard. An entire traitline has to be taken to make them okayish. All the other professions have better mechanics. It would be better if the stability/breakstun on F3, condi cleanse on F2 didn't require any trait. Some traits require you to activate the virtues, and others only work if the virtues are not on CD. That's stupid.

  • Most of the utility skills are garbage. Spirit weapons are garbage. Signets are garbage. Shouts are garbage. Consecration are garbage. Meditations are good if you decide to waste an entire traitline for this sole purpose. Because yes, the other "must take traits" in Valor traitline consist in a +100 toughness, and a trait that has been sneakily shoved to ground last patch.

Between this balance patch and nothing tbh I would have chosen nothing.

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