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Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.So, in simpler words, making the combat more passive.Yes, that's definitely going to make the combat system deeper.[/sarcasm]

By the way, since you keep avoiding the issue, i'm going to ask directly. How much do you think defense needs to become stronger, considering that you can already make builds able to facetank enemies?

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

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@Ototo.3214 said:

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.So, in simpler words, making the combat
more passive
.Yes, that's definitely going to make the combat system deeper.[/sarcasm]

By the way, since you keep avoiding the issue, i'm going to ask directly. How much do you think defense needs to become stronger, considering that you can already make builds able to facetank enemies?

Suggesting I'm "avoiding" any issue is preposterous. You conflate ideas a lot in virtually all of your posts and are evading my counterpoints.

Here's the thing - It isn't my job to balance the minutiae of the game. What I'm doing is communicating a vision for how the combat system should work. How about you, instead, convince me how better tuning active and passive defense so they work together and are both useful would make combat less interesting. While you're at it, you can also try convincing me how defensive stats making your attrition worse in more situations than not by crippling your ability to kill mobs way more than offensive stats cripple your ability to survive attacks is "working as intended" or "healthy and balanced."

Numerous people in this thread have stated agreement that active defense is overpowered and that has negative repercussions across the game.

"The combination of active defenses and easy reviving in particular has been noxious. Its resulted in ArenaNet having to develop encounters where the only viable tactic is just "down the whole party with every attack" because there's no other way to be a serious threat, and even then there's alot of encounters in the game which don't end up being a threat to a decent party, even when poorly played.

By making the combat more "dynamic", you're making the encounters more "static". Despite being seen as a tool of strategy, you require less thought with active defenses since you can just click a button and become invulnerable."

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

They why do you suggest reducing the effectiveness of offensive stats? What does that have to do with making passive and active defense work better?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

They why do you suggest reducing the effectiveness of offensive stats? What does that have to do with making passive and active defense work better?

I'm suggesting a whole suite of changes to rebalance combat in the game. The details of getting the numbers exactly right would be up to Anet. Damage output and active defenses both need to be reigned in. I'm not actually suggesting buffing defensive stats in any particular way, just changing the mechanics so that active defense requires investment like anything else does.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

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@Ototo.3214 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that more than half the people in this thread agree with the basic premise that "stats are mistuned" , and about half like my ideas despite suggesting radical changes to the current state, is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distributions are weird and if they were just slightly flipped around some people would totally use them. Not all combinations are available and I can't wait for them to be.The only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a crap about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

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@Ototo.3214 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today, and opportunities for improvement.

And, no, the primary issue with active defense is that it is good without requiring any player investment or tradeoffs. This renders passive defense mostly pointless and also pigeonholes the encounter design in bad ways. I.e. lots of one-hit kill- or dodge type attacks that make combat way too much of a chaotic spam fest with no real thought behind it.

Also, your last sentence in this post shows a gross misunderstanding of what i'm suggesting.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today.

Go re-read the thread.

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@Ototo.3214 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today.

Go re-read the thread.

I've read through it numerous times.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today.

Go re-read the thread.

I've read through it numerous times.

Then you're the one suffering from a confirmation bias.

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The problem with defense stats seems that they don't buff anything, almost no ability gets better with more toughness, vitality is kinda good on necro for the shroud, but having more damage stats boosts your weapon skills, defense just doesn't increase your blocks or dodges or defense utilities. There is an issue that even the damage stats have , they need the % traits and runes and sigils to be good, missing some +5 % drops the damage dealt a lot since it is multiplicative, they should get rid of these and just add damage stat and rebalance from there.

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@Ototo.3214 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today.

Go re-read the thread.

I've read through it numerous times.

Then you're the one suffering from a confirmation bias.

Every single highly rated post in the thread is critical of the status quo. So, no, that isn't me. And if you look at individual posters, as opposed to individual posts, they are also disproportionately critical.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today.

Go re-read the thread.

I've read through it numerous times.

Then you're the one suffering from a confirmation bias.

Every single highly rated post in the thread is critical of the status quo. So, no, that isn't me.

And not all of them necessarily agree with you.

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@Ototo.3214 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today.

Go re-read the thread.

I've read through it numerous times.

Then you're the one suffering from a confirmation bias.

Every single highly rated post in the thread is critical of the status quo. So, no, that isn't me.

And not all of them necessarily agree with you.

You are being pedantic to try to cover the weakness of your argument. Virtually nobody has ideas on how to fix problems that are in perfect alignment with each other. The point is that players disproportionately see there's a problem with how things are balanced with the stats.

Ultimately, it doesn't even matter. The entire player base could be against my proposed changes and that wouldn't actually be telling at all regarding the quality of the ideas. This is something you see all the time out in the real world. New idea faces extreme criticism until they are implemented and everyone actually realizes it was a good idea. Just as common as the opposite.

Literally all the opposition I see in this thread is some variation of "no it's fine don't change it" or "you want to make combat boring" - arguments that hold no water whatsoever, especially in light of absolute dominance of berserker in the game.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today, and opportunities for improvement.

And, no, the primary issue with active defense is that it is good without requiring any player investment or tradeoffs. This renders passive defense mostly pointless and also pigeonholes the encounter design in bad ways. I.e. lots of one-hit kill- or dodge type attacks that make combat way too much of a chaotic spam fest with no real thought behind it.

Also, your last sentence in this post shows a gross misunderstanding of what i'm suggesting.

If people could dislike posts you would have a accurate picture what the people in this thread think about your posts since we cant do that trying to use likes as indication its a good idea is flawed.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

I think the main issue is this: most people do not agree it's broken.

Not all stats need to hold equal value in every game mode. Spvp for example lacks access to certain stat combinations which are available in pve and wvw and those were removed specifically to balance that game mode. Pve and wvw lack access to certain stat combinations which are available in spvp (though this might be more due to not having them added yet). PvE and WvW see very different value in stats with more defensive stats being more sought after in WvW and offensive stats in PvE. Working as intended.

As such: no, I personally do not believe the stat system is broken if certain stats are of less value in this games combat system. On the contrary, I find it refreshing that different game modes offer unique build challenges unlike many other MMOs where your final gear works everywhere.

Yes. This.

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@Linken.6345 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.

And you completely ignore how that isn't necessary. There are already working passive defense stated builds that work just fine in PvP modes. Reducing the prominence of active defense so that you can be more of a meat shield makes the game boring because most people prefer trying to actively avoid the hit rather than be forced to take the hit. Idk how that is so hard to understand.

I don't "ignore that it isn't necessary". This is a game - literally nothing is "necessary." I am saying that revamping it the right way could benefit the game enormously.

Saying it would "make the game boring" is a hollow statement that is based on a shallow (and arguably authoritarian) analysis of both the current and hypothetical future state of the combat system.

I and many others, based on the other responses I've seen, agree it would be more boring. I could just as easily say that you're previous statement that current gameplay is shallow is a hollow statement. Passive defenses are currently fine.

This is a classic case of status quo bias. The fact that about half the people in this thread agree with me despite me suggesting radical changes to the current state is a huge indicator that something is actually wrong.

For the sake of argument, I went back and read most of the posts in the thread and I'd have to say...no, most people don't necessarily agree with you. Just cause you yourself have made a bunch of posts doesn't mean a ton of people agree with you. And most of the ones that you could argue a maybe with didn't necessarily agree with your solution, but rather offered a different one or didn't agree it was worth the overhaul.I'll concede that some active defenses are probably a little too overtuned, but that doesn't require an overhaul of the system...it just requires those skills/traits/whatever they are being tweaked. As for passive defensive stats currently being useless. They aren't. I see that as a fallacious statement. Plenty of builds use them to great effect in PvP modes as I've stated numerous times. Are there tons of available stat combos that are arguably useless? Yeah, but I feel like many of them are because the stat distrubutions areThe only "status quo" I guess I'm biased toward is that...who gives a kitten about it in PvE. I'm perfectly fine with it not taking forever to kill trash mobs.

Yes, they do, based upon the likes of my posts as well as posts stating similar things throughout the thread. They may not perfectly agree with every suggestion I've made, but more people than not recognize that there's a problem with the way things are tuned today, and opportunities for improvement.

And, no, the primary issue with active defense is that it is good without requiring any player investment or tradeoffs. This renders passive defense mostly pointless and also pigeonholes the encounter design in bad ways. I.e. lots of one-hit kill- or dodge type attacks that make combat way too much of a chaotic spam fest with no real thought behind it.

Also, your last sentence in this post shows a gross misunderstanding of what i'm suggesting.

If people could dislike posts you would have a accurate picture what the people in this thread think about your posts since we cant do that trying to use likes as indication its a good idea is flawed.

Nice try, but I specifically didn't do that - I even explicitly stated that likes/dislikes have very little bearing on whether something is a good idea or not. What I'm doing is showing that a lot of people agree there's a problem, and that's just about the most you'll get on a video game forum.

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The "solution" in making defensive gear more important is very simple and doesn't require any changes to the attributes of the game.Make mobs attack faster, also allow them to attack while moving, just like players do. Solved. In competitive modes, as said numerous times in this thread, defensive stats are very useful, and the difference between PVP and PVE is that players attack much faster and can attack "on the move". This could make the combat much better, if done well, because right now mobs are giant damage sponges that attack every full moon.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Guys, look, it should be obvious, but:

Passive defense vs active defense is a false dichotomy. Literally no one is suggesting that active defense/dodge should be removed from the game so that combat can be fully passive. LITERALLY NOBODY. Stop using strawman arguments.

What's being suggested is that passive and active defense should work together to create a more satisfying, strategically deep build/combat system. Doing so would require adjusting mechanics to moderately decrease emphasis on dodging and increase emphasis on damage absorption.So, in simpler words, making the combat
more passive
.Yes, that's definitely going to make the combat system deeper.[/sarcasm]

By the way, since you keep avoiding the issue, i'm going to ask directly. How much do you think defense needs to become stronger, considering that you can already make builds able to facetank enemies?

Suggesting I'm "avoiding" any issue is preposterous. You conflate ideas a lot in virtually all of your posts and are evading my counterpoints.Funny for you to say that, considering you've just avoided answering the question i made.

Here's the thing - It isn't my job to balance the minutiae of the game. What I'm doing is communicating a vision for how the combat system should work.Yes, and that vision intentionally ignores certain facts (some of which conflict with the core assumptions you used as a basis for your whole reasoning). It also decreases importance of active play, putting more emphasis on pasive stats, thus, making the combat system more boring.

How about you, instead, convince me how better tuning active and passive defense so they work together and are both useful would make combat
less
interesting.

Like i said, putting more emphasis on passive stats makes the combat more passive, and thus more boring. I mean, you may put more thought in the preparation part (although i'd say it is debatable), but the actual combat becomes simplet. You don;t need to think how to better use pasive stats during fight - they are
passive
, they require no input from you to work.

While you're at it, you can also try convincing me how defensive stats making your attrition worse in more situations than not by crippling your ability to kill mobs way more than offensive stats cripple your ability to survive attacks is "working as intended" or "healthy and balanced."Your assumpion is factually untrue. Taking defensive stats does not make your attrition worse. It's not being good at anything that does this. The system simply works better for specialized builds - if you'll specialize for dps, you will do insane amount of damage. At the same time, if you'll specialize for defence, you will have insane survivability. It's when you try to have both that it doesn't work.

Numerous people in this thread have stated agreement that active defense is overpowered and that has negative repercussions across the game.I think your definition of "numerous" is different than mine.

"The combination of active defenses and easy reviving in particular has been noxious. Its resulted in ArenaNet having to develop encounters where the only viable tactic is just "down the whole party with every attack" because there's no other way to be a serious threat, and even then there's alot of encounters in the game which don't end up being a threat to a decent party, even when poorly played.Notice, that with the current, resourceless skill system, and HoT addition of healing specs, attrition damage doesn't really work against players. Healers are not going to run out of resources, you also can't overwhelm them with longterm sustained damage (considering they can easily use healing bursts for more than your total hp, and use those quite often). Even in the absence of healers, many bunker builds could do things like that for years.

By making the combat more "dynamic", you're making the encounters more "static". Despite being seen as a tool of strategy, you require less thought with active defenses since you can just click a button and become invulnerable."Notice, how putting more emphasis on passive stats would make it so you would need to put even less thought into combat than before. Now, you do need to use your defensive cooldowns well. Passive defence stats howeved do not have such cooldowns, they are always there.Yes, you can "just click a button and become invulnerable", but you have to know
when
to click it. If your passive defences however are good enough that you can simply survive that attack long enough for your healer to top your HP, without any conscious effort on your side, how is that better?

Also, again:There are already builds that can survive indefinitely anything short of oneshot surekills. Builds that depend on stacking defence stats to accomplish it. What is your intention for such builds for when passive stats become even more important?

Or, to phrase it differently: is your intention for survivablility to rise, go down or stay the same as currently? Same question for player dps/mob survivability.And how that would look for differnt stat sets? For berserker, for soldier, for nomad?

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Going to sum up a bit:

If the goal is just to even out the differences between the offensive and defensive stats some more, I think the easiest solutions are actually:


Balance the game back to pre-2015, where we had:

  • less damage modifiers
  • less invulnerability spam
  • less vigor etc
  • each active defense was on longer cooldown and had to be timed better
  • damage was way lower than currently
  • and almost all stat-sets was viable somewhere (like cleric roamers in wvw...)

This wouldn't force or encourage people to take defensive stats in PvE, but it would penalize them less, since there would be much less extreme difference in damage output compared to the current SnowCrow type builds. (Best solution)


Or

Force the matter through stats. Increase the base stats (for example from 1000 to 1200) and reduce the overall stats from gear set with the same total amount

PVP Zerk Amulet as example:

Old Amulet

  • Power +1200
  • Recision +900
  • Ferocity +900

New Amulet

  • Power +800
  • Precision +700
  • Ferocity +700

Total Stats

  • Stats Old New
  • Power 2200 2000
  • Prec 1900 1900
  • Tough 1000 1200
  • Vita 1000 1200
  • Fero 900 700

So the new total comes out as slightly less offensive, and slightly more defensive, and would even out builds/stats a little bit. Larger changes would naturally cause more evening out.

Builds with titanic amounts of damage modifiers isn't going to notice much difference anyways, but it would make the average pug feel slightly more survivable.

The cost of this, is that it will be even more impossible to play pure glass-cannon builds than it currently is, a lot of players enjoy that play-style.

Largest drawback however, is that in the current system, with as much powercreep we have through elite's and stacking all the damage modifiers, the stats are more or less irrelevant compared. People joke in the WvW forums that before the nerf, SoulBeast had so many damage modifiers that it could play in ministrel gear and probably still 1shot a glass cannon build. Unless that is changed, it doesn't really matter what you do to the stats to attempt to cripple the offensive ones.


And anyways, if you actually change and improve the "Encounter Design", most of the problems we currently have with the defensive gear goes away.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:The "solution" in making defensive gear more important is very simple and doesn't require any changes to the attributes of the game.Make mobs attack faster, also allow them to attack while moving, just like players do. Solved. In competitive modes, as said numerous times in this thread, defensive stats are very useful, and the difference between PVP and PVE is that players attack much faster and can attack "on the move". This could make the combat much better, if done well, because right now mobs are giant damage sponges that attack every full moon.

This doesn't really solve the issue of active defense being overpowered and requiring little to no player investment to be good. So, even if i was to generally concede this point (I do agree that adjusting encounter design to work more like PvP would go a long way, and have long been an advocate of this), I still think active defense needs to be given better symmetry with passive defense, which would more or less mean nerfing endurance regeneration and vigor and then changing vitality so that it improves endurance regeneration instead of health.

Doing this would mitigate the need to mess with offensive stats, because Berserker-based builds would end up with much less survivability than they have today, making both Vitality and Toughness attractive stats with different playstyles and benefits while also synergizing well if players wanted both to maximize their defense. IMO, this is and always was the right way to design it.

Players who really enjoy a more active-defense oriented playstyle can emphasize Vitality and dodging in their builds, while people who want to tank can go with Toughness. Both can still synergize to provide maximum attrition. Focusing purely on offensive stats would make you supremely glassy in this world, having trouble both absorbing and avoiding damage, which makes logical sense.

This would be good for the game for many reasons, but one of the biggest ones is that it would help to reign in power creep. The idea is not to "make combat passive", it's to fix defense in general so that being good at it in any form requires some investment and tradeoffs.

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