Scrapper is All Wrong.

[Obtena.7952]

That really doesn't make sense. You dropped yourself in the middle of a conversation and invented your own context. The only response to that is to try harder to follow along.

Poster asked me what 'we were supposed to be in group PVE' ... no one was talking about Holo Group PVE at all. Scrapper changes DEFINITELY do not change what you are 'supposed to be in group PVE' if you aren't concerned for what meta dictates you 'should be'. I'm gaslighting because I'm telling people they can play how they want with Scrapper in group PVE? Well, ok then. Whatever it takes to spread the good word.

The OP's whole initial post smacks of meta talk ... my favourite line is:

Scrappers are truly only useful for a side healer and nothing else

If you only want to consider what is 'best', then that makes sense ... and that's how metapushers talk.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Now I know this isn't so much of a consolation for WvW and PVP, but let me pose this question: would the vitality loss be so bad if the scrapper got a 40% damage increase from where it sits now? If holosmith got a 20% increase from where they sit now?

Holo not so much because they're still better able to apply their damage. Scrapper it woudln't matter at all because of how they have to try and apply the damage - via hammer. Hammer is still only good for smashing people too stupid too just run away/keep away and shoot you. Winning with it is hollow, sort of similar to taking gold in the special olympics. Doesn't mean you were good- just that your opponent was even dumber than you on that occasion.

[Warrior Xsr.1672]

@The Baws.5164 said:they bent scrapper over and screwed it because they didn't know anything about the class, is a better way of putting it

I second that! :'(

[Ghos.1326]

If they just increased Impact Savant's damage to barrier "conversion" from 15% to 20%, and increased the Function Gyro's health to be similar to, or slightly greater than, old Function Gyro's health, then these changes would actually not be too bad. But as someone stated before, Impact Savant's current barrier application is easily negated by retaliation, because it's a small amount, considering how often you're actually hitting an enemy in pvp. If the barrier is "too strong" in PvE, well....who cares, now you have a very effective tanking alternative for Raid groups and other forms of group content. So yeah, these 2 things need to be addressed.

[SoV.5139]

Barrier based on DPS/nerfs DPS

In other news, untethering scrapper from heal spec has caused people to explore non scrapper support specs. None of them are any good yet though, as they arent providing so much more heals than other heal specs that they make up for the permastab of FB or the auras of tempest.

[coro.3176]

@SoV.5139 said:Barrier based on DPS/nerfs DPS

In other news, untethering scrapper from heal spec has caused people to explore non scrapper support specs. None of them are any good yet though, as they arent providing so much more heals than other heal specs that they make up for the permastab of FB or the auras of tempest.

The aoe team support from gyros just can't be replaced by core engi.. but then if you're going to go support scrapper, you're stuck with practically no health and no ability to make up for it with barrier.

Likewise with condi scrapper, you're taking a vitality hit and getting nothing in return. None of the traits even work with condi or condi skills.

Please fix this anet..

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I do wonder exactly how a scrapper is supposed to be a tank if all of their defenses are paradoxically tied to their offenses. These new changes aren't going to make any raid group take a scrapper tank. They don't provide any unique utilities or buffs. They don't have any novel defensive skills that make them capable of surviving things that other classes can't. Scrappers check none of the good boxes for a tank. If anything, I'd say that scrappers are uniquely bad at it. As soon as you equip minstrel, the gimmick becomes useless. They're tied with thief for worst tank, but with thief I could chain evades long enough to distract enemies.

On the PVP side, same issue. The barrier gain would, at best, break even with the vitality loss when fighting a necro or warrior, and it doesn't compensate for all of the other lost defensive skills (barrier on hit, health regen on swiftness, etc) or the lost offensive skills that would've ended the fight faster. Keep in mind you only break even if you've done 20k damage, which essentially means you've won the fight already. As I've reiterated many times in the past, the worst kind of bonuses are the ones that only work once you've already won the fight, because then you don't need them anymore. That barrier... it's not helping you to win. It's only there after you've already won. Scrappers make pretty terrible point bunkers, and now that their damage + defense + healing + stability has been nerfed, they're pretty bad WvW frontliners, too.

What am I supposed to do? I can't tank anything.

[DrDoctor.8091]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I do wonder exactly how a scrapper is supposed to be a tank if all of their defenses are paradoxically tied to their offenses. These new changes aren't going to make any raid group take a scrapper tank. They don't provide any unique utilities or buffs. They don't have any novel defensive skills that make them capable of surviving things that other classes can't. Scrappers check none of the good boxes for a tank. If anything, I'd say that scrappers are uniquely bad at it. As soon as you equip minstrel, the gimmick becomes useless. They're tied with thief for worst tank, but with thief I could chain evades long enough to distract enemies.

On the PVP side, same issue. The barrier gain would, at best, break even with the vitality loss when fighting a necro or warrior, and it doesn't compensate for all of the other lost defensive skills (barrier on hit, health regen on swiftness, etc) or the lost offensive skills that would've ended the fight faster. Keep in mind you only break even if you've done 20k damage, which essentially means you've won the fight already. As I've reiterated many times in the past, the worst kind of bonuses are the ones that only work once you've already won the fight, because then you don't need them anymore. That barrier... it's not helping you to win. It's only there after you've already won. Scrappers make pretty terrible point bunkers, and now that their damage + defense + healing + stability has been nerfed, they're pretty bad WvW frontliners, too.

What am I supposed to do? I can't tank anything.

Then don't make them a tank, or at least don't use 'tank' to describe them. I would be fine if they were a unique damage dealer, mainly being a glass cannon and using there damage to give themselves barrier to support themselves or something like that.

[redwing.9580]

@The Baws.5164 said:they bent scrapper over and screwed it because they didn't know anything about the class, is a better way of putting it

this your first time here?

[Vagrant.7206]

@"TheWeirdoNik.6247" said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I do wonder exactly how a scrapper is supposed to be a tank if all of their defenses are paradoxically tied to their offenses. These new changes aren't going to make any raid group take a scrapper tank. They don't provide any unique utilities or buffs. They don't have any novel defensive skills that make them capable of surviving things that other classes can't. Scrappers check none of the good boxes for a tank. If anything, I'd say that scrappers are uniquely bad at it. As soon as you equip minstrel, the gimmick becomes useless. They're tied with thief for worst tank, but with thief I could chain evades long enough to distract enemies.

On the PVP side, same issue. The barrier gain would, at best, break even with the vitality loss when fighting a necro or warrior, and it doesn't compensate for all of the other lost defensive skills (barrier on hit, health regen on swiftness, etc) or the lost offensive skills that would've ended the fight faster. Keep in mind you only break even if you've done 20k damage, which essentially means you've won the fight already. As I've reiterated many times in the past, the worst kind of bonuses are the ones that only work once you've already won the fight, because then you don't need them anymore. That barrier... it's not helping you to win. It's only there after you've already won. Scrappers make pretty terrible point bunkers, and now that their damage + defense + healing + stability has been nerfed, they're pretty bad WvW frontliners, too.

What am I supposed to do? I can't tank

anything.

Then don't make them a tank, or at least don't use 'tank' to describe them. I would be fine if they were a unique damage dealer, mainly being a glass cannon and using there damage to give themselves barrier to support themselves or something like that.

Except they're bad at DPS too.

Scrapper has always existed in this really odd limbo in PvE, because it was always designed for PvP. The devs keep saying it's supposed to be a tank, but chrono and warriors have always made better tanks. Then, after it gets enough buffs to be viable in PvP, they nerf the crap out of it, nerfing PvE builds in the process. Scrapper healer is basically gone now (lost a large source of healing AND health in one fell swoop), and scrapper is still not any more of a tank.