What is with the obsession with Condi play?

[coro.3176]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Conditions just need a bit of toning down on extreme situations vs players.

This can be done with a Dynamic Balance measure that will not affect most of gameplay, only extreme situations of condi overstacking.

After they allowed conditions to stack over 25 on NPCs, they also applied to change to players.Players and NPCs can't have the same limitations.Confusion does less damage to players than to NPCs. So it's possible to make conditions work differently on players.

To prevent overstacking of conditions on a single player, we just need two changes on the limitations of applying conditions on players, but only on players: A maximum stack of 15 on any given player for any condition, and a total cap of 50 stacks among all conditions on each individual player, counting individually those stacked by duration.Only the strongest stacks would apply on a player: Longer duration, higher condition damage. Any past the cap would not be removed, it would just be put 'on hold' until a stronger one ends and they get a free 'active condition slot' they can occupy.

I mean, before we go and make those kind of changes, consider that on my support scrapper, I can currently cleanse something like 50 entire stacks of conditions in a 20s interval from everyone around me. That's like over 2 condi cleansed per second. The only way to actually stick damage against such cleanse is to frantically spam cover conditions and hope that you can stick 6 or 7 and that your damaging condi is at the beginning of the stack so it's last cleansed. If you do all that, you might get up to 4 ticks of it rather than 0-1.

Edit: actually, you can cut that roughly in half, as this calculation was for WvW with antitoxin runes, but the argument is the same. Even cleansing >1 condi per second is an awful lot. It contributes to an arms race between condi application and condi cleanse where the condi attacker needs to apply more and more different condi in order to deal any damage and the defender needs to cleanse more and more condi in order to keep up.

I guarantee no one is stacking condi to 25 these days. It's exceedingly rare to see a condition even stacked to 15. Maybe certain mesmer builds can stack that much confusion, but only for a very short duration, and there is very clear counterplay to it in that you just wait a second or two without attacking and the confusion will drop down to a much more manageable # of stacks.

If anything, I'd recommend less overall cleanse - like, remove most if not all of the cleansing traits and have a reasonable amount of cleanse only on heal skills. Then cut back on the # of spam condi applied by condi classes and # of stacks if needed.

[Vicariuz.1605]

@coro.3176 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Conditions just need a bit of toning down on extreme situations vs players.

This can be done with a Dynamic Balance measure that will not affect most of gameplay, only extreme situations of condi overstacking.

After they allowed conditions to stack over 25 on NPCs, they also applied to change to players.Players and NPCs can't have the same limitations.Confusion does less damage to players than to NPCs. So it's possible to make conditions work differently on players.

To prevent overstacking of conditions on a single player, we just need two changes on the limitations of applying conditions on players, but only on players: A maximum stack of 15 on any given player for any condition, and a total cap of 50 stacks among all conditions on each individual player, counting individually those stacked by duration.Only the strongest stacks would apply on a player: Longer duration, higher condition damage. Any past the cap would not be removed, it would just be put 'on hold' until a stronger one ends and they get a free 'active condition slot' they can occupy.

I mean, before we go and make those kind of changes, consider that on my support scrapper, I can currently cleanse something like 50 entire stacks of conditions in a 20s interval from everyone around me. That's like over 2 condi cleansed per second. The only way to actually stick damage against such cleanse is to frantically spam cover conditions and hope that you can stick 6 or 7 and that your damaging condi is at the beginning of the stack so it's last cleansed. If you do all that, you might get up to 4 ticks of it rather than 0-1.

Edit

: actually, you can cut that roughly in half, as this calculation was for WvW with antitoxin runes, but the argument is the same. Even cleansing >1 condi per second is an awful lot. It contributes to an arms race between condi application and condi cleanse where the condi attacker needs to apply more and more different condi in order to deal any damage and the defender needs to cleanse more and more condi in order to keep up.

I guarantee no one is stacking condi to 25 these days. It's exceedingly rare to see a condition even stacked to 15. Maybe certain mesmer builds can stack that much confusion, but only for a very short duration, and there is very clear counterplay to it in that you just wait a second or two without attacking and the confusion will drop down to a much more manageable # of stacks.

If anything, I'd recommend

less

overall cleanse - like, remove most if not all of the cleansing traits and have a reasonable amount of cleanse only on heal skills. Then cut back on the # of spam condi applied by condi classes and # of stacks if needed.

tbf, as a mesmer player, condi mirage can 30 stack you with bleed, 10-14 confusion, 10+ torment within 3-4 seconds should the skills not be dodged/blocked/blinded/invuln. They last far longer than is required to kill. you either cleanse or die. a good mesmer will make sure you arent doing anything while they tick other than instant cast clears.

https://imgur.com/a/rSSD4bE

https://imgur.com/a/zcwjT6X

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@coro.3176 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Conditions just need a bit of toning down on extreme situations vs players.

This can be done with a Dynamic Balance measure that will not affect most of gameplay, only extreme situations of condi overstacking.

After they allowed conditions to stack over 25 on NPCs, they also applied to change to players.Players and NPCs can't have the same limitations.Confusion does less damage to players than to NPCs. So it's possible to make conditions work differently on players.

To prevent overstacking of conditions on a single player, we just need two changes on the limitations of applying conditions on players, but only on players: A maximum stack of 15 on any given player for any condition, and a total cap of 50 stacks among all conditions on each individual player, counting individually those stacked by duration.Only the strongest stacks would apply on a player: Longer duration, higher condition damage. Any past the cap would not be removed, it would just be put 'on hold' until a stronger one ends and they get a free 'active condition slot' they can occupy.

I mean, before we go and make those kind of changes, consider that on my support scrapper, I can currently cleanse something like 50 entire stacks of conditions in a 20s interval from everyone around me. That's like over 2 condi cleansed per second. The only way to actually stick damage against such cleanse is to frantically spam cover conditions and hope that you can stick 6 or 7 and that your damaging condi is at the beginning of the stack so it's last cleansed. If you do all that, you might get up to 4 ticks of it rather than 0-1.

Edit

: actually, you can cut that roughly in half, as this calculation was for WvW with antitoxin runes, but the argument is the same. Even cleansing >1 condi per second is an awful lot. It contributes to an arms race between condi application and condi cleanse where the condi attacker needs to apply more and more different condi in order to deal any damage and the defender needs to cleanse more and more condi in order to keep up.

I guarantee no one is stacking condi to 25 these days. It's exceedingly rare to see a condition even stacked to 15. Maybe certain mesmer builds can stack that much confusion, but only for a very short duration, and there is very clear counterplay to it in that you just wait a second or two without attacking and the confusion will drop down to a much more manageable # of stacks.

If anything, I'd recommend

less

overall cleanse - like, remove most if not all of the cleansing traits and have a reasonable amount of cleanse only on heal skills. Then cut back on the # of spam condi applied by condi classes and # of stacks if needed.

Arms races have to be cut short. That's true.

Another dynamic balance measure that we could have is having condition and boon 'aftereffects'.

Remember how soft CC conditions go 'gray' when applied to an enemy with a breakbar? The same or a similar graphic would be used for this.

When a condition or boon is removed, they would not get simply removed. They would be replaced by a 2s effect that prevents applying again the same boon or condition, cutting short condition and boom spam, and making removal skills more useful.

Thanks to that, it would also be possible to reduce spammability of skills that remove conditions or boons, since they would not be expected to be reapplied right away after being removed. There would be a 2s wait during which the removal is guaranteed to have an effect without being made trivial by spam.

[coro.3176]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Conditions just need a bit of toning down on extreme situations vs players.

This can be done with a Dynamic Balance measure that will not affect most of gameplay, only extreme situations of condi overstacking.

After they allowed conditions to stack over 25 on NPCs, they also applied to change to players.Players and NPCs can't have the same limitations.Confusion does less damage to players than to NPCs. So it's possible to make conditions work differently on players.

To prevent overstacking of conditions on a single player, we just need two changes on the limitations of applying conditions on players, but only on players: A maximum stack of 15 on any given player for any condition, and a total cap of 50 stacks among all conditions on each individual player, counting individually those stacked by duration.Only the strongest stacks would apply on a player: Longer duration, higher condition damage. Any past the cap would not be removed, it would just be put 'on hold' until a stronger one ends and they get a free 'active condition slot' they can occupy.

I mean, before we go and make those kind of changes, consider that on my support scrapper, I can currently cleanse something like 50 entire stacks of conditions in a 20s interval from everyone around me. That's like over 2 condi cleansed per second. The only way to actually stick damage against such cleanse is to frantically spam cover conditions and hope that you can stick 6 or 7 and that your damaging condi is at the beginning of the stack so it's last cleansed. If you do all that, you might get up to 4 ticks of it rather than 0-1.

Edit

: actually, you can cut that roughly in half, as this calculation was for WvW with antitoxin runes, but the argument is the same. Even cleansing >1 condi per second is an awful lot. It contributes to an arms race between condi application and condi cleanse where the condi attacker needs to apply more and more different condi in order to deal any damage and the defender needs to cleanse more and more condi in order to keep up.

I guarantee no one is stacking condi to 25 these days. It's exceedingly rare to see a condition even stacked to 15. Maybe certain mesmer builds can stack that much confusion, but only for a very short duration, and there is very clear counterplay to it in that you just wait a second or two without attacking and the confusion will drop down to a much more manageable # of stacks.

If anything, I'd recommend

less

overall cleanse - like, remove most if not all of the cleansing traits and have a reasonable amount of cleanse only on heal skills. Then cut back on the # of spam condi applied by condi classes and # of stacks if needed.

Arms races have to be cut short. That's true.

Another dynamic balance measure that we could have is having condition and boon 'aftereffects'.

Remember how soft CC conditions go 'gray' when applied to an enemy with a breakbar? The same or a similar graphic would be used for this.

When a condition or boon is removed, they would not get simply removed. They would be replaced by a 2s effect that prevents applying again the same boon or condition, cutting short condition and boom spam, and making removal skills more useful.

Thanks to that, it would also be possible to reduce spammability of skills and remove conditions or boons, since they would not be expected to be reapplied right away after being removed. There would be a 2s wait during which the removal is guaranteed to have an effect without being made trivial by spam.

Is there any reason why you would need that lockout for condi but not power? If you block a power attack, there's nothing stopping the opponent from immediately hitting you again with a large power burst. I don't see why it should be different for condi.

Most condi skills aren't spammable. At least, not in any sense more spammable than power builds. Maybe mirage is an exception due to clones, but I would say most other condi builds function similarly to their power equivalents.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@coro.3176 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Conditions just need a bit of toning down on extreme situations vs players.

This can be done with a Dynamic Balance measure that will not affect most of gameplay, only extreme situations of condi overstacking.

After they allowed conditions to stack over 25 on NPCs, they also applied to change to players.Players and NPCs can't have the same limitations.Confusion does less damage to players than to NPCs. So it's possible to make conditions work differently on players.

To prevent overstacking of conditions on a single player, we just need two changes on the limitations of applying conditions on players, but only on players: A maximum stack of 15 on any given player for any condition, and a total cap of 50 stacks among all conditions on each individual player, counting individually those stacked by duration.Only the strongest stacks would apply on a player: Longer duration, higher condition damage. Any past the cap would not be removed, it would just be put 'on hold' until a stronger one ends and they get a free 'active condition slot' they can occupy.

I mean, before we go and make those kind of changes, consider that on my support scrapper, I can currently cleanse something like 50 entire stacks of conditions in a 20s interval from everyone around me. That's like over 2 condi cleansed per second. The only way to actually stick damage against such cleanse is to frantically spam cover conditions and hope that you can stick 6 or 7 and that your damaging condi is at the beginning of the stack so it's last cleansed. If you do all that, you might get up to 4 ticks of it rather than 0-1.

Edit

: actually, you can cut that roughly in half, as this calculation was for WvW with antitoxin runes, but the argument is the same. Even cleansing >1 condi per second is an awful lot. It contributes to an arms race between condi application and condi cleanse where the condi attacker needs to apply more and more different condi in order to deal any damage and the defender needs to cleanse more and more condi in order to keep up.

I guarantee no one is stacking condi to 25 these days. It's exceedingly rare to see a condition even stacked to 15. Maybe certain mesmer builds can stack that much confusion, but only for a very short duration, and there is very clear counterplay to it in that you just wait a second or two without attacking and the confusion will drop down to a much more manageable # of stacks.

If anything, I'd recommend

less

overall cleanse - like, remove most if not all of the cleansing traits and have a reasonable amount of cleanse only on heal skills. Then cut back on the # of spam condi applied by condi classes and # of stacks if needed.

Arms races have to be cut short. That's true.

Another dynamic balance measure that we could have is having condition and boon 'aftereffects'.

Remember how soft CC conditions go 'gray' when applied to an enemy with a breakbar? The same or a similar graphic would be used for this.

When a condition or boon is removed, they would not get simply removed. They would be replaced by a 2s effect that prevents applying again the same boon or condition, cutting short condition and boom spam, and making removal skills more useful.

Thanks to that, it would also be possible to reduce spammability of skills and remove conditions or boons, since they would not be expected to be reapplied right away after being removed. There would be a 2s wait during which the removal is guaranteed to have an effect without being made trivial by spam.

Is there any reason why you would need that lockout for condi but not power? If you block a power attack, there's nothing stopping the opponent from immediately hitting you again with a large power burst. I don't see why it should be different for condi.

Most condi skills aren't spammable. At least, not in any sense

more

spammable than power builds. Maybe mirage is an exception due to clones, but I would say most other condi builds function similarly to their power equivalents.

But there's lockouts for power. Just two though. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone. Not enough to make them a reason for anything.Nevertheless, even if blocks and evades work the same against both, condition is still fundamentally different.

Do not forget that while Protection reduces power damage partially, Resistance reduces it by 100% while it lasts. And while Power damage is instant, condition damage builds up. Conditions can do damage while you run around avoiding the enemy or go into stealth, but for power damage you have to be actively engaged and deal continuous hits. Every power hit not avoided is damage already done, every condition hit not avoided is damage that will keep going. And do not forget the numbers. Without condition removal and healing skills, just 2-4 of condition skills can take someone down inevitably.

Resistance itself could use being split into two effects, one for dps conditions and vulnerability, and other for the soft cc conditions. Allowing a more fine-tuned distribution in skills. Resistance is too strong to give it too often. If it was two separate effects, it would be possible to give either or both more freely. If both would be too strong, it'd be just one.

The main objective is making removals have a minimum meaningful impact. Even if it's just 1s, to discourage skill spamming, making it less effective than a more tactical approach.

Many games have mechanics with the same purpose, like how holding the trigger in a shooter game reduces accuracy, or how hits in a fighting game combo do less and less damage to reduce the chances of going down in a single combo form the start.

In the same manner, breaking a stun should give 0.75s of immunity to further stuns regardless of having stability or not. Allowing players to evade away from heaving CC span if they have a stun break.

The idea is that players should react to the actions of the enemy as much as possible, rather than getting them deadlocked in a skill combo that more often than not still works regardless of what the enemy does.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" said:What's with the myth of power builds taking "skill"? Rangerspam, Holospam, rampage cringe, no line of sight teleport nukes, stealth nukes, evade spam while dealing damage, immunity chaining on squishy builds, crowd control spam and all and every one-shot nonesense are in my book even worse.

A condi build user can safely play defensively while the dmg is still being applied to the enemy that's the true definition of unskilled gameplay : having the cake and eating it too with cherry on top , you can keep pressure while being on the defensive ....you can't do that with power builds, you need to commit yourself all the way, taking risks along the way of being outplayed , with condi build instead?! Apply safely one full condi bomb than start running in circle- hide behind the wall while the damage is passively ticking and that should be considered "skilled gameplay" accordingly to some peeps in the GW2 community.

Condition damage in GW2 is extremely badly designed : requiring a single stat to do dmg it's the reason why condi builds are so loved , you can be a freaking tank and still do stupid dmg, that's the true definition of braindead gameplay , you don't need to make compromises!

-Who gives a damn if the enemy has stability - protection - vigor or some other boon?....I spam condis and I win eventually-Who gives a damn how much toughness you have?....I spam condis and I win eventually

That's the benefit of playing condis in GW2, you don't need to give a damn about majority of the gameplay , it's easy and effective gameplay ! The number of necros quadruplied since HoT launch, at launch we had deathly chill spam fest and we had 4-5 reapers per game and there was also condi chrono, before that there was cele d/d ele fire/water/arcana.

7 Years into this game and some players like OP still ask why the obsession with condi play and the answer is always the same : you can build like a tank and still do stupid amount of damage, that linger on even if you go full defensive mode

[Naxos.2503]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" said:What's with the myth of power builds taking "skill"? Rangerspam, Holospam, rampage cringe, no line of sight teleport nukes, stealth nukes, evade spam while dealing damage, immunity chaining on squishy builds, crowd control spam and all and every one-shot nonesense are in my book even worse.

A condi build user can safely play defensively while the dmg is still being applied to the enemy

that's the true definition of unskilled gameplay : having the cake and eating it too with cherry on top

, you can keep pressure while being on the defensive ....you can't do that with power builds, you need to commit yourself all the way, taking risks along the way of being outplayed , with condi build instead?! Apply safely one full condi bomb than start running in circle- hide behind the wall while the damage is passively ticking and that should be considered "skilled gameplay" accordingly to some peeps in the GW2 community.

Condition damage in GW2 is extremely badly designed :

requiring a single stat to do dmg it's the reason why condi builds are so loved

, you can be a freaking tank and still do stupid dmg, that's the true definition of braindead gameplay , you don't need to make compromises!

-Who gives a kitten if the enemy has stability - protection - vigor or some other boon?....I spam condis and I win eventually-Who gives a kitten how much toughness you have?....I spam condis and I win eventually

That's the benefit of playing condis in GW2, you don't need to give a kitten about majority of the gameplay , it's easy and effective gameplay !

The number of necros quadruplied since HoT launch

, at launch we had deathly chill spam fest and we had 4-5 reapers per game and there was also condi chrono, before that there was cele d/d ele fire/water/arcana.

7 Years into this game and some players like OP still ask why the obsession with condi play and the answer is always the same :

you can build like a tank and still do stupid amount of damage, that linger on even if you go full defensive mode

Actually, if you Really focus on playing defensively, your stacks of condis go bye-bye. The "defensive play window" is essentially 1 dodge or block or evasion worth of time.

To do any amount of Meaningful condi damage, constant application and renewal of the conditions is necessary. Which is why condi builds -have- to spec their whole skill bar with condition based skills, at the cost of sustain, support, and straight damage, something that power based players can do without, and freely pick support based skills or sustain skills. The playing defensively resulting from conditions is a direct result of Having to fight defensively due to lack of any defensive skills.

To note for someone who want to kill a condi user : That means most times, condi players lack : Block, Cleanse, Stunbreak. The most solid counterplay to a condi player is CC, or strong power damage.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" said:What's with the myth of power builds taking "skill"? Rangerspam, Holospam, rampage cringe, no line of sight teleport nukes, stealth nukes, evade spam while dealing damage, immunity chaining on squishy builds, crowd control spam and all and every one-shot nonesense are in my book even worse.

A condi build user can safely play defensively while the dmg is still being applied to the enemy

that's the true definition of unskilled gameplay : having the cake and eating it too with cherry on top

, you can keep pressure while being on the defensive ....you can't do that with power builds, you need to commit yourself all the way, taking risks along the way of being outplayed , with condi build instead?! Apply safely one full condi bomb than start running in circle- hide behind the wall while the damage is passively ticking and that should be considered "skilled gameplay" accordingly to some peeps in the GW2 community.

Condition damage in GW2 is extremely badly designed :

requiring a single stat to do dmg it's the reason why condi builds are so loved

, you can be a freaking tank and still do stupid dmg, that's the true definition of braindead gameplay , you don't need to make compromises!

-Who gives a kitten if the enemy has stability - protection - vigor or some other boon?....I spam condis and I win eventually-Who gives a kitten how much toughness you have?....I spam condis and I win eventually

That's the benefit of playing condis in GW2, you don't need to give a kitten about majority of the gameplay , it's easy and effective gameplay !

The number of necros quadruplied since HoT launch

, at launch we had deathly chill spam fest and we had 4-5 reapers per game and there was also condi chrono, before that there was cele d/d ele fire/water/arcana.

7 Years into this game and some players like OP still ask why the obsession with condi play and the answer is always the same :

you can build like a tank and still do stupid amount of damage, that linger on even if you go full defensive mode

Actually, if you Really focus on playing defensively, your stacks of condis go bye-bye. The "defensive play window" is essentially 1 dodge or block or evasion worth of time.

To do any amount of Meaningful condi damage, constant application and renewal of the conditions is necessary. Which is why condi builds -have- to spec their whole skill bar with condition based skills, at the cost of sustain, support, and straight damage, something that power based players can do without, and freely pick support based skills or sustain skills. The playing defensively resulting from conditions is a direct result of Having to fight defensively due to lack of any defensive skills.

To note for someone who want to kill a condi user : That means most times, condi players lack : Block, Cleanse, Stunbreak. The most solid counterplay to a condi player is CC, or strong power damage.

Mirage would like to have a word with you

[Sigmoid.7082]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Conditions just need a bit of toning down on extreme situations vs players.

This can be done with a Dynamic Balance measure that will not affect most of gameplay, only extreme situations of condi overstacking.

After they allowed conditions to stack over 25 on NPCs, they also applied to change to players.Players and NPCs can't have the same limitations.Confusion does less damage to players than to NPCs. So it's possible to make conditions work differently on players.

To prevent overstacking of conditions on a single player, we just need two changes on the limitations of applying conditions on players, but only on players: A maximum stack of 15 on any given player for any condition, and a total cap of 50 stacks among all conditions on each individual player, counting individually those stacked by duration.Only the strongest stacks would apply on a player: Longer duration, higher condition damage. Any past the cap would not be removed, it would just be put 'on hold' until a stronger one ends and they get a free 'active condition slot' they can occupy.

Imagine not being able to do strike damage to someone because someone already hit them a second ago. Sounds silly right? Player X's interaction with Player Y should never be so limited by their interaction with player Z that player X is essentially doing nothing. Look at the game before the stack change. Condi was trash, you couldnt have more than 1 condi player per team since they would step on each others toes and be less effective.

Also , unrelated to quoted post, I find it odd that somehow people think its strange that they cant cleanse all conditions or after removing them they start being stacked again. Its like expecting someone to stop attacking / doing damage to you after you use a skill to mitigate strike damage. Again sounds silly right?

And the spam notion? Isn't strike damage spammed? There is a huge false put forward that one takes more skill when in reality neither really do.

"iT sHoUlD bE oVEr TiMe"...it is. in 9/10 cases you will take more strike damage per unit time than condition. Like the pictures in threads before "See its OP, I took 100k condi damage" can be read as "I took 4~6* my max hp in condi damage before i died!" where as because strike damage is instant you naturally take less of it before you die.

And lastly my favourite. One condi build is OP? "All Condi OP". One power build is OP? "its this particular combination of skills in this build in combination with these traits that needs to be changed".

What would help is if the death breakdown actually showed what skill applied what condi and how much the condi damage from that skill did since ATM its just grouped and isnt useful for learning what to dodge.

[Naxos.2503]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" said:What's with the myth of power builds taking "skill"? Rangerspam, Holospam, rampage cringe, no line of sight teleport nukes, stealth nukes, evade spam while dealing damage, immunity chaining on squishy builds, crowd control spam and all and every one-shot nonesense are in my book even worse.

A condi build user can safely play defensively while the dmg is still being applied to the enemy

that's the true definition of unskilled gameplay : having the cake and eating it too with cherry on top

, you can keep pressure while being on the defensive ....you can't do that with power builds, you need to commit yourself all the way, taking risks along the way of being outplayed , with condi build instead?! Apply safely one full condi bomb than start running in circle- hide behind the wall while the damage is passively ticking and that should be considered "skilled gameplay" accordingly to some peeps in the GW2 community.

Condition damage in GW2 is extremely badly designed :

requiring a single stat to do dmg it's the reason why condi builds are so loved

, you can be a freaking tank and still do stupid dmg, that's the true definition of braindead gameplay , you don't need to make compromises!

-Who gives a kitten if the enemy has stability - protection - vigor or some other boon?....I spam condis and I win eventually-Who gives a kitten how much toughness you have?....I spam condis and I win eventually

That's the benefit of playing condis in GW2, you don't need to give a kitten about majority of the gameplay , it's easy and effective gameplay !

The number of necros quadruplied since HoT launch

, at launch we had deathly chill spam fest and we had 4-5 reapers per game and there was also condi chrono, before that there was cele d/d ele fire/water/arcana.

7 Years into this game and some players like OP still ask why the obsession with condi play and the answer is always the same :

you can build like a tank and still do stupid amount of damage, that linger on even if you go full defensive mode

Actually, if you Really focus on playing defensively, your stacks of condis go bye-bye. The "defensive play window" is essentially 1 dodge or block or evasion worth of time.

To do any amount of Meaningful condi damage, constant application and renewal of the conditions is necessary. Which is why condi builds -have- to spec their whole skill bar with condition based skills, at the cost of sustain, support, and straight damage, something that power based players can do without, and freely pick support based skills or sustain skills. The playing defensively resulting from conditions is a direct result of Having to fight defensively due to lack of any defensive skills.

To note for someone who want to kill a condi user : That means most times, condi players lack : Block, Cleanse, Stunbreak. The most solid counterplay to a condi player is CC, or strong power damage.

Mirage would like to have a word with you

Agreed, and that's a recurring point as well. Many people feel the same on that issue, Mirages can manage to do such a burst of condi, they actually dont fit fully into the mold

[coro.3176]

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:What would help is if the death breakdown actually showed what skill applied what condi and how much the condi damage from that skill did since ATM its just grouped and isnt useful for learning what to dodge.

Right! People just see the stacks and complain "I died to burn spam".

Well... no.

You died because you got CC'd by a pull with a 1.25s cast time and dodgeable animation (and stunbreakable if you missed it), then punished with a melee range skill on a 15s cooldown. Then another melee range skill on a 15s coldown, then another (effectively) melee range skill on a 12s cooldown.

Then you got hit by various cover conditions (cripple, vuln, blind, bleed etc) applied by 4 other skills, and that's why your cleanse didn't reach the burn and you eventually died - ~10 seconds later.

You didn't die to spam. You died to a carefully planned combo of skills designed to keep you from being able to cleanse the damage, and you GOT HIT BY THEM ALL. If you managed to avoid even some of that combo, your cleanse would have made it to the burn and I would have had to wait another 15s before trying again while harassing with very very low damage and trying not to die myself.

Heck, most of the time I can land that entire combo and my opponent can cleanse it all anyway just because there's that much cleanse in the game. If those skills were power instead of condi, I'd just spec berserker and 1-shot my opponents with them like most of the existing power builds. Instead, my opponents have ample opportunity to survive.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

A lot of the condi hate has to be psychological.

Starting with the fact that direct damage is represented in the UI only by fleeting numbers, while condis show up as a row of scary red icons that hang around for a bit.

[Leonidrex.5649]

The most condi hate comes from this, you get hit by huge arcing, peeps think i got hit so i lost alot of hp, fair game.but when they get hit with condi attacks, their HP doesnt immidetly go down, so they assume they dont get hit, it stacks and then they burn/bleed whatever and go on forums to complain.

[Dajas.4715]

When I play my s/d condi thief I always get whispers from power s/d thief's saying I play noob mode. it literally makes no sence as the weapon sets are the same, so essentially the play style is the same, it's just a different way to apply damage. Condi is not difficult to deal with if you know the key skills to avoid and funnily enough that work against power also ?

[Damocles.4908]

Condi is useful for when a player has high toughness and can just stay in place without issues against physical damage, I can understand one frustration with an aoe the places about 7 different types of condi in an instant but for something like the warriors flurry ability its very difficult to actually land the full cast as there are many counters and with only bleed and immobilise, one condi remover is enough to escape.

so yea condi can be like radiation, it can be used for good and bad

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

This game is all about spam, not only condi, every single build, that's what you get when you think you're more clever than every other mmo designer and remove a form of management.Regarding condis, check gw1 condi mechanics, copy it to gw2 and remove a kitten ton of condi cleanses.

[Axl.8924]

@"NuhDah.9812" said:Let's say we cut the usual power dmg in half... hack no, let's make it a quarter of it's current dmg. Now let's apply a new twist to it to make it like how condi dmg can stack in high quantities also being able to be spammed in several different types and so make direct attacks hit several times with each hit, while the person attack can only dodge or block 1 or few of the emitted attack, same way you can't dodge condi attacks only like as long as you have dodges, for most professions times 2, or other blocks on cooldown. When you would dodge you'll mitigate only like a quarter of any direct dmg... Let's use the block as counterpart to condition cleansing now so when you block you might get away with a fifth, a quarter, a third or half dmg mitigation of the incoming dmg.

Would you, condi lovers, like to play against such odds? I mean you can already burst with condi as much as you can with a power build... only today I've fought (WvW) against an engi which I engaged, dodged it's most obvoius tells and interrupted his attack, and few seconds later I see my health drop 1 second by over 6k burning ticks that appeared on me out of nowhere. Yeap, a second 12k dmg, my backstab burst almost never hits that hard... And yeah thief is considered one of the more bursty professions.

So, yeah, in contrast to burst dmg which is called that cause you can't use it all the time in contrast with sustain, condies can sustain burst amounts of dmg over time. Most of the professions there don't have nearly enough condition cleanse, resistance and other forms of condition mitigation to counter all the condi bombing thrown around, while for neutralizing bursts there are numerous ways in the game and it's a must to be able to that if you want to survive in a fight. Yeah, you need reflexes, awareness, positioning and other human input traits to do so effectively, but non the less there are, also since the burst usually has either huge tells or huge drawbacks (like spending most of your combat resource, getting into an unfavorable position or other). You dodge a burst, you are safe for some time, cooldowns, endurance are recovering for the next burst. You dodge a condi attack, never mind there are another dozen coming, you don't, pray you have something to cleanse them or play something with boonstack & resistance, cause passive gameplay is what we all want...

Now that I think about it, I have this genius idea of a WvW event week called "The Passive Week" where all direct dmg is removed and the only way players can fight is with condies and boons.

Anyways, the ranting is closed, condies in my opinion should only be toned down form the burst level of dmg they can do now, and those who build for heavy condi should have the same drawbacks as those who build for heavy power, meaning to spend the other 2/3 secondary attributes on enhancing condi, not getting tankier. I mean, you go full power, you glass cannon, you go full condi, it's not fair to do same amounts of dmg or more over time and also get a sustainy secondary stats. You either go glass or compromise in the damage side.

You cant have condi do no damage, because not every class has infinite sustain. Either they get sustain from condi to survive a long time to see people drop, or condies have to burst hard.

You would have to nerf power dmg so that people dont drop super fast so we can see longer games where people are slowly wittled down.

[lare.5129]

this is sadness cry from toughness bunkers or what?if someone think that condi is op - use it. I don't see any condi domination.

[NuhDah.9812]

@Axl.8924 said:

@"NuhDah.9812" said:Let's say we cut the usual power dmg in half... hack no, let's make it a quarter of it's current dmg. Now let's apply a new twist to it to make it like how condi dmg can stack in high quantities also being able to be spammed in several different types and so make direct attacks hit several times with each hit, while the person attack can only dodge or block 1 or few of the emitted attack, same way you can't dodge condi attacks only like as long as you have dodges, for most professions times 2, or other blocks on cooldown. When you would dodge you'll mitigate only like a quarter of any direct dmg... Let's use the block as counterpart to condition cleansing now so when you block you might get away with a fifth, a quarter, a third or half dmg mitigation of the incoming dmg.

Would you, condi lovers, like to play against such odds? I mean you can already burst with condi as much as you can with a power build... only today I've fought (WvW) against an engi which I engaged, dodged it's most obvoius tells and interrupted his attack, and few seconds later I see my health drop 1 second by over 6k burning ticks that appeared on me out of nowhere. Yeap, a second 12k dmg, my backstab burst almost never hits that hard... And yeah thief is considered one of the more bursty professions.

So, yeah, in contrast to burst dmg which is called that cause you can't use it all the time in contrast with sustain, condies can sustain burst amounts of dmg over time. Most of the professions there don't have nearly enough condition cleanse, resistance and other forms of condition mitigation to counter all the condi bombing thrown around, while for neutralizing bursts there are numerous ways in the game and it's a must to be able to that if you want to survive in a fight. Yeah, you need reflexes, awareness, positioning and other human input traits to do so effectively, but non the less there are, also since the burst usually has either huge tells or huge drawbacks (like spending most of your combat resource, getting into an unfavorable position or other). You dodge a burst, you are safe for some time, cooldowns, endurance are recovering for the next burst. You dodge a condi attack, never mind there are another dozen coming, you don't, pray you have something to cleanse them or play something with boonstack & resistance, cause passive gameplay is what we all want...

Now that I think about it, I have this genius idea of a WvW event week called "The Passive Week" where all direct dmg is removed and the only way players can fight is with condies and boons.

Anyways, the ranting is closed, condies in my opinion should only be toned down form the burst level of dmg they can do now, and those who build for heavy condi should have the same drawbacks as those who build for heavy power, meaning to spend the other 2/3 secondary attributes on enhancing condi, not getting tankier. I mean, you go full power, you glass cannon, you go full condi, it's not fair to do same amounts of dmg or more over time and also get a sustainy secondary stats. You either go glass or compromise in the damage side.

You cant have condi do no damage, because not every class has infinite sustain. Either they get sustain from condi to survive a long time to see people drop, or condies have to burst hard.

You would have to nerf power dmg so that people dont drop super fast so we can see longer games where people are slowly wittled down.

What I was saying was condi shouldn't do burst dmg not should "do no dmg". As for the survivability part, even if you go glass we all know if you get the right build, have awareness and skill you can usually survive enough time against most opponents, you just have to play the game and play it well. Going glass is a double edge sword and involves higher risks than getting a more robust build. Taking into account that condi doesn't need right now other traits like precision and ferocity to boost it's dmg, it's pretty clear that the numbers you can pull with that amount of condi burst you see thrown around can come from builds that are useing vitality, healing power, toughness as complementary attributes, making them more tanky than any power burst build that needs to account also for precision and ferocity to be able pull out high numbers or burst dmg.

So no, condies don't need to burst hard, actually they don't need to burst at all by themselves, only in combination with direct attacks on glass condi builds (meaning no added vitality, toughness, healing power as complementary attributes.)

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

It's actually hilarious how both sides (condi OP! / power OP! ) are playing the other up, making claims that don't hold true and defending their own side with statements that, likewise, aren't true.

Both damage types have what you could call "degenerate" builds, as well as ones with fair bits of counterplay.

[Aza.2105]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Anet should change Burning back to how it was for PVP ONLY (and possibly WVW): Burn is stacked up to 9 times but NOT DAMAGE WISE, only duration wise.

I find the super high burn stacking frankly very absurd, lol. If this change were to go through then condi Engineer would make a possible come back.

On to your topic: it's easy. Very easy and effective. A noob running the meme Mirage build could even beat me with ease on many builds

Conditions were better before the big change. I agree.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Aza.2105 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Anet should change Burning back to how it was for PVP ONLY (and possibly WVW): Burn is stacked up to 9 times but NOT DAMAGE WISE, only duration wise.

I find the super high burn stacking frankly very absurd, lol. If this change were to go through then condi Engineer would make a possible come back.

On to your topic: it's easy. Very easy and effective. A noob running the meme Mirage build could even beat me with ease on many builds

Conditions were better before the big change. I agree.

Before the change they were near on completely irrelevant.

[Crab Fear.1624]

There are the five d's of condi play that make it so popular:

1. DoT
2. Dip
3. Duck
4. DiveAnd
5. DoT

[GoldenPants.1870]

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:They had to make condition spam like mirage, fb, and scourge so the newbs can see big numbers on the screen. Then they get happy and buy cash based skins and the next expansion with spammy kitten.

But even core necro can spam condis. :v

Which I am guilty of, cause I love core necro. And also core ranger.. And core guardian.. :v

Which all happens to be... Condi :sweat_smile:

[Master Ketsu.4569]

It's because anet doesn't seem to understand that making condi builds reliant on passives is not good PvP design.

condi builds wouldn't be a problem if so many condi stacks didn't come from unavoidable invisible traits and instant cast AoE abilities. Like getting poisoned every 5 seconds when getting hit by any skill. Where is the counterplay in that? What animation do you dodge to avoid it? The answer is: N/A. Or how about when every single skill is a 600 area circle and has less than 1/2 arm time? You are going to get hit with at least one, which then procs the passives because the majority of condi traits with ICDs are designed to all proc on the next succesful hit. Meaning that even if you know exactly what trait they are using, and you count down the seconds to the next proc and dodge that specific skill at that specific time...guess what? It will just proc on the next skill instead. And lets not forget the completely RNG passives that mes has, that randomly apply conditions on random attacks. monkaS

Imagine if this same dolty game design was applied to power builds. Like make a trait where your next skill to hit every 10 seconds has +1500 power and automatically does 20% of your targets health in bonus damage. People would end up just getting randomly 19k oneshot by a skill that normally only hits for little. So why is it OK on condi builds?

Lack of counterplay = lack of interactivity. The result is almost every condi build boils down to mindless spam.