What is with the obsession with Condi play?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:It's because anet doesn't seem to understand that making condi builds reliant on passives is not good PvP design.

condi builds wouldn't be a problem if so many condi stacks didn't come from unavoidable invisible traits and instant cast AoE abilities. Like getting poisoned every 5 seconds when getting hit by any skill. Where is the counterplay in that? What animation do you dodge to avoid it? The answer is: N/A. Or how about when every single skill is a 600 area circle and has less than 1/2 arm time? You are going to get hit with at least one, which then procs the passives because the majority of condi traits with ICDs are designed to all proc on the next succesful hit. Meaning that even if you know exactly what trait they are using, and you count down the seconds to the next proc and dodge that specific skill at that specific time...guess what? It will just proc on the next skill instead. And lets not forget the completely RNG passives that mes has, that randomly apply conditions on random attacks. monkaS

Imagine if this same dolty game design was applied to power builds. Like make a trait where your next skill to hit every 10 seconds has +1500 power and automatically does 20% of your targets health in bonus damage. People would end up just getting randomly 19k oneshot by a skill that normally only hits for little. So why is it OK on condi builds?

Lack of counterplay = lack of interactivity. The result is almost every condi build boils down to mindless spam.

Exactly. A prime example is deadly arts line. I did 1aa with pistol and the guy had like 3 stacks of poison because of traits. It's very easy to stack poisons with just aa alone because of traits and that's just thief alone.

[saerni.2584]

But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are always on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

[Sampson.2403]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:It's because anet doesn't seem to understand that making condi builds reliant on passives is not good PvP design.

condi builds wouldn't be a problem if so many condi stacks didn't come from unavoidable invisible traits and instant cast AoE abilities. Like getting poisoned every 5 seconds when getting hit by any skill. Where is the counterplay in that? What animation do you dodge to avoid it? The answer is: N/A. Or how about when every single skill is a 600 area circle and has less than 1/2 arm time? You are going to get hit with at least one, which then procs the passives because the majority of condi traits with ICDs are designed to all proc on the next succesful hit. Meaning that even if you know exactly what trait they are using, and you count down the seconds to the next proc and dodge that specific skill at that specific time...guess what? It will just proc on the next skill instead. And lets not forget the completely RNG passives that mes has, that randomly apply conditions on random attacks. monkaS

Imagine if this same dolty game design was applied to power builds. Like make a trait where your next skill to hit every 10 seconds has +1500 power and automatically does 20% of your targets health in bonus damage. People would end up just getting randomly 19k oneshot by a skill that normally only hits for little. So why is it OK on condi builds?

Lack of counterplay = lack of interactivity. The result is almost every condi build boils down to mindless spam.

I agree with this. Play a class like Revenant and you really need to time your attacks and sometimes cancel them midcast to land important hits and not blow CDs.

Play a class like condi mirage and you're really just spamming ambushes etc. The only thing that you're really timing is the mantra of distraction.

[Markri.9475]

@saerni.2584 said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are always on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

[saerni.2584]

@Markri.9475 said:

@saerni.2584 said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Damage modifiers are specific to power damage. For a condi specific modifier see Potent Poison.

[Falan.1839]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:It's because anet doesn't seem to understand that making condi builds reliant on passives is not good PvP design.

condi builds wouldn't be a problem if so many condi stacks didn't come from unavoidable invisible traits and instant cast AoE abilities. Like getting poisoned every 5 seconds when getting hit by any skill. Where is the counterplay in that? What animation do you dodge to avoid it? The answer is: N/A. Or how about when every single skill is a 600 area circle and has less than 1/2 arm time? You are going to get hit with at least one, which then procs the passives because the majority of condi traits with ICDs are designed to all proc on the next succesful hit. Meaning that even if you know exactly what trait they are using, and you count down the seconds to the next proc and dodge that specific skill at that specific time...guess what? It will just proc on the next skill instead. And lets not forget the completely RNG passives that mes has, that randomly apply conditions on random attacks. monkaS

Imagine if this same dolty game design was applied to power builds. Like make a trait where your next skill to hit every 10 seconds has +1500 power and automatically does 20% of your targets health in bonus damage. People would end up just getting randomly 19k oneshot by a skill that normally only hits for little. So why is it OK on condi builds?

Lack of counterplay = lack of interactivity. The result is almost every condi build boils down to mindless spam.

Pretty much that. Condi Thief is the best example with almost every condi coming from procs on random hits, dodges and instant casts, allowing for almost no counterplay unless you have insane cleanse. There is comparitvely little complaint about Scourge despite it being the main condi class for years and key part of pretty much every meta comp since PoF release, because since it was tuned down shortly after PoF release with the nerf on big shades, delay for shades etc it at least has a fairly long ramp up time.So a good part of the condi burst can be avoided when you're quick on your feet and don't get locked down. With lockdown CI mirage or Condi Daredevil that is not really the case.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Condi itself is not the problem it's how it's applied by most professions. See necro condi - that's how it was supposed to work. Slowly applying conditions for mounting pressure. Not burst ppl with 20 stacks of torment, 12 of confusion and whatever else that condi mesmers do.

To further this travesty, let's not forget that condi necro is still a necro - he has to fight to survive every second as he tries to build damage. Meanwhile said mesmers have access to invulnies, stealth, clones, phantasm and reliable escapes when things go south, while having insane burst.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Markri.9475 said:

@saerni.2584 said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@saerni.2584 said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

add confusion not attacking, and torment not moving to the list of counters.there is way more power builds and power in general is better, by switching my condi CI mirage to hybrid my dps went up, why? becouse insta damage > damage over time.

[sephiroth.4217]

Conditions to me have a visual image tied into the fight...

When someone is loading me up with conditions... All I think about is a really fat man working out on a really hot day until he has a sweat build up that he can fling around.. just a huge fatty pumba flinging his arm and flicking huge dirty sweat beads and diseases at me as I desperately look for a towel.

When I load up conditions on someone without condi cleanse, I become that fatty swinging sweat at people, grab someone and force thier face into my sweaty armpit screaming "GET A WHIFF BOY!..."..

Condi is gross.

[Markri.9475]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge. When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (wiki/Quick_time_event) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

[jessiestiles.9437]

I don't think most people want to play condi. When the patch came it was almost all power classes. But then it was double holo every second game so you needed condi to beat them. When the condi stops the holos come back. Its an endless loop. Just fix holo and everyone can play the class they want.

[Khalisto.5780]

how many condi builds are really meta, I mean, of 9 classes i think 3 are running condi builds right now. Necro, mesmer and elementalist. Thieves got reworked and you see some condi but most of them are still power. Warrior, engi, ranger, rev and guardian run power builds. So whats with the obessession with power builds.

I dont have like 2 charges invul to completely neglect power damage like shake it off does with condi, i can't turn power damage i take into boons like i do with condis

[jessiestiles.9437]

Condi is button spam with ranged weapons. Power is a mixture of range and melee. It's much more dynamic.

[Aza.2105]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Anet should change Burning back to how it was for PVP ONLY (and possibly WVW): Burn is stacked up to 9 times but NOT DAMAGE WISE, only duration wise.

I find the super high burn stacking frankly very absurd, lol. If this change were to go through then condi Engineer would make a possible come back.

On to your topic: it's easy. Very easy and effective. A noob running the meme Mirage build could even beat me with ease on many builds

Conditions were better before the big change. I agree.

Before the change they were near on completely irrelevant.

Thats why they were great.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge.

When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.

To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (

wiki/Quick_time_event

) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

"When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing."

No. If you did what you do against power (e.g., dodge, block, reflect, invuln), you don't need to do anything further because you will have avoided the condition attacks completely, just like any power attack. Every condi attack is an avoidable attack just like power (direct damage) attacks.

Condi attacks can be avoided in the first place just like direct attacks. On top of that, if you fail to avoid them in the first place you can still mitigate them with a number of other options. These options aren't necessary if you avoid them in the first place.

To use your quicktime event analogy, a direct damage event can only be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. A condi event can also be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. But if that fails, also with A, B, C. There are simply more options for dealing with conditions. They have more counterplay.

[Sovereign.1093]

well, it works. :P why not use it?

[Dahkeus.8243]

Condis wouldn't be nearly as obnoxious in this game if the attacks had better tells. I mean, you can outplay someone in a power build by watching their animations and avoiding the attacks, but with condis, almost everything has such a subtle movement or is part of constant spam (like mesmer clones) that countering those builds seems having the right counter build with cleanses/resistance than actually outplaying your enemy.

[saerni.2584]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge.

When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.

To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (

wiki/Quick_time_event

) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

"When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing."

No. If you did what you do against power (e.g., dodge, block, reflect, invuln), you don't need to do anything further because you will have avoided the condition attacks completely, just like any power attack. Every condi attack is an avoidable attack just like power (direct damage) attacks.

Condi attacks can be avoided in the first place just like direct attacks. On top of that, if you fail to avoid them in the first place you can still mitigate them with a number of other options. These options aren't necessary if you avoid them in the first place.

To use your quicktime event analogy, a direct damage event can only be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. A condi event can also be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. But if that fails, also with A, B, C. There are simply more options for dealing with conditions. They have more

Think of it this way. Power is mitigated uniquely by toughness. Condi is mitigated uniquely by cleanse.

Everything else mentioned, and protection/resistance as a pair mitigate both.

[Markri.9475]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge.

When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.

To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (

wiki/Quick_time_event

) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

"When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing."

No. If you did what you do against power (e.g., dodge, block, reflect, invuln), you don't need to do anything further because you will have avoided the condition attacks completely, just like any power attack. Every condi attack is an avoidable attack just like power (direct damage) attacks.

Condi attacks can be avoided in the first place just like direct attacks. On top of that, if you fail to avoid them in the first place you can still mitigate them with a number of other options. These options aren't necessary if you avoid them in the first place.

To use your quicktime event analogy, a direct damage event can only be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. A condi event can also be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. But if that fails, also with A, B, C. There are simply more options for dealing with conditions. They have more counterplay.

Doesn't make sense to me. If I could handle condi the same way with only abilities I avoid power, then why are some classes weak to condi, but strong against power? are the players just bad? atleast from what i have heard revenant is weak to condi, but strong in a powermeta , are they bad since power-avoiders is all they need to avoid condi anyways?

As for the analogy, I think we are of different opinion on how dangerous condipressure is, and how important to stay ahead of it by cleansing is. but we do agree that condi has more counterplay, im saying though that condi needs to be counterplayed using both power-avoiders and cleanses to not get overwhelmed by the pressure. For bad players, like me (gold3 :< ), that is "harder" to deal with.

[Vancho.8750]

Conditions are mostly ccs and the game is really fast paced so if you get hit with some you will eat more. Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged with hard to see casts (if they have any) since the whole animation consist of someone waving their hands in a funny way and most of the time they look the same. If they were applied with animation like Drop the Hammer with sound and visual queue would be better, instead of that you got grazed little bit by that circle under your feet and now you have cripple, poison, slow, chill and some torment and you can't move away from it cause you are limping.Condition CCs are stronger than hard CCs since conditions stack, while stuns overlap each other. Little bit of the control conditions on you are deadly and having them on top of damage ones sucks, and some double as both.Conditions feel bad cause they stop you from playing the game and you end up watching the UI more than the battle.

[Sigmoid.7082]

Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged

This is something that just isn't true. Just as many strike damage attacks can fall into the exact same catagories.

[jessiestiles.9437]

Power classes don't use long ranged weapons in melee because they aren't effective. Like you don't have a ranger standing next to you with a long bow. Yes you can go out of range but it's a slow way to fight when they have long range and shields too and you just lost the point. You have to get in close and cc-aoe-burst. But you can dodge out of range of melee weapons on point. You don't even need toughness.

Condi builds sit on point with autospam scepters so you can't dodge out of range. You can't go defensive and kite or tank like you would a power build. There isn't enough condi cleanse in the game and even if you could you'd have no dps. Maybe eles idk. Only thing you can do is pressure and kill quickly or leave.. or get spammed to death.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge.

When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.

To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (

wiki/Quick_time_event

) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

"When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing."

No. If you did what you do against power (e.g., dodge, block, reflect, invuln), you don't need to do anything further because you will have avoided the condition attacks completely, just like any power attack. Every condi attack is an avoidable attack just like power (direct damage) attacks.

Condi attacks can be avoided in the first place just like direct attacks. On top of that, if you fail to avoid them in the first place you can still mitigate them with a number of other options. These options aren't necessary if you avoid them in the first place.

To use your quicktime event analogy, a direct damage event can only be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. A condi event can also be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. But if that fails, also with A, B, C. There are simply more options for dealing with conditions. They have more counterplay.

Doesn't make sense to me. If I could handle condi the same way with only abilities I avoid power, then why are some classes weak to condi, but strong against power? are the players just bad? atleast from what i have heard revenant is weak to condi, but strong in a powermeta , are they bad since power-avoiders is all they need to avoid condi anyways?

As for the analogy, I think we are of different opinion on how dangerous condipressure is, and how important to stay ahead of it by cleansing is. but we do agree that condi has more counterplay, im saying though that condi needs to be counterplayed using both power-avoiders and cleanses to not get overwhelmed by the pressure. For bad players, like me (gold3 :< ), that is "harder" to deal with.

The popular Rev builds are generally susceptible to condi because they don't have a lot of condi mitigation like cleanse. It's like a build that doesn't spec much toughness and dies quickly to power DPS. It doesn't mean that one type of damage is necessarily stronger or more difficult to deal with than the other.

There are also group-cleanse/conversion abilities that uniquely mitigate condi in team fights. Another type of counterplay not available with direct/power damage.

Direct and condi attacks can both be avoided similarly. They each have their own means of mitigation when you do get hit (toughness for direct damage; cleanse, conversion, etc. for condi). The main difference is direct damage happens up front, all at once, while condi damage happens over time, during which you can mitigate it through a variety of means.

[Holgarf.6581]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Anet should change Burning back to how it was for PVP ONLY (and possibly WVW): Burn is stacked up to 9 times but NOT DAMAGE WISE, only duration wise.

I find the super high burn stacking frankly very absurd, lol. If this change were to go through then condi Engineer would make a possible come back.

On to your topic: it's easy. Very easy and effective. A noob running the meme Mirage build could even beat me with ease on many builds

Then burn becomes completely useless with condition cleanse.