What is with the obsession with Condi play?

[Substance E.4852]

Changing conditions into their own type of primary damage instead of keeping them the slow burn pressure damage they were in GW1 was one of Anet's biggest blunders and one they will never be able to undo or correct

[sephiroth.4217]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged

This is something that just isn't true. Just as many strike damage attacks can fall into the exact same catagories.

So you say its not true but then give an example of why it's true?

[Sigmoid.7082]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged

This is something that just isn't true. Just as many strike damage attacks can fall into the exact same catagories.

So you say its not true but then give an example of why it's true?

Why would I give an example of why it's true when it isn't? The person I quoted is clearly on about scourge being an issue but as always with complaints about conditions it's never related to the single class or the build ;every single condi build gets tared with the same brush.

There are even posts in this thread that say condi is a problem by generalising the changes to condi thief onto all condi classes/builds. They have a problem with condi thief but again all condi builds apparently are the problem.

[Aeolus.3615]

Actually I don’t know but when I play condi spam build I win most Combats.

If I ask me how, I must admit I’m being carried... sad but true.

Working as intended.

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

I dare everyone to spam their way to victory with a core condition Engineer.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge.

When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.

To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (

wiki/Quick_time_event

) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

"When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing."

No. If you did what you do against power (e.g., dodge, block, reflect, invuln), you don't need to do anything further because you will have avoided the condition attacks completely, just like any power attack. Every condi attack is an avoidable attack just like power (direct damage) attacks.

Condi attacks can be avoided in the first place just like direct attacks. On top of that, if you fail to avoid them in the first place you can still mitigate them with a number of other options. These options aren't necessary if you avoid them in the first place.

To use your quicktime event analogy, a direct damage event can only be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. A condi event can also be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. But if that fails, also with A, B, C. There are simply more options for dealing with conditions. They have more counterplay.

Except, this isn't correct.

Condi damage, for the most part, come either from stacking up on-hit/on-crit effects, or from pulsing AoE fields. Which power attacks do the same?

You don't mitigate condi damage in the same way you mitigate power damage. To suggest that you dodge condi in exactly the same way you dodge power is wrong.

If you're going against a high power damage build, be it herald, holo, soulbeast, core guard, deadeye, whatever, it is very clear that "to win, i must dodge skill x and skill y, i shall save my dodges/blocks for these".

If you're going against a high condi damage build, be it mirage, daredevil, scourge, weaver........ there's nothing exactly that you "need" to dodge. The only skill that you "need" to dodge from a condi-thief is steal. And that is an insta-cast teleport that you can't counter-play. Other than that, its all just chip-damage from sword #2, dodges, bow #4. You can't mitigate those kinds of attacks in the same way that you mitigate a soulbeast coming at you with a greatsword. Because that's a totally different game: dodge the maul.Same can be said for mirages, there's nothing you really "need" to dodge. Don't stand in chaos-storm, and try to smack the mirage down before the chip-chip-chip of clones downs you. Not the same at all as facing a s/s herald.Same for fire-weaver..... what do you need to dodge? There's Primordial Stance..... which goes on for 5 seconds, so even double-dodge won't stop it. And then there's a whoooooooole lot of chip attacks.

This has all been said before: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/871519/#Comment_871519

[Eleazar.9478]

Conditions would've been interesting if you could only specialize in one major and one minor, but due to the way balance has worked out either you give someone all the aids or it just gets cleansed

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:They had to make condition spam like mirage, fb, and scourge so the newbs can see big numbers on the screen. Then they get happy and buy cash based skins and the next expansion with spammy kitten.When you say 'Newbs', I think, 'Friendly and simple to new players.'

and to the post

Condis are great. Fire and forget.Reapply more fire and forget.Condis are much harder to avoid than obvious incoming melee damage swings.

From the safety of range, many classes can fire and forget condi onto one player or a group of players.This is not the case for melee. The melee has to get to you first. And while movement abilities might be powerful on melee classes, good condi classes also have movement abilities.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge.

When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.

To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (

wiki/Quick_time_event

) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

"When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing."

No. If you did what you do against power (e.g., dodge, block, reflect, invuln), you don't need to do anything further because you will have avoided the condition attacks completely, just like any power attack. Every condi attack is an avoidable attack just like power (direct damage) attacks.

Condi attacks can be avoided in the first place just like direct attacks. On top of that, if you fail to avoid them in the first place you can still mitigate them with a number of other options. These options aren't necessary if you avoid them in the first place.

To use your quicktime event analogy, a direct damage event can only be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. A condi event can also be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. But if that fails, also with A, B, C. There are simply more options for dealing with conditions. They have more counterplay.

Except, this isn't correct.

Condi damage, for the most part, come either from stacking up

on-hit/on-crit effects

, or from

pulsing AoE fields

.

All of which can be entirely avoided the same way as direct attacks. By physically moving out of the way, dodging, or where appropriate, blocking, reflecting, invulning, etc. People act like condi damage comes out of thin air. No, it comes from an attack, just like direct damage does. And they're initially avoidable the same ways.

If you're going against a high power damage build, be it herald, holo, soulbeast, core guard, deadeye, whatever, it is very clear that "to win, i must dodge skill x and skill y, i shall save my dodges/blocks for these".

If you're going against a high condi damage build, be it mirage, daredevil, scourge, weaver........ there's nothing exactly that you "need" to dodge. The only skill that you "need" to dodge from a condi-thief is steal. And that is an insta-cast teleport that you can't counter-play. Other than that, its all just chip-damage from sword #2, dodges, bow #4. You can't mitigate those kinds of attacks in the same way that you mitigate a soulbeast coming at you with a greatsword. Because that's a totally different game: dodge the maul.Same can be said for mirages, there's nothing you really "need" to dodge. Don't stand in chaos-storm, and try to smack the mirage down before the chip-chip-chip of clones downs you. Not the same at all as facing a s/s herald.Same for fire-weaver..... what do you need to dodge? There's Primordial Stance..... which goes on for 5 seconds, so even double-dodge won't stop it. And then there's a whoooooooole lot of chip attacks.

You're talking about differences in animations/telegraphs which is a different discussion from what tools are available to avoid and mitigate direct damage and condi damage. There are also "must-dodge" (or "should-dodge") attacks from viable condi builds as well. You hear people complaining about "condi burst" all the time. That would be something to dodge.

[saerni.2584]

There are so many complaints about oneshot power attacks with minimal tells or high DPS power attacks with large AoE. There are even memes.

It’s not like attacks that apply condi are uniquely AoE or hard to avoid.

And all attacks can be launched from Stealth. Which applies equally to all attacks.

And further because some people have suggested condi attacks have low animations. The biggest complaints are about scourge and Mirage. Both of which produce massive visual indications of their attacks. Those may be hard to avoid but so are power attacks from holo, warrior, thief, rev, guard, ranger. Many of which aren’t telegraphed or easily hidden by quickness or stealth.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge.

When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.

To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (

wiki/Quick_time_event

) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

"When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing."

No. If you did what you do against power (e.g., dodge, block, reflect, invuln), you don't need to do anything further because you will have avoided the condition attacks completely, just like any power attack. Every condi attack is an avoidable attack just like power (direct damage) attacks.

Condi attacks can be avoided in the first place just like direct attacks. On top of that, if you fail to avoid them in the first place you can still mitigate them with a number of other options. These options aren't necessary if you avoid them in the first place.

To use your quicktime event analogy, a direct damage event can only be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. A condi event can also be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. But if that fails, also with A, B, C. There are simply more options for dealing with conditions. They have more counterplay.

Except, this isn't correct.

Condi damage, for the most part, come either from stacking up

on-hit/on-crit effects

, or from

pulsing AoE fields

.

All of which can be entirely avoided the same way as direct attacks. By physically moving out of the way, dodging, or where appropriate, blocking, reflecting, invulning, etc. People act like condi damage comes out of thin air. No, it comes from an attack, just like direct damage does. And they're initially avoidable the same ways.

If you're going against a high power damage build, be it herald, holo, soulbeast, core guard, deadeye, whatever, it is very clear that "to win, i must dodge skill x and skill y, i shall save my dodges/blocks for these".

If you're going against a high condi damage build, be it mirage, daredevil, scourge, weaver........ there's nothing exactly that you "need" to dodge. The only skill that you "need" to dodge from a condi-thief is steal. And that is an insta-cast teleport that you can't counter-play. Other than that, its all just chip-damage from sword #2, dodges, bow #4. You can't mitigate those kinds of attacks in the same way that you mitigate a soulbeast coming at you with a greatsword. Because that's a totally different game: dodge the maul.Same can be said for mirages, there's nothing you really "need" to dodge. Don't stand in chaos-storm, and try to smack the mirage down before the chip-chip-chip of clones downs you. Not the same at all as facing a s/s herald.Same for fire-weaver..... what do you need to dodge? There's Primordial Stance..... which goes on for 5 seconds, so even double-dodge won't stop it. And then there's a whoooooooole lot of chip attacks.

You're talking about differences in animations/telegraphs which is a different discussion from what tools are available to avoid and mitigate direct damage and condi damage. There are also "must-dodge" (or "should-dodge") attacks from viable condi builds as well. You hear people complaining about "condi burst" all the time. That would be something to dodge.

When you get bursted down by a power spec, you take a mental note , come back next time with a less glassy spec....and the dmg you receive will be surely less and will give you more time to react to a sudden burst. When dealing with condi burst...you don't have that luxury of stat protection because there is no stat that defends against condi dmg.

In truth 4-5 stacks of burning at 1300+ condi dmg can quickly rip through the target in no time if left unchecked, now if that 4-5 stacks of burning is covered by chill/slow/bleeding/weakness/confusion/torment...gl

[Arheundel.6451]

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:They had to make condition spam like mirage, fb, and scourge so the newbs can see big numbers on the screen. Then they get happy and buy cash based skins and the next expansion with spammy kitten.When you say 'Newbs', I think, 'Friendly and simple to new players.'

and to the post

Condis are great. Fire and forget.Reapply more fire and forget.Condis are much harder to avoid than obvious incoming melee damage swings.

From the safety of range, many classes can fire and forget condi onto one player or a group of players.This is not the case for melee. The melee has to get to you first. And while movement abilities might be powerful on melee classes, good condi classes also have movement abilities.

These are issues that condi players consciously ignore

[Arheundel.6451]

@Vancho.8750 said:Conditions are mostly ccs and the game is really fast paced so if you get hit with some you will eat more. Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged with hard to see casts (if they have any) since the whole animation consist of someone waving their hands in a funny way and most of the time they look the same. If they were applied with animation like Drop the Hammer with sound and visual queue would be better, instead of that you got grazed little bit by that circle under your feet and now you have cripple, poison, slow, chill and some torment and you can't move away from it cause you are limping.Condition CCs are stronger than hard CCs since conditions stack, while stuns overlap each other. Little bit of the control conditions on you are deadly and having them on top of damage ones sucks, and some double as both.Conditions feel bad cause they stop you from playing the game and you end up watching the UI more than the battle.

QFT !

[saerni.2584]

“When dealing with condi burst...you don't have that luxury of stat protection because there is no stat that defends against condi dmg.”

But there is condi cleanse which acts as a unique mitigation mechanic like toughness does for power.

Cleanse can be active or passive (much like toughness can be temporarily boosted by certain utilities or traits and also is a passive feature of gear/amulets).

[saerni.2584]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:They had to make condition spam like mirage, fb, and scourge so the newbs can see big numbers on the screen. Then they get happy and buy cash based skins and the next expansion with spammy kitten.When you say 'Newbs', I think, 'Friendly and simple to new players.'

and to the post

Condis are great. Fire and forget.Reapply more fire and forget.Condis are much harder to avoid than obvious incoming melee damage swings.

From the safety of range, many classes can fire and forget condi onto one player or a group of players.This is not the case for melee. The melee has to get to you first. And while movement abilities might be powerful on melee classes, good condi classes also have movement abilities.

These are issues that condi players consciously ignore

Power damage can oneshot from range. Your point?

[Tayga.3192]

@saerni.2584 said:“When dealing with condi burst...you don't have that luxury of stat protection because there is no stat that defends against condi dmg.”

But there is condi cleanse which acts as a unique mitigation mechanic like toughness does for power.

Cleanse can be active or passive (much like toughness can be temporarily boosted by certain utilities or traits and also is a passive feature of gear/amulets).

Ssh they don't know vitality

[Sigmoid.7082]

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:They had to make condition spam like mirage, fb, and scourge so the newbs can see big numbers on the screen. Then they get happy and buy cash based skins and the next expansion with spammy kitten.When you say 'Newbs', I think, 'Friendly and simple to new players.'

and to the post

Condis are great. Fire and forget.Reapply more fire and forget.Condis are much harder to avoid than obvious incoming melee damage swings.

From the safety of range, many classes can fire and forget condi onto one player or a group of players.This is not the case for melee. The melee has to get to you first. And while movement abilities might be powerful on melee classes, good condi classes also have movement abilities.

Why are you making some sort of distinction that strike damage is purely melee and condi damage is purely ranged?

[Arheundel.6451]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:They had to make condition spam like mirage, fb, and scourge so the newbs can see big numbers on the screen. Then they get happy and buy cash based skins and the next expansion with spammy kitten.When you say 'Newbs', I think, 'Friendly and simple to new players.'

and to the post

Condis are great. Fire and forget.Reapply more fire and forget.Condis are much harder to avoid than obvious incoming melee damage swings.

From the safety of range, many classes can fire and forget condi onto one player or a group of players.This is not the case for melee. The melee has to get to you first. And while movement abilities might be powerful on melee classes, good condi classes also have movement abilities.

These are issues that condi players consciously ignore

Power damage can oneshot from range. Your point?

The power dmg spec is glass while the condi build is not?

[Ragnar.4257]

@"saerni.2584" said:There are so many complaints about oneshot power attacks with minimal tells or high DPS power attacks with large AoE. There are even memes.

Yes, and they've been receiving pretty hefty nerfs. Herald and Soulbeast both took big reductions to their DPS last patch. Holo's quickness got deleted. Deadeye had unblockable removed. Core-hammer-guardian straight up deleted. Berserker got buffed...... and then almost instantly nerfed back down.

Ahhh, but I forget, its only mesmer that ever gets nerfed right? Because they're bullied and everyone are meanies :s

You've also completely mis-understood the point about AoE. The key word was "pulsing". Nobody said power attacks don't do AoE. Its that they don't leave PULSING aoe-fields that linger over the point for 5+ seconds.

@"saerni.2584" said:It’s not like attacks that apply condi are uniquely AoE or hard to avoid.

And all attacks can be launched from Stealth. Which applies equally to all attacks.

And further because some people have suggested condi attacks have low animations. The biggest complaints are about scourge and Mirage. Both of which produce massive visual indications of their attacks. Those may be hard to avoid but so are power attacks from holo, warrior, thief, rev, guard, ranger. Many of which aren’t telegraphed or easily hidden by quickness or stealth.

It's not really about whether or not they're telegraphed. Its that there's just so many of them, with none of them particularly hurting much, but the sum-total hurting alot.

Simple example, take hammer-guardian. There's 1 attack you have to dodge, on a 6 second cooldown. If you're disciplined with your dodges, you can basically totally negate the hammer damage.

Whereas, take shortbow-ranger. (Yes, yes, I know it isn't a viable build at the moment, but its a good example to highlight the difference). Shortbow-ranger applies damage by going 11111111111 and racking up bleeds, combining that with on-crit trait, and sharpening-stones (bleed on hit) and then maybe throwing out some traps (pulsing AoE fields).

What do you dodge from the ranger? Sure, you can dodge a few of the hits, in the same way you dodge the hammer-guardian. But its not nearly as effective. Dodging a single-hit in this case is basically meaningless, you almost might as well have not bothered dodging.

I'm not suggesting that you can't "see" the attacks. What I'm suggesting is that because it's a constant bombardment, rather than 1 or 2 key skills every 5-10 seconds, dodging is not nearly as effective.

Or lets look at necro.

Reaper; dodge axe #2, shroud #4 & #5, and chilled to the bone. Simple game-plan, if you screw up you only got yourself to blame.Scourge; dodge......... all of it?

To state it even more plainly:

A build that does a single 10k damage attack once every 10 seconds, can be easily negated with dodge (provided it isn't insta-cast).A build that does 1k damage every second, can NOT be easily negated with dodge. You can dodge maybe 2-3k of the damage, but the rest will come through.

They both do the same amount of damage, but they cannot be mitigated in the same way. Do you get it yet?

[Jayce.5632]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:They had to make condition spam like mirage, fb, and scourge so the newbs can see big numbers on the screen. Then they get happy and buy cash based skins and the next expansion with spammy kitten.When you say 'Newbs', I think, 'Friendly and simple to new players.'

and to the post

Condis are great. Fire and forget.Reapply more fire and forget.Condis are much harder to avoid than obvious incoming melee damage swings.

From the safety of range, many classes can fire and forget condi onto one player or a group of players.This is not the case for melee. The melee has to get to you first. And while movement abilities might be powerful on melee classes, good condi classes also have movement abilities.

These are issues that condi players consciously ignore

Power damage can oneshot from range. Your point?

The power dmg spec is

glass

while the condi build is not?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[babazhook.6805]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:There are so many complaints about oneshot power attacks with minimal tells or high DPS power attacks with large AoE. There are even memes.

Yes, and they've been receiving pretty hefty nerfs. Herald and Soulbeast both took big reductions to their DPS last patch. Holo's quickness got deleted. Deadeye had unblockable removed. Core-hammer-guardian straight up deleted. Berserker got buffed...... and then almost instantly nerfed back down.

Ahhh, but I forget, its

only

mesmer that ever gets nerfed right? Because they're bullied and everyone are meanies :s

You've also completely mis-understood the point about AoE. The key word was "pulsing". Nobody said power attacks don't do AoE. Its that they don't leave PULSING aoe-fields that linger over the point for 5+ seconds.

@"saerni.2584" said:It’s not like attacks that apply condi are uniquely AoE or hard to avoid.

And all attacks can be launched from Stealth. Which applies equally to all attacks.

And further because some people have suggested condi attacks have low animations. The biggest complaints are about scourge and Mirage. Both of which produce massive visual indications of their attacks. Those may be hard to avoid but so are power attacks from holo, warrior, thief, rev, guard, ranger. Many of which aren’t telegraphed or easily hidden by quickness or stealth.

It's not really about whether or not they're telegraphed. Its that there's just so many of them, with none of them particularly hurting much, but the sum-total hurting alot.

Simple example, take hammer-guardian. There's 1 attack you have to dodge, on a 6 second cooldown. If you're disciplined with your dodges, you can basically totally negate the hammer damage.

Whereas, take shortbow-ranger. (Yes, yes, I know it isn't a viable build at the moment, but its a good example to highlight the difference). Shortbow-ranger applies damage by going 11111111111 and racking up bleeds, combining that with on-crit trait, and sharpening-stones (bleed on hit) and then maybe throwing out some traps (pulsing AoE fields).

What do you dodge from the ranger? Sure, you can dodge a few of the hits, in the same way you dodge the hammer-guardian. But its not

nearly

as effective. Dodging a single-hit in this case is basically meaningless, you almost might as well have not bothered dodging.

I'm not suggesting that you can't "see" the attacks. What I'm suggesting is that because it's a constant bombardment, rather than 1 or 2 key skills every 5-10 seconds, dodging is not nearly as effective.

Or lets look at necro.

Reaper; dodge axe #2, shroud #4 & #5, and chilled to the bone. Simple game-plan, if you screw up you only got yourself to blame.Scourge; dodge......... all of it?

To state it even more plainly:

A build that does a single 10k damage attack once every 10 seconds, can be easily negated with dodge (provided it isn't insta-cast).A build that does 1k damage every second, can NOT be easily negated with dodge. You can dodge maybe 2-3k of the damage, but the rest will come through.

They both do the same amount of damage, but they cannot be mitigated in the same way. Do you get it yet?

You have the same number of dodges and means of avoiding an attack against a condition spec or against a power spec. That is more important to dodge that one singular attack from a Power build is the reason people with those dodges and blocks come to the boards to complain each time they face a condition build. If a Condition build just has a bunch of little attacks that add up, then dodge or block some of those attacks! What are you saving your dodges for? If you dodge/block two in five of those "little attacks" you just cut down 40 percent potential damage. The Condition builds tick hard due to accumulated conditions .

You are not supposed to dodge everything. If you could no one could ever do any damage. What you do not dodge you then cleanse. When compared to Power builds, if you fail to dodge one of those big attacks from a power build, you can be instant downed. With Conditions failing to dodge some of this "little attacks that add up" gives you plenty of ways and means of getting back into the fight.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Markri.9475 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:But in that context three stacks of poison for 3 seconds every five seconds isn’t going to come close to killing you. There are other abilities that are hitting you doing the bulk of the damage.

There are plenty of power damage traits that are

always

on. And many of them transform power attacks in ways that turn even auto attacks into deadly damage.

That’s why I think it’s a bit misleading to blame auto condi application traits when power has many “passive” traits that are always on. A comparison would be possible if Executioner (+20% below 50% target HP) only applied to three attacks with a 10 second cooldown, but that just isn’t the case. Power trait passives are all over the game leading to the meme “just dodge” in response to images of certain builds criting for 4-5k on every ability and up to 30k on “telegraphed” hits.

This isn’t somehow only applicable to “condi builds.”

More on the general topic:

Condi builds are viable in two very different ways. First, high application with low reapplication. This is the “spike” that most would associate with mesmer and necro builds.

Second, lower application with higher reapplication. This type will overwhelm cleanse if the target doesn’t avoid being consistently hit. Fewer builds of this type are viable because it takes time for this kind to work and time to kill is so low that sticking around in a fight long enough for this to work is generally not a good trade off from power or condi damage spike.

When it comes to the “OP” condi builds they have a lot of AoE condi application that makes it hard to avoid being constantly hit with more attacks that apply condi. Scourge with multi AoE that apply cripple. CI Mirage with multi dazes and immobilizes ensuring more condi loading skills/clones hit. That those builds are effective with condi damage doesn’t make condi OP. It just means those particular crowd control aspects make fighting those builds a struggle.

If I'm not misstaken ; Executioner isn't a power-specific trait. It works for both as it's Damage mod. Other trait in that slot is just so much stronger for condi.To me the issue is that dodge is the mechanic that counters Power, players are taught to dodge through out the game. However the mechanic of condi- cleansing, I'll call it condi-management, isn't taught until you enter PvP. Bad players (myself included) might know howto dodge, but managing condis and doing my damage is harder.

There are more players who know howto dodge, than there are players who know howto do condi-management.

Condi attacks are also dodgeable (and blockable, and reflectable). They're also cleanseable, resistable, and negated by invulnerability if you fail with any of the first options.

Which type of attacks have more counterplay between direct (power) and condition?

Condi has more counterplay. And that is part of my point. When I fight against power, I need to dodge.

When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing.

To try put it into an example;If a quicktime event (

wiki/Quick_time_event

) type of game used buttons "X, Y & Z", and we consider these to be counterplays to what the game does. Then increasing the buttons to "x, y , z , a, b, c" puts more pressure on the player to deal with.I assume that better players accepts the extra "hoops" to jump through and have no issue with it.Imagine if they gave the thief trait Impacting Distruption (Pulmonary Impact) to spellbreaker, you'd have the opportunity to counterplay by stowing your casts if you are about to get stunned. It wouldn't make it easier though. (It would be broken, but it would have counterplay).

"When I fight against condi I need to do what I do against power, but also condi cleansing."

No. If you did what you do against power (e.g., dodge, block, reflect, invuln), you don't need to do anything further because you will have avoided the condition attacks completely, just like any power attack. Every condi attack is an avoidable attack just like power (direct damage) attacks.

Condi attacks can be avoided in the first place just like direct attacks. On top of that, if you fail to avoid them in the first place you can still mitigate them with a number of other options. These options aren't necessary if you avoid them in the first place.

To use your quicktime event analogy, a direct damage event can only be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. A condi event can also be passed by pressing X, Y, Z. But if that fails, also with A, B, C. There are simply more options for dealing with conditions. They have more counterplay.

Except, this isn't correct.

Condi damage, for the most part, come either from stacking up

on-hit/on-crit effects

, or from

pulsing AoE fields

.

All of which can be entirely avoided the same way as direct attacks. By physically moving out of the way, dodging, or where appropriate, blocking, reflecting, invulning, etc. People act like condi damage comes out of thin air. No, it comes from an attack, just like direct damage does. And they're initially avoidable the same ways.

If you're going against a high power damage build, be it herald, holo, soulbeast, core guard, deadeye, whatever, it is very clear that "to win, i must dodge skill x and skill y, i shall save my dodges/blocks for these".

If you're going against a high condi damage build, be it mirage, daredevil, scourge, weaver........ there's nothing exactly that you "need" to dodge. The only skill that you "need" to dodge from a condi-thief is steal. And that is an insta-cast teleport that you can't counter-play. Other than that, its all just chip-damage from sword #2, dodges, bow #4. You can't mitigate those kinds of attacks in the same way that you mitigate a soulbeast coming at you with a greatsword. Because that's a totally different game: dodge the maul.Same can be said for mirages, there's nothing you really "need" to dodge. Don't stand in chaos-storm, and try to smack the mirage down before the chip-chip-chip of clones downs you. Not the same at all as facing a s/s herald.Same for fire-weaver..... what do you need to dodge? There's Primordial Stance..... which goes on for 5 seconds, so even double-dodge won't stop it. And then there's a whoooooooole lot of chip attacks.

You're talking about differences in animations/telegraphs which is a different discussion from what tools are available to avoid and mitigate direct damage and condi damage. There are also "must-dodge" (or "should-dodge") attacks from viable condi builds as well. You hear people complaining about "condi burst" all the time. That would be something to dodge.

When you get bursted down by a power spec, you take a mental note , come back next time with a less glassy spec....

and the dmg you receive will be surely less

and will give you more time to react to a sudden burst. When dealing with condi burst...you don't have that luxury of stat protection because there is no stat that defends against condi dmg.

Indeed. I said elsewhere that people tend to dislike condi because there's an additional layer of learning. But that isn't a problem with the game design. What they don't realize is, a condi burst actually affords them an extra chance to mitigate their mistake of not avoiding it in the first place, whereas an equivalent direct damage burst generally does not. Better to be dead in two seconds for failing to avoid a power burst or better to have several more seconds to pop a cleanse, conversion, or something else, and survive?

In truth 4-5 stacks of burning at 1300+ condi dmg can quickly rip through the target in no time if left unchecked, now if that 4-5 stacks of burning is covered by chill/slow/bleeding/weakness/confusion/torment...gl

That's why these exist:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_removal

[kittyfur.6459]

@Smoosh.2718 said:To me, all Condi damage has done is ruin the fun of pvp and promoted the ability to spam skills till the other dies. No longer do we find that fun duel scenario where you have to time your attacks, time your fake attacks to bait dodges.

Now all you get is 6 stacks of burn followed by cripple, chill imobo, confusion and torment. Stackable to stupid levels killing you in seconds.It's not fun and has totally ruined all enjoyment of pvp for me. Managed to see a nice 19 hit 59k burn on myself.

Condi damage in PvP needs a heavy hit and should never have been pushed in the direction it has been.Rather than these damage tune ups we keep getting in pvp... how about an across board damage nerf to all. along with a healing nerf.

As for condi keep that as a PvE thing, i dont believe it should be in a PvP scenario, but if it is, damage numbers from condi need to be lower than they are and not stackable to what they are as well.

This is a ridiculous complain. EVERYONE has access to ridiculous amounts of condition cleansing these days. Condi builds of every sort are INEFFECTIVE against half the toons in the game. That's not OP in the slightest.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged

This is something that just isn't true. Just as many strike damage attacks can fall into the exact same catagories.

So you say its not true but then give an example of why it's true?

Why would I give an example of why it's true when it isn't?

Because then you would actual be defending your point of view.

There were 3 condi classes in the META, 2 of which are the same class and have been top of the META food chain for quite some time.What else is up there? One class that throws out mass boons, great cleanse and heals. One class that puts out great dmg and is immune to the Crowd Control Condis that are stacked on with condis. And a class that had so much burst, it was recently nerfed. Now there is a new kid in town that is a combination of great power dmg, mass boons and good crowd control. Hmm, I wonder why all those classes are meta? Because Scouge/FB are that strong.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:I dare everyone to spam their way to victory with a core condition Engineer.

Challenge accepted.