Sigmoid.7082 Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 @EnderzShadow.2506 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@sephiroth.4217 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged This is something that just isn't true. Just as many strike damage attacks can fall into the exact same catagories. So you say its not true but then give an example of why it's true?Why would I give an example of why it's true when it isn't? Because then you would actual be defending your point of view.There were 3 condi classes in the META, 2 of which are the same class and have been top of the META food chain for quite some time.What else is up there? One class that throws out mass boons, great cleanse and heals. One class that puts out great dmg and is immune to the Crowd Control Condis that are stacked on with condis. And a class that had so much burst, it was recently nerfed. Now there is a new kid in town that is a combination of great power dmg, mass boons and good crowd control. Hmm, I wonder why all those classes are meta? Because Scouge/FB are that strong.There is no need for me to defend the false nature of the generalisation that most conditions come from instant casts or some pulsing fields. It's not a point that needs defending when the original statement is very clearly untrue of all conditions. If you have a problem with condi scourge, say so. If you have a problem with condi mirage ,say so. If you have a problem with condi ele, say so. If you have a problem with condi thief, say so. EtcMy point is people keep conflating issues with very particular builds with issues with the entire system and damage type. Again, for some reason when a power build is OP fault lies entirely with that build. When a condi build is strong the entire damage type is broken ? :/ There is some sort of bias / double standard. If conditions were really as strong as some people make them out to be everyone would be using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 @Sigmoid.7082 said:@EnderzShadow.2506 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@sephiroth.4217 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged This is something that just isn't true. Just as many strike damage attacks can fall into the exact same catagories. So you say its not true but then give an example of why it's true?Why would I give an example of why it's true when it isn't? Because then you would actual be defending your point of view.There were 3 condi classes in the META, 2 of which are the same class and have been top of the META food chain for quite some time.What else is up there? One class that throws out mass boons, great cleanse and heals. One class that puts out great dmg and is immune to the Crowd Control Condis that are stacked on with condis. And a class that had so much burst, it was recently nerfed. Now there is a new kid in town that is a combination of great power dmg, mass boons and good crowd control. Hmm, I wonder why all those classes are meta? Because Scouge/FB are that strong.There is no need for me to defend the false nature of the generalisation that most conditions come from instant casts or some pulsing fields. It's not a point that needs defending when the original statement is very clearly untrue of all conditions. If you have a problem with condi scourge, say so. If you have a problem with condi mirage ,say so. If you have a problem with condi ele, say so. If you have a problem with condi thief, say so. EtcMy point is people keep conflating issues with very particular builds with issues with the entire system and damage type. Again, for some reason when a power build is OP fault lies entirely with that build. When a condi build is strong the entire damage type is broken ? :/ There is some sort of bias / double standard. If conditions were really as strong as some people make them out to be everyone would be using them. This one hundred percent. Just look at the Forum threads regarding any power build and the vast majority are directed towards a single power spec , be it Ranger or Warrior, Revenant or Engineer with various subclasses. Those threads then detail very specific skills that are deemed OP.With Conditions, it topics such as this that get started. What this shows is where people might be familiar with what is OP ina given power spec, they have no clue as to what is OP in a given Condition spec. They just do not understand the builds or how to match up against them so they all lumped together as one with the focus being thing slike "They only need one attribute , or "Their attacks can not be avoided" neither of which are true . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 @babazhook.6805 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@EnderzShadow.2506 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@sephiroth.4217 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:Most of them come from instant casts or large pulsing AOEs and most skills that apply conditions are ranged This is something that just isn't true. Just as many strike damage attacks can fall into the exact same catagories. So you say its not true but then give an example of why it's true?Why would I give an example of why it's true when it isn't? Because then you would actual be defending your point of view.There were 3 condi classes in the META, 2 of which are the same class and have been top of the META food chain for quite some time.What else is up there? One class that throws out mass boons, great cleanse and heals. One class that puts out great dmg and is immune to the Crowd Control Condis that are stacked on with condis. And a class that had so much burst, it was recently nerfed. Now there is a new kid in town that is a combination of great power dmg, mass boons and good crowd control. Hmm, I wonder why all those classes are meta? Because Scouge/FB are that strong.There is no need for me to defend the false nature of the generalisation that most conditions come from instant casts or some pulsing fields. It's not a point that needs defending when the original statement is very clearly untrue of all conditions. If you have a problem with condi scourge, say so. If you have a problem with condi mirage ,say so. If you have a problem with condi ele, say so. If you have a problem with condi thief, say so. EtcMy point is people keep conflating issues with very particular builds with issues with the entire system and damage type. Again, for some reason when a power build is OP fault lies entirely with that build. When a condi build is strong the entire damage type is broken ? :/ There is some sort of bias / double standard. If conditions were really as strong as some people make them out to be everyone would be using them. This one hundred percent. Just look at the Forum threads regarding any power build and the vast majority are directed towards a single power spec , be it Ranger or Warrior, Revenant or Engineer with various subclasses. Those threads then detail very specific skills that are deemed OP.With Conditions, it topics such as this that get started. What this shows is where people might be familiar with what is OP ina given power spec, they have no clue as to what is OP in a given Condition spec. They just do not understand the builds or how to match up against them so they all lumped together as one with the focus being thing slike "They only need one attribute , or "Their attacks can not be avoided" neither of which are true .Would you guys mind unlinking me from your conversation?My post was only there because I found it funny someone said its false but then gave an example of why its true. "Thats false, just as many..." - I was laughing at the contradiction.As interesting as it is to read "they this and they that and they this" and a lot of speaking on others behalf, I would appreciate it.Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Crab Fear.1624 said:@coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Because its what it lends it self to by design. Condi reaper was pretty much killed so it could live. Besides this is a silly questions. Its like asking why reapers play power instead of condi. Plus look at WvW. Why are most scourges there power/hybrid? Could it be that in zerg play cleanse is so abundant that condi is weak its near on irrelevant and its the only way to eek some damage out? But conditions are so strong why would they?I mean..I could just as easily ask why do people play power holo instead of condi holo? Conditions are so strong it would make sense to right?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Well according to Anet all necro specs actually see decent representation. In soloQ i would hedge my bets on people playing reaper and core necro over scourge since they are far more durable and less reliant on support.When it comes to more organised play its because not only does it corrupt more boons on average but it is also easier to support while proving more support itself. Plus by design scourge is pretty strong as a class designed around area control in a game more thats about area contol...but it must be because conditions are so strong, am i right?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?Because condi mirage is/was broken not because conditions are. If power mirage was broken you would see threads about it and it only instead of threads about power damage being too high in general. I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be?I think you're reaching pretty hard for the reason for these things to be happening to be due to conditions being OP instead of the actual reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Sigmoid.7082 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Because its what it lends it self to by design. Condi reaper was pretty much killed so it could live. Besides this is a silly questions. Its like asking why reapers play power instead of condi. Plus look at WvW. Why are most scourges there power/hybrid? Could it be that in zerg play cleanse is so abundant that condi is weak its near on irrelevant and its the only way to eek some damage out? But conditions are so strong why would they?I mean..I could just as easily ask why do people play power holo instead of condi holo? Conditions are so strong it would make sense to right?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Well according to Anet all necro specs actually see decent representation. In soloQ i would hedge my bets on people playing reaper and core necro over scourge since they are far more durable and less reliant on support.When it comes to more organised play its because not only does it corrupt more boons on average but it is also easier to support while proving more support itself. Plus by design scourge is pretty strong as a class designed around area control in a game more thats about area contol...but it must be because conditions are so strong, am i right?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?Because condi mirage is/was broken not because conditions are. If power mirage was broken you would see threads about it and it only instead of threads about power damage being too high in general. I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be?I think you're reaching pretty hard for the reason for these things to be happening to be due to conditions being OP instead of the actual reasons.AOE Condi doing equal or more damage even if over time.You can do more damage to players you are not even targeting.These traits that make those guys a burst have no where near the telegraph as a burst skill like maul, or practically any other big power hit.DoT and run has always been seen as cheeze.But in GW2 you can BoT and run.Why are the Condi forms always on bots?It is popular because it is easy, forgiving, and effective.That is the reason. I don't have to reach because I have already grasped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Crab Fear.1624 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Because its what it lends it self to by design. Condi reaper was pretty much killed so it could live. Besides this is a silly questions. Its like asking why reapers play power instead of condi. Plus look at WvW. Why are most scourges there power/hybrid? Could it be that in zerg play cleanse is so abundant that condi is weak its near on irrelevant and its the only way to eek some damage out? But conditions are so strong why would they?I mean..I could just as easily ask why do people play power holo instead of condi holo? Conditions are so strong it would make sense to right?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Well according to Anet all necro specs actually see decent representation. In soloQ i would hedge my bets on people playing reaper and core necro over scourge since they are far more durable and less reliant on support.When it comes to more organised play its because not only does it corrupt more boons on average but it is also easier to support while proving more support itself. Plus by design scourge is pretty strong as a class designed around area control in a game more thats about area contol...but it must be because conditions are so strong, am i right?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?Because condi mirage is/was broken not because conditions are. If power mirage was broken you would see threads about it and it only instead of threads about power damage being too high in general. I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be?I think you're reaching pretty hard for the reason for these things to be happening to be due to conditions being OP instead of the actual reasons.AOE Condi doing equal or more damage even if over time.Conditions have a higher damage cap because of cleanse. I could hit someone with 15 stacks of burning yet do 0 damage if they are fast enough. Or if a trait auto removes them. There are times and classes that can walk into a team fight and end it near instantly with aoe power damage. What about those? Why are they not a problem or why haven't they been spoken about? Wait..they have but people reference the exact skill and class instead of making some bogus arguments that all power damage is OP.You can do more damage to players you are not even targeting.Literally 95% of the skills in the game and aoe and you do incidental damage to everyone. You can kill people without targeting anyone in particular in this game. Damage type isn't the factor here.These traits that make those guys a burst have no where near the telegraph as a burst skill like maul, or practically any other big power hit.They do. People just don't know what to avoid because the game doesn't provide decent enough feedback for people to learn. "I died to Worldly Impack. I was fighting 1 ranger and it killed me. Better avoid it" compared to "I died to burning. I have no idea what skills caused this or from how many players this was from".DoT and run has always been seen as cheeze.No different to hitting someone with strike damage and kiting them as they chase you. People just don't like being kited, regardless of damage type since they feel they are losing without being able to retaliate. But in GW2 you can BoT and run.Why are the Condi forms always on bots?It is popular because it is easy, forgiving, and effective.No, the builds may be but not the damage type. Again if all conditions are the same where are my condi SB, condi Holo,condi Slb etc etc. You're doing the classic thing of saying condi is OP because [insert build using condi effectively] is OP/strong. Look directly at past complaints: Deaths Judgement, Full Counter, Sic Em SlB, Power Meser, Glint Rev. Each has has had threads directly about why they are strong, the skills /traits that make them strong and why they need toning down. Very seldom would you hear "all power damage is OP because a deadeye killed me with DJ / rev downed me with Shackling Wave/ etc"That is the reason. I don't have to reach because I have already grasped.And you have ended up with a hand of air and straws. 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coro.3176 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Also, especially in pvp, DoT and run is actually not a good thing.That time it takes for condi damage to tick (sometimes up to 15 seconds) is:time you're not spending capping or holding the pointtime your opponent is alive and able to kill you firsttime for your opponent to get support from alliestime for your opponent's cooldowns to reset and give them a heal or cleanseMeanwhile, power damage is just instant. You land the skill, your opponent is dead. You cap/hold the point. No waiting, no uncertainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Crab Fear.1624 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Because its what it lends it self to by design. Condi reaper was pretty much killed so it could live. Besides this is a silly questions. Its like asking why reapers play power instead of condi. Plus look at WvW. Why are most scourges there power/hybrid? Could it be that in zerg play cleanse is so abundant that condi is weak its near on irrelevant and its the only way to eek some damage out? But conditions are so strong why would they?I mean..I could just as easily ask why do people play power holo instead of condi holo? Conditions are so strong it would make sense to right?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Well according to Anet all necro specs actually see decent representation. In soloQ i would hedge my bets on people playing reaper and core necro over scourge since they are far more durable and less reliant on support.When it comes to more organised play its because not only does it corrupt more boons on average but it is also easier to support while proving more support itself. Plus by design scourge is pretty strong as a class designed around area control in a game more thats about area contol...but it must be because conditions are so strong, am i right?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?Because condi mirage is/was broken not because conditions are. If power mirage was broken you would see threads about it and it only instead of threads about power damage being too high in general. I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be?I think you're reaching pretty hard for the reason for these things to be happening to be due to conditions being OP instead of the actual reasons.Why are the Condi forms always on bots?I've seen warrior, guardian, and revenant bots. They definitely were not condi builds.It is popular because it is easy, forgiving, and effective.Since you seem keen on generalizing, answer this: of all 27 specs in the game, how many have a viable condi build in Conquest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgerrule.8739 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Physical damage can be negated blocked and completely reflected. Conditions can only be transferred or cured Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @dodgerrule.8739 said:Physical damage can be negated blocked and completely reflected. Conditions can only be transferred or curedSo you can't block,negate, or reflect the actual attack that applies the conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgerrule.8739 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 You can but not with aoes as much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @dodgerrule.8739 said:You can but not with aoes as muchSo then what is stopping you from applying the same logic to strike damage? I mean most , if not, all damage in game is AoE of some kind. So by your standard I shouldn't be able to block, negate , or reflect it. Nothing about an attack being AoE makes it so you can't block, negate, or reflect it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Because its what it lends it self to by design. Condi reaper was pretty much killed so it could live. Besides this is a silly questions. Its like asking why reapers play power instead of condi. Plus look at WvW. Why are most scourges there power/hybrid? Could it be that in zerg play cleanse is so abundant that condi is weak its near on irrelevant and its the only way to eek some damage out? But conditions are so strong why would they?I mean..I could just as easily ask why do people play power holo instead of condi holo? Conditions are so strong it would make sense to right?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Well according to Anet all necro specs actually see decent representation. In soloQ i would hedge my bets on people playing reaper and core necro over scourge since they are far more durable and less reliant on support.When it comes to more organised play its because not only does it corrupt more boons on average but it is also easier to support while proving more support itself. Plus by design scourge is pretty strong as a class designed around area control in a game more thats about area contol...but it must be because conditions are so strong, am i right?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?Because condi mirage is/was broken not because conditions are. If power mirage was broken you would see threads about it and it only instead of threads about power damage being too high in general. I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be?I think you're reaching pretty hard for the reason for these things to be happening to be due to conditions being OP instead of the actual reasons.Why are the Condi forms always on bots?I've seen warrior, guardian, and revenant bots. They definitely were not condi builds.It is popular because it is easy, forgiving, and effective.Since you seem keen on generalizing, answer this: of all 27 specs in the game, how many have a viable condi build in Conquest?Define viable in conquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Crab Fear.1624 said:@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Because its what it lends it self to by design. Condi reaper was pretty much killed so it could live. Besides this is a silly questions. Its like asking why reapers play power instead of condi. Plus look at WvW. Why are most scourges there power/hybrid? Could it be that in zerg play cleanse is so abundant that condi is weak its near on irrelevant and its the only way to eek some damage out? But conditions are so strong why would they?I mean..I could just as easily ask why do people play power holo instead of condi holo? Conditions are so strong it would make sense to right?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Well according to Anet all necro specs actually see decent representation. In soloQ i would hedge my bets on people playing reaper and core necro over scourge since they are far more durable and less reliant on support.When it comes to more organised play its because not only does it corrupt more boons on average but it is also easier to support while proving more support itself. Plus by design scourge is pretty strong as a class designed around area control in a game more thats about area contol...but it must be because conditions are so strong, am i right?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?Because condi mirage is/was broken not because conditions are. If power mirage was broken you would see threads about it and it only instead of threads about power damage being too high in general. I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be?I think you're reaching pretty hard for the reason for these things to be happening to be due to conditions being OP instead of the actual reasons.Why are the Condi forms always on bots?I've seen warrior, guardian, and revenant bots. They definitely were not condi builds.It is popular because it is easy, forgiving, and effective.Since you seem keen on generalizing, answer this: of all 27 specs in the game, how many have a viable condi build in Conquest?Define viable in conquest.An interesting question. How about at least 33% of players at or above 1200 skill rating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 I was also thinking about the two most problematic condi classes can also dump a large chunk of their kit while stunned. They can also cause this damage in more than one place (aoe still) at the same time.What power spec can do that? Serious question, and no it can no be a power version of the same spec lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @saerni.2584 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Because its what it lends it self to by design. Condi reaper was pretty much killed so it could live. Besides this is a silly questions. Its like asking why reapers play power instead of condi. Plus look at WvW. Why are most scourges there power/hybrid? Could it be that in zerg play cleanse is so abundant that condi is weak its near on irrelevant and its the only way to eek some damage out? But conditions are so strong why would they?I mean..I could just as easily ask why do people play power holo instead of condi holo? Conditions are so strong it would make sense to right?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Well according to Anet all necro specs actually see decent representation. In soloQ i would hedge my bets on people playing reaper and core necro over scourge since they are far more durable and less reliant on support.When it comes to more organised play its because not only does it corrupt more boons on average but it is also easier to support while proving more support itself. Plus by design scourge is pretty strong as a class designed around area control in a game more thats about area contol...but it must be because conditions are so strong, am i right?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?Because condi mirage is/was broken not because conditions are. If power mirage was broken you would see threads about it and it only instead of threads about power damage being too high in general. I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be?I think you're reaching pretty hard for the reason for these things to be happening to be due to conditions being OP instead of the actual reasons.Why are the Condi forms always on bots?I've seen warrior, guardian, and revenant bots. They definitely were not condi builds.It is popular because it is easy, forgiving, and effective.Since you seem keen on generalizing, answer this: of all 27 specs in the game, how many have a viable condi build in Conquest?Define viable in conquest.An interesting question. How about at least 33% of players at or above 1200 skill rating?That wasn't the question. The question was how many specs have a viable condi build. The answer is: not many. Maybe 3.5? Scourge, Mirage, Daredevil and Weaver(hybrid).The rest are largely unplayable even though they clearly had builds designed to be played as condi. Eg. condi ranger, condi engi, condi warrior... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayce.5632 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 So 4 out of the 27 specs running condi. Since this mob-train has no brakes, might as well keep this discussion going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 @coro.3176 said:@saerni.2584 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@Sigmoid.7082 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:@coro.3176 said:@Crab Fear.1624 said:Power play.You must attack, and each attack must land to do damage. You must be in range for your attacks to land.They can dodge your attack. Whatever the damage was, is done.Your attacks can be ineffective when you are weakenedBlind affects your attackIf they move out of range for subsequent attacks, they will not land.There is no power effect that reduces healing effectivenessIf you run away, you are not doing damage.If you are dead, your damage is done.Condi play.You must attack, but if your loaded attack lands one time, your damage will tick for it's duration unless it can be cleared. If you landed a good one, now you can kite if needed while the condis chew them away.They can dodge your attack, the ticking damage can be cleared if it landed. Resistance can stop your ticking attacksBlindness affects the initial attack, if the attack is not blinded, the ticks will not be stopped by blind.If they move out of range for subsequent attacks, at least the condis will still tick.Poison reduces healing effectivenessYou can run away and still be doing damage.You can die and still be doing damage.Would power be consider offensive play, and condition be considered defensive play?Which one seems more passive?This is silly. Most of those arguments apply to both power and condi.The problem is, you're viewing condition ticks as separate attacks. They are not. That's why you can't blind them. That's why they keep doing damage even when you're not in range or your opponent is dead or defending or whatever.Condi ticks are the damage from the initial attack that is being applied over time.Instead of thinking that you're getting hit by lots of free attacks for each condi tick, you should instead be thinking that you got hit by a huge condi burst and you are going to take the damage and maybe die unless you have some mitigation (heal, cleanse, resistance).They ARE the same argument, but in some cases the outcome is different.Why do people play condi scourge instead of power scourge?Because its what it lends it self to by design. Condi reaper was pretty much killed so it could live. Besides this is a silly questions. Its like asking why reapers play power instead of condi. Plus look at WvW. Why are most scourges there power/hybrid? Could it be that in zerg play cleanse is so abundant that condi is weak its near on irrelevant and its the only way to eek some damage out? But conditions are so strong why would they?I mean..I could just as easily ask why do people play power holo instead of condi holo? Conditions are so strong it would make sense to right?Why is scourge more popular than reaper in pvp?Well according to Anet all necro specs actually see decent representation. In soloQ i would hedge my bets on people playing reaper and core necro over scourge since they are far more durable and less reliant on support.When it comes to more organised play its because not only does it corrupt more boons on average but it is also easier to support while proving more support itself. Plus by design scourge is pretty strong as a class designed around area control in a game more thats about area contol...but it must be because conditions are so strong, am i right?Why is condi mirage more popular than power mirage?Because condi mirage is/was broken not because conditions are. If power mirage was broken you would see threads about it and it only instead of threads about power damage being too high in general. I think there must be a reason, even though I have seen that BOTH can be effective.What could that reason be?I think you're reaching pretty hard for the reason for these things to be happening to be due to conditions being OP instead of the actual reasons.Why are the Condi forms always on bots?I've seen warrior, guardian, and revenant bots. They definitely were not condi builds.It is popular because it is easy, forgiving, and effective.Since you seem keen on generalizing, answer this: of all 27 specs in the game, how many have a viable condi build in Conquest?Define viable in conquest.An interesting question. How about at least 33% of players at or above 1200 skill rating?That wasn't the question. The question was how many specs have a viable condi build. The answer is: not many. Maybe 3.5? Scourge, Mirage, Daredevil and Weaver(hybrid).The rest are largely unplayable even though they clearly had builds designed to be played as condi. Eg. condi ranger, condi engi, condi warrior...I was just addressing what level of play made something viable. A third of above average players using condi amulets seems like a reasonable threshold for viable.Is it good, top tier or best? Harder to say and personal skill matters here. The best players may be able to make many builds work but that doesn’t mean the builds they are running are the best for the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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